Betrayal Trauma Isn't Something You Just Get Over

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Shame is the fear of abandonment
or rejection.

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So shame tells you the lies that
it tells you is to hide because

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you're not loved.
Is to over perform because

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you're not loved, Is to fight
back because you're not loved.

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So many of our us spend our
lives trying to get love by

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keeping people at a distance.
It never works, ever.

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And yet we stay trapped in it
because we're scared that we

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might find out that we're not
loved.

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So why would I turn around and
be authentic?

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Field.

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I'm your host, Andy Grant.
At Real Men Field, we drop the

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masks and have conversations
that most men are not having

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anywhere else.
Today we're talking about

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betrayal, shame, trust, and what
real recovery looks like after a

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relationship rupture.
My guests are Brandon Patrick

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and Tyler Patrick, better known
as the Therapy Brothers.

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They're licensed clinicians and
brothers who help individuals

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and couples heal after
infidelity, addiction, betrayal,

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trauma, and broken trust.
Together they've spent decades

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in trauma and addiction work,
and they host a long running

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call in show where real people
work through their shame,

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trauma, betrayal, and recovery
in real time.

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If you've ever wondered why men
hide, why trust feels so hard to

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rebuild, and what true
accountability actually sounds

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like, this conversation is for
you.

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Let's do it.
Hello guys, and welcome to Real

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Men.
Feel you guys work around

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betrayal, addiction, shame,
trauma.

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So what drew each of you into
that work to begin with?

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Well, I had an older brother who
is awesome and started going

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into like therapy and becoming a
therapist and I had no idea what

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I was doing with my life.
I, I was just kind of

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floundering and trying to figure
it out.

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He kind of pushed me to look
into it a little bit and, and I

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just realized, wow, like a, a
career where I, I could do

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something meaningful.
And I, I actually found that I

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was kind of made for this.
I, I, I'm actually decent at it.

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And so just one step led to
another.

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And yeah, I've just been blessed
to be able to work with Tyler

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and, and really dive in and help
people with some of the most

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difficult issues.
For me, Andy, it started when I

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was serving a service mission
for my church and I was spending

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some time in the inner cities of
Baltimore, MD, and ended up

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living next door to a group of
like boys that lived in the same

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complex as us.
And we did some service and we

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got to know them a little bit.
And over the course of getting

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to know them, I came to realize
that not a single one of those

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boys actually knew who their
father was.

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And something about that hit me
so hard.

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And I knew I needed to work with
families, I knew I needed to

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work with couples, and I knew I
needed to work with men and

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boys.
So that's what set me in motion

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to go into the realm of doing
therapy work.

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And then of course, my own life
problems got in the way of all

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of that too.
And I, I had a whole bunch of my

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own recovery work that I needed
to do with the very things that

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we work with, with some trauma,
some betrayal, some shame.

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In the process of trying to
climb out of my own holes in

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darkness, we kind of narrowed
into a place where both Brandon

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and I crossed paths again.
He decided to go get his degrees

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and become a therapist too.
And then he was the one who

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actually said we should
specialize in this thing.

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And he didn't even know that I
was climbing out of the hole of

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that thing.
And so, and so we kind of ended

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up joining forces again and, and
coming together that way.

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So that's the fast version of a
much longer story.

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So, so Brandon, you got into
this, less so from personal

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experience, and it just happened
to coincide with your brothers.

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I mean, it's, it's a long story,
but back, back in the day,

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because we're, I'm an old man
now, there was a lot going on in

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terms of the Internet and
pornography, sex addiction and

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at church.
They were really beating the

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drum of like, porn's bad, stay
away, stay away.

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And yet, like all of my friends
and everyone I knew were getting

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involved with it or had been for
a while.

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So I was just looking at it like
go like we got to do something

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about this that kind of led me
into that path.

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And, but, but then it was like
it led to other things of

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couples struggling with
infidelity and broken trust and

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what addiction really is.
And, and so as I got just more

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and more exposed to all of that
stuff.

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That's what I mean, I found I
was kind of built for it.

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I got, I, I tried to not do
this.

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I tried to like, I'm an
entrepreneur and I'm going to do

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this and I'm going to do that.
And God was just like, Nope, you

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go back.
Nope, Nope.

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And I was like, wow, I don't
want to like I I'm not going to

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make enough money or this is
burning me out.

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And God was like, you go back.
So one thing after another after

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another, I finally succumbed to
like, yeah, this is what I do.

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And then at that time, Tyler and
I like really started crossing

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paths.
And one thing that was a God

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wink was him was was watching
his work and what he was doing.

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And I just thought, man, I get
to work with him and we can

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support each other through this.
Maybe that's a another reason

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why I stay in this arena.
So, so it's a long story, but,

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and there's a lot more to it
than what I just said, but

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there's definitely a reason why
I'm in it.

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It's more than just like, hey, I
was trying to figure out what to

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do, you know?
And in my experience, most guys

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don't reach out for help until
they've hit rock bottom.

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And is that your experience as
well?

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What?
Why do you think that is?

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Percent that's it's interesting,
especially like my own personal

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life, for sure that's been the
case.

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And then the, the typical
process that we have when people

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come into our office and are
wanting help and there's been a

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like, so let's say the, a man
who's like struggling with

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whatever that is addiction or
infidelity or something else.

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They typically are brought in
after there's been some kind of

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a disclosure or a discovery or
something and it kind of blows

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everything open again.
And I, I think that that's kind

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of built into us because
obviously nobody likes to be

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vulnerable and be and risk being
judged or rejected or seen as

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weak or inadequate.
And, and so most of us don't

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like to do the reaching out
because of that.

