Breaking the Silence: Male Victims of Domestic Violence and The Legal System

0:00 Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel. This is your host, author, coach and healer, Andy Grant. Please visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me. Real Men Feel reminds men that they're human beings and have the right to experience and express all of their emotions. We have conversations this most men are not having, but that all men and the women who love them can benefit from. My guest today is Patrick Leary. Patrick is a college professor and owner of Clutch Coaching LLC, a consulting company focused on the health and Wellness of student athletes as they make life and career transitions. Patrick is also a domestic violence survivor who is dedicated to serving the global community of men who have endured physical abuse and mental anguish within a domestic relationship. The conversation today is pretty heavy. Patrick shares a four years long experience with our court system.

0:48 Numerous faults, charges made against him, the the losing of so many aspects of his life and livelihood. Yet through it all, he keeps his humanity, hope and resilience. Patrick offers advice for men in similar situations and changes he'd like to see in a legal system to better recognize and support male victims. Let's do it. Welcome to Real Men Field, Patrick. Great to be here, Andy. Thanks for having me today. Yeah, this, this is been a long time coming. I had Anne Silvers as a guest. She's an author writing about the abuse of men by women. And that was four years ago. And in those four years, you came into contact with her and she recommended that you talk to me and and we did talk like 3 years ago, right? We sure did.

1:34 We sure did. And you know, I, I'm glad that we stayed connected and really happy to be with you today to share, share my story. So you are a domestic violence survivor who was also falsely charged by your former partner. So you had a year's long journey through our fabulous legal system. And when we talked a while ago, you this was still going on. So so now things are resolved. Yes, for the most part, yeah. So I've, I've cleared all of the, the false charges, you know, I've been through, you know, hell and back, as they say. And you know, it's been, it's been a really long four years and I'm now ready to, you know, start to share and to really help others that may be facing similar type situations.

2:21 So can you take us back to the first point in your relationship that you realized you were in an abusive relationship? Certainly, yeah, I've never been around abuse my entire life. I I was raised by wonderful parents, came up in a wonderful family, you know, and and certainly would learned how to treat people as a result of how my parents treated others and how I was raised. And, you know, it was about four months into my, my relationship where I was abused, physically assaulted by my partner at the time. And it was very strange to me. It, it was very abnormal.

3:02 You know, I've, I've never, I don't resolve to abuse and I never have. And it was very foreign to me. And I just out of, I guess shrugged it off at the moment. You know, keeping in mind that, you know, I, I had been friends with a partner before we kind of consummated our relationship. I I had known her for less than a year before the abuse began, and once it started, that seemingly didn't end. Were you married at the time or living together? What was the? Situation, yeah, we were, we were, we were engaged at the time living together. He was actually pregnant at the time that the abuse began and then it continued after he had our our child.

3:49 So it was really a very difficult situation for me and and that's why I'm here today to try to spare my experience in the event that it could help just one person that would, you know, was would be in a like situation. What made you stay in this relationship since the the if it was not a one time event the the abuse happened on a recurring basis at least late and so why make yourself stay there for that? Yeah, that's a great question. I, which I ask myself frequently. I, I journal a lot. And you know, before today's meeting with you, I, I, I went back to my notes and, and I asked myself that question a lot.

4:34 I think it's because I believe in people and I've never been around abuse, so I didn't know how to respond to it in the moment. So instead of asking for help for myself, I tried to find help for her. And I reached out to, you know, I chronicled every moment of the abuse, every, every incident. I wrote a long letter to her at first that I in fact was in an abusive relationship to which she agreed. And I shared, I shared the, I shared that with her, her, her family, because I thought that it would be appropriate for them to understand that I, I, I needed some help to be able to help her.

5:17 So that's a great question. And, and, and again, to this day, it, it's something that I want to be able to share my story to help others because, you know, hindsight, as you know, is 2020 and I would have handled it differently. But at that time I thought the right thing to do was to try to help instead of help her instead of try to help myself. At what point did you did this become so much that you decided that enough was enough and you and you did end this relationship? It's when she brought it in to the children and she she hurt my child, she hurt my son. And that's when my legal troubles began because I had I called 911 immediately. She, you know, I previously mentioned to her we were in counseling at the time he had, he finally was seeking counseling for her issues.

6:13 And you know, I said, if you bring the abuse, I said I can handle it as an adult. But if I ever see this, and I'll, I'll work with you to seek the help that you need. But if you ever bring this into our, our family, down to our children, it, it's, we can't, we can't exist. We can't exist as as a unit and and that in fact happened where she the physically assaulted my child and I in turn called 911 as a result of that. What was your thought process when you were calling 911? What? What did you expect to happen? That they would, I would, I would get some help. I would get some relief of the situation that I was in. It was a untenable situation.

