A Deep Dive into Masculinity, Politics, and Society

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Ultimately, the vision I would
like to see in the world is a

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place where men feel like they
can live.

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They can be who they really are.
They can live that life without

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any fear or without any shame.
And I think, to be honest, I

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think if we can get to a place
like that, if we can get close

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to a place like that, I think we
live in a very.

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I think our society looks
really, really different.

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Yeah.
Hello and welcome to Real Men

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Feel.
This is your host, author, coach

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and healer Andy Grant.
We have conversations that most

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men are not having, but that all
men and the women who love them

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can benefit from.
My guest today is Ross Morales

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Roquetto.
Ross was the lead organizer for

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White Dudes for Harris, which
drew more than 200,000

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participants from all 50 states
for the Harris Walls campaign.

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Ross is also the Co founder of
Run for Something, a piece of

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democratic infrastructure
designed to recruit and support

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the next generation of young,
diverse and progressive

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political leaders.
I've been wanting to talk with

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Ross since my first introduction
to him last summer, Not really

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about the election, but more
about how politics and society

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need to give a shit about men.
Stay tuned for a deep dive into

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political organizing, the
weaponization of fear, the

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current crisis for men, and what
we all might be able to do about

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it.
Let's do it.

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Hello Ross, and welcome to Real
Men Feel.

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Hello, I'm really happy to be
here.

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Yeah, we connected due to your
leading of White Dudes for

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Harris, which feels like a
million years ago but was

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actually just last summer.
And you know, I still proudly

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have my White Dudes for Harris
hat.

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I really thought it would age
better than it has.

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So.
You've Co founded Run for

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Something and launched White
Dudes for Harris.

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I really want to know what what
sparked your interest in

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political activism and
leadership to begin with?

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Yeah, I mean, like it was a
long, it's, it was a long time

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coming.
I when I was a, when I was

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really little, my parents used
to make me go to church every

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morning.
I'm from Texas originally.

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I grew up in sort of like a
relatively rural part of

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Houston.
And when I, I don't know, I

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don't really remember exactly
what age, let's say like 11-12,

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something like that.
My parents came to me and they

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said, you can stop going to
church, but you have to spend

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Sunday morning eating breakfast
with us.

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And I was like, yeah, it's a
great deal.

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I don't have to get dressed up.
We can stay in the house.

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Like, sounds way better.
And that was awesome.

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And then every Sunday, basically
from that point until I

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graduated high school, we would
have breakfast on Sunday

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mornings regardless of whether I
was hungover or not.

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And we would watch Meet the
Press.

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And that really started that,
that really sparked my interest

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in politics from really early
age.

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My parents are both pretty
political people.

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They weren't like, they didn't
do anything in politics, but

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like they just, they cared and
followed politics quite a bit.

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And then when I was in high
school, I had a government

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teacher who made all of us
volunteer on a campaign that was

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like, for that was like part of
our grade.

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And I, I, I loved it.
I caught the bug really quickly.

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I went from, you know, like
organizing for somebody who was

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running for U.S.
Senate at the time to organizing

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my classmates to go work for
that person, to organizing other

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people at other high schools to
go work for him, to organizing

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people at like, colleges to go
work for, like, volunteer for

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him.
And I didn't even know

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organizing had a name at that
point.

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But I just caught the bug and it
was sort of off to the races

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after that.
And so it was organizing that

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got you interested.
Was there ever interest in you

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running for office yourself?
If you had asked me back in high

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school, college, maybe right
after, I would have said, yeah,

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like maybe someday I'll run for
office.

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You know, I've been doing this
work now for about 20 years.

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I've worked with candidates at
every level of the ballot, you

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know, whether it's Congress,
president, other statewide

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offices, down ballot folks.
I think, I think I just know too

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much now.
You know, I think running for

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office requires, I think it
requires an ignorance sometimes

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about how hard it's going to be.
And I know exactly how hard it

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is.
And I know all the ways in which

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it is hard.
And so, you know, maybe when I'm

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older, like sixties, 70s and I'm
like in, I'm like sort of like

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ready to retire.
Like I'll go, you know, like run

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for like county Commission or
something on like a single issue

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and be kind of like crotchety
and old.

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But, you know, right now it's
it.

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I don't think it's in the cards
for me.

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What has to call to you to you
want to help organize for

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somebody's campaign?
You know the thing, it's really

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interesting because the first
thing when I go and sit down

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with a candidate, whether it's
somebody running for mosquito

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board in Florida or President of
the United States, I asked them

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the exact same question, which
is why are you running for

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office?
And it's really, you'd be

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surprised how rare it is to find
a candidate who really does

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truly know their why at the very
beginning and can really

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articulate it.
And a candidate that knows their

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why gets me extremely excited.
And you know, like you can, you

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can tell when it's BS and when
it's not BS.

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You know, you just like, you get
the, you get the vibe, you know,

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I think like, if you think back
to the 2020 primaries, some of

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the candidates that didn't do
super well didn't have a clear

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why.
Some of the candidates that

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never really got over the top
didn't really have a strong why

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Joe Biden did, whether you know,
you can argue about whether that

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was the right one it for the
moment or not, But he had a

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really, he had a really
compelling why, which is, you

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know, he was like the person to
restore the soul of the nation.

