Cultural Appropriation in the Mankind Project | Real or Imagined?

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Hello and welcome to real men
field.

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This is your host off the coach
and healer and he Grant, you can

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visit the Andy Grant.com to
learn more about me.

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This is the 300th episode of
real men feel, wow.

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You know, this program exists to
remind men that you're human

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beings and you have the right to
experience and express all of

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your emotions.
We have conversations that most

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men are not having but that all
men can benefit from last

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Sunday, a man reached out to me
to the real men feel page on

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Facebook and said I would like
to appear on your show.

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Show and debate cultural
appropriation in MPP that man.

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The Crittenton Freeman is,
here's my guest.

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Today Brendan has been a member
of the mankind project for 30

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years holding multiple
positions, Center Director,

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Elder leader in training and
recording, secretary for the MK

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P.
MK P.

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USA board.
He was responsible for the first

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occurrence of the nwt a urban
Adventure.

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Now initially I thought this
subject had been played out.

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I've done two shows about this
already but it was Alone and I

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did ask for people to step
forward and talk about this

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further and discuss it with me.
So, so here we are.

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And honestly, I don't think that
we are on opposite sides enough

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to have like a brawling debate,
but but let's find out.

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So welcome to room and feel
crit.

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My brother, what's up?
How you doing?

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I'm doing great, good afternoon
to you.

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So let's dive in.
You've been involved for 30

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years.
Could you lay the groundwork

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about this controversy of
appropriation and the mankind

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project for people that are not
familiar with this at all?

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Okay, so the groundwork we take
a look at North American

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indigenous folk.
They have experienced what I

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refer to as 500 plus years of
genocide of enslavement. and

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with all that, that includes
such things as murder, rape

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torture child trafficking, and a
whole list of other things, a

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lack of Integrity, lack of
honesty breaking of treaties and

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much, much more taking, all that
into account, I would hope that

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we can all understand how they
are very protective of their

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culture, your traditions, and
their spirituality, all Under

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the Umbrella of culture.
Being that they have gone

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through five hundred plus years
when they see or experience

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people doing something that
comes across as indigenous, it

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can be taken of taken as or
looked.

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As once again, somebody is
raping our culture.

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Once again, it's being done for
profit and just as an example,

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let's say that one businessman
observes moccasins being sold by

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indigenous.
But when that person decides

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any, I can do the same.
In fact, not only that but I've

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got websites available, I can
use amazon.com, I can make a ton

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of money.
That's an example, of a

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misappropriation, ripping off a
culture.

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It may not have access the all
the, all the Avenues and doing

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it from, for money for
themselves, and, of course, not

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sharing any of that money with
the indigenous folk.

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So, I would hope that everyone
all of us can be sensitive and

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understanding when these issues
come up, okay?

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How to break it down to mkp?
Part of the history of mkp has,

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in fact, been using some of the
traditions of one is called

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animal names.
We can talk about this, where we

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are allowed to speak about what
goes on on, the nwt, a naming

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using animal names such as let's
see.

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Our founder had a double name of
Crazy Horse.

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When I went through, I had the
animal name of running deer and

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I like, I let go of that back in
2005 and there were other

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processes that incorporated
indigenous ideas and part of

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their culture.
Now, the biggest thing is the

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was the sweat lodge.
We referred to, as a sweat

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lodge, they have a different
name for it and that was being

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looked upon as it was seriously.
:, it was taken a taken apart,

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not done the right way and this
organization is making a ton of

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money off of quote selling sweat
lodges.

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So basically overall that's the
groundwork one culture.

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The indigenous culture of this
continent looking at the

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dominant culture, the ones that
have all the power, raping them

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taking advantage of them and
doing it for.

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Fit.
That's the overall umbrella.

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Okay, so I went through the new
Warrior critic Adventure

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weekend, back in 2016 and I got
my animal name.

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I am fun-loving chipmunk,
initially hated that out.

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Everyone else is bull and aux
and Powerful things and I'm

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like, really but I've grown to
really own it and and and

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embrace it and yeah and went
through the, the sweat lodge and

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It was all it was presented to
me on my weekend.

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As you know, we mkp staff were
trained by indigenous people and

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it was very nothing.
Nothing was claimed, as we

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invented this and we own this,
it to me, it was really

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presented in the very honoring
way.

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But, but, yeah.
So, I've experienced the things

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that you're talking about have
indigenous.

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People claimed that mkp has has
been ripping them off since the

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beginning.
Or is it only recently?

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It has been going.
The debate has been going on for

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several years and basically we
have some indigenous men who

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come through and they are okay
with way things are or they even

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may have had G.
I don't like white men doing

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this, but they experience
something that they had not

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within their own culture, and
because they experienced it, it

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inspired them to go deeper into
their culture.

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And we've had men who come
through who say I'm not

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comfortable with this at all and
I don't like you white men doing

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this.
So it's run the gamut.

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Now what what happened last year
that made this become such a big

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issue and result in changes with
how mkp does things when you

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look at it.
This if things that aren't

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addressed, if men are being
listened to wounds can Fester

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And then men may take other
avenues to get the attention,

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they feel they need.
So this has been going on for

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several years, this
conversation, or the attempt to

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have a robust Dialogue on these
issues and to find some sort of

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mutual ground of understanding.
So men were not achieving that

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they were feeling.
They were have not, they're not

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being heard, they're not being
understood their being.

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Ignored and feeling like, even
feel like I as an indigenous,

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man, don't really belong to this
organization.

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So they went to outside
resources and that outside

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resources.
Well, we will address this with

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this organization and they
started that by putting up a

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website Spirit protection dot
org.