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Even with Brannon and I's story,
I didn't tell Brannon what I was

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going through when I was in the
depths of it.

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I, I started to tell him after I
could see light at the end of

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the tunnel and knew that I was
going to be OK and still

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lovable, right.
And, and so I think there's that

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deep, deep fear of weakness and
unlovability that if it gets

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exposed, that's that could be
the most devastating thing to

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us.
I might answer it a little like

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I, I agree with everything Tyler
just said, but men, they reach

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out for help sometimes because
they're compelled to, not

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because they've, they've hit a
rock bottom.

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But men, men who are really
ready to change are the ones who

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have hit that rock bottom.
So like Tyler was saying, like

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sometimes a spouse will drag a
man in and he's externally

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motivated.
And then as we dive into this

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recovery work, like he just
doesn't really have his heart in

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it.
He doesn't really do it.

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He doesn't because he hasn't hit
that rock bottom.

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He just got busted.
And so when they when they do

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hit that rock bottom, like I'm
thinking a guy I'm working with

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right now, like he's so humble
and he's so ready and he's so

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willing and his addiction has
kicked his butt for years.

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And and like he, he's like an
awesome client for us.

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I mean, because he's he's follow
through, but but that's not

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always the case.
In fact, it rarely is.

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Like a lot of times they're
somewhere in the in between

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motivation wise, and sometimes
that external motivation can

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turn into internal motivation
and sometimes it doesn't so.

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It, it seems like women can see
that things are going to get

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worse and they seek help and
they'll, they'll drag their

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partner with them.
But yeah, they said that the guy

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won't play full on unless like
he's truly exhausted, that he

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can't do it himself, that really
everything is, is, is about to

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fall apart or is falling apart.
Tell her I love what you said

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that like I, I always know it's
fear underneath all that, but

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fear of not being lovable.
I I don't think I've heard it

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put that way.
Yeah, I think that's at the

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core, that's the all of the
human experience, right?

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We're wired for a, for
attachment, for connection.

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And I think especially sometimes
when you're in a relationship

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and especially I think, I think
men feel this a lot where

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they're supposed to be the
strong, steady, stalwart one in

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a relationship.
And if they show any form of

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insecurity or weakness, then
that's that's really indicting

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to the overall sense of self,
right?

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And that's not necessarily true.
It's the lie that we sort of

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succumb to a lot of the time.
And you would know this in the

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world, in the realm you live in
here, that when men finally find

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a safe space to actually allow
themselves to really be seen, it

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adds a whole depth of quality
and richness to the to their

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lives, and it actually allows
them to step more fully into

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their own real power.
And I've seen you talk about

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betrayal as very similar to
PTSD.

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So what happens in like the the
typical mind when when trust is

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destroyed?
Well, it's all about safety,

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right?
So like, we as humans are hard

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wired to, to try to feel safe in
our life.

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And so if you're, if you think
about why do we get in

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relationships?
We get in relationships because

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deep, deep down we think it's
good for our survival.

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It's what we naturally
instinctually think it's good

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for our survival.
So I get in a relationship

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because it's good for my
survival and I'm feeling loved

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and connected to that starts
kind of breaking down and then

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all of a sudden BAM, I get, you
know, betrayed.

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And that relationship goes from
being an asset for me for my

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survival to a liability.
Now it's a, it's a source of

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pain, a source of fear.
And the betrayal trauma is

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complex trauma because it's,
it's not just a one time event.

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There's a lot that goes on
around it in terms of knowing

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whether you're safe or not.
And so it is, it's complex

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trauma and it's, it's a very,
very much the process of it is,

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is the same process as healing
trauma.

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I'll say to that too.
Just add to that that a lot of

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people think of betrayal or
infidelity as just this one

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thing where there was an action
in one realm of life, the sexual

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part of life or whatever else,
emotional part of life, and they

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don't realize that it has
threads into everything else.

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And so a betrayed partner
experiences the whole rug being

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pulled out from underneath them
in terms of not just safety in

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the relationship emotionally,
but it throws questions into

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what else don't I know?
How could God have had me decide

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to marry this person in the 1st
place?

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So there's a spiritual
component.

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Who can I talk to?
There's a social component.

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And so the whole world gets
rocked.

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And so partners often experience
the very symptoms that you see

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with PTSD, loss of sleep,
flashbacks, intrusive images,

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hyper vigilance, needing to
like, watch and look for

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everything, trying to control
things because that's exactly

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what's happening on the internal
Organism of the body is danger,

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danger, danger, right?
What's?

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The most understood aspect when
people say oh just get over it.

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That's that you said the most
understood.

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Yeah, I think we, this, this
happens.

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Yeah, this is, I think this is
part of it.

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This is, this is something
that's really hard.

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So and there's almost a a rhythm
that has to happen at or for the

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healing to take place.
Because if you go to a

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professional or a church leader
or a best friend or somebody and

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what they say is just get over
it.

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What they're missing is that
there is a whole process that

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goes into just getting over it,
right.

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And so when they come into
therapy here, we actually have

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to establish safety,
understanding and grounding with

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somebody so that they know they
have a safe place, they know

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they have someone they can
trust.

224
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,720
They know they have someone who
will listen to them and support

225
00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:50,360
them and can validate their
experience.

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00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,200
And then once they feel those
things, then they're open to

227
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:57,600
receiving some messaging that's
saying, hey, how do we help you

228
00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,520
move forward?
Because this is hurting you,

229
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,880
right?
But just get over it.

