Breaking Masculine Stereotypes: Embracing Sensitivity

0:00 But when you carry all of it, you rob someone else the opportunity to be of service, you push other people away, you create yourself in a vacuum that I can do it, I can do it. And you train other people to stop offering help. And then you feel like totally a load and defeated, like you have no help. And so I think it's sort of the self fulfilling prophecy that's really ingrained in US. I found myself in that position many times. Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel. This is your host, author, coach and healer, Andy Grant. Please visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me. Riemann Feel has conversations that most men are not having, but that all men and the women who love them can benefit from. My guest today is Ben Curtis. Ben is an award-winning actor, musician, speaker and coach driven by a passion for guiding men toward thriving in all aspects of life.

0:45 He's the visionary Co founder and CEO of Dude Nation, the global startup shaping the future of men's Wellness. Today, Ben and I talk about growing up as sensitive men and explore multiple myths of masculinity. He shares what he sees as some of the biggest challenges facing men today and what he wishes more men knew. Let's do it. Hello Ben, and welcome to Real Men Feel. Hello, Andy, it's a pleasure to be here. Good, I hope. I hope you feel that way at the end. I hope so. If it's any league, like our conversation before and any of your episodes I've listened to, I think I'm going to feel even better just being here in a safe space, right? This is what it's all about, like making safe spaces for men to feel and be real.

1:32 And I really appreciate you and who you are and and your audience listening. I appreciate that. So you are the Co founder of the Dude Nation. So let's start there. What inspired you to create The Dude Nation? Well, that's a great question. I felt like something I had to do. You know the saying if you see something, say something. It was like I saw something and no one else was saying it, and it was to the point where, oh, I'm the one who's supposed to lead that something. But to rewind, I think what really did it is one actually had a really awesome father, A lot of emotional intelligence, encouraged me to feel my feelings. Was the first one in his family to go to therapy. Both my parents carried generations of trauma and depression, a lot of suicide on both sides, a lot of mental health issues.

2:24 Both of them were the first ones to interrupt that and growing up in the South when they did in the early 1900s, It's I'm a miracle, you know, and I, I think it's AI feel so blessed to have grown up in a home that was so open minded in a place that was not. My parents also travelled the world and they taught me to do that. So I started seeing a perspective other than my immediate environment and I saw the hearts of other people. And I've always been a really sensitive kid, really sensitive boy and wasn't always welcome in school, But my mom nurtured that. She saw it, she spoke to it. And even a woman some point in high school said, you know, girls may not find the sexy right now, but if you keep this up, eventually the right woman will respect you for this.

3:09 And I never forgot that. And it really did feel like being sensitive felt like what we used to say in the 80s, a handicap, like something in my way. And it was like something that I didn't that like made me different from everyone else. And I slowly, thank God, I I became a professional actor. I learned how to use it, but I started to see how my sensitivity could be my superpower. And it wasn't really till I got sober, I put down drugs and alcohol. When I really started developing a relationship with men and leading men's work, that's when I saw I'd been a leader for a long time. All the feelings I felt really needed to be dealt with with other men. I'd done them with women and, and that was great, but some of the stuff needed to go deeper. And I, I started learning that only men could hold that. I learned I didn't trust men, especially men that looked like you, just anyone that presented as powerful or what we call alpha.

4:07 And but I felt safe, oddly enough, with gay men. And what I learned is that it took a lot to be gay when I grew up. And my friends who had the courage to come out and be themselves in that world, I was like, whoa, they are. There's nothing but authenticity coming out of that person. And then my father became one of the first openly gay ministers in the South. It was very controversial. And it was something that opened my eyes to that. And I started to see him lead and then he started a support group for men going through sexual abuse and I saw him lead that. And then I saw my dad end a relationship with my mom that wasn't working and lead in a new life there. My parents get happier. And then kind of Fast forward to I've I started getting in the Wellness world.

4:52 I got out of bartending and then yoga and meditation and breath work. And I've been teaching that stuff for about 15 years. And all my clients started to be men. And I realized that was my gift. Oh, they trust me. And they're actually looking for more than just like some yoga. Like, you know, there's clearly they're asking for coaching or some therapy. So I got certified as a coach. I looked into being a therapist. And my therapist was even like, yeah, it seems like you really like being more active and, you know, involved. And I met this coach, now dear friend and mentor. Preston smiles. And he was leading a coaching group, like, fell in my lap or in my algorithms all over my face in the middle of the pandemic.

5:33 And I was like, OK, fine, dude, I'm going to sign up for your work. I've never paid you before, but I did. And one of the greatest things out of that is that Preston encouraged me to start my own men's group, and I did. And so that was the lion's den. It was called. My dad died while I started that and that was the only thing I could show up for. And those men carried me. And I realized I'd been leading sober men's retreats for a decade. But I thought, why is this only have to be for men who identify as Alcoholics or addicts or, you know, going to that maybe extreme? Is there something for all of us? And I didn't see a whole lot of it. I saw stuff for like, our dads saw stuff for kids. But I was like, where's stuff for like us and these multi generations from like 20 to 60 or 70, like, you know, where's that?