6:56 I was, I was holding a, you know, a, a six month old baby in one arm and consoling my, my 8 year old child in the other that was hysterically crying trying to escape from this individual. So I was in a very untenable. I, I, I had, I needed help. That would That's when I knew I needed help and I thought I was going to receive help. And what did happen when the police arrived? I was arrested. Did your did your partner make charges against you at that time or was this just automatic behavior by the police or? No, she, she actually be injured herself while the police were in route and she admitted, she admitted as much she be self injured. She she was smart enough to know that someone was going to be taken away and she didn't want it to be her. So you know, it's the first, the first person that the police saw was her.

7:56 They saw that she was visibly upset and sustained an injury, that she armed herself and I was upstairs with the children trying to protect them from her at the time. And they barrel down the door and took the kids away and next thing I was gone. I was in. I was arrested. How long was the the legal battle from from being arrested that night to to be to resolution in court? Here's the perplexing elements to this whole, you know to this whole story is that following that incident, the the pardon was very remorseful, understood that she did the wrong thing by me, understood that he abused the legal system. And you know, someone that is a college professor that has never committed any crime ever before had a serious charge against him.

8:51 And I, Andy, to be honest with you, I, I had no idea how I've never been in court. I, I, I, I, you know, I appeared the next day and I didn't realize how serious the charges were, you know, because I, I hadn't committed a crime. And So what ended up happening was, you know, she realized she wanted to, she wanted to stay in the relationship. And we did, you know, we had, I had a 8 year olds home with like my ex-wife and the six month old at the time with her. And I'm very family oriented. So I, I, I really wanted to make sure I, I tried to take all the right steps to see this through again, you know, knowing that that was a very traumatic experience for me. I knew at that time that I was going to leave her. I knew immediately that this was the time, but I had a serious charge levied against me.

9:49 So I was trying to, I was in a very difficult situation with really no resources to support me other than my family and my friend. And it's quite humiliating, as you can imagine, you know, having this charge against you. That is when you're, you're an educator, you know, you're, it's, it's, it was a, a very difficult situation for me. So what I ended up doing was I I stayed in the relationship with her, but I ended up putting my Hondo up for sale. I knew that I couldn't be around her anymore. And in fact, after that night I wouldn't allow or my ex-wife wouldn't allow my child, my son to be around this this individual that had assaulted an 8 year old child.

10:35 So he wasn't allowed to see her anymore. I moved back in with my parents, with my son, and I kept the condo. I put it up for sale, and that was a way for me to kind of break it off with her. I wasn't sure what the outcome would be, but that was what I thought would be the best way to separate myself from from her and from the continued abuse. It was just a very toxic situation. So you're kind of being an an actor in this time. Let letting her think you want to continue the relationship while you're severing ties. Yeah, it was, it was very stressful because obviously I, I cared for her as a person and I, I had this charge against me.

11:20 And it was, it was up to her to essentially relieve me of the charge. And, and she, she, my lawyer at the time, actually consulted me to, to be be very nice to her because the fate of my, of my charge rested in her hands are eventually, you know, I, I really as educated as I believe I am, I, I really don't, wasn't as familiarized with the criminal justice system. And, you know, she, she signed a victim impact statement saying that I didn't do it, that it was, I never had laid a hand on her.

12:00 But at the same time, she, she, she sensed that I was trying to remove myself from the relationship. And, you know, she ended up moving back with her parents and I ended up moving back with my parents temporarily. But we were still trying to find a way to maintain a relationship through, you know, through that following that that initial incident. What was the actual charge against you at that time? Domestic violence against a partner. Assault, assault and battery against a domestic partner. And when she did the victim statement saying nothing had happened, did she have the ability the the power to stop the charge or was that already?

12:46 She she, she, she did, however, she didn't show up in court that that that morning. She simply just filled out the, the victim impact statement and then there was going to be another court date set, which there was. But this is just the beginning of the story. The hope, you know, there was other episodes that have the transpired following that initial incident to that, that court date in which if we were, you know, amicable and we were symmetrical and in so far as our our futures together, it it wouldn't have been, it would have been, it would have been resolved, but it it never got to that point.

13:29 We just, I wasn't willing to to work with her to to maintain our relationship. She is saying she wants to continue relationship. You are clear and know that you don't want one, and for a while you're at least trying to play nice to have the illusion that maybe there is something there. So, So what? What happened? What? What were the other circumstances? So it was, it was, it was a living. It was, it was purgatory on Earth. It was I. She was very much trying to get us to maintain a family. She was trying to get my son to open back up to her, even though he was scared of her. And you know, I, I had made that executive decision Andy, that I knew I couldn't be around abuse anymore. It had just hit, you know, it, it had bottomed out. It had just, I, I can't have, I couldn't have my building around that.