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And people believed it and they
believed that he believed it.

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And I think that's almost more
important than people believing

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it themselves.
Like, I think it's it's it is

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more, it is almost more
important for the candidate to

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believe it because if they
don't, you end up with a

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rudderless campaign.
And I could point to 100

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campaigns at every level of the
ballot, including presidential,

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that had no clear articulation
of the why.

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And because of that, they just
floundered.

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So white dudes for Harris was a
bold name.

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Could have gone, you know,
either way, perhaps.

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So what inspired that framing?
Was it a tough decision to run

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with that?
And what were some of the

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reactions you got at initial
launch?

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You know, I think hindsight's
2020 and I actually, for what's

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worth, I don't, I don't, I don't
regret the name.

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I think the name is the right
name for the moment.

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I think we needed to, it needed
to be a little bit on the joke.

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It needed to demonstrate some
self-awareness.

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I think for people to like
really feel like they could be a

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part of it.
It couldn't be too, too serious,

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but it needed to be like serious
enough.

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And then, you know, I think at
its core, I think we also needed

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to be specific.
We weren't just dudes for

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Harris.
Like we were very specifically

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trying to organize white men.
And I think we got a lot of

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people who really wanted us to
be like dudes for Harris.

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So like, why do you got to be
white dudes?

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And it's like, well, because
actually we need to organize

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white dudes.
Like that is a thing that has to

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happen.
And, you know, I think at the

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time, you know, the black men
had also just done a call and

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there were like the API folk men
were also going to do 1.

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And so like, it didn't feel
authentic to just be like dudes

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when it was really white dudes.
And that was, that was sort of

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though that was like the core
reason why we went with that

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name.
And, you know, like people, you

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know, blanched a little and at
the beginning and the thing that

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I consistently said at the time
was like judges by our actions.

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Like, you know, if you don't, if
you jump on the call and you

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don't like what you see, feel
free to critique away.

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And, you know, people jumped on
the call and they saw something

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really authentic and powerful,
even in ways that I did not

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anticipate myself when we were
originally organizing it.

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And, you know, it took off and,
you know, it was, it's, it's

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been a, it's been a little bit
of a lightning rod here and

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there.
And I'm very happy to jump into

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it.
I, I feel no defensiveness about

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it at all.
I think like some of the things

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we did were really good.
I think some of the framing that

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the right ended up using like to
sort of combat it demonstrated

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that they were a little bit
afraid of what would happen if

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the left started to win men.
We didn't we actually, I mean,

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if you look through the exit
bowling, it turns out that like

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she did a little bit better with
white men than Joe Biden did,

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you know, in the previous in the
previous election.

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So it just turned out that we
needed a lot more.

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I think in a in an election that
was going to be decided by, you

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know, like what we in the
business call a field margin.

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So like, you know, something
that like a really good

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organizing program could
potentially overcome so like

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point, you know, like less than
a percentage point.

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So .3%, you know, like in an
election like that, I think that

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kind of stuff makes a
difference.

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It that wasn't, that wasn't the
election we got we, it was, I

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know this is off message.
People sometimes yell at me when

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I say this.
It, it was not a close election.

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I don't believe that Trump had a
mandate.

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I think, you know, that's that's
why people often tell me I'm off

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message.
I do not think it was a mandate

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for Trump.
I also it was not a close

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election.
Democrats have no business

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losing the popular vote.
That was the first time we'd

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lost the popular vote since
2004.

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So it had been 20 years since we
had lost the popular vote.

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So it wasn't close.
It sucks.

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It is what it is, and here we
are.

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And here we are in the year of
our Lord 2025.

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Yeah.
So going back to that first

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white dudes right here is called
I think it was July 2024 and I

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think you said something, was it
July?

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Yeah, it it, I mean like we're
coming up on a year soon, Yeah.

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You said something like needing
to stop the right wing and MAGA

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from defining masculinity.
So what does what does

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reclaiming masculinity from from
MAGA mean politically and to you

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personally?
I think it's, I think that's

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really, I think it's a really
complicated, that's the, that's

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the question.
It's a really complicated one.

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The from where I sit and my
thinking, you know, if you would

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ask me this in like, you know,
October of November of 2024, my

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answer I think would be
considerably different than it

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is, you know, today.
I think that the right has done

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an incredible job of weaponizing
like different forms of

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masculinity and they've done a
really good job of weaponizing

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resentment, like the politics of
resentment and fear and cynicism

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that go along with all those
things.

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And that I, I don't think that
through political means we

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actually can like win people
back.

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I just, I don't think it's
political.

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I think we have a really deep
set of issues that men are

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facing right now in our country
and also across the world, to be

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totally honest.
And that is that's like a huge,

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I think that's a challenge that
that's like a challenge of the

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next 20 years.
And I think we can either keep

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going down the road that we've
been going down or we can try to

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pick another one.
I think what that means that's

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sort of a really fundamental
level is we need to completely

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rethink the way that we interact
with men.