6:24 Like how do we connect? We're all told we're so different generationally. So it was just like a whisper. And it started with the podcast. My friend was like, my best friend was like, Ben, we got to talk. I love your work, but the Lion's Den is like one of the biggest sex superstores in the world. So I think you should change your name, as much as I love that you guys roar and all that. And I was like, I feel you, man. I appreciate that. That's great feedback. He's like Brandy 101, bro. I'm just like, real talk. And I said that's why you're my best friend. And I said, like, dude, you're getting well once. And he's like, that's it. Nobody else has that. You're the Dell, dude. And I'm like, but I'm past Dell. He's like, yeah, but if you can tell your story of what happened and how you've reclaimed that work now, I realized dude was a source of shame for me.

7:10 That word, I wanted nothing to do with it and long story, long and to the point like that really just was what there was to do and to have a conversation about it. So if I was uncomfortable with I could reclaim it and started as a conversation piece then became the whole organization. And so dude was kind of there all along. I founded this 10 years ago, but I did. It's when I met Adam Lamb that it kind of all synced together and he helped to get to the next level. And now we've got leaders of all kinds and growing organization, and we really look to be an umbrella for for healthy masculinity for all generations. Very cool. I want to back up to, to kind of growing up sensitive 'cause my experience is very similar to that.

7:56 I, I was a emotional crying kid and as an adult I realized I, I was empathic and that other people's emotion coming through me and I would be bawling and like thinking there's no reason for me to be crying. Why? What is this? And I just thought I was great and even my I've been married, oh goodness, 26 years, 27 years now. I've been married a long time and my wife was warned that when she before she met me that anti sensitive and. I can say my wife thought I was gay. She was like, you're so, you're so there. Like why does why is does a man being called sensitive still? Well, to me it still feels like a put down, like it's an insult. It is you, you said a handicap.

8:44 So do you still feel it that way? If like if I, if I, oh, there's Ben, Hey, you're a really sensitive guy. Does that? Does that, does that feel supportive? Or is it feeling now? I'd be like thank you man, yes I am. Come off world. Look at this dude. In fact, I mean, here's me, Andy. I was wearing my like, Dude Nation shirt. I was on the street corner of Rhinebeck where I live, my dad, and it was the anniversary of his death. I called my best friend Matt Johnson. He lives across the street. He's been with me through this work. And like I said, can we go on a walk? And he was like, what's going on? I was like angry and confused and like, I didn't know what was happening. And then all of a sudden I was like, right, which is sometimes before grief, I don't know what's going on in my body and my brain's just like, what if I don't do? And I just like fell bawling in his arms. And I was like, I feel weird up in the middle of town. He was like, he just started laughing. He was like, do you know how odd bread this is? You're in a pink dude shirt crying in the arms of a large man in the middle of your town.

9:45 He said, thank you, Ben Curtis, I love you so much. And so that's kind of me. I really learned to own it. And I've had enough men thank me for being that. Like, I don't feel like I have a choice, but I've learned to own it. And I think that's the thing. Anything that feels like we're a prisoner of, it's always ourselves. And it's how we create it and what our programming is what we're told. And like, we finally we get older. We're like, oh, I don't have to listen to anybody. Oh, my God, what have I been doing? Why did I give so much? You know, hopefully we make it this long, right? There's a lot of I've had many times when I didn't think I would and I I didn't know how to love myself for a long time and I did a lot of self sabotaging.

10:28 And even though I liked the sensitive side, it wasn't working fully in life. It was like, you know, I was a really successful actor and then I'd have nothing or I was a really passionate lover and then I'd have be alone and I was a really great musician. And then I'd be like suicidally depressed while I'm like touring the country and I'm like, what's going on, you know, And so I realized I had to slow down and thank God, like I got arrested in some big. So there's some interventions along the way. I called them higher power moments. The universe is like, Nope, OK, not too far. That has had me start to look at learning how to re parent and love myself. Even though I had like these great parents. What I did learn is we didn't have emotional boundaries growing up.

11:16 Boundaries was not in my vocabulary till my 30s till not even in like it took me going to al Anon and doing this codependent work to learn that you know, I was angry at someone else in my life for drinking and it turned out I was the one without the boundaries. Like I was the one enabling all this toxic behavior. I was the one choosing to be in relationships over and over again with, you know, and, and, and beating myself up for it. So anyway, there's a lot there that's not really what you asked, but I'm passionate about this topic. I love you, man. I'm so glad there's a sensitive dude like you out there. And that's why I used to put, like, helping, you know, sensitive men. That was it, like 2. I served. And I don't know when to go a little further than that because I realized not many men were able to identify openly as sensitive.