14:22 So I ended up putting my condo up for sale. And you know, it went, it went very quickly. Intermittently, I would meet my partner there with the baby so I could, I could see the baby and that's some time with, with the baby. And she really used that as a leverage point to have time with me. Really, it wasn't, it wasn't about her. It was just about seeing my children. And there was an episode, a second episode where she knew that I, I had essentially established the case against her because I, I, you know, for custody's sake, I chronicled all of our history of abuse. DCF became involved after that initial incident, Andy, because there were two children present in the house when there's a domestic violence episode and that automatically triggers a DCF investigation.

15:22 So with that, you know, that unto itself was just from from me who prides myself on the voting and being a dedicated dad. That was just so foreign to me. But I obviously I was compliant and and did everything I needed to do. But you know, I was chronicling everything that had happened to me in my phone. There were there were audio recordings, there were photos of the abuse. She had snatched my computer with a hammer, she had broken my glasses, she had ruined things in in the condo, she had snatched walls, ripped doors off their hinges, and I had all of that information on my phone.

16:05 In essence destroyed my phone. He also realized that I had contacted an ex-boyfriend of hers who she communicated to me that she had a physical abusive relationship with. Though I did reach out to him and he was very receptive to me reaching out. And he did mention, I mean, they were young, they were in college, but he admitted that he had issues, especially when she was drinking, which he would punch him. What ended up happening was he, he contacted her following my, my contact with him. We were cleaning out. I had, I had literally the, the condo had sold. I was, you know, signing the purchase and fail at like the IT was, it was ready to go.

16:51 She just had to clean up. I, I left some stuff for her to pick up at the condo and I agreed to to meet her there to do that. And what ended up happening was that was the another fatal mistake that I made to trust myself alone with her. At that point she confronted me on reaching out to the ex-boyfriend because he he he he actually reached out to her and saying congratulations on your child there. I wish you the breath in your life ahead that she started to realize that I was building a case against her and she thought that the children, our daughter would be taken from her. Though he we had me arrested again that day. What ended up happening was she cornered me. He knew I would never lay my hands on her. And all the all the times, all the horrible nightmares living, living those back, I would never lay my hands on her. And she knew that.

17:52 And she would always block the door for me to be able to exit because she would have put her body in front of the door and not let me leave. And I was, she had my phone, so I had no, I, it was no way I could call anyone. And so she ended up, I ended up trying to escape from her. So I, I, I just ran into the bathroom. I closed the door, she tried to pick it down and she, she, after a few minutes be stopped and she said, OK, I'm, I'm just going to cool off. What we need to cool off and we're just going to go get us coffees at the Starbucks. And, and I breathed a sigh of relief.

18:34 I'm like, thank the Lord, I, I can finally go. I can finally leave. I ended up leaving. I was moving things back to my tires house. I was in there and I had to get everything out of the condo because the the new resident was coming in literally the following week. So everything has to be out. There was a walk through schedule. So that was an important date to get everything out. And I come back from dropping things off in my tires and there's five police cars waiting for me at my condo. And I asked what was going on. And then they started AU so and so and I said yes. And they're like, you're under arrest for domestic violence. They didn't tell me what I did or anything like that. They just literally put me in the car and I was taken again. And they I, I, it didn't surprise me, Andy it it, it, it didn't surprise me.

19:36 It was, it was her attempt at a desperate like some sort of redemption against me that some sort of revenge and did it against the she was self abusive. She admitted this he hurt her, felt she actually admitted this to our therapist that we created self harm. And she, that was her, that was her weapon against me. So the first time you were arrested, were you just released the next day? Yes, I had no record, Yeah. Right. So you arrested again, is it the same experience you arrested a second time? Is it they just take you in, book you and let you go?

20:18 It's a little bit more serious because keeping in mind it was, it was about two months between the 1st and 2nd Instagram, they let's just say the bail was significantly higher and it was far more serious because this time around he wasn't on my side. The second time around, he wanted me to go away. He realized that the relationship was over and he had stated that if we weren't together, he was going to ruin my life and do it well in our way of doing that. Yeah. How was the rest of your life impacted this point? Was this in the news that local paper?