230
00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,840
That's what, that's what the
first thing that comes out of

231
00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,840
the person who's done the
betraying often says is, look,

232
00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,840
I've changed.
It's been 3 weeks or it's been 2

233
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:12,360
weeks.
Like we're different now.

234
00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,280
Like, why can't you just why are
you bringing it up again?

235
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:17,960
Like, and there's this pressure
on the person who's been hurt to

236
00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,000
get better faster than it takes
for a grieving process to take

237
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,280
place because there's grief
inside of the betrayal.

238
00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,000
So we've already talked about
fear and I, I think I've read

239
00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,440
that you guys have referred to,
you know, being Mr. Nice Guy as,

240
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,280
as fear and disguise.
Can you expand on that?

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00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,720
You bring up Mr. Nice Guy, we,
we, we deal with Mr. Nice Guys

242
00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,680
all the time and think about
like, why, why, why, if we, if

243
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:51,360
we treat sex addiction, why do
Tyler and I often come across

244
00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,080
Mr. Nice Guys?
And it's, it's an interesting

245
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:59,120
thing that not all sex addicts
are Mr. Nice Guys, but many are.

246
00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:04,440
And the, if you understand a Mr.
Nice Guy, you understand that

247
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:10,200
when they go be nice, they're
actually trying to consume a

248
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:15,040
woman for their self worth.
They're trying to please her so

249
00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,360
that he, he feels good about
himself.

250
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,320
And if you think about sex
addiction, it goes down those

251
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,120
same lines.
Oftentimes I want to consume a

252
00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:29,280
woman to feel good.
I want to use sex in order to be

253
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,200
OK.
And Mr. Nice Guys, they

254
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:39,840
masquerade as good guys who are
constantly manipulating, seeking

255
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,800
love, seeking validation in
consuming their partner.

256
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:49,200
And it makes the partner feel
crazy.

257
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,720
It's I, I don't feel safe.
I don't feel connected.

258
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,920
I don't want to connect to him
and yet he's doing everything

259
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,440
right.
He's everyone thinks he's the

260
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,040
best guy ever.
Like I so why do I just get this

261
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,800
gross feeling when I think about
like really being vulnerable,

262
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,880
really being intimate with him.
And it's because there's not

263
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:12,880
real honesty there.
There's not real connection

264
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,600
going on because that
manipulation is happening.

265
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,480
Performing in order to keep you
close to me but I'm doing it so

266
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,480
that I can extract my value from
you rather than offering my

267
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:27,680
strength to you and by by the
way like this we're talking

268
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,880
about Mr. Nice Guys like you're
looking at one right now Andy.

269
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:35,040
Like it's like, Brandon, I can't
tell you how many times Brandon

270
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,000
has told me like, hey, Tyler,
like stop being Mr. Nice Guy.

271
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,560
Like knock it off, you know?
So but yeah, that's so.

272
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,320
So the partner then is left even
further off the edge of the

273
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,880
Cliff there because now
everybody else around them is

274
00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,000
also going like, you're married
to such an amazing guy.

275
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,520
Like look at how he does this
and this and this and this and

276
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,400
this and, and in the background
she's like, I know he's like

277
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,280
amazing, but but also like if
you only knew.

278
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,280
Like it.
Like I feel like I'm being

279
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,680
extracted from rather than
offered to.

280
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:10,320
So what are some signs that a
man is performing Mr. Nice Guy

281
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,920
versus it's real integrity of of
being nice?

282
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,640
He'll lack boundaries.
He he won't like really

283
00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,560
understand his values and stand
in those even when it's

284
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,680
difficult, even when there's
conflict around that.

285
00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,240
He he'll have a hard time with
real empathy with his partner.

286
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:36,000
It'll, it'll be fake empathy.
So when, when she's like really

287
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,800
triggered into something
difficult and it, if it has to

288
00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,200
do with him, he'll do a really
bad job at holding that space

289
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,160
for her because because he's
lacking the strength to sit in

290
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,440
the discomfort.
So the Mr. Nice Guy's always

291
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,120
trying to make sure that it's
comfortable, that it's good,

292
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,520
that it's OK.
I could go on and on.

293
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,280
There's, there's a lot of signs
of Mr. Nice Guy.

294
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,360
It's actually the more the more
you understand it, the easier it

295
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,520
is to see.
But if you don't understand it,

296
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,160
a lot of people don't see it.
I think it's hard, Andy, because

297
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:14,720
the, the behaviors will look the
same whether it's Mr. Nice Guy

298
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,359
or authentic sometimes, right?
And so a hard part about that is

299
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,960
you have to almost feel the
energy with which those

300
00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,079
behaviors are taking place,
right?

301
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:28,319
So if my wife comes to me and
she says, hey, Tyler, like I'm

302
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,720
having a really hard time with
this thing that went on the

303
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,520
other day, we need to talk about
it.

304
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:35,480
And I hurry and jump up and I'm
like, OK, well, let me hurry and

305
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,240
fix it.
And let's make sure that you're

306
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:41,000
just not mad at me.
If it's that energy, that's what

307
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,320
Brandon's talking about.
I'm not holding my shape.

308
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,640
Whereas if I go to her and I
say, hey, I can tell you're

309
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,760
you're really upset about
something.

310
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,760
And I really want to understand
that.

311
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,280
I'm not sure I'm going to fully
agree with that, but I'm here.

312
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,880
Let's talk about it.
You can feel the energy of I'm

313
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:01,600
for you, but I'm for you.
Like I, I'm also going to be me.