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And I think we need to
completely rethink the way that

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folks think about politics in
these contexts because men are

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not going to be able to hear
what the left has to say until

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the problems that they feel like
they're facing have been

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addressed.
Social isolation, like 8.

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An ideology around masculinity
that that that keeps people

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boxed in and not able to be who
they really are as people.

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00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,000
You know, a new economic
contract that has developed over

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00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:06,080
the last 30 years, while at the
same time people were being told

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all you need to do is work hard
and like you'll be able to like

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00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,080
get by.
And that's just fundamentally

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00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,800
isn't true anymore enough.
Like, you know, the social

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00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,120
contract about, you know, all
you, your, your only role and

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00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,720
value in society is as a
protector and a provider living

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00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,400
in a society in an economy where
like that isn't as needed as it

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once was and where people don't,
where some folks don't even want

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00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,800
that.
And So what do you do when you

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00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,320
have a generation, generations
of people who grew up with those

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00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,960
with those American mythologies,
and then they get into the world

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00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,240
and they've either see those
seen those things erode around

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00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,480
them over many years, or they
just get out into the world and

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00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,200
they turn out not to really be
true.

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00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:59,480
And I think all of those things
create a really toxic Stew that

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00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:04,640
makes it really, really easy to
scapegoat women, feminists,

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00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:08,720
immigrants, whoever it the them,
the other.

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00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,320
It makes it really, really easy
to scapegoat people.

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00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,400
And I've heard a lot of I've had
a lot, I've heard a lot of

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00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,640
discourse from people who
honestly on on a lot of things I

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00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:25,600
like respect quite a bit talking
about how feminism is the reason

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00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,360
that like men are feeling the
way that they're feeling.

250
00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:31,560
And the me too movement is the
way is the reason.

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00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,920
And those that that is
fundamentally not the case.

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00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,880
Those things did have
unintended.

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00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,520
Some of those things have had
unintended consequences.

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00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:44,840
And also to point to feminists
and be like, it's your fault

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00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,560
that men feel this way is
totally ridiculous.

256
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:56,400
And like many, I actually think
it belies a thing that we have a

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00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,120
really hard time doing on the
left, which is holding 22

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00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,000
conflicting truths together in
tension with one another.

259
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,280
And I think like, you know, we
live.

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00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:15,960
Donald Trump winning
fundamentally changed a lot of

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00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,680
things, and I think one of the
things that we need to do as a

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00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,240
movement and we have an
opportunity to do as a movement

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00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:28,480
is to completely rethink the way
that we interact with these

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00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,400
types of truths.
So I know your parents were

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00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,080
politically aware people.
What was your upbringing around

266
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:40,680
masculinity like?
Was was it suck it up be stoic

267
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,120
or was it more open grounded?
It's really interesting.

268
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,920
I I've thought a lot about this
over the years and I've been on

269
00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:53,520
my own exploration around
masculinity over the last couple

270
00:15:53,520 --> 00:16:01,520
of years and I like masculinity
was never really explored by my

271
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,800
parents, but my parents are
really interesting people.

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00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,000
Like we, I grew up in Texas.
I'm basically the only person in

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00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,720
my family to grow out, grow up
outside of New York, New Jersey

274
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,080
or Connecticut.
My entire family is from like

275
00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:17,280
Staten Island, Brooklyn, New
Jersey and some folks up in

276
00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,920
Connecticut.
And you know, my, my mom grew up

277
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:26,640
in Staten Island and she grew up
in a housing project and you

278
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,960
know, is like was a really
talented artist.

279
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,040
She could sing, she danced, she
acted, she's extremely creative.

280
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,600
She like was a shoe designer for
many years.

281
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,400
She currently makes jewelry for
like for her living.

282
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:47,280
You know, when my dad grew up,
like right, my dad was my dad

283
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,360
never actually got to know his
like father.

284
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,000
His father died during World War
2.

285
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,240
So his like grandmother got
pregnant.

286
00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:00,080
He went off to World War 2 and
then he died over in over in

287
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,520
Europe.
So there wasn't my father.

288
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,720
I would say in some ways you
could say like was like a like

289
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,119
traditionally masculine guy.
He like didn't talk that much

290
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,480
about his feelings.
He had a lot of rage inside of

291
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:19,720
him.
He was like, he was pretty

292
00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,200
stoic.
There was like, you know, as

293
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:28,520
much as my mom was sort of like
my mom is like a very like a my,

294
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,040
my mom like is a feminist and
like taught me to be a feminist.

295
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,480
There were also, you know, like
still traditional gender roles

296
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,520
in our home.
Like my dad worked.

297
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,040
My mom sort of like did a lot to
raise me.

298
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,640
She also worked, but you know,
like it was she was sort of the

299
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:49,080
primary caretaker.
I think what is really

300
00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,520
interesting about them though,
is that like there were also

301
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,720
places where my dad just like
wasn't a typical dude.

302
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:59,080
He like he's an engineer.
So he likes to fix that.

303
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:00,960
He or he is good at fixing
things.

304
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:02,880
He does not like to do that
stuff.