21:00 Does it affect you at work? Oh sure. I did though. I, so coming out of that, that second quarter appearance, I, I had AGPS bracelet where I was allowed to go to work and you know, I was, it was essentially AGPS bracelet just wasn't allowed to go where she lives, where she resides, which I, I was perfectly OK with. Obviously it's very humiliating to have AGPS bracelet when you're out college professor and you have to try to explain that to an 8 year old, your 8 year old child. I, I, I was, I managed it. I knew I'd done nothing wrong.

21:42 Maybe I was naive to the system and looking back, of course I was. But I had two charges against me at this time. I had an ankle, the GPS bracelet and a restraining order against me that was issued the second time. So the first time the, you know, she signed a victim impact statement. He knew that she was in error. And if we wanted to try to maintain a relationship, you know, and, and win me back, so to speak. This time around, she knew that I was building a case against her. And then I, I was, I had closed the door in our relationship. There was no, I was just vengeance. It wasn't, it wasn't trying to be amicable at all.

22:23 So with that came, you know, her in the court, try to get my bail revoked, try to send me to prison that second time that failed, but they did put the GPS priestly on me. But she got, she got her with about a month later, she got her with. Well, since I had a restraining order, obviously there's a no contact order as a result of that and I had no reason to contact her. I in fact, I, I had wish she had disappeared from my life well in advance of this. You know, the unfortunate reality is that that child's the real victim and all of this. But you know, it was, it was a it was like, remember it clear as day. It was, it was right.

23:09 The Thursday night going into a Friday morning and the, the police show up at my door and communicate that there was contact between me and her, that I initiated some contact. And like I they, so they, they, they took me. They took me and I spent 72 days in prison. 72 days. Wow. The the story continues. But I, I had no, I didn't, I didn't, I did not do that.

23:50 I, she literally provided 0 evidence to the police. But you know, because I had those two charges against me, your, I think you're viewed through the eyes of, you know, law enforcement as a criminal, as a, as a thug, as someone that is a woman abused as women. And that was none of those things. But at the end of the day, I was the one who was taken away. I spent 72 days in prison. I obviously lost my job. I, I received my resignation letter from my university in the mail at the jail that insulted injury. It was, it was I, it was, it was still real. I, I had, that was still real.

24:37 That's the only way to explain that as someone that the only time I've ever stepped foot in the jail was, you know, for a sociology class and in high school to do an observation. What was the most shocking part of this? Is it the the actions of your abuser or was it more the actions of the legal system? Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think that she was allowed to use the law, the legal system against me. She was usually, she was able to get gain her vengeance against me by abusing the system and it was allowed. There was literally no evidence that I had ever done any of the things that I was accused of doing. 0 And here I am at that point having three charges against me who do my thickest assault and batteries and a violation of a restraining order, none of which I had committed.

25:35 And here, here I was, you know, I'm spreading, you know, two 2 1/2 months in prison. How did you maintain or did you maintain any sense of hope during that time? Yeah, it was difficult. It was I, it was surreal. So I just embraced it at that moment. It was, it was almost like like a phenomenological study where I just, I kind of became where I, I was, became part of the environment. And I think that that helped me accept it at that time as as difficult as it was. And, you know, I actually made a lot of friends there.

26:17 I, you know, they a lot of advocates, you know, when, when I was able to scare what had happened to me and why I was there and you know, they, they called me the professor. They gave me like I had some St. cred there, you know, so it was I, I just, I had to make the best of it. And I the only thing that really kept me going were, you know, the notes from like my now partner and my son and my family. That that that's what kept me motivating, motivated and as foreign as the place that that was to me. You know, my friends to this day still can't believe that I was there based on who I am.

27:03 And but at the same it happened. It happened as a result of this current system and the way that it can be manipulated. So you're in prison, 3 charges against you. I know you end up with more charges against you. So so how? How do those unfold? Yeah, so while I was in prison, I got slapped with another charge. I had a, a Courier show up with a, a letter saying that I've had an intimidation of a witness charge against me that I tried to intimidate the part, her alleged witness trying to coerce her.

27:51 I guess allegedly it was for the victim impact statement that I coerced her into signing that and the police were I guess believed her. I, I don't know how that works and I, I don't know how that that's a very serious charge actually. So without any evidence, I don't know how they, they were able to just slap that charge on me. So while I was just sitting there in, in the penitentiary, I got slapped at the 4th charge. So might as well add another one to the plate. I finally got out. I finally got out house arrest, no job and leave and leave the house. Have, you know, an 8 year old child, right Co parent, have, you know, split custody with, you know, I, it was a year, a year of a year of house arrest.