12:04 And it was just like, niching myself down to like, OK, Eddie, bed out there. Hello. It's OK. And I saw your show, and it was really moving that someone made a whole show about it. And I was like that. That's why I need to keep speaking up that guy. So growing up in the emotionally open house and high emotional intelligence and you could be yourself, when did you realize that wasn't the norm for all your other male friends? Pretty early because my dad was a Christian minister and he was like, yeah, go to synagogue. And my Jewish friends are like, what are you doing here?

12:44 And I'm like, this place is awesome. They're like, OK, do you really want to be in Hebrew school? It's like prison for us. But you're having a good time. Great. I loved it. I don't. My dad was such a trailblazer and pioneer and civil rights leader, and my mom worked with refugees and my parents have always worked with people who didn't look like them or come from the same place. So it's just like, Oh yeah, this is. I just felt like it was there the whole time. I felt othered from the fact that my best friend was black. I was so different for that alone in the South and that I was really proud of that and would like fight for him and like that that still was an issue.

13:27 Then it just I was so angry as a kid. That was like, I just I knew it was different. I didn't care and it was it was pretty clear, you know, I think it's tough to survive. Like I was like, OK, I can feel that I've got something these kids don't, but also they can kick everyone's ass and I can't yet. Like they, there's something they're getting. But like, I felt like I just had to make it through high school and then I was going to like at least get to the next part 'cause I could see a lot of superficiality. I, I went to a school that was kind of breeding. We'll see. My school is really great, very religious, a lot of money poured in there, a lot of privilege. Not everyone used that power and privilege as well as other people and a lot of misuse of power and sort of what I felt was enabling that behavior. Not all of those students got reprimanded or went under the radar for it or could get away with it. And maybe leading world companies now. So that was a little like, I don't know if I agree with everyone here.

14:29 And it kind of grew me as an individual, right? So it allowed me to be OK with being different and have, oh, here's the other thing. I think this will answer your question. I just heard it. Thanks, Dad. He was such. He was so bullied as a kid. And one of the greatest tools he taught me was that bullies, like, hurt people, hurt people, you know, he said. Bullies are. I remember he sat me down. He's like Benjamin. Bullies are some of the most scared, frightened little boys you'll ever meet. And they act all beg and tough and they're so scared. And that helped me so much 'cause my dad was not a fighter, I was definitely more scrappy than him. But even like, I wanted to kick some ass, but I was afraid of death or dying or hurting someone or hurting myself. So I managed to stay out of it.

15:17 But I was like, I, I was right there. And bullies scared me and I but I finally learned some compassion and I think that's how I I navigated that. Yeah, it's funny, I I'm only realizing this now. I think my biggest fear of bullies was becoming so upset that I would cry. Like if you would just start beating me up, Oh good, that that's the easy stuff. But if I'm so scared and tense and overwhelmed that I start crying, that was far worse than being bloodied. Interesting. That whatever, no. No, that's important, Andy, that you're saying that. And because there's someone who's who's listening, that's identifying and I'm actually seeing my anger even more like I, I, I'm very clear. I was afraid of my anger as a child. It did not feel safe.

15:58 And I was afraid I would really, really hurt someone because I'd so much pent up anger. And you said something at the beginning of the show. I don't think that anger is mine. I think a lot of it was my parents. I think it was a lot of it. You know, them at each other and at their families and the generations. And, you know, that's why I say like, I hope it's amazing we make it this far. You know, we're just these little bings like absorbing all this stuff and what do we do with it, right? And so if we can create safer spaces for us, like that's that's why. Yeah, we're here today, hopefully. All right, so jumping towards today, what are some of the biggest myths about masculinity that you still see men carrying? One, you said it, that we have to carry it and that we have to carry it alone.

16:47 I still notice myself doing this. I think it's deeply programmed. But like that we're supposed to be the ones to carry it all. And in that it's, it's still training myself to ask for help to not carry it alone. Like it's OK to go create something and make something of yourself and practice carrying some of the load. But when you carry all of it, you rob someone else the opportunity to be of service. You push other people away, you create yourself in a vacuum that I can do it, I can do it. And you train other people to stop offering help and and then you feel like totally a load and defeated, like you have no help. And so I think it's sort of the self fulfilling prophecy that's really ingrained in US. I found myself in that position many times, even like leading my first retreat with a business partner with other people, like still trying to do stuff on my own. And I'm like, I'm going to make the fire. And thank God because I, I said at the beginning, hold me accountable for for delegating, for giving away leadership, for not like robbing people of that.

17:48 So friend tapped me on the shoulder. He goes, Ben. Yeah. What are you doing? I'm making the fire. Yeah, I can see that. Why are you doing that? Because I really want to make the fire. He's like, yeah, I can see that. Don't you think that'd be great for someone else to do? And I was like, oh, thank you, man. Yeah. He's like, I'll go. He goes, no, no, no, you won't. I'll go delegate it. You go do what you need to do next, right. And says that kind of stuff. Right. I don't remember what the question was anymore, but something about present day. Oh, yeah. I mean, I guess myths. Oh, that we that, that our bank account equals our self worth.