305
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,200
He taught me how to do some of
it, but he just like never he

306
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,080
never really wanted to do it all
that, that badly.

307
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,320
He never was like, he never, we
know.

308
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,960
We never talked about how like,
oh, yeah.

309
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,040
Like, men don't cry.
He cried, You know, he actually

310
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,120
was like a little softy.
He would cry like any time

311
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:27,400
there's something sad in a
movie, you know, It's just so I

312
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,560
saw a lot of traditionally
masculine things from from him

313
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,400
that I don't even think he was
aware of.

314
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,200
But like he also didn't really
fit in a box either.

315
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,720
And then, you know, I like, I
also grew up in like Texas and

316
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,040
there were a lot of just like
dudes dudes around me.

317
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,520
And that was like a lot of, you
know, like a lot, some of my, a

318
00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,720
lot of my friends went dirt
bike, like were dirt bikers and

319
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,440
like, you know, like shoot gun,
you know, it's just like

320
00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,880
traditional dude stuff.
And for what it's worth, I like

321
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,080
many of those things.
I never like got the hang of

322
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,480
dirt biking.
I, I just, I wasn't good at it.

323
00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,280
And but like, there's lots of
things that like we did that I,

324
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,440
I really enjoyed.
And but yeah, it just, I, I

325
00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:13,960
would say like a little bit of
column A and a little of column

326
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,840
B.
Was there any sort of defining

327
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,080
moment for you that made you
realize like we need to give a

328
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,640
shit about men more?
Yeah, I had a friend who I grew

329
00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,880
up with and like we were very
close in middle school, in the

330
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:35,520
beginning of high school.
He ended up, he ended up going

331
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:42,440
down like a pretty dark path.
He was, you know, he ended up

332
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,760
with like problems around
addiction.

333
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,040
He ended up with problems around
domestic abuse.

334
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,200
He ended up in jail for a little
while and he ended up committing

335
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:56,760
suicide or sorry, taking his own
life in his early mid 20s.

336
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,520
And I really thought a lot about
that.

337
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,600
I thought a lot about it over
the years.

338
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,400
And, you know, a thing that I
don't think a lot of people knew

339
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:15,120
about him is that he was he was
gay or at least bisexual and.

340
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,320
I think to a significant, I
think to a large extent, he just

341
00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,600
didn't know what to do with
those feelings and the world

342
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,720
that he lived in and the world
that he grew up in that was not

343
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,680
acceptable.
And it like led him down a

344
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,280
really dark path.
And he's not that story is like

345
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,760
is is really specific in this
case, but it's an extremely

346
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,200
common story.
You can replace the individual

347
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,640
details in there and you know,
it applies to millions of people

348
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:50,880
across the country and really
like really being an exploration

349
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,240
around him.
My own masculinity over the last

350
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,800
couple years has like really
like led me to this place where

351
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,440
like we, we need to, we just
like, we need to get roll our

352
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,840
hands up and fix it and no one
is going to do it for us.

353
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,040
I think this is the thing that I
feel really strongly about is

354
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,520
like, it's not women's job, you
know, to like go in there and

355
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,040
work with men.
It's like our job to figure this

356
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,160
out.
And they can't, I think, like,

357
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,320
they can be helpful.
They can be allies the way men

358
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,680
are allies, you know, around
like dismantling patriarchy, all

359
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,360
sorts of things.
And also, like men have to do

360
00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:29,760
this work and we have to roll up
our sleeves and get it done and

361
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,280
we have to do it sort of by any
means necessary at this point.

362
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:38,640
I think that the there is a
crisis around masculinity,

363
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,160
around men.
And if we choose not to do

364
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,120
anything about it, we are in for
really, really dark times, I

365
00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:48,480
think in the next 1020 thirty
years.

366
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,680
Well, that's pretty frightening
for all the people that already

367
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,480
think we're in dark times, so.
That we are.

368
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:59,200
I mean, you know what the 2016
election taught?

369
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,120
Actually, no.
The 2016 election in COVID

370
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:06,080
taught me a really valuable
lesson, which is never ask the

371
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,640
question, can it get worse?
The answer to that question is

372
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,720
always yes.
It doesn't matter how dark the

373
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,760
hole you're in is.
It can always get deeper if you

374
00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,280
just if you keep digging.
So, you know, we shouldn't be

375
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,560
asking that question.
It can absolutely be worse than

376
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,320
it is right now.
How do you talk to men who've

377
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,760
been pulled deep into the MAGA
culture in in a way that engages

378
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,480
them and doesn't like just try
to shame them or something like

379
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,920
that?
I think the first thing that you

380
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,400
said is like part is like a core
part of what has to happen,

381
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,920
which is like we can't be, we
like can't make people feel

382
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,120
ashamed of who they are and what
they think.

383
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:51,320
And I think the other piece of
it is a thing that is a core

384
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:58,720
part of my organizing philosophy
is that in order to organize a

385
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:03,840
group of people, one thing has
to be present for sure.

386
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,880
But in an ideal world, two
things are present.

387
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,120
The 1st is you respect the
people you're organizing.