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And in that website, there were
a lot of I will use the word

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allegations such as MK.
P is selling sweat lodges.

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Mkp has made millions of
dollars, and absolutely, none of

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that money has gone to
indigenous folks indigenous

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tribes organizations.
So, yeah, last fall, my

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experience of the pandemic made
everything stopped.

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So I was ready to staff and MK p
and N WT a weekend, last

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October.
And then everything got

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cancelled because of these the
spirit organization group had

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come up and gone public and was
making these charges and then

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threatening the that they would
show up at the weekend and and

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be obstructionist and and and II
when I saw making millions and

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and selling sweat lodges to, I
laughed out loud because like,

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again, I went through the
weekend.

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I didn't know what was going to
be in it.

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I didn't go.
Yeah, yeah, sweat lodge.

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Let's do that.
Like, the sweat lodge was one of

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dozens of different activities
and processes that happened over

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the course of the weekend and
and like I, I know people that

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that died in the sweat lodge
from someone that did really

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misappropriate and Sweat lodges
out of out of plastic tarps and

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ended up killing people in
Sedona and I knew people that

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rat that event.
So the author Ray event.

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Yes, yeah.
Well, okay.

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Yeah, I was, I was involved with
him for a couple years.

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So if someone had said come to
our sweat lodge, I was said, no

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fucking way.
I got when it showed up, I like

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I was scared and I didn't want
to, I didn't want to raise fear

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and other men, but at a company
with the staff and they knew

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that I was talking about Padonia
seemed like I was like, how can

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you assure me that that's not
going to happen and they did.

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So I felt Safe went forward.
And again, lots of honoring of

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indigenous process and people
and and giving again in my eyes

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and ears giving proper credit to
to what had come before them.

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So yeah, as far as selling this
event and and and I know mkp is

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a it's a nonprofit organization.
I know some people higher up

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than just Staffing weekends,
like I do and I've heard no talk

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of the millions millions that
they make and do you notice it's

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pretty My understanding it's a
pretty shoestring operation and

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its really done out of service.
Correct.

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Let's deal with this concept of
millions then we can deal with

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everything else.
The reality is when can I've

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been with mkp for 30 years?
Reality is as it grew and men

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develop their own centers, some
of them managed very well, a lot

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of them managed horribly.
In fact, they were in the in the

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red.
So this concept the making

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millions is not necessarily
true.

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Now, as an example of one that
did well for a long time was,

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there was one referred to as new
Warrior Houston or mkp Houston.

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They're no longer there, they
did so well, they were having a

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weekend every month.
And they were able to have a

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full-time Center Director fully
paid.

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How I was a center director and
I was not a so-called full time

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and the only time I got paid a
couple hundred bucks is when we

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had a weekend and do my two
years, we had 55 weekends and

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that's only time I got paid.
So mostly as you said, it is a

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volunteer organization.
So this concept of making

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millions just is not true, but
when people, Make these claims

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these allegations.
It comes across good to say hey

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you guys are ripping us off for
millions of dollars.

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Unfortunately it's called
gaslighting and unfortunately

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it's it's not true it's not
Truth at all.

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Now you pointed out something
that's we need to talk about and

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that is the concept that about
selling sweat lodges as you

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pointed out, there was nothing
in the brochure.

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There's nothing on the website
and no one ever said unto you

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come to our weekend.
Spirits of sweat lodge.

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So that's a part of the case
that was done in regards to

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Arthur Ray indigenous, folks
sued over that because they

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wanted their tradition to be
respect and kept to themselves,

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but that case was lost because
number one, a sweat lodge is not

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a product It's not a physical
thing.

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Like this phone that you can
buy, you can pass along its a

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service.
And the other reason they lost

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the case is because There was
nothing in it.

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That was being said, come here
for this sweat lodge.

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Now, you said you were familiar
with the author, Ray incident,

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resuming thing in it, I said
come and experience this.

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Wet launch In advance.
Yeah, no, we didn't.

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Yeah, you didn't.
It wasn't detailed.

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Yeah.
You do not know part of many of

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these experiential weekends.
You don't know what you're

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getting into.
So there's an arts and craft

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legislation to United States
sovereign, country and vision is

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sovereign country.
And within that, that was the

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challenge that went before the
courts, Louis v-ray, I think it

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was 2009 and it was decided in
2010.

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And because of those two reasons
that case was dismissed things

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called dismissed with prejudice
means like it cannot be refiled.

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So under us law.
No they lost the case about

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Americans will not be able to do
sweat lodges.

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So now where are we though?
With all of that, okay, so our

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lks lodge-keeper society, the
ones who perform the sweat

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lodges How did they get to that
point?

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Well, in the very, very
beginning one of our Founders

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had experienced, a sweat lodge
and thought, hey, we need to

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make this a part of our weekend.
So he did do what you might.

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Look at is the disrespectful
thing, mean not really knowing

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much of anything about and just
what do you call it winging it

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totally literally, and for other
cultures, that's considered very

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disrespectful.
However along the way other

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folks a part of the sweat lodge
connected with indigenous folks

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within the who were doing also
doing sweat lodges, and there

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became a gifting a passing along
of the tradition.

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Here's where it gets dicey.
You have some indigenous folks,

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that's a part of their
spirituality, their culture,

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00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,400
what they call culture of
generosity to pass along these

227
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,900
things. and then you have others
who say, no, we don't want the

228
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:25,900
dominant culture outside of
indigenous to be touching our,

229
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,800
our, our traditions, Who's
right?

230
00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,900
Who's wrong?
Who's right, who's wrong.