18:35 I don't know if it's like a myth, but like, I think it's something a lot of us deal with. It's not real but like it shows up everywhere. That's making I'm definitely this flashback to the movie Wall Street where Martin Sheen is in is in talking to. Is it Charlie Sheen? Yeah, Martin's you know, he's talking to his his son and there there's father and son in the movie too and he's in the elevator. Just he that's perfect acting of he's all calm and like, well, son, I don't know this. And then he just snaps it. And I don't judge a man by the size of his wallet and he just. But I that's the one thing I remember from that movie that that that. Well, exclaimed that, but it's any time talking someone talks about money and worthiness and that's how you're measured. I always think of that. Yeah, Also that you have to be strong, look a certain way to be masculine, That you have to always be the one to lead all the time.

19:25 That we're not good listeners, That masculinity is dangerous. I think that's a myth that masculinity is toxic, is made-up, that masculinity is violent, is made-up. I think those are the big ones right now. It's, it's like uninitiated masculinity, unconscious masculinity, ungrounded masculinity, immature masculinity, right? Just those who haven't been cared for, right? And it's a really great example of one of the four masculine archetypes is the king. And a lot of us know that king energy. And you see all those brands on Instagram that's like rising king kings of our kings were kings. And there's a shadow side of each of those.

20:06 And king energy is great for us to all practice stepping forward into our power. We all deserve to take up space. We all deserve to have something that we like, you know, take care of and like procure and claim. But also. The the shadow side is the the tyrant in the high chair, like telling everyone what to do, like lying, yelling, acting like a baby, you know, and you see this in politics all the time. You see it with any like look at any company with hyper masculinity in it. There's usually some guy that's you'll see a man and a loud voice at a lot of this, you know, and it's like it's overcompensating, right? So if a king is sitting in a throne like he's, he's grounded, he doesn't need to cry.

20:55 And and if he's going to make a decision, he goes and asks this whole, he's a meeting with this whole team, this whole table, this whole board of advisors doesn't do it by himself. And then he makes a decision, right? And if he has the the the honor of having a queen beside him, you better be sure she's part of that, right? So learning how to dance and that that's his working with a feminine so that he can hold his power and be grounded. It's not needing to have the answer bulldoze or or tell anyone what to do any of those things. You know, the other thing I always, I always think about whenever I see the Dude Nation, and please tell me this is true, that you have like an annual gathering where everybody, all the men gather and watch The Big Lebowski.

21:41 Not yet, not yet. I'm working on getting the dudism movement, the dudists out there. We have some dudes, some certified dudes in our group. It's it. I think that's a great idea. I think we're going to have to have a once a year movie night for sure, an outdoor screening. Let's do it. Maybe you can help me organize it. We'll do it on the border of New York in Massachusetts and we'll buy all the dudes. You know, a lot of young generations don't even know what we're talking about. So there's that. And I was I was a little like, I love look, having a great time is a big part of this is overthinking. But I just didn't want to relate us just to being stoners, but we welcome everyone.

22:25 And I like there's so much beautiful philosophy and great wisdom inside of that movie. And and it's and we yell, dude, a lot because one of the things, again, I also teach men not to take themselves too seriously is we have a lot of fun. And also, if we're not like we do have gatherings and I think this is going to be like, yeah, you'll definitely you will be. I'll make sure to have you a part of the council. Make sure we read this by you before we launch it. Oh, dude, it's all right. I love it. Or you and I can go create it. I'm down. Yeah, cool. All right, so. So how does Dude Nation help men embody A healthier masculinity?

23:08 That's a great question. So The Dude Nation helps men embody healthier masculinity by being and creating those safe spaces for us to be able to practice embodying it. So we have classes online so you can dip your toes in, you can come in and practice like the Dude Dojo or Dude school where we're actually taking some of these tools that most of us men deal with and we're sort of wrestling with it together and it's facilitated. But we're also an and same thing with our retreats that do deep dives in person, the Hudson Valley Men's Circle, we're encircling in person, Dude Con, our annual conference. We're encircling online and in person. A lot of what we start everything with is grounding with breath, with body, with heart. So we do a lot of emotional intelligence work. We pull from a lot of different wisdoms and archetypes, and we also have developed our own artificial intelligence, Aiden, which is our AI coaching assistant that any of you can talk to.

24:10 So I'm going to drop a it's 84547 O dude and we're going to put it in, but it's 84547 O dude and he can't do this yet, but you're going to be able to schedule a call for me with him. But it's totally secure, private, something we've trained to help men through personal professional times crisis. It will, you know, can understand if you have a crisis and it's not going to solve it for you. It's going to tell you where to go. It can recognize if you're a different gender or if you are gender fluid and how to have a conversation. But mostly it's like a private, safe, secure space that also ask questions about the dude nation and to get real tools for what you can do and so everything. So that's like a fun example of something we just launched this week.