388
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:14,400
I think that has to be present.
The second is I, I believe you

389
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:16,400
should love the people you're
organizing.

390
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:22,400
And if you can't, if you can't
respect and or love the people

391
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,680
you're organizing, you should
not do it, full stop.

392
00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,680
And I think that's the place we
need to come from.

393
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,080
It cannot be, we cannot be
coming from a place of

394
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,520
judgement.
It cannot be coming from a place

395
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,920
of shaming.
It doesn't mean you're not going

396
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,200
to hear things when you're
talking to people that like

397
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:40,160
really offend your
sensibilities.

398
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:45,040
The reason that you need to come
from a place of love and respect

399
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,360
is because when those moments
happen, you need to be able to

400
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:52,280
go back to the why, the reason
that you're doing this work.

401
00:23:52,720 --> 00:24:00,720
And we can't organize men and
try to make men's lives better

402
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,560
for the sake of winning
elections.

403
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,320
We can't do it for the sake of
women.

404
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,000
We can't do it for the sake of
other people.

405
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:13,120
We actually have to do it for
the sake of men and making their

406
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:16,040
individual lives better.
And sure, does that mean if you

407
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,360
do that work, other things might
happen?

408
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,720
Yes.
And you cannot do that work with

409
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,960
integrity if you do not love
those folks, if you do not

410
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,600
respect those folks, if you were
not doing it for the right

411
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,600
reasons.
And The thing is, people can

412
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,400
tell when you're not doing it
for the right reason.

413
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,160
You can people can tell when you
don't respect them actually.

414
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:40,000
Like I think the Democratic
Party is an incredible example

415
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,000
of that.
People can tell that a lot of

416
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,120
Democrats do not.
Voters can tell that a lot of

417
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:49,720
Democrats don't respect them.
It comes across in everything we

418
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,080
do, whether it's television ads,
whether it's our dramatic mail,

419
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,040
how we talk to voters, the
language we use when we talk to

420
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,560
voters, the language we use when
we talk about voters.

421
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:07,520
They can tell even even in they
they just and they don't always,

422
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,640
they can't always put words to
it, right.

423
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,400
Actually, most of the time they
can't put words to it.

424
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:18,040
But the vibes just feel off.
And people are sometimes willing

425
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,520
to overlook the bad vibes if the
vibes on the other side feel

426
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,440
worse.
And so like, sure, can we win

427
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:29,160
elections in individual years,
even though people kind of know

428
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,760
we don't respect them and they
don't really like us that much?

429
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,360
Yeah, we can.
And also in a vibes election

430
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:42,600
like 2024 was, we get our asses
kicked because it was all about

431
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,400
the vibes.
And people were like, yeah,

432
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,080
Democrats just don't really, we
don't really like Democrats that

433
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,600
much.
And we kind of like Donald

434
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,000
Trump.
We don't like dislike him.

435
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,520
We kind of think he's a clown.
You know, like, a lot, if you

436
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,760
talk to a lot of Republicans,
they will say things like, yeah,

437
00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:01,160
he's kind of a clown, but like,
he's at least going to fight for

438
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,040
us.
And I think at a really core,

439
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,040
fundamental level, people do not
feel like we are going to fight

440
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,400
for them.
And they do not feel like we

441
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,160
respect them.
And I think those are some of

442
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,760
the reasons why, like, you know,
like, people like our policy,

443
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,880
when you poll voters
consistently over and over

444
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,720
again, they're like, yeah, those
policies sound great.

445
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,160
We love socialist policies.
Like, if you don't call it

446
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,000
socialism and you just, like,
tell them what it is, they're

447
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,000
like, oh, we fucking love those.
Those are awesome.

448
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,080
Like, give us like, free
college.

449
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,360
Give us like, free health care.
Give us all the free shit.

450
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:40,840
But like when you ask them if
they like us, no, they do not.

451
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,120
They do not like us and they
don't believe that we're going

452
00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:44,800
to do the things that we say
we're going to do.

453
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,000
Because when we get in power, we
don't do the things we say we're

454
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,320
going to do.
Yeah, that's definitely one

455
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,600
thing Trump has always had going
for him.

456
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,520
He he'll do what he said he was
going to do, so you can't really

457
00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,160
be surprised with what's
happening.

458
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,600
There was this whole back and
forth where I saw recently

459
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:08,760
where, like some Democrats were
like, yeah, like we, you know,

460
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:11,240
like you didn't know that Trump
was going to do all these

461
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,600
things.
And then Trump like, got up

462
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,560
there and was like, yeah, yeah,
you did.

463
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,720
Like, I talked about this during
the everything I'm doing, I said

464
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,080
I was going to do during the
election.

465
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:23,520
And sure, like, he didn't give
detailed policies, like, but he

466
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,960
told us what he was going to do.
He told us he was going to

467
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,760
deport a bunch of people.
He told us he was going to

468
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,880
completely take a Wrecking Ball
to the government.

469
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,600
You know, he told us he was
going to do.

470
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,560
And he did the same thing in
2016.

471
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,960
People keep being like, oh, we
didn't.

472
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,920
We didn't know.
It was like, yeah, he told us.

