Breaking the Stigma: Walker Ferguson on Men's Wellness

0:00 Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel. I'm your host, author, coach and healer, Andy Grant. You can visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me. Real Men Feel reminds men that they are human beings and have the right to experience and express all of their emotions. We have conversations that most men are not having, but that all men can benefit from. My guest today in this glorious new year of 2025 is Walker Ferguson. Walker is a senior at Wake Forest University majoring in Economics with a minor in Communications. He is a student athlete and safety for the Wake Forest football team. Walker has learned to balance academics, athletics and entrepreneurship because he is also the Co founder and CEO of Ascend, a meditation and Wellness app designed to help people elevate their mental clarity and overall well-being. Walker shares some of the struggles he faced that eventually led to the Ascend app. We discussed the stigma around men asking for help, the importance of community, and what makes the Ascend app so unique.

0:58 And it does sound very cool. Walker also tells us what he's proud of, what he's most looking forward to, and one thing he wishes more men knew. Let's do it. Welcome to real men feel. Walker happy to be here. Thanks for having me. So you are currently a college senior, correct? Yes, Sir, that's correct. Here wait for all. Right, wait for us. All right, so and, and you're a football player. That's correct, yes, Sir. Or former football players? Just wrapped up my senior year. And you reached out because you have, you're part of a team. You developed a Wellness app. That's correct. Yes, Sir. So how'd you, first of all, how'd you have time to do that being a full time student and and in athletics, how did you manage to fit fit a fit a Wellness app in there too?

1:43 Yeah, I know. That's a great question. I think it comes down to like 2 words pretty much define like who I am. The first one, being disciplined, just doing things the right way, showing up at the same time and you know, getting everything I got to the best of my ability. And then two, with consistency. You know, this one's great, but without consistency you really don't have much, right? So every day I just try to wake up, be the same exact person, whether that was in the weight room, whether I was in school, whether that was developing as well my staff and you know, falling in love with something and I'm loving what you do. I mean, it just becomes fun. So that's kind of how they would do it. And you know there's enough hours in the day to get everything done. Are you naturally disciplined and consistent? Yeah, no, that's, that's that's a great question. In high school.

2:28 No, like not at all, to be honest with you. You know, I got to college. It was one of the things like when you're in high school, right? Like if you were like, you know, you're a little sick or you got a cold or something, you could sleep in a little bit, right? Your dad could call you in and you could go like, hey, you know, you're good, you know, go to their next class. And college is not like that at all. So like it was football Wake Forest with PowerPoint football, you have a lift at 5:30, like you're there at 5:30 on the roller. Like you have questions asked, like doesn't matter if you get a cold, sick, flu, like whatever, right? So early on it was definitely pretty tough, like mitigating that, like learning how to, you know, just show up like on time every day and given my full effort, you know, no matter how I was feeling. So without football, you know, that was a big fan from April point from me for sure. And and was football alive in high school? Oh, absolutely.

3:14 I I grew up playing. I was playing football since I was like in second grade and I think I started playing pack one, like third. So it's been like my entire life. But it actually wasn't my first love, though. My first love was lacrosse. Loved playing lacrosse, loved the sport, loved everything about it. Yeah, I know football in lacrosse in high school and just love being around the ball. So. So with all that going on, why did you want to develop a Wellness app? Yeah, no, another great question to backtrack a little bit back in the summer of 2021, we get we got in here for Co Paul before camp and I met my business partner Hampton. He's also like my brother and my best friend. But we kind of had, we had a very similar story. Both of our moms, the Realtors, both of our dad came from like farming backgrounds. He has a family in the middle of nowhere in Georgia. Mine's in like Halifax, Virginia. And it was just like like a mass made in heaven, right? That like it's a beautiful friendship to form. Long story short, Hampton and I was kind of like bounced ideas off each other.

4:09 You know, we're like, oh, we could do a brewery, you know, we could invent this, invent this, right? Nothing ever kind of stuck. And then, you know, Fast forward a little bit, sophomore year comes around and we're both going through a tough time, right? And that's what another thing too is like, I really liked your podcast and I like the way that you guys bring emotions and like raw authenticity, the way men feel because it's so important and it's not talked about it enough. So appreciate you for that. But getting back to that, you know, software was tough for me. You know, you're not playing football, right? I'm couldn't be going, playing scout team, not traveling, like farthest thing from touching the field. And it's the same way, you know, things in school weren't going right. You know, grades, the Wake Forest is a tough school.