25:01 But all of our programming, networking and foundational work is around emotional intelligence, so I believe from the inside out. And then also doing some work from the outside and some physical work as well so that we can literally reprogram our bodies. And then we, we have a lot of affiliate partners and friends that we work with. So we're not the masters of everything in a one stop shop for all men. We actually a resource. And so we tune men into different things and we're very nature oriented as well. So I really have. I've learned a lot from the from, I've learned a lot from nature and I really try to give that away to men as often as possible.

25:42 It's a big part of my daily mental health practice and where I learn so much wisdom. So I can tell in everything you've shared about Dude Nation that community is a big part of it. Why do you think community matters so much for men's health? Because it's a basic human need and we are bodies, we are sentient beings. We have nervous systems that Co regulate and they do that for a reason. We're not designed to live in, you know, a bubble or isolation. Otherwise they wouldn't put us in isolation for prison, which we go insane in. So we literally need each other. We're pack animals, we need community.

26:23 We were born in tribe. They say it takes a village for a reason because it does. When you get married, you turn around and look at the people because you're not supposed to hold a marriage by yourself. You're supposed to hold it with all of them. But we forget that and we're like, oh, my marriage isn't working, you know, and you're like, yo, you need to stop and say help and ask from here and here and here and here. And you're not supposed to be able to carry this by yourself Anything right? Your business, Like I've run businesses. I still, no, I don't run any of them on my own anymore, but I've had up to five and I was like professional magician, professional actor. I don't do that by myself either. Professional musician, still do that with my wife, some on my own, but I have accountability of partnership. When you sit in a circle, magic happens. It's the oldest technology.

27:16 My friend David Fulton calls it the OGAI, Ancient intelligence, the technology of a circle. It handles so much. I used to do so much specific programming for men. We're going to do this and this and this and this and this. And when I got out of the way, I was like, Oh my God, it's so much more powerful when I'm out of the way. Same thing in a band. When I create music and then I take it to someone else, I'm like, no, it's got to be like this. Like, that's cool. But when I let them add to it, I'm like, whoa, the less attached I become. It becomes bigger than me. And then suddenly I'm just like, it's closest thing I can relate to feeling healed. Like yesterday, my partner was not available for something that I was going through.

27:57 And I was like, I had a moment of light. She's not available. And then I was like, wait a second, You just poured your heart out in the dude Dojo. You just had all these men identify with you and you with them, and you just had the most amazing hour and you got exactly what you needed. Why are you still trying to make someone else wrong? Like, dude, you're doing the work and it's working. So just be grateful for above. And then I was like, I celebrate too. I teach that as well. So yeah, that's it for me right now. Is has there been a transformation of a man that you've worked with that has like surprised even you or or impacted you in a in a in a different unique way? I really relate to being empathic and intuitive. And I want to say a quick disclaimer, I'm not unique in that we actually all have the, we all are empathic and intuitive and we have the some more than others more, some have been trained.

28:53 Some of our survival mechanisms have kept us from being more so, but it's something like a muscle that we can all tune and become stronger at. And my, my dear friend Daniel Tuttle, the provocative intuitive, I meditate with him every day. He's a friend, he's a mentor, he's an energy healer. He reminds me he's he's been hearing and able to communicate with other dimensions and people who have passed on and, and people here in a an intelligence, some people would call like psychic or hyperintuitive. And he's like, no, you all have this. So he really taught me to believe in my own and I love that about him. So I tell you that too, that we really can can take that on.

29:34 Sorry, ask me a question one more time. Is there a transformation of a man that has surprised even you? Yeah, thank you. Wow, that was long within when I said all that, all that was to say that like not many people surprised me. Like I just really see people's potential. I feel like that's kind of my job and I see the big it's what I want for someone. But I think probably one of the biggest ones I saw that was awesome was yeah, OK, yeah, Yeah, it's two that surprised me. One was we had a men's circle and there was, you know, men ages up to like 80 years old. And right before we were about to start, it was like, you know, pretty typical range of dudes. A 25 year old transgender man walked in and he taught me so much just to be able to show up in that room and told us how unsafe he feels in the world right now and especially in our country, even in his own towns and cities and at work. And how much how many fights he has defending himself. And, and that he walked in this group of men and he saw something possible for himself.

30:46 And he got seen and heard and taught us all something about what it really is to be a man in this world and what some of us have to go through to be a man in this world based on what the world thinks a man should be and look like. And I identified with that a lot, even as a, you know, born a man, whether you identify or agree with this argument either or not, like someone who feels so other than the world and identifies as something that people think is not human or or normal. I think really takes something to be that I, I learned when my father was like, I was not born gay. I wouldn't, I mean, I'm, I did not choose to be gay. Like I would never want to be gay. Like I tried not to be gay.