473
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,600
And then you know what also,
Hillary told us that what he was

474
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,720
going to do, she just repeated
the things he was saying.

475
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,440
And she's like, yeah, he's going
to do these things.

476
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,240
He he means it.
And then he did.

477
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,480
Now he's not effective or then
he wasn't effective.

478
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,520
He's been more effective this
term, unfortunately.

479
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,760
But in 2016, in 2017, he wasn't
particularly effective.

480
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,040
And that was, you know, a saving
grace.

481
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,840
But that's not the case this
time.

482
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:07,800
Right.
Yeah, very different now.

483
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,680
Do you have any personal
theories as to why so many men

484
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,320
do feel disconnected in today's,
you know, political and cultural

485
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,440
climate?
Yeah.

486
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,280
I mean, I think it gets back to
some of the stuff we talked

487
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,560
about a little bit earlier.
I think an economy that like

488
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,480
doesn't work for a lot of
people.

489
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:31,560
You know, there's in this, this
isn't this isn't new.

490
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,840
There's like a sort of strain of
anti intellectualism that has

491
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,280
like existed across the American
experiment.

492
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:44,160
And so as, you know, like the
economy became a more service

493
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,440
oriented one where, you know,
you needed a college degree and

494
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,600
now sometimes now often more
than a college degree to like

495
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,600
get the highest paying jobs.
You know, like as that started

496
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:01,160
to shift folks, men largely have
like been not really been

497
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,600
encouraged to go to college that
that sort of like strain of anti

498
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,880
intellectualism has sort of like
seeped its way into sort of like

499
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,240
the way we think about
masculinity.

500
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,200
We think like men's work is like
work with the hands and look, it

501
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,960
can be like it does not
necessarily need to be, but it

502
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:20,880
can be.
And for many people that is how

503
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,200
it feels.
And there's just less of those

504
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,080
jobs than there used to be.
It's why the tariff stuff with

505
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,640
Trump sort of like appeals to
like a a large swath of his base

506
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,160
that are mostly men in the
Midwest who like want, you know,

507
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,920
an industrial economy to come
back, which probably will never

508
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,000
come back.
And the unfortunate thing and

509
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,400
the thing that is like gross
about what Donald Trump is doing

510
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,760
is like he he very well knows
that those people are not going

511
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,760
to get those jobs.
Like the jobs that are that

512
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,200
they're going to create are if
we create manufacturing jobs in

513
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,920
America, it's going to be fixing
the robots that build the

514
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,120
things.
Like it's it, you know, we still

515
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,720
build some stuff, but like it's
not people working with their

516
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,400
hands putting cars together
anymore.

517
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,640
Like if you've seen like an auto
manufacturing facility, it's

518
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,640
mostly robots putting the cars
together like at this point, so,

519
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,520
or an assembly line.
So like, you know, it's, I think

520
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,240
there's that.
I think the, I don't like to use

521
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,680
the term toxic masculinity
because I, I actually think what

522
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,640
that really means is patriot,
what that really is, is

523
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,480
patriarchy.
And like, you know, that's a

524
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,720
word we don't, you know, we
don't use because it's got, you

525
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,960
know, like feeling people have
feelings attached to it.

526
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,960
But like, that's what it, that's
what it really is.

527
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,560
And it's also also, I think it
sort of like masks, the fact

528
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,360
that like masculinity just means
different things to different

529
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:41,760
people.
And there's actually nothing

530
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,280
inherently wrong with like
people feeling like it means a

531
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,440
certain thing to them.
I think where it becomes

532
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,400
problematic is when it becomes
destructive like both to the

533
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,080
individual and it often it often
becomes that and to and then to

534
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,400
other people.
And so, you know, you've got

535
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,160
like a strain of masculinity
that is like a virus and it is

536
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,520
extremely disruptive.
And it's really like about

537
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,200
destroying like the individual
individuality of the person.

538
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,960
And then once the individuality
has sort of been like destroyed,

539
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:20,520
that person becomes angry and
like enacts that as like

540
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,000
different forms of violence on
other people.

541
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,920
And that violence can look a
million different ways, but

542
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,880
that's sort of like the core of
what it is.

543
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,360
It's rage, it's violence.
It's like, it's all of those

544
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,320
things sort of like combined
together.

545
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,960
I think like our culture
reinforces those things.

546
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:43,080
Our culture tells men the way
that they need to be, and that's

547
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,560
upheld by both men and women.
And I think that's something

548
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,880
that's like absolutely worth a
conversation about that.

549
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,880
You know, like something that my
wife and I often say is like the

550
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:53,920
patriarchy lives deeply within
us all.

551
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,400
And, and that is all like, it is
everybody to some extent.

552
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,720
You know, like if you talk to a
lot of men, they'll say things

553
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,160
like, well, the people in my
life, like say they want me to

554
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,640
act this way, but when I do ACT
that way, they don't like it and

555
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,600
they kind of react weird to it.
And so like that has taught me

556
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:22,360
to like not show my feelings or
to like, not share how like this

557
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,840
thing was, you know, how this
thing made me feel or whatever

558
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,680
it is or be more sensitive
because like people like it when

559
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,200
I'm like the strong rock and I
never complain.