28:50 So 72 days in prison followed by a year of house arrest wearing an ankle monitor. You know, yes, you're allowed to leave if you get a job, but I, I had four charges against me. How can I get a job and addition to that, I I had there were there were some, you know, there's some flexibility with being able to when you're a parent to be able to drop off or pick up your child to school, which of course I wanted to do. However, the the ex partner when I when I I had I literally had a a meeting with the court in my the virtual meeting with a judge in my attorney. She blocked me from being able to drop off and pick up my son from school and saying that our daughter had a pediatric dentist within 500 yards of the school and I would know exactly when she would be there.

29:52 And she was scared and threatened by me. So the judge granted didn't grant me the ability to pick up my child. So I was literally housebound. I couldn't leave. It was that that was more painful than actually the 72 days in prison, not being able to provide for your child. Like, you know, I, I'm a, I'm an active person. I'm a marathoner. I, I, you know, I run like 50 to 60 miles a week. I have an ankle monitor on, you know, I, I can't work on it was, it was very, it was a very trying time. Did you have any advocates, people you could, you know, lean on during this time? Because I I can't imagine the frustration of knowing you've done anything wrong, but the entire system says otherwise. Correct.

30:42 Yeah, I mean, my, my, my best friend's a a like a, a Boston police Lieutenant. And he he, he couldn't he couldn't even believe it. But the end of the day, yes, I, I, I was blessed to have a very strong support with, with my, my family, my parents especially, and my partner, Lauren and my son, you know, kept me going on. They kept me, my spirits up. It it was, you know, in those, in those instances, you, you always need rituals. You need thing, you need to be around family. You need some sort of, you know, because it can go the other way real quick, I'm sure, But, you know, just trying to be resilient.

31:28 You know, I, as someone that reads a lot, I write a lot. I, I, and started journaling, kind of capturing what am I feeling, what I'm experiencing. I, I started my own company at that point, you know, with kind of thinking forward Andy, thinking that at some point I, I, I really need to be able to, to help others because this is honestly such a trying time. And I, and it was just unfathomable based on the fact that I committed no crime and some individual that just was vengeful that I didn't want to be with her, was able to use the system to penalize me in such a way that it crippled me, you know, financially. I, I lose my job, I, I can't work, I, I can't be a dad, I can't coach, I can't, I can't be social. I everything, you know, every element, every bucket of life other than like family was taken away. But you know, interestingly, it was while I was on house arrest that I got my 5th charge.

32:36 So I didn't even have to leave the house for this one. And you know that police show up again in the middle of the night. It was, you know, ironically, a Friday night. And this individual understands that if you're detained on a on a Friday night, you're sitting in, in detention in a prison in a cow until Monday morning when the courts open. So again, strategically planned this, this individual set up a, a false snapshot account and indicated that I had communicated to her via Snapchat instead of, of distorted image of my, my child to her.

33:21 And that's allegedly what she showed the police. And they took that as evidence enough that I should be detained and slapped with a charge, which was the second violation of her restraining order. So that was the 5th and final charge. And I spent three nights, three nights. Fortunately, my attorney is very good and is a friend to this day because I've spent so much time with him. But he said there's no way that this happened. We got a tech expert involved there. There was just, there was just no way. There was literally no way that it came from my phone. I mean, none of these things came from my phone. It was scanned by a, you know, FBI, former FBI agent that has specialized in the logistics and information systems. And they scan my phone.

34:09 None of it on my phone. So you got 5 charges against you and you're really it it it feels like you're up against a criminal mastermind who knows the system knows how to use it strategically to inflict the most pain onto you. How is there finally resolution and and clearing of charges when it is just a a a she said he said situation? Yeah, it was a it was a gradual process, you know, and you know the whole saying with the wheels of justice, while they do turn very slow, that's for sure. So the, the D as office dismissed those, those two alleged restraining order violations. There was no evidence, she couldn't produce any evidence. So they they just dismissed those. And then I had to go through trial on the other guardian site 1 by 1 and the jury found me not guilty on all. I think I'm a pretty credible person because I've never committed a crime and ultimately I was cleared of all, all charges.

35:16 It it took a long time. The the irony between behind the last charge, which was very recent, is that I left court that day and the criminal mastermind stalked me and literally knows where I live, knows what kind of car I drive. I know that she's been having me followed because it's been, it's been mentioned in probate court because I'm trying to gain custody of some custody of my daughter. And it's been communicated that she's been having these followed. So she knows where I live. She knows pretty much some information about me that I don't know about her because I really don't care.

36:01 I just want to eradicate her for my life. But that particular day, it was very recent. He he called the police and said that I had violated the restraining order that I was So that one, one nugget of information that I should communicate is that I do have currently a civil ending matter, which is the final restraining order that hasn't It was extended last May and it expires after a year. So that hasn't been, even though all criminal matters have been have been absolved that that's still the one tending charge. So he ended up calling the police and saying that I was following her and he was, he has no reason to be in the town where I live.