4:49 You know, a lot of things, you know, on the home front, when I was with the relationships, just family things, it was just it was a tough time, you know, and you know, I didn't really take a step back to be grateful for all my money, blessings in my life. I didn't know what mindfulness was. I didn't really live in the present moment. I either lived in the past, which is depression, right, or in the future, which is anxiety. I was just really, it was tough and Hampton was kind of with that through me. I'm so thankful that God put him in my life to go through those struggles together. When we started meditating, I'm a Christian guy, so I'm I'm read scripture and meditate on the word. And Hampton, you know, really got big into Marcus Aurelius reading the book of meditation, just learning how to meditate different techniques. After sophomore year, he transferred to University of Georgetown. I stayed at weight and, you know, we just continue to meditate, continue to grow in our relationship and mindfulness, taking a step back, start a gratitude journal that brought us out of some very tough times in life, right? Just being president, being thankful. So Fast forward to January of last year. He called me and said, Walker, I got the solution. He's like, I know what we're going to do. I was like, what's that?

5:49 And he's like, you know, you use that calm. I used to have head space. And we both love them, right? I'm like, yeah, they're great. And he's like, what if we create an app that was tailored to the individual user, like a personalization app that where you can get your own meditation on the spot for whatever you're going through? I'm like, yeah, dude, like that sounds unbelievable, but you know, that's like how we do it. So a lot of things fell into place. We met some unbelievable developers. Shout out to Colin Grave and Gordon Granbush, they both MVP this summer, 2 unbelievable students in Georgetown. And over the summer, we really just grinded like we were putting in long days. I was in New York at the time. We were all spread out and just built this app using artificial intelligence in the right in the right way, you know, to help people with what they're going through. So to answer your question, I know I'm glad that. But in short, the reason we created this app was to help people who don't have to research, don't know where to go.

6:44 Because me personally, Hampton personally, we were going through so much. That's sophomore year. We didn't we didn't know where to go. And you know, that's another thing while they really love your podcast is like men don't really have that resource. As a man, you got to be like tough, like you don't want to talk about, you know, these these real feelings and emotions. And that's kind of like how the idea started and we've grown a lot from there and now we're on the out store stuff. So. You're you're out. You're at least you're available. Yes, Sir, We did our beta testing, you know, in September and we got on the App Store about 3 weeks ago. So we're on the iOS, just the App Store right now. We're about two months from the Google Play Store, So if you search up with send meditations you can find the app. And prior to that sophomore year, prior to those, those difficulties with, with school relationships and, and not playing ball like you're used to, had your life pretty much been smooth sailing, you know, emotionally and mentally? To be honest with you, I would say yes, for the most part. You know, I'm very blessed.

7:39 I grew up in a great household, 2 beautiful sisters. So I love the death. And you know, I went to church every Sunday, the family and you know, everything kind of went right in high school. You know, it's like, you know, they're growing up, you know, playing sports, you know, doing great, you know, just showing up in class, doing a good job. And you know, you have that great community in high school and you know, you get to college and everything's new. It's a whole new world. You got people from all over the country and making a relationship. But to answer your question, I've been very blessed and I've had so many unbelievable opportunities on the episode. Thankful for I didn't really hit a big, you know, big hurdle. I guess if you're looking at my life in a graph until that year. So cool. And so even today or then a few years ago when yourself were here, what did you did you, you know, feel experience a stigma against asking for help?

8:27 Did did you and Hampton kind of like, have to feel like you had to, like, keep this secret, that you were struggling? No, yeah, I know that's another great question to be honest with you, kind of, I know we kind of had each other to ask each other questions and stuff like that. But especially like playing football, like at this level and you just kind of have like expectations, right? Like you got to do, you got to, like I said, you got to be somewhere at a certain time. And there's also like this, there's like this image of you that, you know, you got to be like this tough guy, like this tough football player, like those things the right way and like he doesn't have feelings, right? Like you don't. You know what? So to be honest with you, yeah, I didn't, I didn't reach out for help. I, I definitely resources awake. I could have reached out to, to get through some of those things, but I didn't because of a perception I didn't really want for people to perceive me as being weak.