31:28 I went to therapy, tried not to be gay. Like it's really, really hard. Trust me, it just happened. You know, it's part of who we are. And the other, you know, so that was really amazing to that. That man taught us so much. And then the other one was a 63 year old veteran whose son had committed suicide. And he was up here in New York visiting and he saw a poster for men's retreat. But he's from South Carolina. And he had been really closed off and in pain. And he, he was like, he called me and he was like, I don't know exactly why I'm calling you. I've never really done anything like this, but I'm going to fly all the way up to New York for your retreat and stay there. It's so weird.

32:17 So I don't know. He's like really going there. And he just, he was silent most of the retreat. And then at the end, he opened up. He told us whole story of his son. He had created the socks for him. They're called Warren Pete's because his son, when he was a baby, he used to call his feet Pete's. So he has. It's dedicated to Warren Pete's, his son. And I was just so moving that this man, something made him feel safe here. He was a veteran. He dealt with PTSD and trauma and severe loneliness and isolation and suicidal ideation and thought his life was over and his son who he lived for died. Like, what else did he have to live for? And still like, not sure.

33:05 Like day 2 of there were three day retreats. Still not sure why I'm here, You know? And then something cracked. And you know, when you see what's possible and you're actually have other men hold something for you, A it could be like almost traumatic because if you've never actually had that experience, it's like really letting go feels really scary. And then you live, you're like, oh, that was amazing. I lived, Oh my God, I didn't die right? And it was seeing that transformation was and there's always some one of us that's resistant. I've been that hyper resistant. I have no idea why I'm going to this. And then the at the end I'm like, Oh my God, that was the best thing ever. Yeah, I've come to realize the more resistant I into something, the better it's going to be.

33:54 So now I'm really excited. Oh, I really don't want to go to this. Oh, good. Like, oh, because if I'm just like, yeah, let's this'll be fun. It'll be like it is. It's just fun in light. But if I really am afraid to go to something, I know it's going to be huge for me. What's the biggest challenge that you see facing men today that isn't getting talked about enough? Well, the good news is I think a lot of things are starting to be talked about. That's I'm like racking my brain. I've been sent a lot of articles this week alone, like New York Times, Psychology Today, all this stuff popping up. Well, it's not really being talked about in cells. You know, I didn't even know what that was till a year or two ago. And come to find out, like how many young men have done that suicide for men under 40, you know, under 50, like the men who don't like have these huge families and huge jobs, yet I've lost multiple friends to suicide.

34:46 And I know there's something there. I can't put my finger on it. I can feel it. I want to say something about sex. I think it's talked about, but it's like, it just feels like it's all about, like it's really black and white spaces and sexual abuse is probably one of the hardest things for us to talk about. I mean, statistically, it takes us 30 years to say anything. One in six men have statistically reportedly been sexually abused. That's the ones that say something. So they think it's actually closer to one in four or five. I myself realized this year that something I thought was normal was being sexually molested. I wrote myself off as not having ever been through that but feeling as if I had.

35:35 And then I was telling my friend about how like the umpire I was a catcher in Little League. The umpire used to reach under and like touch my junk to make sure I was wearing my cup, so to speak. But even then as a kid, it felt weird. And like I that happened numerous times and I know it happened to me and much of SAP and other people. And it only took me telling adults like, now to be like, oh, oh, I just thought that was the southern thing. Like, yeah, let me just check or tell your kid. And like, even that, like didn't feel right. And yet as a kid, I told myself, like, dude, you're fine. Like, why are you just being cool? It's interesting how what we can make up about something. And, and I don't think, Oh, and there's one other thing I want to say that I think is really not being talked about, and that is grief, but even more specifically, miscarriage and how it affects men.

36:25 I've been through a lot of trauma through the miscarriage that my wife had, we had and it, it is a trauma for men as well. And I don't think a lot of men know that they're allowed to deal with it. One, that and two, that that that it really does affect them, us and in ways that we have yet to understand fully because we're not talking about it. And so I noticed when when I started talking about mine, how many people were thanking me and how many women were thanking me, but women's men still weren't saying anything. And my friends were like, Oh my God, I never mentioned mine. That happened seven years ago ever to anyone. Oh my God. Right. So that's another thing. Yeah, when we first spoke you would mention in cells then too. Do do you know what would?

37:09 What would you want to say to any man that identifies as an in cell? A lot of things. I don't know if there's anything I can say it's going to make a difference to you other than believe it or not I understand I was not always fuckable. I really identify with being alone and wanting to seek violence or self harm or harm of others as a way of numbing out. And I'm here to show proof that like there's actually a way to learn to love yourself and other men will start to and and women will actually love the things that you're most afraid of to talk about are the very things that are going to have you start to be loved.

37:49 But when you're we're so I understand you need one community and I just want to offer that there's ones that don't have to be harmful to you and you deserve to live another day and you can come check out the do nation anytime you can dip your toes in. You don't have to ever talk, ever be seen. You can just listen and allow you know us to love you till you learn to love yourself. Yeah, even all all these, you know, extremist fringe groups, whatever the label might be, they all do prove the power and need for community. We I would just like to see a healthier core reason for the gathering of a community.