231
00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:39,600
So, realistically and KP is
correct and what they have been

232
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,300
doing because there is no
standard.

233
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:45,600
There is no agreement between
the Sovereign Nations.

234
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:48,500
You can't do this here in
America.

235
00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:53,000
No, there's no such agreement.
So, and, and the gift was passed

236
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,100
along and the men of the large
lodge-keeper Society are also

237
00:14:57,100 --> 00:14:59,800
passing the gift against the
culture of generosity.

238
00:15:00,500 --> 00:15:03,700
So, they're not doing anything
wrong, they have not done

239
00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:06,100
anything wrong.
Now, that is not necessarily the

240
00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:14,300
opinion of many indigenous men.
I phrase it as they don't like

241
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:18,400
white men doing this.
That's how I phrase it and

242
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,900
that's how I'm looking at.
They don't like white men doing

243
00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:25,300
this.
And in that I looked further and

244
00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:31,000
I say there's some Shadow here.
Is a plenty of things in this

245
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,200
life that I don't like people
doing no one's going to change

246
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,500
to make me happy.
But what they did then is they

247
00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:42,100
got together with the group
called themselves, the Council

248
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:46,100
of Spirit, and the council
Spirit put up that website and

249
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:50,500
then within the organization, we
were fighting amongst ourselves.

250
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,000
With an MK P within mkp.
We were fighting amongst

251
00:15:55,000 --> 00:16:00,000
ourselves and with that going on
within the organization and with

252
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:05,600
this alleged perceived, this
illusion of protests and

253
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,000
lawsuits.
That's where our board of

254
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:13,400
directors, says timeout.
We need to really just stop and

255
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,800
we need to really get ahold of
what's going on, which was a

256
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:23,200
smart thing to do at the time.
So, looking at it, though, there

257
00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:24,300
are large.
Keep the people.

258
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,400
Did they do anything wrong?
No, they didn't.

259
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:31,400
Here's some of the problems we
didn't give any sir in my

260
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,400
opinion.
We have not given any support to

261
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,000
our lodge-keeper got men, as as
in saying, man, you have done.

262
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,900
Nothing wrong.
And we support what you're

263
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:45,500
doing.
We are we have been giving in to

264
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:48,800
Spirit pretty much with
everything they want.

265
00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:53,300
First thing, I consider that
being held hostage poor

266
00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:55,600
negotiations.
That's just my opinion in my

267
00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,900
judgment.
The shadow here is What is real

268
00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:06,500
and what is perceived?
Are we really doing something

269
00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:10,800
dishonest and making a ton of
money or are we not?

270
00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:12,900
I look at as.
No.

271
00:17:13,099 --> 00:17:17,200
The money factor is not there.
We're not doing this to make

272
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,700
money and in fact we're not
making money so the whole

273
00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:24,500
appropriation and
misappropriation is not

274
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:26,800
applicable.
That's my point of view, it's

275
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,200
just not applicable because that
whole money concept is not there

276
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,400
and there has been respect.
As you pointed out from your

277
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,000
experience of going through the
respect to the culture

278
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,100
indigenous culture, is being and
was being expressed

279
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,500
appropriately.
But what do you do?

280
00:17:48,500 --> 00:17:51,500
How do you handle?
How does how does the dominant

281
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,600
culture?
Say to another non-dominant

282
00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:55,900
culture?
We think you're coming from a

283
00:17:55,908 --> 00:18:00,000
wounded place.
What you're saying is not really

284
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,500
reality.
It's not happening.

285
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,800
We think you're acting out from
a wound.

286
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,600
To be easy for me to say because
I'm not part of the dominant

287
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,000
culture as a black as a
so-called black man.

288
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,500
But is the dominant culture
actually comfortable saying

289
00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:19,100
something like that to the
non-dominant culture?

290
00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:24,200
No, not yet, they don't know how
to express, something like that

291
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:29,200
in a positive fashion.
That's also setting appropriate

292
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,300
boundaries but also making that
statement and as you pointed out

293
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:37,600
there was all this fear fear of
protest fear of lawsuits, there

294
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,100
was never ever any chance of a
lawsuit as you pointed out from

295
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,500
me.
Arthur a incident.

296
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:49,400
There was a lawsuit back then it
lost they lost that they cannot

297
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,000
refile.
That the other part was there

298
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:58,900
were inaccuracies being
presented to mkp concerning the

299
00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:03,000
United Nations declarations that
are in support of indigenous

300
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,600
cultures.
Briefly those declarations are

301
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:11,400
non-binding.
So therefore as a non-binding

302
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:15,500
declaration, we have not
violated anything as an

303
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:21,100
organization mkp had not engaged
in any type of contract in

304
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:25,100
regards to these declarations.
So, again, we're not in

305
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:30,100
violation, but we were having
men within the organization and

306
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:33,800
the council that Spirit saying
to us, you violated our rights,

307
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,500
you'd violated our culture and
it's not true.

308
00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:39,800
We haven't.
Mkp has not done any violations

309
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,300
now, within the concept of all
that.

310
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:46,500
Is absolutely nothing.
Wrong with an organization

311
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,900
saying to itself and saying, to
his membership, We choose to be

312
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:56,700
sensitive to the history of
what's going on in this country.

313
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:03,400
And as such, we want to make
modifications, that will support

314
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,600
the cultures of all people to
whom we offer this gift of

315
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:12,000
initiation.
Now, that's, I think that's a

316
00:20:12,008 --> 00:20:14,800
pretty win-win statement to
make.