36:54 Literally the court is 5 minutes from courthouse, is 5 minutes from where Ira died. And he was sitting out waiting for me to to get home. And she called the police and said that I was I was following her, that I was stalking her and they came to the door. My poor son was here, he was very concerned and scared because he's been around when the police have come and taken me, you know, and that that will never leave me that, you know, he's a wonderful young boy and he you know, he's very Brazilian. We have a great relationship, but just the fact that something so serious like a, a charge like that and just be taken.

37:37 So again, it's the criminal mastermind. But fortunately I got my lawyer on the phone. He explained that I, I left the court with him. We drove around and we were going to go celebrate. That was the 5th and final charge. That was that. That's 4 long years of my life that have been in and out of the courts, in and out of the system. And it's been, it's been really a long battle and it was time to celebrate. Instead, I was again in fear that I was going to be taken again, lose my job. It was, it was just, it was, I almost had a panic attack. Unfortunately, the police did the right thing at that time. They listened to me, they listened to my lawyer and they realized that it was not a credible story. I wish they had done that, that, that diligence the previous times, but fortunately, you know that. Yeah.

38:34 But that just speaks to the character of this individual. It's it, it's just, it's still ongoing. And it I, I don't understand. I don't, I don't understand it, quite frankly. I. I believe if I was in a similar situation I would really be interested in revenge getting back. Did you consider charges against her or civil suits or anything like that? Or is that just beyond your personality? That's a great question. And don't think that I don't spend a lot of my time thinking about that. You know, I, I, I do believe that life has a way of, of working itself out.

39:16 You know, I think for me, the best form of revenge I can have is just like being successful and by sharing my story, by being able to help others that may be impacted. You know, obviously this is a hard story to duplicate, but I know that there's others out there that are, are, are faced with situations with their falsely accused of things and it can be debilitating to your life. And that's why I, I really want to dedicate, you know, I, I, I'm an educator and coach at heart. It's something that I love to do. I've been doing it, you know, essentially my entire career. And you know, I want I want to be able to continue to do that. And I think that will give me personal stylist. I think that will give me, you know, the ability to look look back on all of all of this that I've been to already. And my family and the closest to me, they've been a part of this as well.

40:13 And that's not lost on me, but you know, I think being able to really communicate. The story share my story the messaging and the being able to help others is is the best way to to have revenge. With the gift of hindsight, is there something you wish you knew back at the start? Is there 1 action that really would have made something different for you? Yeah, it's the first signs of abuse. Obviously abuse looks comes in many forms and looks a little bit differently depending on the circumstance. But the the physical abuse, once it starts, it continues. And in hindsight, that's, that's where, especially when you have children in the household, especially that's, that's where I, I, I wish I had just realized that I couldn't help this person, the only person that could help her with herself and she's chose not to do that.

41:23 What was the biggest challenge in not just rebuilding your life, rebuilding your sense of self and you know, being able to trust another person the rest of your life. What? What's the biggest challenge in that? It's been huge. You know, like I said, fortunately I have amazing people around me. That amazing family, they keep me going, amazing friends and they know me to the core and have kept me. But it, it's tough. I mean, I've been crippled in so many ways. You know, I fortunately my career path is, is back on track, but it was sidetracked for many years and and that's something that that's my livelihood.

42:05 I worked very hard to attain a certain place. And when that's taken from you, it it's it's hard to, it's hard to, it's hard, it's hard to digest. You know the ability when you have criminal charges, you can't do things like code things that I love to do. And that was that was really trying for me. Yell my child saying dare I? Can you coach? Can you coach? Can you coach up my team here? It's, it's humiliating, it's public humiliation. Unfortunately, a lot, not many people know what have happened to me and my like outside of my close circles. So I have not been liberal with sharing my story, but I do think that my confidence, it was, was really destroyed for quite a long time in my belief and in the system.

42:58 You know, when I've, I've always tried to be someone that has done things the right way, treated people with kindness and respect, and I'll continue to live that way. I never, I never stopped being that person. But at the same time, it's question that, you know, that whole adage of, you know, bad things can happen to good people. It, it, it's, you know, I feel blessed like there's, there's people in lights that have worse off situations with terminal illnesses and I feel blessed for what I have. But at the same time, it's been the, the journey's been very trying. I, I feel sick every time I think about a courtroom. It's just, it's just so foreign for me. It's not. And I think it's given me some it, it's definitely made me a smarter person.