38:34 Yeah, and I got it too. I mean, it's like, what can we say? Because if, if you're being hit already, I'm seeing this like I have to close my eyes in commercials 'cause I'm noticing them that they're getting brighter and flashier and colorful and I'm it's, it's really over stimuling. Also, we have like a movie screen TV, so we could get rid of it during the day, but it's intense and it I'm noticing like all that stuff we have actually what they're proving was it post like algorithmic stress. There's like these like depressions that we're having from algorithms, like working their ways into our brain like a little worm, you know, and we were hooked in these things. And it sort of takes more and more to we get desensitized, right? And so we see it takes more and more stuff to kind of wake us up.

39:23 And even watching the 100 foot wave, I'm a big surfer and watching like, I'm just fascinated with why these people have put themselves in this situation. Like, I've been injured a lot. But these guys are like, you know, it is like, hey, let me just jump off this Cliff and hope I land this time. And, you know, part of it is one of the guys right off Garrett McNamara is the first one to surf this huge wave said I'm addicted to the rush. You know, suddenly I couldn't get the rush anymore and so I had to go for a bigger wave. So I get it if like this isn't cutting it and why we're cutting ourselves. And we just want to feel something that's not this pain. And this pain, I'm sorry, is not even yours.

40:05 Like you've been given this by programmers by. By generational trauma, by a country that doesn't know how to support you in communicating, by cell phone industry, by all this stuff that is like, I think you're probably doing the best with the way you have. You're like, hey, here's a community that I actually identify with that I like talk with. But if you know that there's only a part of you getting served there and there's a whole other part you've had to cut off to be there, that's usually a sign that there's just consider that you could be in more than one community and maybe and feel seen and heard. And, and if you're looking for safe space or even if that doesn't feel safe, you can always send me a message and I will personally have a conversation with you.

40:50 It, it will take me 24 hours to get back to you. I don't put automated messaging and things in my, my stuff yet because I, I really want to make sure I see everything. And I go back and sometimes I miss something and I'm like 6 months later. Oh my God, hey, I dropped the ball. I see you like, are you still open to talking to me? You know, have you moved on? Like I'll, I'll be there. You send me another message if I miss you. But I, you know, I have a link. You can book a call with me and get on my calendar anytime and if I'm not the right resource, like I can refer you to someone who can be. And there's free resources you don't have to pay. And I find investing a little bit in yourself has you start to build worth very quickly.

41:35 But I don't believe anyone should have to pay for community and we all need it and deserve it. And any conversation with me is private, confidential and free. How has what it means to be a man evolved for you if it has? Well, I know I can be a real man and be sensitive now. I know I can be a real man and not be rich. I know I can be a real man and really in touch with my feminine side. I know I can be a real man and be a really sexy dancer and move my hips and my chest and, like, make intent to eye contact with people. I know I can be a real man and be really emotional and cry in public. Yeah, my dad cried all the time is so embarrassing. And now I'm like, I don't care.

42:23 I hope someone sees me crying. Maybe it'll give them permission. My friend Mark Gwai, he leads some beautiful father work and meditation. He's a coach and one of the first times we met, he asked if I wanted at the end of the time, he's like, would you be open to do some eye gazing? And like, even for me, it was the actor. I've done that. I have not do that on retreats. I'm like, I know you, That's weird. And that was so beautiful. And then I had this moment, like I saw this. I can hear someone walking by and I was like, oh sweet, I hope they're looking at us right now. I was staring into each other's eyes and like this man and I both have our own families and like, and I love this dude and he's going to be there for me when my mom dies and I'm going to be there for him when his mom dies. And I think it's one of because he was so willing to let me see him and be so vulnerable.

43:21 And I just the other thing is I learned also this from Preston a lot and I now exemplify this I think pretty well is like you don't have to have your shit together to be a real man or to be a great leader. Like he would always tell one on himself. Like I struggle on my relationships, all of them sometimes and with myself. But being willing to be open and real and honest is one of the sexiest things. Like women just want authenticity and someone who like deals with themself. And part of that is it's not then listen, I know this isn't all about men and women and gay or straight, but this is like the feminine needs a solid space. And it is not appropriate to put all of that masculine energy into a feminine space. We need each other.

44:05 We need places to practice and community that is not just one person. Like they can't, it's not appropriate for your partner to hold all this same thing. I'll tell the women like get a women's circle, get a group of people to support you because it's not appropriate for your husband or your partner to hold all of that either. So it's like, you know, I really want to encourage you to put the oxygen mask on yourself first in a fine community if you're out there, even if it's just like, hey, I listen to the real men feel show every day. And this is my, this is community for me. Hey, this is a great place to start. If you're identifying with something that feels like maybe there's something here like that's a good safe go where it's warm first. You don't have to like go into some like alpha intense boot camp if it's not comfortable, right?