317
00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:18,400
I haven't heard that come from
our, from our leadership, from

318
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:23,000
our board of directors, It's
been kind of a shaming and

319
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,200
blaming toward large launch
keeper guys, which I don't like.

320
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:32,200
And they've got no blessing of
support for all the committed

321
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,900
work.
They've done for all these years

322
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:38,200
and we are we are an
organization that has the high

323
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,300
principle of Integrity.
Integrity is honesty and a high

324
00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:45,300
moral code.
And when someone comes at us,

325
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,700
with lies misrepresentations and
exaggerations, I believe we

326
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:52,700
should say hold on a second.
That's not true.

327
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:56,100
No, no, no.
We have not made Millions.

328
00:20:56,700 --> 00:20:58,900
No.
No, we are not in violation.

329
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:04,200
However, we aren't choosing to
make modifications because we

330
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,100
want to be sensitive to all
cultures and be supportive in

331
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:13,700
terms of the gift that we are
offering to all cultures.

332
00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:19,300
It's nothing wrong with saying
that way and that's that's where

333
00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:21,800
I'm at.
Let me make a very good point.

334
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,600
Here in terms of cultural
appropriation, we are in this

335
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,000
Melting Pot, called the United
States of America Appropriations

336
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,500
going to happen all over the
place.

337
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,900
As an example.
Eric Clapton plays the Blues.

338
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,700
He's a blues guitars made
millions of dollars off of it.

339
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,200
The Beatles.
Always said they got a lot of

340
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,700
their inspiration from black
music.

341
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:51,300
Little Richard.
Made millions of dollars for

342
00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:55,400
them, perhaps you for the people
who are running their business,

343
00:21:56,500 --> 00:22:00,100
but cultural appropriation is
going to happen.

344
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:04,000
Now, there is some, some folks,
as an example, who hate black

345
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,300
folks, who hate Elvis Presley,
who will come right out and say

346
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:10,000
he just ripped off black people,
he was just imitating black.

347
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,400
People hate Elvis Presley and
then there are others musicians.

348
00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:17,500
Famous musicians, like b.b.,
King, who are who greatly liked

349
00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:19,800
Elvis Presley.
It's going to go both ways.

350
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:25,800
As as an example, for indigenous
folk though they have

351
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,800
appropriated black urban culture
and that you can get on YouTube

352
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,900
and they will be video
indigenous videos of young

353
00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:38,500
indigenous, youth, rapping and
break dancing.

354
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,200
Obviously rapping breakdancing
is a black, urban artistic

355
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,800
expression, Black Culture, but
they have appropriate for

356
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,300
themselves.
I've done the same thing.

357
00:22:49,300 --> 00:22:55,000
Now, I play the bagpipes at
Scottish culture, obviously,

358
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,600
growing up here.
I'm not involved in.

359
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,800
Scottish culture.
I teach my students are Hindu

360
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:07,600
The very first indian-american,
bagpipe man of in do folks and

361
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:11,400
they wear the complete Scottish
outfit, we have appropriated

362
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,000
Scottish culture.
They will play Scottish Tunes

363
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,400
like Scotland, the brave or
Irish tunes and their own music

364
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,800
on the bagpipes we have
appropriated.

365
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,000
That's a part of this Melting
Pot called the United States of

366
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,400
America and though we want to
keep in front of us.

367
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:33,500
That we have it, this culture of
these people in their own

368
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:37,100
Sovereign Nation, who Nation who
have experienced five hundred

369
00:23:37,100 --> 00:23:39,500
plus years of genocidal.
Enslavement.

370
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,400
So that's why the organization
is electing to show sensitivity

371
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:51,000
and make modifications.
That was a mouthful so you are

372
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,700
good with the outcome.
You don't like the communication

373
00:23:54,700 --> 00:23:57,600
around it.
Is that a proper summation?

374
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:59,500
I'm not necessarily good with
the outcome.

375
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:06,600
Okay, sweat lodge sauna is a
part of many cultures, African

376
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,700
and European.
In fact, back in 2018, I send a

377
00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:14,000
letter to about 30 different,
Lots Keepers.

378
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,300
And I said, look, why don't you
take a look at your own

379
00:24:17,300 --> 00:24:23,300
backgrounds, your own culture,
free Christianity and create a

380
00:24:23,300 --> 00:24:27,400
brand new, sweat lodge
experience, including absolutely

381
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,600
none.
Of North American indigenous

382
00:24:30,700 --> 00:24:33,600
Traditions.
My point in saying that was this

383
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,300
simply enough of this arguing.
Let's just put an end to this

384
00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:41,800
arguing and men like to build
things and I looked at as this

385
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,900
is an opportunity to be creative
and to do and to delve into your

386
00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:50,900
your combined backgrounds and to
bring that forward.

387
00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:53,600
And use that to create something
new.

388
00:24:55,100 --> 00:25:00,800
So, now today, what they are
trying to do is come up with a

389
00:25:00,808 --> 00:25:07,700
different experience but they
were very unappreciative of,

390
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:10,100
they still looked upon what they
were doing as though, it was

391
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:13,000
ripping off North American
indigenous culture.

392
00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:18,300
In fact, I sent a letter to them
saying, here is examples of nine

393
00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:21,500
different cultures doing sweat
lodges met.

394
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,100
Mexican African Irish finish
Russian.

395
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:30,200
You guys tell us which one of
these and what do they, what

396
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:34,000
they do?
Does not infringe upon North

397
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:38,600
American indigenous culture.
Tell us, you tell us, no

398
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,200
response.
So that's when I'm not happy

399
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,700
with, right?
I believe, we should still be

400
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:47,800
doing our sauna based sweat
lodges, having absolutely

401
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,100
nothing to do with indigenous
culture, right?