43:46 But at the same time, it, it was a very challenging journey. And you, you feel alone a lot in that journey. You feel helpless because it's, it's, it's a criminal justice system. And with that there's, there's records, there is public, public records. And it's just very humiliating. I think that personal humiliation is not how the character of who I am and I want to be represented to the general. Public I I meet many men that have experiences, you know, just a, a piece of this, a one false charge against them or A1 bad experience in court and it makes them so jaded and bitter and really decide that all women are evil and just just they just stay full of hate. You are not you do not come across that way at all. So what has helped you the most in regaining your confidence in in letting you be who you always were? You know, I, I, not to go all spiritual here, but I do think, you know, believing in a higher order, I think believing that the path will be at the right path. Ultimately, it's just part of the journey. And you know, I, my, my parents are, are, you know, religious people.

45:11 I mean, they, they, they believe in their messaging has always been, you know, things will work themselves out. This is a this, this is part of what was supposed to happen to you. Whether you can make sense of it now at the time or not, it'll make sense at some point. And I've, you know, I've embraced that notion, Andy, because I, I don't want to be known as a bitter person. I don't want to be known as someone that heals theater that I feel life too short to live life that way. I do think that, you know, I want to be able to promote this what is personal, my personal voyage like, like to be able to maybe fix some things that are wrong and or help people that are need help. So, you know, instead of being saying I'm a victim and I'm victimized by all this, I'd rather, I'd rather change that narrative and they this is something that happened and I want to, it's not right and I want to change it. From talking earlier, I know that a men's group helped you. Can you like, how beneficial, how supportive was that men's group for you?

46:27 Very, I, I thought it was, you know, because the, again, a lot of the statistics say that, you know, most incidents of domestic violence are, are, are men against women, which is factually accurate. But you know, Anne Silver's, our friend Anne has dedicated a lot of her, her work to highlighting that it, it goes both ways. It's not just abuse of men against women. And, and of course the Me Too movement didn't kind of help that. But at the same time, there, there's plenty of incident incidents where females abuse men, but law enforcement doesn't believe that. And so I, you know, I think that there's, it's a flawed system. I think training, you know, maybe law enforcement training could be feeling how to handle certain situations instead of just, you know, I've met with law enforcement, the I've met with a lot of them and, and they've, they, they acknowledge that it, it's not, it's a flawed system. It's, you know, say it's, if we show up and this is this, then we have to do this.

47:39 And I, I, I understand it's a, there's a larger, you know, global conversation on that, but it, it's just the, the men's group helps you, you talk about these situations and realize that you're not alone, that there are other individuals out there that it's, it's not just men versus women or women versus men. It's just, it's just domestic violence in general. And that how can we stop that? So the group I was was with was part of a coalition against domestic violence and finding initiatives and ways to, you know, engage and talk about things like talk, talk masculinity and things of that sort.

48:27 Kind of dissolving some of the notions that, you know, men. Men are always the perpetrators of these, you know, incidents. But it's just simply not the case though, right? Yeah, unfortunately people abuse people. Any type of person, the gender, age, it doesn't really matter. But yeah, you know, I don't know if it's society, popular culture slanted that it's always just One Direction. Absolutely. To follow that, like, what do you think the stigma around men being victims of physical abuse, what what do you think that's rooted in? That's a great question. I don't know if I can give a profound answer. You know, I, I think that a lot of men don't want to admit that they've been a victim of domestic abuse. That, that that's first and foremost, I just, I've never been around abuse.

49:21 I've never been around physical violence, though. It was just so foreign to me that, you know, you asked about the hindsight question. I, I naturally, I wanted to help someone versus run from them. And that's the message in that I would employ, you know, moving forward to anyone that I would talk to you. You don't, you can't, like they say, don't stick around, right? If it happens once, it's going to happen again. And, and I now I know, I know, I know it's not just rhetoric, it's, you know, it, it's so it's, it's something that is a serious issue that, you know, it happens in a household. It doesn't happen out in public for the most part. I mean, so it's very private.

50:09 And, you know, from in my instance, you know, it's, you know, I was, I was the one that was the victim, but yet he procreate herself as the as the victim, you know, and, and every opportunity and, and everyone believed her that that's that's where I I find fault and flaw in, in our system, in our current system, when all I was trying to do Andy was protect my child. And that set up a stereo to the event that really ruined my life, quite frankly, and really put my life on hold and had to rebuild in every possible way for, you know, still working through it.

50:50 So. Patrick, you did mention, you know, just feeling that cringe in your in your guts think about a courtroom or anything like that. Do you still have fear and anxiety related to your ex? Absolutely. Yeah. It's it it, it's like a paranoia. How do you how do you deal with that and how do you keep that from spreading to all potential partners? It's, it's certainly not easy, you know, because it's everyone in my household now is, is aware of this individual and is aware of what she's capable of in a sense.