44:49 Like start with where it's a warm because you who you are is actually one of the most interesting things in the world. And the more you get to embrace that and find places that will listen for you and hold space for you and hold you accountable for that, I think that's where it's at. What is your ultimate vision for Dude Nation? That all men everywhere see us, experiences us as a safe harbor. That we are known in the world as a safe harbor for men, a place that will of community and of resource. That we become really a resource for the world mostly.

45:34 That we continue to fulfill our mission of developing emotional intelligence or love, resilience, partnership, community and brotherhood, and healthy ground and masculinity in the world. And that we hold each other accountable to do that. And may we be one of the many beacons of light that do that because as many men are in the world, there could be many different organizations. We are one of them. There's this great quote. We'll be getting one of my favorite songs. He's like, ladies and gentlemen, there have been many songs written in the world. This is one of them and it is. And if it speaks to you, great. And that's why I even have like Aiden, our our dude bot who's Australia too.

46:21 He's really fun to talk to. He like it's sort of decided that on its own based on the research. And I was like, well, cool, OK, and Aussie, it's a 24 hour resource. So if you ever have any questions, like, you know, come see us. But I I think I answered the question. What's one thing you wish more men knew? That they're allowed to say no and stand up for themselves, but they don't have to put up with being talked down to by their partners just because they're men. They don't have to be quiet just because they're men. They're allowed to be loud and angry. It's not one thing, but it's like your voice that matters.

47:02 And if your needs aren't being met or you feel needy, like consider that your needs are being met and and that maybe there's some other places where you could also get them met. Like maybe there's other you're not alone. And there are a lot of safe spaces here for you that can look however you want and you can kind of take what you need being you get to say what you need and being a man. Ben, what's the best way for people to find out everything that you and Dude Nation are up to? Call Aiden really 84547 O dude, because you can ask any question in the world and call it 24 hours a day from anywhere in the world. Or go to thedudenation.com and everything's there, including a link to book a call with me to get on our newsletter, to get free resources, to get connected, to hear real testimonials from men in our organization and poke around and see what a fun safe space might be like. It's a pretty simple site.

48:07 We're not here to sell you a bunch of stuff. And if you join our community, we send an e-mail out once a week, usually with some really useful tools. Each month is a different theme for us based on what men are actually dealing with and what the world is dealing with. So we're doing a lot of great work with each other and in the organization, asking questions, encouraging, challenging men to, to, you know, really work on their mental health and, and you know, like the good night bro. There was a good night bro movement where guys were just calling each other saying good night bro. And it was like slowing suicide down for, you know, a week because we started to, to think about each other and communicate it.

48:48 So it's really simple things of just reaching out. Ben, I really appreciate everything you're doing. That's the best way to get some it up. I I love thing all, all dude, con dude, Dojo dude, everything I'm in and I'm really glad to find out that we're not that far away from each other and we maybe we can do some actually in human contact things in the future. I would love to give you a hug, Andy Grant. For real? Yeah. And. Well, thanks, dude. You really made an impact on my life. Oh, and received like I really receive your acknowledgement and know that that it I really feel the same way whether people are listening or not. What you're up to in the world is really beautiful. And you're one of the first shows I started following when I got into like I'm gonna follow other men and feel. And you know, I was like this guy. He's, you know, like, thank you, Andy. It really spoke to me.

49:49 I'm one of those people who needed to feel validated as a man who feels and guess what we all do. And I heard you like I heard a call and I'm clear that dude con is going to be in person, maybe hybrid so people can TuneIn other where, but we're going to have the real men feel show or Andy Grant on stage there. That's that feels really good to me. And so I hope that that's something you'd be interested in and we'll definitely follow up. And I'd love to have you on my show. Dude, you're getting well. We're talking about, you know, what are some things we can actually do? How you do take care of yourself as a, you know, today in the world, balancing what you do and how different leaders have turned pain and a purpose. And I would love to just stay connected with you. And I'm really grateful for everyone who listens to this show, whether it's your first time or you've been listening for a long time.

50:40 If there's anything in here that moved you, that touched you, that inspired you, tell Andy, tell me. And more importantly, like share it with someone in your life because holding on to it is selfish. You want to give it away and be like, dude, look what I learned because then they can help hold you accountable. And we need each other so that friends who you're like, I don't want to call him like as much as when you pick up the phone and you ask someone else how they're doing or just period, you can just listen. It's an opportunity for someone else to be of service to you too. So even asking for help is one of the greatest gifts that we can give anyone in our life. And I just support and I leave our listeners with that and and that I'm very grateful to be on your show. Thanks for joining us everyone.

51:26 Please visit realmanfield.org for the blog post for this episode, which held all the various links and resources to discuss wherever you're discovering real and feel. Please subscribe, follow, like, share this episode with somebody, post a review or a comment, and until next time, be good to yourself.