9:14 To be honest with you, this is something I'm really not proud of, but definitely something to put out in the open. And you know, I'm so thankful for my journey and what I went through to get to where I am today. So looking back now at the resources you had to cultivate the thing, your resilience, do you think you were weak? No, I don't. Great. I think that, you know, I know I don't. I think, I think, I, I think what I need. I think what I went through, I needed to go through. And I definitely do reach, reach. I wish I reached out to people, but I want to emphasize to everybody listening out there that you're never weak and you're never alone. You know everyone's here for a reason and put your best foot forward every day.

9:57 You've got to get a plan for each and every one of those, so. Yeah, I often tell men that, you know, often the bravest thing you will ever do is ask for help. Because. Because we're so afraid of anyone thinking we're not as strong as we we want to pretend we are or think we have to be or whatever, whatever that that BS is that's that's in our heads. But. Yes, Sir, Yeah. I get it. It's almost disheartening to hear that that that young men are still like, dealing with that. I know, but. Again, in hindsight, what do you think? Is there any sort of program that would have attracted you to it? Is there something that like like what would have gotten you to maybe ask for help a little earlier or or go just beyond your your best friend there? Yeah, I think, I think community is a big, a big piece of that. What I wish I would have done in that moment was joined a couple groups, I ended up joining a group called Athletes in Action here at Wake, which is a bunch of student athletes that just dive into the word.

10:59 We have like a Bible say on Thursdays and then we do, we just all meet as a group and just kind of play games on Tuesdays. And the community is still essential because people that are like minded and people that love you bring you out of tough times. And one thing I'd say that if I could go back in time is I would have jumped into a lot of groups, community groups earlier, as well as taking advantage of a lot of the resources here at Wake. We do have a mental health and well-being senator on the football team. We had sports psychologist so you could talk to. And, you know, I would have put my ego, you know, aside back then and I would have I would have gone. And that was the big, that was a big learning step for me too, just becoming more aware and just realizing that, you know, you're not alone, right? Did.

11:41 Any of your teammates take advantage of the sports psychologist. Oh yeah, a lot, a lot actually. OK, cool. My, one of my, the guys I'm living with, one of my roommates, he, he used to go there too. And yeah, they, they help out a lot. They're great. They're good at what they do and they're they're, they're good people all. Right. So you had mentioned Ascend, your meditation app has a lot of personalization options and AI. So what else makes you makes it different from other apps that are out there? Yeah, I think the biggest aspect is that personalization piece, right? So like when you open the app, you're prompted to, first of all, you take a personalization quiz, right? So you just give it some base in the like name, like birth year and then like meditation experience and then kind of what you want the app, What goals do you want to get out of the app, right?

12:27 Is it improved focus? Is it unlock your full potential? Is it cultivate a sense of gratitude? And then just kind of ask like what type of meditation or you're used to or not at all. It's like body scan visualization. So from there, once you take that quiz, you're prompted to like this screen that that create meditation. Once you hit that button that has create meditation Big Blue dot, you can type in literally anything going on in your life, like anything like I'm like literally, I could say I'm going on a podcast. I'm a little nervous before that could give you a notation to help them do well, you know, it's not literally anything, right? It will create that meditation for you on the spot. Have you start to lengthen background and within 5 to 10 seconds while you're listening to your background track, that meditation just for you, for literally whatever you've given it will pop up as well as the personalization quiz is pretty cool as well because that quiz allows us to know you a little bit better. So you get suggestions, right?

13:18 So if you don't have anything on the top of your head and you just want something that might be tailored, good for you, it's right there. As well as the other thing that I also like has been helping me a lot personally is the sleep stories. Everyone likes a good bedtime story. And you can create your own bedtime story where you can make yourself a character, give it a theme setting, like literally trace your own story, right? Same process. But what makes us the most different out of all that is what we call meditation plan. So within the app, there's a feature where you can type in a specific goal, right? So I could say in the app, I can say I want to become a starter on my football team, You know, my fifth year of college, I'm going to do this this, and that's to achieve my goal, right?

13:58 The app will it takes 5 to 10 minutes, but it'll create a step by step plan for you, meditation plan for you to see yourself achieving that goal. And you can do that with anything. There's sub categories, right? It's like mental health relationships success, like like, right, there's a couple, there's six different categories. So for me, I would do that one that would be achievement and it breaks up in distinct phases. So I can see myself actually achieving this goal or doing these things before they actually happen because everything as we know it starts in the mark. So that aspect of being able to that tailored personalization aspect as well as being able to like see yourself creating a goal and like the distinct phases to help you. And then that's what sets us part of the most is the plans feature, but personalization of the whole because it's literally tailored for. You so these personalized meditations, these are spoken word you're they're they're a guided meditation that gets created.