402
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,800
So the changes have been made.
I imagine there's no turning

403
00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:00,900
back but but who knows so with
this process would and with your

404
00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:04,500
30, with the 30 years you're
involved and these changes has

405
00:26:04,500 --> 00:26:08,500
this resulted you and being in
or out with with mkp going

406
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:12,900
forward.
I'm in somewhat with MK P.

407
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,800
MK p is still learning how to
work with and resolve conflicts

408
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,100
mkp is still on what we refer to
as the eye level of thinking.

409
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,400
I mean mine I can quote George
Harrison for a moment.

410
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:33,600
It's having a lot of difficulty,
moving towards the we level of

411
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,700
thinking.
And as such, it has not yet

412
00:26:36,700 --> 00:26:41,300
learned how to resolve conflicts
and way too many times.

413
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:46,200
A solution by Too Many Men is
social exclusion, either the

414
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,300
person takes himself of the
situation or they remove the

415
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:54,200
person from the situation.
So right now I am on a what's

416
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,200
called a limited activity list.
With mkp.

417
00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:04,900
Because of things like this, I
will involve myself and I will

418
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,200
speak my mind.
Unfortunately we're not at the

419
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,900
point within the organization of
understanding and respecting

420
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:15,400
freedom of speech.
And the fact that people will

421
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,800
say, hey I don't feel the way
you do and I'm going to speak up

422
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,100
and I'm not the only one.
Our previous chairman of the

423
00:27:24,108 --> 00:27:26,300
board.
Brian Arab was put on that list.

424
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:30,400
I think he was actually noted as
suspension.

425
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,300
We have another person on on the
board who's now under what's

426
00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:40,100
called a three-month sabbatical?
When I'm trying to share his as

427
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:44,200
conflicts come up, we have not
developed a set of skills to

428
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,000
work with those conflicts in a
good way.

429
00:27:47,100 --> 00:27:51,400
Unfortunately, one thing that
struck me, was that, let's say

430
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,900
that all the charges are true.
Let's just say they were and mkp

431
00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:58,100
decides, yep, we've done you
wrong.

432
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:01,700
So, we're going to eliminate the
sweat lodge, but the main Camp

433
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:04,800
project is global and it's only
the United States to stop doing

434
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,000
this.
So, it always struck me like,

435
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,700
well, North American indigenous.
People there in Canada to and in

436
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:13,300
Canada, there's no issue.
So is that still accurate or

437
00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:15,600
sweat legislature or accept the
United States.

438
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:18,700
Okay?
So I believe that within North

439
00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:24,300
America USA and Canada issues
are the same.

440
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,000
Outside of there.
It's interesting.

441
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:32,600
They are communicating.
Okay.

442
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:37,900
S is gone.
However, what they are doing, I

443
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:42,300
believe, for example in Germany.
They are just taken from their

444
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:47,300
background from their culture.
And put those things in place.

445
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,000
So as far as I'm aware, they
have not stopped doing a sauna

446
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,700
best based sweat as an example
in Germany.

447
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,800
Now, some place like New Zealand
is going to be completely

448
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,600
different because you have the
indigenous culture there.

449
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,700
I know absolutely nothing of
that culture.

450
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,900
So I'm not even going to try to
speak of it and I have no idea

451
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:12,600
what they're doing and so called
sweats or even if they're doing

452
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:18,900
one. so, It's going to be
different outside of the United

453
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:21,300
States.
They have been asking about it

454
00:29:21,308 --> 00:29:24,800
though.
The council the spirit has asked

455
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,100
about our their indigenous
Traditions, a part of sweats

456
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:35,300
outside of the United States.
And apparently the phrase, what

457
00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:38,400
they're being told is whatever
is going on.

458
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:44,600
Lks wise has stopped its ended
because as you pointed out, mkp

459
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,600
has disbanded launch launch
Keepers Society.

460
00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:50,600
Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was
everywhere, or only invented

461
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,300
States and what Rich Gahanna,
who's in charge of negotiating.

462
00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:58,800
This issue from what he said.
In that December 9th meeting

463
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,200
Everywhere.
But what they're actually doing

464
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,500
post that so-called disbandment.
It's not necessarily what's

465
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:12,900
happening in, I'd States.
And Rich cahawba will say he has

466
00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:15,500
nothing to do, what's goes on in
your, because they're separate

467
00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:20,300
entities, they're separate legal
their own type of 501, c 3, S.

468
00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:23,700
Not every country has the
concept of 501 c, 3.

469
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,800
If you could create the ideal
scenario, what would you like to

470
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,500
see happen?
Exactly what I said, the

471
00:30:31,508 --> 00:30:34,500
statement being made.
Number one that what's on this

472
00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:38,100
website is not truth and we want
this changed.

473
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,700
Number two, vocally, give
support to the lks guys.

474
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:47,300
Number three, come up with a
solid base, sweat lodge that is

475
00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:49,900
a reflection of African and
European Traditions.

476
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,300
Here's a, here's an extremely
important thing.

477
00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:57,800
What this has shown us is that
We within the organization, we

478
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,400
have very poor listening skills.
We have very poor communication

479
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,000
skills.
We have very poor conflict.

480
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:11,600
Resolution skills.
We have very poor teaming skills

481
00:31:11,700 --> 00:31:14,900
coming together as a team to
work together towards a goal,

482
00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:19,800
but those are opportunities.
There's a lot of gold in all

483
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:26,000
that for us to mine and say this
is where we can improve and we

484
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,000
can better ourselves.
I don't expect mkp that have

485
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:34,400
every training program for every
solution everything out there.