314
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,600
I'm not going to.
I'm not going to sacrifice my

315
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:09,120
values in order to placate you.
Can I, can I just add to this?

316
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,720
So I, I love what Tyler's
saying.

317
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,120
It's an energetic thing.
And you're the king of

318
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:16,240
authenticity.
So like, let's talk about

319
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,720
authenticity, like on a whole
new level, right?

320
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:25,400
Like if, if my wife said to me,
hey, Brandon, I want to go here

321
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,120
for dinner.
What do you think about that?

322
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:30,200
Right.
And I said, oh, I'm chill,

323
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,000
whatever, like, yeah, that works
for me.

324
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,920
And so I go there.
I might really be OK with it,

325
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,880
might be good.
I might try to be convincing

326
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,360
myself that I'm OK with it.
And so I go anyways.

327
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,240
But then in the background, I
got a little bit of resentment

328
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:51,000
going on, a little bit of like,
she always gets her way and I'm

329
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:52,960
just smiling and going along
with this.

330
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,320
So where where does the
authenticity breakdown here?

331
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,560
The initial like, yeah, I'll do
that.

332
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,160
It breaks down because I don't
know myself.

333
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,160
And so like in that moment, my
first thought is I want to

334
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,720
please her.
It's not let me check in with

335
00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,000
me.
And what's my honest truth here?

336
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,640
And so if if I'm automatically
acting in fear to please her, I

337
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,880
might be telling myself I'm
being authentic because I'm a

338
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,160
loving, kind husband.
BS.

339
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,120
If you got that resentment on
the back end.

340
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,360
So you got to come back to do
your own work to be able to say,

341
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,080
like, do I know myself?
Do I trust myself?

342
00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:35,920
And can I be honest in those
moments?

343
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,400
And if I harbor a ton of
resentment, if I got back going

344
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:43,520
on inside of myself, I can sit
here and blame her and blame the

345
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,200
other person forever and ever
and ever.

346
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,400
Or I can say what's breaking
down in my honesty in my life,

347
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,600
in my authenticity.
I have that resentment because

348
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,640
I've lacked that authenticity.
Do you think that's the root

349
00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,000
cause of why men struggle to be
authentic, that the lack of

350
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,280
knowing themselves?
Percent the lack of knowing

351
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,640
themselves and, or I think
there's a consciousness aspect

352
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,880
to that for sure.
And I also think the doubt that

353
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,040
they have about themselves,
they're they're afraid that if

354
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,760
they do expose all of
themselves, then that's when the

355
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,920
rejection comes.
So part of the work we do,

356
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,200
really, honestly, the work that
we do with most of the people we

357
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,520
work with, they come in for one
problem, which is this addiction

358
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,600
or this betrayal or something
else.

359
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,200
But really what it boils down to
and what we really believe is

360
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:39,320
that it becomes a quest to
reclaim your heart through

361
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,680
radical self acceptance.
It's getting to know yourself

362
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,800
and not only know yourself, but
accept and love yourself as you

363
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,720
are.
Yeah, I I can agreement.

364
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,200
I grew up with a lot of suicidal
ideation and depression, made

365
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,920
multiple attempts in my life and
when I could finally like, why

366
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,800
is this?
It was a complete lack of self

367
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,240
love that was the root cause for
that for me.

368
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,200
Right.
So and and all your work around

369
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,760
betrayal.
Is there a most common root

370
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,920
cause that that is there before
a betrayal happens?

371
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,280
Yeah.
I mean it's what it's what Tyler

372
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,680
was just talking about.
What you're talking about it's

373
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,320
it's self rejection.
It's what happens at a really

374
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,880
young age for most people is you
start to lose sense of, of who

375
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,320
you are and then you start
trying to get love.

376
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,440
And, and so I've heard it said
that some, you know, addiction

377
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,840
is somebody's attempt to find
God or addiction is somebody's

378
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,840
attempt to find love.
And what that shows is that

379
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:44,200
there's been a breakdown in them
knowing that they are loved as

380
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,560
they are and who they are.
And a lot of times that's

381
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,720
because of neglect from parents
or their parents addiction or

382
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,680
the, and it can be little T
trauma, it can be big T trauma,

383
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,720
but all of us go through it.
We all have our own forms of

384
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,880
trauma.
And so then we find something

385
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,160
that soothes that.
We find something that we think

386
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,960
takes care of it, but then it
actually drives home the shame

387
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,680
and the cycle just it's a
vicious cycle that goes on and

388
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,680
on.
So if there's been a betrayal in

389
00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:20,480
a relationship and the let's
see, the betrayer is trying to

390
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,960
reconcile, what's the difference
and why does it matter between

391
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,520
an apology and accountability?
That's.

392
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,760
I love this question.
Yeah.

393
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,160
No, it's actually, it's actually
a really good question.

394
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:40,560
I, I think a good apology does
include some accountability, but

395
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,000
but often times here's here's
the issue.

396
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,800
It's back to that self
acceptance piece again.

397
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:49,000
A lot of the time is I apologize
to you to get myself out of the

398
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,640
doghouse, right?
That's like an apology that's an

399
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,160
empty apology is an apology for
me in order to make things

400
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:01,080
better for me.
Whereas accountability with the

401
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:05,840
apology is I see you, I'm trying
to understand how I've damaged

402
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,520
the things that I have and I'm
going to take ownership for

403
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,560
whatever I can, number one, to
fix and which is hard with

404
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,880
infidelity because you actually
can't fully fix it.