560
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,360
You know what?
I think these myth, I think the

561
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,480
American mythology is largely
falling apart around us right

562
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,040
now.
And I think like that means it's

563
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,280
probably long past due to like
re rethink what what our

564
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,640
mythology is.
And I think that creates a deep

565
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,040
well of cynicism.
And I think that really deep

566
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:53,400
well of cynicism is super easy
to weaponize.

567
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,280
And I think when you combine
everything together, it creates

568
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,760
a series of conditions that just
like, you know, that lead to

569
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,160
someone like Trump and actually,
for what it's worth, could lead

570
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,480
to a populist on the left, too.
I think, you know, Bernie

571
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,000
Sanders, I think like people, I
think a lot of men responded to

572
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,480
Bernie Sanders from that same
place, which is why after the

573
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,640
2016 election, you heard like a
little bit about it.

574
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,320
It never really took off.
But you heard some rumblings

575
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,920
about the fact that there were
Trump, Bernie voters.

576
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,000
And folks are like, I don't
understand how that's the case

577
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:30,000
in it.
It's anger.

578
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,480
Like, it's anger at the system.
It's anger at like the way that

579
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,360
people's lives have turned out.
It's anger at the fact that,

580
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,960
like, we were people were
promised one thing and life has

581
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:45,800
given them something different.
And, you know, Bernie was

582
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:51,000
offering like free stuff, you
know, as the as the sort of like

583
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,440
solution to the, you know, like
the oligarchs are, you know,

584
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,600
like taking over and they want
to screw you.

585
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,520
And I want to give you a bunch
of free stuff, you know, like

586
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,160
traditional populism and, you
know, like it was effective.

587
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,720
And that's that's what that's
how people were really sort of

588
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,400
perplexed that like anyone could
vote for Bernie Sanders and

589
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,000
Donald Trump.
But they're sort of like strains

590
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,199
of the they're they're strains
of the same thing.

591
00:34:13,199 --> 00:34:16,920
And they're tapping into some
like the a similar anger that

592
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,920
exists out there.
And so it was, it was surprising

593
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,600
to me at first.
And when I like actually thought

594
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,080
a little bit more about it, it
started to become a little bit

595
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,400
clearer.
So, Ross, I know you've been on

596
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,600
sabbatical and no, no, you,
you've been doing a lot of

597
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,639
thinking about what do men need
and, and perhaps organizing

598
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:35,480
them, helping them, whatever it
might be.

599
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:39,480
But if you had unlimited
resources, what would you like

600
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:45,239
to put in place for men?
I think we need, I think a

601
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:50,199
couple of things need to happen.
I think we used to have like

602
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,840
society used to have
institutions and structures that

603
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,560
allowed men to get into
relationship with themselves,

604
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,480
each other and their communities
themselves.

605
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,600
Is has always been a little bit
harder.

606
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,840
But like for sure, like other
men in their sort of like

607
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,200
broader community, other else
clubs and like they were just

608
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:15,240
it's the Boeing alone story.
I think we need to we need to

609
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:20,560
start to rethink how men can get
back into relationship just like

610
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,360
full stop.
And I think to me, that's where

611
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,480
it all starts because so many
people are isolated and they

612
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:33,440
find gross corners of the
Internet as like, places to be

613
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,880
with others.
And it's not because, you know,

614
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,800
if you hear people's stories of
radicalization and sort of

615
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,240
deradicalization, it's the same
story told over and over and

616
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:45,440
over again with often the exact
same details.

617
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,920
You know, it's I was feeling
lonely.

618
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:56,480
I was feeling displaced.
I was feeling like I didn't

619
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,920
belong anywhere and then like I
saw a thing online and I sort of

620
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,000
like went and like there was a
community there and I didn't

621
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:09,520
like what they were saying
necessarily, but like they made

622
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:15,480
me feel like I belong somewhere.
And so I think there's a couple

623
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,040
of there's there's a couple of
things.

624
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,320
One is the relationship 1 is a
sense of belonging.

625
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:25,480
And I think that I think that
relationship and to with other

626
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,160
men and in being in community
with each other helps create

627
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,960
those things.
And then I think something that

628
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:37,320
I think talking to both folks
who work in religious

629
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:41,880
communities and are in the
military, something is like has

630
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,880
like sort of like popped up.
That was an additional piece to

631
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,400
that I hadn't really thought
about before then, which is the

632
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,640
idea of being in service to
something that's bigger than

633
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,120
yourself.
And I think we need to I think

634
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,280
as a society, we need to create
those types of spaces where

635
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,360
people feel like they can be in
service of something bigger than

636
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,360
themselves, where they can go
and get into a relationship with

637
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,440
each other.
And we can do it.

638
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,240
There's a gajillion ways to do
it.

639
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,600
You know, we can build gyms, we
can, you know, like we can build

640
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,200
things that people we can build
places for folks to go game.

641
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,760
So instead of gaming alone, they
can go game with other, you

642
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:26,480
know, like there is this can
look a million different ways.

643
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,240
And I think it should because
people have different interests.