14:54 Yeah, no, Yes, Sir. So once you put in your prompt, you select the voice, we have 6 right now, and then you select the background track. And then once you select that background track for your voice, you literally hit next and a screen will pop up and the background you always will start playing while it creates your meditation. Like I said, like 5 to 10 seconds. And then your meditation will play out. When you're done, you can finish it, start it, rate it, and then you save it if you like. So pretty simple and. The the meditation plan sounds like so that's some guided visualizations. Correct. Yes, Sir. So that's like when you put in a specific goal and then it's broken up into state phases to see yourself achieving that. And it's we have two sets of plans. You can either like a 12 day plan, it's 12 meditations broken up into three phases, or you can do a 20 day plan, which is what we call the longer plan, broken up into three different phases as well.

15:40 How does it work consumer wise? Is this a subscription or are there in purchase apps? Or you buy the app to begin with or? Yeah, no, so it's, no, it's a free on the App Store. So once you download the app, there is a free, there's a free tier. So you get 3 meditations, 3 sleep stories and one free plan. And that's weekly, right? Not the plan weekly obviously, because that's a couple that's like a 20 day thing. But the sleep stories and meditations 3 a week. And then from there, if you want more, it is a subscription model. And we're still, we're still trying to figure out how to, you know, scale that with, you know, the text to speech, everything like that. But as right now it is, it's your model. And what kind of feedback are you getting? Yeah, we had great feedback on the beta testing.

16:21 We sent that out to a class at Wake Forest. One of our professors teaches an hex class so and threat to all different types of majors, you know, literally everyone in the school because it's a divisional class where a Woodward school and all the students for the most part gave it, you know, A7 or above on a scale, give us great feedback and then we send it out to, you know, obviously family friends, some other groups around Wake Forest in the community. And then Hampton sent some out of Georgetown and the feedback was most of the feedback was we wish that we the voices were a little bit better, like more human, because right now the voices are off Azure AI. So they they definitely are they're good, they're decent. They could there's definitely room for improvement. Like to get to that calm high space level, we're going to hire voice actors and implement that into the text to speech. But that was pretty much the feedback. But then they also said too a lot of feedback was that they liked that it actually was like it was actually helping them for what they were going through in the moment, which was pretty rewarding for me because like I said, the whole reason we wanted to do this was because it was a resource for what we wanted at the time, what we needed at the time. When you don't want to reach out to somebody, but you can have, you know, technology the right way, like help someone, right. So that was the most rewarding piece we made was this is actually helping.

17:36 So then that made me feel pretty good. Yeah, so you, you developed a resource that people can keep private. Correct. Yes, Sir. And all the things that you tried and used or experimented with to to get yourself out of your, your own struggles. Is there a particular practice, program or book that that has helped you the most that you want you want to share? The Bible, Yeah. No, that's the that's the book of life, the greatest love story I've ever written. And if anyone's ever you're struggling with anything, I'd encourage you to pick it up. Start in John. You just read. I mean it's and celebrate it. That's still just give you peace. The way I want to live my life is in Quorum DAO, which that means like living in the presence of God. So yeah, definitely get in the word. But outside of that, you know, there's there's a lot of great resources out there.

18:30 You know, whether that like if you're a young kid, like you're in my shoes, it's a college guy or you're in a high schooler, you know, we're still attached to our phones, unfortunately, because that's, you know, that's the generation we grew up in. Social media is very prominent right now. So even if you don't use a send, use an app like headspace, use an app like call experiment, breathwork, insight timer, find the app that's right for you. And these apps, they're great because they're, you can download them in a couple of seconds on your phone and become more mindful and just accelerate. I think another thing too, that I'd say is find a groove. You know, community is really important and like, like literally what you're doing right now, your podcast is amazing.