405
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,640
And and then and then I'm going
to surrender to the the pathway

406
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,600
of becoming the best person I
can be because that's the best

407
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:25,800
way that we can actually help
heal the relationship and the

408
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,160
trust in the relationship if
it's going to stay together

409
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,560
again in any way.
Accountability and apologies

410
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:35,960
just to say what Tyler said in
in a different way, but it's the

411
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,960
same thing as it's about me
being committed to my own

412
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,760
personal integrity.
It's not about the other person.

413
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:50,120
It's if I, if I messed up, I
need to clean that up because in

414
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:52,760
my integrity, that's not the man
that I am.

415
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:57,400
And so I'm going to go own this.
I'm going to go humbly own this.

416
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,680
And for somebody getting an
apology from that place, if it's

417
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,160
real, it feels real.
Like wow, like versus what Tyler

418
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,400
just said of like, well, I'm
going to go own this because I

419
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,040
don't want you to be upset with
me.

420
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,520
So I'm actually doing this for
me.

421
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,720
I'm not doing it for you.
And you can feel that.

422
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,920
So you both mentioned safety a
few times.

423
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,720
What helps create safety when
hard conversations are needed?

424
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,800
It's it's spelled out right on
your shirt right there, Andy.

425
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,200
It really is, man.
Like learning to step into true

426
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:41,280
authenticity, pairing that up
with empathy when you're talking

427
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,080
with someone that you really
care about and you really value

428
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,440
the relationship with, and then
putting in consistent effort and

429
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,960
action over time is what
actually builds trust in

430
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,040
relationships and where most of
us go.

431
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,440
And this is what the world has
taught us because of what Brown

432
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:59,960
was saying earlier about our
life experiences is, you know,

433
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:03,080
my daughter shared a song with
me called Costume party by Kyle

434
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,880
Hume a few weeks ago.
And it's he's singing about how

435
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,520
they all show up at this place
together and they're all in

436
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,080
their own costume parties.
Like trying to perform for each

437
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,000
other, but never actually fully
connecting.

438
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,760
And and really learning to
actually offer my authenticity

439
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:21,880
to you and learn to trust that
you can hold it even if you

440
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,280
don't agree with me all of the
time.

441
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,080
And I can do the same for you.
That's where depth and safety

442
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,240
and trust really start to get re
established.

443
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,440
And how does shame keep men
stuck and hiding?

444
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,840
You think about shame, if you
think about it through the lens

445
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,000
of the it's shame is the fear of
abandonment or rejection.

446
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:49,040
And so shame tells you the lies
that it tells you is to hide

447
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,240
because you're not loved, is to
over perform because you're not

448
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,120
loved, is to fight back because
you're not loved.

449
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:01,640
And so, so, so many of our, us
spend our lives trying to get

450
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,440
love by keeping people at a
distance.

451
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:09,160
It never works ever.
And yet we stay trapped in it

452
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,520
because we're scared that we
might find out that we're not

453
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,160
loved.
So why would I turn around and

454
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,160
be authentic?
Why would I turn around and be

455
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,760
honest?
And yet through that, through

456
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:25,160
that is where connection is
possible, right?

457
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,640
And so it's a trap that just
goes on and on and, and a lot of

458
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,440
us are just unconscious of it.
It's so automatic that we're

459
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,240
shame screening all over the
place.

460
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,920
We're just trying to get love
unconsciously.

461
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:43,640
And so a lot of our people, Andy
will, will, they'll come to us

462
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,000
and they'll be like, I don't get
why I'm getting the outcomes I'm

463
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,520
getting in my life.
I'm on my third marriage or I'm

464
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,200
depressed all the time, right?
I can't stop my addiction.

465
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,080
I don't understand it.
I don't understand it.

466
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,560
And they'll start to look at
their life and realize, oh, this

467
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,880
is where, this is where
authenticity's breaking down.

468
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,880
This is where shame is ruling
the day.

469
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,960
But it takes some group work.
It takes some like real, real,

470
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,960
like deep, like searching in
order to get conscious of that

471
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,600
sometimes.
And then it takes some opposite

472
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,800
action to the shame to actually
rewrite the stories and heal

473
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,400
from the trauma that's caused
the shame.

474
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,840
They we we get this all the time
in our office where something

475
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,640
has happened.
There is the addiction or the

476
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,520
betrayal or whatever the
behavior is.

477
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,440
And they come in and they're
like, I just did this thing and

478
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,560
I need to fix it or I need to.
And then Brandon and I will

479
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,720
actually pull out with them and
be like, or we want to repair

480
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,240
our relationship.
That's a big one.

481
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,120
We got to fix our marriage right
now or our relationship right

482
00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:45,280
now after there's been broken
trust.

483
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:47,840
Now think about this.
Is that shame.

484
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,880
If you look at these just kind
of, let's just put them in

485
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:55,560
family words together, you got
shame, secrecy, hiding, control,

486
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,160
that's they're all in the same
family together.

487
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,040
And then you get authenticity,
openness, honesty,

488
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,400
accountability.
You hear the difference in those

489
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,440
two sets of words when when you
come in and there's been

490
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,760
betrayal and you want to fix
this, the safety and trust, the

491
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,280
pathway to safety and trust is
through shame resiliency.

492
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,280
Because if you're in shame, you
will not be empathetic, you will

493
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,280
not be open, you will not be
accountable.

494
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,240
And you can't rebuild trust
without those things.

495
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,600
And so shame is actually the
linchpin to complete full

496
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,040
recovery when you're trying to
climb out of a hole like that.