644
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:32,440
And what we should really be
doing is looking at the things

645
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,880
that people are interested in.
And then we should be looking to

646
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,360
build the spaces that allow them
to be together.

647
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:45,520
And once people are on, I'm
really interested in working

648
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,440
with the people who don't even
know that they need to go on a

649
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,520
journey, you know, like the
people who are already on a

650
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,880
journey like me and can even
like articulate the idea of a

651
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:58,120
journey.
Those people are like working on

652
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,120
themselves.
And like there's, you know,

653
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,680
there's light at the end of the
tunnel for those people.

654
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,840
It's hard.
It's really fucking hard.

655
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,880
And it's definitely not a linear
journey, but there's, there's

656
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,040
hope there.
I I'm really interested in the

657
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,800
people who like haven't even
conceptualized that there's a

658
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,280
journey to be on.
Yeah, they're they're in the

659
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,920
box.
The box is all there is.

660
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,160
This is life.
That's who needs to be reached

661
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,120
and like this is how it will
always be.

662
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:32,760
I think like the hopelessness I
did, I did my undergraduate

663
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:37,160
thesis on hopelessness as it
relates to violent crime in post

664
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:42,320
Katrina, New Orleans and the the
state of Louisiana does a lot of

665
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,080
things wrong.
But one thing that they do

666
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,120
that's very cool is they have
something called Louisiana

667
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:51,360
Health and Population Survey and
it actually surveys people based

668
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,760
on their they one of the series
of they have a whole part of it

669
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,120
that asks people questions that
get out the idea of

670
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,360
hopelessness.
Like how hopeless do you feel?

671
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,040
How like how long have you felt
this way?

672
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:08,120
And unsurprisingly, when you map
it in areas where people feel

673
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,040
hopeless, there are increased
incidences of violent crime.

674
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:21,320
And you and when you look at the
places on the map where violent

675
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,360
crime occurs, where there is not
hopelessness, sort of like in

676
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,400
the area, you can often, like in
the survey map that violent

677
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,720
crime back to where like this
sort of sense is tracked that

678
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:34,560
that individual who committed it
lived.

679
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,440
And it also turns out that it is
almost always in that area.

680
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:43,920
And I think right now a lot of
people don't feel like there is

681
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,280
hope.
And that's a really, really

682
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,240
dangerous place for the country
to be.

683
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:53,080
So I think like, we got to like,
rebuild and we got to build new

684
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,760
institutions.
We've got to like rebuild the

685
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,560
things that, like existed
before, but we've got to do it

686
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,960
in ways that work for 2025, not
in the ways that worked in 1960.

687
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,760
What's one thing you wish more
men knew?

688
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:19,560
Oh, themselves, to be honest, I
think my ultimately like my

689
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,320
vision.
And this isn't how I would say

690
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,280
it if I were to like sitting
across the table from like, you

691
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,280
know, like somebody I grew up
with.

692
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,320
But like ultimately the vision I
would like to see in the world

693
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,480
is a place where men feel like
they can live.

694
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:38,880
They can be who they really are.
They can live that life without

695
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,760
any fear or without any shame.
And I think, to be honest, I

696
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,040
think if we can get to a place
like that, if we can get close

697
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,960
to a place like that, I think we
live in a very, I think our

698
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,640
society looks really, really
different.

699
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,080
Yeah, for sure.
Ross, what's the best way for

700
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:56,880
people to connect with you?
Follow.

701
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:57,920
See everything that you're up
to.

702
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:00,960
Yeah, I'm on it's, I'm not on
Twitter.

703
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,280
Well, I like technically I'm on
Twitter, but I don't, I'm not on

704
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:11,040
there.
I'm at I think I'm on threads at

705
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:17,400
Arroqueto and they think I'm on
blue sky at Ross Maroc at some,

706
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,000
you know, I might actually be
wrong.

707
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:21,960
So also send it to you
afterwards that like truly I'm

708
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,720
like, wow, I'm a little it's
it's been 3 months.

709
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:28,400
I took three months off, so I'm
a little.

710
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:30,760
Figure out where you are, Yeah.
But you didn't.

711
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,000
Yeah, you can.
You can find me on social media,

712
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,400
probably on Instagram at
Armocetto and Blue Sky at Ross

713
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,640
Maroc and Threads at Armocetto
too.

714
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,080
Ross, I really want to
appreciate this.

715
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,320
Again, this is AI think it was
December.

716
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,600
We first talked and but I've
I've wanted to talk to you ever

717
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,120
since last July and you did not
disappoint.

718
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:52,800
I look forward to whatever
you're called to do next.

719
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,720
And again, thanks so much for
being here.

720
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,960
Thanks so much for having me I'm
this was this was really fun.

721
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,080
Thanks for joining us everyone.
Please visit realmenfield.org.

722
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,040
See the blog post for this
episode, which I have all the

723
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:05,640
various links and resources
discussed.

724
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:08,400
Wherever you're discovering Real
Men Field, please subscribe,

725
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,920
follow, like, share this episode
with someone, post a review or

726
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,000
comment, and until next time, be
good to yourself.