486
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,300
Because that would be
ridiculous.

487
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,200
But since these opportunities
these challenges have presented

488
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,100
themselves to us, we can mine
some gold from all that the

489
00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:50,200
first weekend of April, I
staffed the first and WTA New

490
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,400
England in three years and it
was with these changes.

491
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,900
There was no sweat lodge and
other.

492
00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:59,800
And anything rooted in
indigenous culture was gone now

493
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,500
and I did it to see you know is
this is this still potent?

494
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,700
Is it Still helpful or men
growing is it, does it work?

495
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:12,300
And I'm a i happily got a yes to
all those.

496
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,700
So have you gone through the the
weekend with the changes at all

497
00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:19,600
or no men that have gone through
as kind of a, as a new

498
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,000
participant going through it at
all.

499
00:32:21,500 --> 00:32:24,800
I wish I could, I can't.
I'm on that limited activity

500
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,500
list.
So what are we limited?

501
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,600
The, according to them, the only
thing I can do is being an Eye

502
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,300
Group.
Okay.

503
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:37,000
I'm the type of person.
I'm an advocate and I will

504
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,100
advocate for situations or
people as an example.

505
00:32:41,100 --> 00:32:44,700
A friend of mine was in a
nursing home and he received

506
00:32:44,700 --> 00:32:49,000
absolutely no attention to his
situation and shortly thereafter

507
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,700
died.
During the time, he was there, I

508
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:54,900
went in there with him and said,
what's going on here?

509
00:32:54,900 --> 00:32:57,000
That you're not giving this man
the attention.

510
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,400
He's supposed to have in other
words.

511
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,200
What I'm saying is if I see
something wrong, I will

512
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,600
intervene.
I will speak up, I will do Civil

513
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:12,100
Disobedience but I will
intervene mkp is not used to.

514
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:14,800
That does know how to work with
that.

515
00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:18,000
So that's why I'm placed on this
limited activity list.

516
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:26,300
So no, I have not experienced
the changes With that though

517
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:30,700
there are a lot of people like
me who are not happy with how

518
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:33,200
our board of directors have
addressed this issue.

519
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:39,400
So I don't know how they will
deal with that, that descent how

520
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,500
they were help heal those
situation.

521
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,200
So that's another opportunity.
What drove?

522
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,900
You are 30 year participation
with mkp what was behind that?

523
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,500
But Joe me to go through the
weekend and no to end to stay to

524
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:58,100
be active for 30 years.
What, what, what drove that?

525
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:01,200
All right.
So, I went through, I'll start

526
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,200
the beginning.
I went through the weekend

527
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:09,100
because I realized that I had no
trusting relationships with men.

528
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,900
I looked at men as the
competition and I had to get

529
00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:15,100
them before they got me.
That's how I looked at it.

530
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,100
And I decided, I think I want to
confront that and see what

531
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:20,600
that's all about.
And I think this might be a

532
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,400
place to Do this.
So that's what made me go

533
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,000
through the weekend.
How the gifts that I had gotten

534
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:31,600
from being a part of all.
This is it helped me with my

535
00:34:31,699 --> 00:34:34,199
self-expression.
I had zero self-expression.

536
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:40,100
And actually, what's would help
it believe it or not was when

537
00:34:40,100 --> 00:34:42,199
the organization implemented
email.

538
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,400
Then I began to open up and push
myself through all the toxic,

539
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,900
shame and toxic fear that I had
and to express my opinions.

540
00:34:55,900 --> 00:35:00,600
And it was, it was still a
13-year Journey for me to find

541
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:05,700
my warrior.
I couldn't say no.

542
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:10,400
I couldn't say no to people in
situations and people would walk

543
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,400
all over me and laugh at me.
I couldn't sit healthy

544
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,400
boundaries.
With people in situations

545
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:23,400
because I kept rejecting fear
and humiliation embarrassment on

546
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,500
everything.
So this organization helped me

547
00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:32,300
confront that, and to get past
that also I've made a whole ton

548
00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:34,900
of friends who are supportive
and I like being around them.

549
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,900
So that's why I'm still here.
Now, this whole limited activity

550
00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:48,300
thing, it gets silly, you know,
I haven't staff since 2005 So, I

551
00:35:48,308 --> 00:35:50,600
can't stay at one point had me
at doesn't mean much of

552
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,800
anything.
What I do miss is, I like doing

553
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,400
men of service the kitchen work.
So I miss that, but it's not the

554
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,200
end of the world.
One of my friends pointed out

555
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,200
something, which is quite a
Larry's.

556
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,100
He said, you know, since you
been - restriction now for

557
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:09,300
almost three years, you've done
the most amount of communicating

558
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:11,000
and being involved in having
influence.

559
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,100
Did you ever had in 30 years?
It's true.

560
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:21,400
So no, they're not able to stop
me from getting my voice out.

561
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:24,900
Even if they said, we're
throwing you out here, totally.

562
00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:27,700
I'd still would get my voice out
and gets the type of person that

563
00:36:27,700 --> 00:36:30,200
I am type of, man, that I've
chosen to be.

564
00:36:30,500 --> 00:36:35,200
So, I stay around because of the
attraction of the values, the

565
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,000
promise of the values, the idea
of the values, the organization

566
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,400
espouses, and the friendships
and connections.

567
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:45,700
And I have tell me about that,
that first urban and WTA, like,

568
00:36:45,700 --> 00:36:49,300
what does that even mean?
Good one.