497
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:36,840
You have to learn to be shame
resilient.

498
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,160
So what are some ways of being
shame resilient?

499
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,960
Yeah, as Brandon was talking
about some of those things, it's

500
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,040
learning to become conscious of
your shame and how it works and

501
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,800
how it operates and what fruits
it's creating in your life,

502
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:53,880
right?
Because most of us are

503
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,120
unconscious of that.
It's like, I'm on my fifth

504
00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,240
marriage right now and I can't
see that the common denominator

505
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,800
is me, right?
Like I've got, I've got to

506
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,520
figure out how I've been coping
with life and why I'm, why I'm

507
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,600
in these five marriages in the
1st place, right?

508
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,800
I got to look at the fruits.
I got to become conscious of

509
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,120
what I'm producing in my life,
which is scary and hard.

510
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,600
And that's expanding perspective
basically, and awareness,

511
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,040
consciousness.
And then I need to learn how to

512
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,680
apply compassion to myself and
others for the experience of

513
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,280
being human, because we're all
human.

514
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,480
We all have shame.
We all have, we all experience

515
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:30,400
it.
It's part of the human

516
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,240
condition.
I need to learn as a default to,

517
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,160
to meet myself with curiosity
and compassion.

518
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,800
And then the hardest part, and
this is what Brandon was

519
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,840
alluding to a second ago, is
courage.

520
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,680
I have to have the courage to
start sharing my story to the

521
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,640
right people.
And that's really, really scary.

522
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,520
That's really hard.
That's like stepping into The

523
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,720
Cave of, like, darkness that you
don't know what's on the other

524
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,520
side of, but trusting that
there's a different way of

525
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,080
living on the other side, which
there absolutely is. 100%, yeah.

526
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,360
Cool, so you both mentioned God
a number of times.

527
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,720
How can spirituality support
healing without becoming

528
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,360
bypassing or just another
performance?

529
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:18,160
That's a great question.
We, we have our clients

530
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:22,840
sometimes go through a process,
we call it fire your God, which

531
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,320
which sounds like, whoa, you get
hit by lightning.

532
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,560
This is blasphemy, right?
Fire your God.

533
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:32,760
But really, and, and we could
call it born being born again or

534
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,120
a saved or whatever we want to
call it.

535
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,040
But what it is, is, is the
process of going from this, this

536
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:45,800
like performance based system in
order to find God of like, I

537
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,840
need to earn it.
I need to somehow prove myself

538
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,560
to, to get that to this process.
You know, step three of the 12

539
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,120
steps in, in the dictionary,
recovery is turn your will and

540
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,480
your life over the care of God
or a higher power.

541
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:04,080
And, and in that, if you listen
closely to that step, there's an

542
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,640
element of, of surrender.
There's an element of let go and

543
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,320
let God is, I don't know all the
answers.

544
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,840
I, I, I'm not going to perform
and control my way into God's

545
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,760
love.
I'm going to rest in God's arms

546
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,160
and, and, and just fall in those
arms and I don't know where I'm

547
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,840
going to land.
And that's real faith.

548
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,400
And so I forgot the the original
question, but yes, like to

549
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,720
rediscover a God that will show
up for you when you practice

550
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,880
that faith and through
vulnerability is critical to the

551
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,960
healing process.
Yeah.

552
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,600
So the question about how does
it not become bypassing or

553
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,880
performance, but you're saying
by by letting go, by falling

554
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:48,000
into God, not trying to act,
I'll act like I know God.

555
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,080
Yeah, I want to tee Tyler up
here because in his story, and

556
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,920
I'll let him tell it, but like,
I think we were raised under

557
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:02,080
this system of let me, let me
perform for God, let me perform

558
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,520
and Tyler can tell it.
But God showed up in one of his

559
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,400
darkest moments, right?
So, Tyler, do you want to tell

560
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,120
the story?
If you're OK with me sharing,

561
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,320
I'm happy to I I so relate to
what Brandon was saying.

562
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,240
I was in that boat where I
really believed in God.

563
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:21,320
I saw myself as a Christian God
fearing man and but but the way

564
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,640
that I worship God was that I
will be perfect and as soon as

565
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,320
I'm perfect, God will love me.
But every time I fall short,

566
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,240
that means I'm unworthy or I'm
unlovable or I'm not good

567
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,080
enough.
And we believe we believe in the

568
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,680
concept.
Andy to your question really

569
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,880
quickly and I'll tell the story
is we believe in the need for

570
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,640
the wrestle with something
bigger than ourselves.

571
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,040
And the reason that's important
is because that it's like, think

572
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,200
about shame again.
Shame puts us at the center of

573
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,960
the universe.
And if we're at the center of

574
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,080
the universe and we're messed up
and we can't control the

575
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,600
outcomes, we're screwed.
You know, whereas if something

576
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,720
else is at the center of the
universe, then I can surrender

577
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,040
some of those things that are
beyond my control or beyond my

578
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,360
fixing to something bigger than
myself.

579
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,760
And it shifted for me when when
everything broke loose with with

580
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,080
me and my wife, actually, she
found out about all of my

581
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,360
garbage and I knew she was going
to leave me.

582
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,880
And she did.
And I remember the day she left

583
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,400
me, we were driving to work and
I was in the car next to her.

584
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,680
She had my 2 little girls with
their little pigtails in the

585
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,560
back windows that I could see.
And I was like just wrenched

586
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,320
inside knowing that I'd ruined
everything.