51:34 And I, I don't, you know, I, I don't know how it, how it ends. I, I don't, I don't know how it ends. I, I simply don't. But I can't worry about all I can do is worry about how I control myself, how I treat others and how I move forward. But I do think that, you know, I've thought about moving. We're going out of state. Honestly, I don't want her to know any anything about me. I don't want to get her to know where I work, where I live. She knows all those things. And because she hasn't followed still to this day, and I have no, I have no idea what her motives are. I really don't. She's already taken so much for me. So I I don't know where where her end game is or what her end game is. Is there anything top of mind ways that you wish society in the legal system could better support male victims? Yeah, I do.

52:28 You know, I wished again, I wished I had a more profound answer, but I I just think that the way that things compounded so quickly without any sort of like conversation, you know, our understanding from where my my vantage point, it was just this happened. OK, We believe it, this happened. OK, we believe it that and there was literally 0 evidence the the the police cannot provide. They provided 0 evidence. And in fact, when even in one of the the cases where the police testified in court, an officer he he he fumble around, he had no idea. Like he, he realized it was probably an error. Like, you know, based on the, the questioning from from my attorney at the time, there was literally no, no tact to see anything. There was, there was 0 repercussions. It was just book, yeah, well, book them. So I think, I, I do think that needs to be far more education and how charges can destroy someone's life. Something so serious that isn't even really investigated. There's there's no evidence.

53:35 It's just Yep, OK, sure. But let's the the courts handle it. And that's pretty much what happened. It's like, OK, well, we just did our job, but now let's pass it along, pass the buck along to the courts and see what they do. And, and I just think that that's extremely careless and reckless. And I think it's blot in in many ways. Do you have any advice besides don't stick around to a man, any other man that finds himself in in an abusive relationship? I do, you know, I think that one of the one of the outcomes of this in which this individual told me that he, she had targeted me. We were friends prior to being in a, in a, in a relationship. It was just an acquaintance, but she knew he saw how I treated others.

54:27 She saw how I was a dad to my son, how kind I was. And he he admitted that she targeted me, that he said, you know, I, I, I baby trapped you. He said, I, this is one thing that I didn't explore with you in our conversation. But she mentioned that when we first were in a relationship, you know, when we evolved from friends into, you know, a relationship, that she wanted to have a baby with me, that she didn't care if we were ever married, but she wanted someone with my looks and my smarts in the way that I was. So she, she was so from the get go, she lied.

55:08 And so I think that people are targets. They may not know it or not, but if you are successful, if you are, you know, I, I specifically think of young men who, you know, I work a lot in the, the sports base and I think about, you know, college athletes and now that they're millionaires, then, you know, with NIL deals. I, I, I really, a lot of my work is going to be focused on, you know, alerts like alerting yourself. You're a target. You're a target for a lot of things. And you see a lot in today's sports media about allegations against professional athletes because they're targets.

55:49 So I think if you're a lawyer, if you're a successful person, you know, you could be a target and you may not know it. Patrick, I I wanna thank and commend you. I know this has been a long trying journey and your courage and bravery and vulnerability and speaking openly about it in the hopes that someone else doesn't have to go through what you've gone through. And that the legal system, how police investigate things or or don't you know, just automatically leaving one person in a split second, helping to bring some light to all those issues and bring change.

56:29 What's the best way for people to connect with you or learn more about your coaching or or what have you? Yeah, I, that's a great question. Thank you, Andy. I mean, connecting via LinkedIn, I think would, is, would be amazing. I can share that with you. But you know, I do think that that's the best way that to communicate. And in fact, I, you know, I, I, I want to continue this work and I want to continue this messaging and, and being proactive and in this community to help, to help men to help the global community at large that want to discuss this, want to have some good dialogue about what's going on. Awesome. Again, thanks Patrick for joining us today. Thanks everyone for listening to us. Please visit realmanfield.org.

57:14 We'll have a blog post for this episode. We'll have links to various resources, books, support mentioned. Wherever you're discovering Real Man Field, please subscribe, follow, like, share this with somebody, post, review or comment. And indeed, this is an important episode to share with someone that you think might possibly be in a similar situation like this, having gone through it or being in the middle of it. And if you need more support around this, I invite you to book some time with me, visit theandygrant.com/talk, have a free clarity call with me, and we'll see if there's anything I can offer you other pointers beyond if if something in this conversation wasn't enough to get you to the help you need and deserve, I'm glad to talk to you. And until next time, be good to yourself.