569
00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:54,700
So during the time, I was a
center director, I had a leader

570
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,900
named Jeff Altman and he used to
tell this joke and a joke was

571
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:03,600
we're going to do newer training
adventure and the city, and when

572
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,100
we do the trust Walk, we're
going to we're going to March

573
00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:09,800
everyone down into the subway
station and up.

574
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,400
And that was the punchline.
Then I'll said he gave me a

575
00:37:15,408 --> 00:37:17,500
call.
And he says, you know what, I

576
00:37:17,500 --> 00:37:20,900
want to do it, do what I'll
actually wanted to do the nwt a,

577
00:37:20,900 --> 00:37:23,200
in the city.
Okay.

578
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,300
Now what happened was, I had a
challenge.

579
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:30,500
We had blessed a large part of
the community who were in New

580
00:37:30,500 --> 00:37:33,700
Jersey to go ahead, Do Your Own
Thing.

581
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,900
Start your own organization.
The man there, we blessed were

582
00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:40,800
actually the movers and shakers
of New York.

583
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,800
So here I was with no
infrastructure.

584
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,600
Of support to move forward.
What do I do?

585
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:52,300
Well, there are men who were
saying, well, you know, we

586
00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:55,000
should stop everything, and we
should just build community.

587
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,800
Well, I've seen centers where
they stopped in a everything and

588
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,500
it took him two years to get
back on track to doing another

589
00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:03,800
weekend.
And I said no, when I'm not

590
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,300
going to do that, I'm not going
to stop everything for two years

591
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:10,200
and I decided we're going to do
what happens in corporations.

592
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,200
We're going to do more with
less.

593
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,900
So I said, we're going to keep
our regular schedule of weekends

594
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,600
and what's an idea?
Jeff had that Urban we're going

595
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,800
to do that, too.
So I added one more weekend to

596
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:30,100
what we normally do.
And, of course, no one believed

597
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,400
the very first weekend.
No one believed could happen.

598
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,000
So I did something unusual, try
Inspire men, I would make 40

599
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,300
phone calls every night from our
roster.

600
00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:44,900
Inspiring man and asking men to
invite men to our very first

601
00:38:44,900 --> 00:38:48,000
weekend.
No one believed that would work

602
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,200
it worked.
There were men in the

603
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,200
organization who didn't believe
that weekend was going to

604
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:56,700
happen.
I said that's fine by me.

605
00:38:57,100 --> 00:39:00,700
I can get men outside of New
York to staff and I did.

606
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,300
So we got over the hump.
I'll never forget the leader of

607
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:07,300
the weekend called me and said,
okay, you proved me wrong.

608
00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:09,000
Let's go, let's move ahead with
the weekend.

609
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:13,000
Now, Jeff was the one who came
up with the idea.

610
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:20,500
And so we found a site which was
an old Warehouse turned into a

611
00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:23,600
theater and across the street
was a park.

612
00:39:23,900 --> 00:39:27,200
So the park is where we did the
Friday night stuff and we did

613
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,300
everything inside this old
theater.

614
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:35,800
Interestingly, you like this?
The fellow who is from the West

615
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,100
Coast North American Community,
came in to do the sweat lodge.

616
00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:42,900
Now, the interesting thing is
that half the men in New York

617
00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:46,800
hated this idea.
The head of the idea, I don't

618
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,600
know.
It's got to be in the woods and

619
00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:52,100
refused to have anything to do
with it.

620
00:39:52,700 --> 00:39:57,400
My local sweat lodge, man
refused to have me to sit fine.

621
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,900
I can get somebody else.
So the guy came in from the west

622
00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:05,100
coast and he said I'm going to
commit that this is going to be

623
00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:10,300
just like any other sweat lodge.
It every man experiences were

624
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:12,100
just not going to be able to
have a fire.

625
00:40:13,700 --> 00:40:18,700
And so he was able to do exactly
that he used candles and Men

626
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:21,700
didn't physically, sweat inside
and he conducted.

627
00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:27,700
It just the same as if he was
doing a sweat around a camp with

628
00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:30,100
the with the fire and stones and
all that.

629
00:40:31,100 --> 00:40:32,600
So the commitment was
maintained.

630
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:38,500
Now, this one you'll laugh at
showers There were no showers

631
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:43,200
inside the warehouse theater so
Jeff and his Brilliance figured

632
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,500
out.
There's a fire hydrant.

633
00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:48,700
So we got a permit to use the
fire.

634
00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:52,200
Hydrant for showers.
We just had to tell everyone

635
00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:57,500
bring a bathing suit.
That was the very first and Jeff

636
00:40:57,500 --> 00:41:02,400
named it that Urban training of
a jet turbine nwt a.

637
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:06,500
But I pushed that I told
everyone, I actually told her

638
00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:09,900
what we're doing this, I didn't
even ask my counsels buying or

639
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:12,000
permission.
Just told me you're doing it

640
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,800
because I wanted the
organization, the men to know

641
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,900
you're capable of doing more
than you think.

642
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:22,900
But I wanted them to have that
under their belt, They created

643
00:41:22,900 --> 00:41:25,400
this thing.
They participate in it.

644
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,200
It was the first time and it was
successful and those have become

645
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,000
a Mainstay right though, that
that was the first of many and

646
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,200
throws for his ultimate.
Yeah.

647
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,100
In fact, Jeff did another one
after that, and it was

648
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:40,400
specifically for Orthodox,
Jewish men, which he did.

649
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:45,000
I believe in the, I think I'm
still called greater Washington

650
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,100
Center.
What do they call it now?