19:10 You're spreading awareness and that's that's really important. So I'd encourage anybody, you know, just to never be afraid to ask for help, never be afraid to speak and join a group and just grow together because at the end of the day, life's about relationships. I truly believe that. So, you know, continue to grow each other every day and you know, you'll get to where you want to be. You're never alone. Earlier we talked about the, the stigma and you, you believed you had to act, not act. You had to be the the tough football player and and not risk any weakness. Was that something that was consciously taught to you or picked up by peers? Or, you know, how do you think that that came to be your mindset? Yeah, no, that's, that's another great question. I think it's, it's you're, you know, you're especially the kid, you're probably in your environment, right, Who you're hanging out with, what you're being taught. That kind of shapes, you know.

20:00 Your mindset, right, because when you're growing up, your mind is such a sponge, especially as a kid and you know, always just trying to, I think that like with society too, like just trying to fit in, just be like the cool kid per SE and as well as like with coaches, you know, like just make like football's a business, especially in college, right? Like you got to do things a certain way or else you're not playing, you're not coming back. So I would say that, you know, that stigma of being a football player of, you know, trying to be something you're not, there's like cool kids, like trying to fit into like the popular group that creates a false sense of the ego. And I think that drove my ego, especially as you know, until I got to myself until it like, I really got it broken down until the Lord like broke that.

20:47 And I feel like once you lose that ego, you become a lot more mindful and you become more present. That's when you like, you truly like wake up and you realize, you know what, we're here to serve one another. We're here to love one another. And you know, at the end of the day, it's one love, right? So when I walk around and say, I just want to smile, give everyone a handshake, give them a hug and just tell them that they're loved. And, you know, before I didn't really have that because I was, I was blind right to being able to wake up, you know, losing that sense of ego. I mean, that's that's the best thing that ever happened to me. Does anything come to top of mind if I ask you about one thing you wish more men knew?

21:28 One thing I wish more men knew, I think there's a lot of things. I think the first one is I wish more men knew how to like how important it is to read books. I think there's a lot of there's a lot of really good writing out there, especially from a lot of old writers that passed on a lot of wisdom. And I think especially with the guys that are my age, they don't like reading books, you know, and that's cool. Listen to an audio book. But I think learning from as many people as you can and kind of their experiences, what they went through cannot. You don't want to really steal the way they think, but it can reshape the way you think. And that's something that can only help you and grow up. The other thing too, that I want to mention about that is someone that I actually read were pretty recently that I think could help out a lot of men is I was reading a book.

22:15 It's called the seven habits of highly effective people. And he talks about the 7th habit, right? So he talks about these first six and these first six habits are great. They kind of formulate, you know, how basically be successful in life. And the 7th habit is all about self-care, like taking care of yourself, right? And he breaks it up into four distinct phases. He he says you got your emotional, emotional and your social, you got your physical, you got your mental and you got your spiritual and you got to recharge each one of these batteries to be able to function in your life to do the best of your ability, right? I really like started thinking about thinking at the heart and I'm like, what does that look like? So I would tell men to take care of those four aspects of their life, whether that's the physical, go on a walk, like if you like lifting weights, lift weights, you like, you want to do some push ups, your house, do that great.

23:01 But that will set you up to be able to think and clearly the rest of your day, right? So I'll take care of the physical walk in nature. The trees are beautiful, you know, and then it's take care of the mental. That's reading books, that's doing what we're doing now, networking, like building these relationships, which also fits into the social and the emotional, which is, you know, build your network, talk to more people, and just take care of yourself. You know, strengthen your emotional intelligence there. And then the most important in my opinion, is the spiritual, you know, whether if you're a Christian, get in the word. If you're not, find a way to meditate, become connected, find your higher sense of purpose, why you're on this earth. Find your why.

23:41 And that will carry you anywhere you want to go. So I would tell men to take care of those four distinct phases, to elevate themselves and those around them and just serve one another. At the end of the day, just be serving leadership. Excellent Walker. What are you most proud? Of most proud of the thing I'm the most proud of, I would say is my buddy Michael Kern. He was a quarterback here at Wake Forest. He is one of the most Christian guys you'll ever meet. He's so spiritually gifted, so wise, and he's somebody that I admire and I look up to every day truthfully.

24:26 And, you know, when I was in those tough times, I didn't really have this like we was. He was always there for me. He showed me love, tried to bring me up, and he broke me out of some dark harms through that community aspect, right. And this year especially, spreading the word and bringing more people to like AIA Bible study. The greatest compliment I ever got in my life was from Michael Kern. He told me that he was proud of me, he loved me, and he told other people that he was proud that I had spread the light, spread the good news and that I was following Christ and hearing that come from a guy like him, like throw everything else aside like a sand football school, like everything. Hearing those words from that caliber of a man like that, I just, I, I get goosebumps just thinking about it. So that's the, that's what I'm most proud of is the way that people say that I'm helping them in their lives and, you know, bringing more people to the Kingdom. Yeah.