587
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,760
And she passed me, went to
leave.

588
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:33,920
She went to stay with her
parents for a while.

589
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:39,520
And when I came home that night,
I was so spent and I was still

590
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,160
worshipping this God of like,
how could a God love me when

591
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,960
I've just ruined the most
important people in my life?

592
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,800
I walked into my house, I fell
on the front room floor.

593
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,200
I couldn't even get to my
bedroom.

594
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,680
And I just in a different way
than I'd ever had before, was

595
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,560
just like, I don't know where
else to go, God, like wherever

596
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,080
you are, whoever you are, like,
I don't know where else to go.

597
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:08,760
And in the moment when I felt
the least lovable and the most

598
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,719
broken, I had this experience of
being filled with warmth and

599
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,480
love.
And in my head I was like, how

600
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,880
could this be possible?
Like this isn't what I've been

601
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:20,040
taught.
This isn't what I've lived my

602
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,199
whole life.
The last thing I should be

603
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,000
feeling is warmth and love right
now.

604
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:30,480
And yet it was that moment.
And then in the years past, I

605
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,080
remember when I was doing my
practice.

606
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,840
Sorry, one more story then I'll,
I'll, I'll keep it brief.

607
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,600
But when I was doing my
practice, I went home from work

608
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,239
one day and my wife was like,
hey, Tyler, do you ever tell our

609
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:44,199
story to any of your clients?
And I was like, no way.

610
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,480
Of course not.
I don't tell our story to my

611
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,920
clients.
And she's like, well, why not?

612
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,719
Like that's, that's the best
part of you.

613
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,040
She's like, you're not that
smart.

614
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,159
Like, you know, the best thing
you have is your story.

615
00:34:55,639 --> 00:34:58,200
And so I said, well, OK, I'll
think about that.

616
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:00,640
The next week, I went to a
women's group that I was

617
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,120
running.
These were all women who had

618
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,080
experienced the very betrayal
that I had done to my wife.

619
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:13,040
And I told them all my story.
And I got in the car afterwards

620
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,840
and I was shaking and I called
my wife and I cried all the way

621
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,560
home.
Like I think I just ruined my

622
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,160
career.
I think it's over.

623
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,920
He's like, what you do?
I said, I told I told my women's

624
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,640
group our story.
And she said, oh, that's

625
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:27,200
awesome.
I'm so proud of you.

626
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,360
Like nice job.
Like I bet you they love that.

627
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,200
I'm like, I think, I think I'm
not going to have any clients

628
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,960
anymore.
And the next week when I came

629
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:40,240
back, there were like 15 ladies
in the group and three of them

630
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:43,840
were pretty upset with me.
Like they had felt like, hey,

631
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,040
how could you be doing this work
without us knowing that you had

632
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,080
that story behind you?
The other twelve of them were

633
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,160
like, that's the best group
we've ever had.

634
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,040
I trust you more.
I want to work with you more.

635
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,280
I want.
I was like, what?

636
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,040
Like my mind was being blown
open and I was like, how could I

637
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,120
be living a principle of needing
to hide in order to get my

638
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,640
value?
When in reality, the

639
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,480
authenticity is secret
ingredient.

640
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:10,960
It is the thing that leads to
connection.

641
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,520
It is the thing that leads to
power.

642
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,000
It is the thing that actually
allows for love, Deep, deep

643
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,120
love.
And since then, that's been

644
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,000
something that I've tried to
reinforce over and over again

645
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,240
through those kind of shame
resilient things we were talking

646
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:26,160
about.
Yep, Yep.

647
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,960
That's that's what the world
needs to to reconnect everybody.

648
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,400
If we could, if we were all
comfortable enough and loved

649
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,760
ourselves enough and believed in
something else outside of us

650
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,320
enough to be ourselves, then
yeah, that it changes

651
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:39,960
everything.
But you, you.

652
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,040
You mentioned something earlier
I want to get back to.

653
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,440
So what does it really mean to
reclaim your heart?

654
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,720
What do you mean by that?
We ask.

655
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:49,800
I ask.
People, what is recovery like

656
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,680
when we talk about addiction,
what is recovery?

657
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,560
And the, the, the normal answer,
the quick answer I get is, is

658
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,000
usually an answer around
sobriety.

659
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,960
Well, if I, if I'm clean enough,
if I stop the behavior.

660
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,160
And it's, it's very behavior
based.

661
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,840
And the, the reality is, is what
you're actually recovering

662
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,040
something.
You're recovering an

663
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,440
understanding of how much you're
loved and who you truly are.

664
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,400
And so when we talk about
Reclaim Your Heart, we talk

665
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:27,120
about your unique nature, your
unique beauty and like seeing

666
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:33,280
that, like fully realizing that.
And so the only way to do it

667
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,720
though, is, is through stepping
over some thresholds is, is

668
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,640
through practicing some courage
and having some real cathartic,

669
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,640
somatic, deep exponential
healing experiences.

670
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,120
And so, I mean, we take it
pretty far and we, we can get

671
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,240
really preachy here, but we talk
about a whitestone like God

672
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:57,320
bestows a whitestone on you.
And a whitestone is something

673
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,240
that represents eternity and
purity.

674
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:07,320
And we all, I, I believe, are
eternal and pure in, in our own

675
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,080
beautiful way.
And so when you when you get

676
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,480
this metaphoric Whitestone, it's
a, it's a knowing, it's an

677
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:19,760
understanding of who you are.
And when that happens, what

678
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:24,320
happens, Andy, is all these
messages around the shame, those

679
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,800
actually, it's possible that
those are lies now, like, oh,

680
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,040
well, I felt something
different.