651
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:51,600
I can't remember but he did a
specifically for Orthodox,

652
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,700
Jewish man.
So Creek, is there anything else

653
00:41:54,700 --> 00:42:01,100
that you want to share?
For mkp, Don't Be Afraid.

654
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:07,200
Face the issues and face
yourselves is a couple of

655
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,400
Dynamics.
I didn't talk to that are part

656
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,700
of what happened, that is white
guilt and white, savior is mmm.

657
00:42:14,900 --> 00:42:18,200
The white guilt is oh I feel so
bad for the indigenous people,

658
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,400
although there's still treated.
Oh yeah.

659
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,900
We should just do it everything.
So that's what we call the white

660
00:42:23,900 --> 00:42:28,200
guilt.
The white savior ism is I'm

661
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,500
going to be there, a Great White
Hope and I'm going to make sure

662
00:42:30,500 --> 00:42:32,100
they're taken care of.
Yes.

663
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,100
Those are two Shadows that also
went up going on within our

664
00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:41,000
organization and there needs to
be a robust dialogue about that.

665
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,500
So I want the organization to
face these Shadows.

666
00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:49,200
Look at, what is the gold in
them, and the opportunities

667
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:53,300
being presented, and how we can
be better?

668
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:58,100
We can be better men and better
leaders and crit.

669
00:42:58,100 --> 00:43:01,200
Is there a way that people can
connect with you find out what

670
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,700
you're up to.
You want to have a give a

671
00:43:02,707 --> 00:43:05,600
website or anything you want to
share your website but I am on

672
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:11,000
Facebook be Crittendon Freeman.
I am on Facebook and my email

673
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:16,400
address is B.c.
Freeman 02 at yahoo.com, bees

674
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:21,100
and boy season, Charlie
screaming 02 at yahoo.com.

675
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:23,500
Well, I appreciate you reaching
out.

676
00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:28,400
I appreciate you coming on.
And Shiny more light on this.

677
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,700
I've definitely learned some
details that he was not aware

678
00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:33,300
of, and I had no idea that this
limited availability.

679
00:43:33,300 --> 00:43:35,100
Secret list thing was a thing at
all.

680
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:40,200
So, is there a way, have you
been told anyway, to, to get off

681
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,800
of that to be more active, if
you choose to be, um, they gave

682
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,700
a whole list of things that they
wanted me to do, which I laughed

683
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:52,800
at.
Basically, it's like changing me

684
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:58,100
into a Kylie different person,
which I'm not going to do. and,

685
00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:09,200
I may never get off that list.
We are challenged in our

686
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:14,800
Expressions when it comes to
honesty and we have not gotten.

687
00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:18,300
I am I support team.
We have not gotten honest,

688
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,800
expressions, and return
information from the people who

689
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,100
are maintaining all this.
So what do I do?

690
00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:31,300
Well, I can complain.
I can get a lawyer and file a

691
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:36,700
lawsuit.
I don't want to I want to I, you

692
00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:39,700
know, I got lots more fun things
I can do with my money.

693
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,600
Well I really hope that
communication opens up again.

694
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:50,300
I do hope that this is just, you
know, one step in a multi-step

695
00:44:50,300 --> 00:44:53,900
process to having a better
solution supportive of everybody

696
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:57,000
that wants to support other men.
Because that's, you know, the

697
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,300
these little debates about this
that and communication, like

698
00:45:01,300 --> 00:45:05,400
it's just deprives everyone of
That core of initiating more men

699
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,300
and helping guys feel and
express themselves.

700
00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:11,200
And they are you write this,
this should be an organization

701
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:16,200
that can just show off how well
we are at dealing with descent

702
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,200
and coming to agreements.
And and and blessing people that

703
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,200
for the work, they've done, even
if that work isn't going to

704
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,300
continue and just so many the
points you raised.

705
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:26,200
So I want to say something
positive though.

706
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,600
What one of the major things I
was doing Civil Disobedience

707
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,900
about was I wanted the Shinto
address violence and threats of

708
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:38,100
violence in our circles.
And if the about almost three

709
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:41,800
years, Dan Baldwin of our
community, coordinator stepped

710
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,400
up to the plate and he took care
of that.

711
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:51,000
He created a safer Circle policy
within mkp and you can review

712
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:56,600
that on the website mkp usa.org.
But although it took three years

713
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,800
of me doing Civil Disobedience,
almost three years, damn ball

714
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,600
went stepped up to the plate and
he made sure that was In place.

715
00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:08,300
Well, I hope other positive
changes continued to be made.

716
00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:10,400
So, thanks for joining us.
Thanks for joining us.

717
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,000
Everyone who's listening in?
Please visit real men, feel

718
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:14,400
dot-org.
They'll be a blog post for this

719
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:15,700
episode.
We'll have links to all the

720
00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:18,500
various resources mentioned,
wherever you're discovering real

721
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:21,400
men, feel, please give a like, a
follower share, comment,

722
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:23,700
whatever you can do on the
platform that you're listening

723
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,500
and always, you can reach out to
re at real men.

724
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:27,800
Feel at gmail.com, always glad
to hear from you.

725
00:46:28,100 --> 00:46:31,600
And if you can explore making
this job your best year yet,

726
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,100
having the growth that you want.
For your for yourself or your

727
00:46:34,100 --> 00:46:36,500
family community.
Look at having a freak Larry

728
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:38,100
called with me.
It's a lot of conversation, not

729
00:46:38,100 --> 00:46:41,600
a podcast and we just dig into
what's in your way of getting

730
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,000
the life.
You want until next time be good

731
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:44,600
to yourself.