25:27 Because at the end of the day, I, we're going to, everything's going to go. We all get 6 feet under. And I want to be remembered as somebody that made other people's lives better, impacted them and you know, left. I want to leave the lasting impact. There's a guy that was loved and showed love to others and that goes far beyond any a accomplishment that's on paper all. Right. Well, great. And in that sense, what are you looking forward to most looking forward? To most, I'd say growing Ascent, you know, we're pretty, we're still pretty early on. You know, we have about 30 subscribers right now and 300 active users, but it's been like I said, three weeks. So just continuing to grow that, you know, more podcasts, super grateful to be on yours and just kind of spread the words, share my story, share the company's story and kind of see where it goes.

26:15 And to be honest with you too, ever since the send it started too, I felt this like eagerness sneaks out of bed every morning. It's just like a drive and it's an excitement. And I'm just ready to, you know, send emails, network on LinkedIn, hop on podcasts, you know, read. And that's what I'm looking more important to is growing to send. But more importantly, building relationships and, you know, building relationships and spreading, spreading the good news, that's what I'm most excited for. Do you have an ideal dream vision for what Ascend could be? Yes, I do Ham and I can't let Ham and I talk about that all the time. I wanted Shen to become a lifestyle brand that grows. I wanted, I want to break up into the app into like multiple different apps, like a Christian app, a workout app, meditation app, like all different phases, as well as, you know, potentially like merchandise, you know, start our own podcast and just it's limitless, you know, with like hard work, a great team and a belief and a vision, I truly believe you can do anything.

27:20 So I'm excited to explore that. And you know, I see it really growing in the next couple of years and helping so many people with whatever they're going through. And I can't wait to continue to share their stories on our social media pages. So that's helping you whatsoever. Please send me a e-mail, contact me. I'd love to talk to you, hear your story and see how we can spread, you know, help you out as well. So that's what I'm most ready for inside for. Cool. All right then, then what is the best way for people to keep in touch with you, track how Ascend is doing, everything else that that evolves from this? Yeah, I think the best way to see what it sends up to is through Instagram, LinkedIn or Facebook. Those pages, all the eventual updates we post every day there as well as if you have an e-mail for us, you can feel free to contact me at Walker Ferguson at Ascend Meditations dot app. Also if you go to our website, there's a contact us page. But I'm always more than happy to meet with anybody, hear their story and, you know, see if there's ways that we can improve the user experience and make it better for them so. I, I said this I think for the first time after I talked to 16 year old Ruben run Acres recently on real midfield. And you had said you had heard that show too. And I really say I, I feel it again, meeting more young men like yourself.

28:39 I just feel so much better about the future. Your future will is longer than mine. And I think the the world's in good hands with, with men like yourself, you know? Yeah, you're, you're truly our blessing, Andy. I really appreciate you having me on. And now you're doing a beautiful thing. You really are. You're doing something that is a silent killer and I'm so thankful to be on your show. And the last thing I'll say too, you know, it's 2025. It's a great day to restart. We are going to do a promo too for a sand where we'll be like half off on subscriptions for the new year after the first month. So I'd encourage you to get on and, you know, try out the ad and see what we think. And I wish everyone a, you know, a blessed 2025.

29:21 Well, Walker, thanks for reaching out and I'm glad you did. Thanks for all the work you've done on yourself and then being of service to the rest of the world. You know, that's something I didn't learn growing up that how how joyful that is and how much meaning like, you know, I find that. We. Create the meaning in our life and I'm I'm glad you're doing. That's a beautiful thing. I really appreciate that. Cool. And thanks for everyone for listening to us. Please visit realmenfeel.org. It's a blog post for this episode. We'll have various links and resources mentioned. Wherever you're discovering Real Men feel, please subscribe, follow, like, share this episode with somebody, post a review or a comment. And if you're not sure where you're going, it's pretty impossible to get there. So if you want 2025 to be the best year yet for your life, I invite you to book a free Clarity call with me. We'll explore where you want to go and what's in your way. Visit theandygrant.com/talk.

30:13 And until next time, be good to yourself.