681
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,120
I know something different now.
So I'm not just going to live in

682
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,800
this, under this lens of shame
anymore.

683
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,840
I know now who I am.
And that starts to actually have

684
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,440
an effect on everything in your
life.

685
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,880
So that's the, yeah, there's a
full process, a whole hero's

686
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,520
journey that we take people
through to reclaim your heart.

687
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,960
But it's, it's there for, for
the taking, for anybody, I, I

688
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,760
would say.
And and like, if I could put it

689
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,480
into like a single sentence,
it's the process of uncovering

690
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,960
the truth of who you really are
and learning to accept it all

691
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,360
again.
Beautiful.

692
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,360
And we do that through a series
of different activities and like

693
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,120
our curriculum includes some
things, but the principles boil

694
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:19,200
down to that.
So what is the best way for

695
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,360
people to connect with the
therapy brothers Best best way

696
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,440
is.
Reclaimyourheart.org and that

697
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:30,120
would also lead you to places
where you can either contact us

698
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,640
and we'd love to anyone
listening and is like resonating

699
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:33,760
with this.
We'd love to have you either

700
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,200
come on our show or or help you
in any way that way.

701
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:38,560
But Reclaim yourheart.org is the
best way to reach us.

702
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:40,640
And so you mentioned your show.
Tell me.

703
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,000
About that, yeah, it's, it's the
therapy.

704
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,640
Brothers, we've been at it for a
long time.

705
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,360
We had like 530 episodes or
something.

706
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,320
We interview real life people
going through real life stuff.

707
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,440
And so it's an interactive
podcast where people come share

708
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,680
their stories and we we just
help them see some things and

709
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,600
work through some things.
And then we also just talk about

710
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,440
principles of recovery and
betrayal, addiction, recovery,

711
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,600
all kinds of things, healthy
masculinity, femininity.

712
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,040
So it's an awesome show.
So finally.

713
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,240
What is one thing each of you
wish more men knew?

714
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:23,560
I think for me.
What I see, and this is the

715
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,240
tragedy in the world that I live
in and it's the thing that I'm

716
00:40:26,240 --> 00:40:32,520
most I'm most passionate about
is and excuse me for getting

717
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:38,560
using a scriptural verse for a
second, but it talks about the

718
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,200
light that we have and whether
we put it on a hill and shine

719
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:45,600
for the world to see or we put
it under a bushel and hide.

720
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:51,960
And too many men believe that
they're not worthy of shining

721
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,320
the light that they actually
have.

722
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,600
And if you're a man listening
right now, even if you have

723
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,640
struggles, even if you have
weakness, those struggles and

724
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:03,720
those weaknesses, if you'll
treat them with curiosity,

725
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:08,040
compassion, love, courage, they
will actually mold you into

726
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,600
something where you can be a
light on a hill.

727
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,800
And we need more men to step
into an acceptance of their

728
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:20,360
goodness, their power, their
freedom, their love, and, and to

729
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:21,960
spread that into the lives of
those around them.

730
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:24,800
And I would echo.
What Tyler said.

731
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:29,360
I I, I, I really quick.
I had a girlfriend in in college

732
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,280
and she's like, how come you
hang out with like those, those

733
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,480
guys like those?
And, and she was kind of

734
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,760
alluding to like the weird guys,
right, the guys without friends

735
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,760
and stuff.
And, and I was like, I didn't,

736
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,000
it didn't even hit me like what,
what like there?

737
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,920
I, I love that guy, you know,
like, and, and it's true, like

738
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,000
some of those guys didn't have
friends and they didn't fit in

739
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,280
this world very well.
But like I something about the

740
00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,000
Patricks.
We, we can see the goodness in

741
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,920
all people and love them exactly
where they're at and who they

742
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,480
are.
And we can't do that as good as

743
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,920
God can.
But I wish men knew that

744
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:17,080
they're, they are uniquely made
with value and purpose and they

745
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,920
are loved.
And I, I, I say to my clients a

746
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,040
lot like, I wish you would see
yourself the way that I see you

747
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:26,320
because I.
See.

748
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,240
I see.
That you're, you are so

749
00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:33,920
incredible, so amazing.
And so I wish men just just knew

750
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,160
that well.
I couldn't agree more.

751
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,800
With with both those points and
pretty much every point you've

752
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,720
made on the show until now.
And I want to thank you for

753
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:49,520
being examples of good men and
taking that initial risk to

754
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,800
shine your light and be seen.
And yeah, it's it's.

755
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,560
What the world needs.
More than anything is more

756
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:01,000
healthy whole men because I men
want to serve, they want to

757
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:05,080
protect and provide.
And we do that best by knowing

758
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,600
ourselves, by being authentic,
and by shining our light.

759
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,960
So thanks again Brandon and
Tyler the Therapy Brothers, for

760
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,840
sharing all of your insight and
knowledge around betrayal,

761
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,920
trauma, shame, masculinity and
rebuilding trust and the need

762
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,320
for more men to live
authentically, to know

763
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,200
themselves, and to shine their
life.

764
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,520
If this episode hit home for
you, share it with somebody who

765
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,040
needs it.
And remember, healing starts

766
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,320
when we stop hiding.
If you want more than just

767
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,120
listening, if you're looking for
real connection with other like

768
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,640
minded men, join us in authentic
AF.

769
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:44,160
Visit realmenfeel.org/group.
And until next time, be good to

770
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:44,520
yourself.