Cultural Appropriation in the Mankind Project | Real or Imagined?

0:00 Hello and welcome to real men field. This is your host off the coach and healer and he Grant, you can visit the Andy Grant.com to learn more about me. This is the 300th episode of real men feel, wow. You know, this program exists to remind men that you're human beings and you have the right to experience and express all of your emotions. We have conversations that most men are not having but that all men can benefit from last Sunday, a man reached out to me to the real men feel page on Facebook and said I would like to appear on your show. Show and debate cultural appropriation in MPP that man. The Crittenton Freeman is, here's my guest. Today Brendan has been a member of the mankind project for 30 years holding multiple positions, Center Director, Elder leader in training and recording, secretary for the MK P. MK P.

0:47 USA board. He was responsible for the first occurrence of the nwt a urban Adventure. Now initially I thought this subject had been played out. I've done two shows about this already but it was Alone and I did ask for people to step forward and talk about this further and discuss it with me. So, so here we are. And honestly, I don't think that we are on opposite sides enough to have like a brawling debate, but but let's find out. So welcome to room and feel crit. My brother, what's up? How you doing? I'm doing great, good afternoon to you. So let's dive in. You've been involved for 30 years. Could you lay the groundwork about this controversy of appropriation and the mankind project for people that are not familiar with this at all?

1:30 Okay, so the groundwork we take a look at North American indigenous folk. They have experienced what I refer to as 500 plus years of genocide of enslavement. and with all that, that includes such things as murder, rape torture child trafficking, and a whole list of other things, a lack of Integrity, lack of honesty breaking of treaties and much, much more taking, all that into account, I would hope that we can all understand how they are very protective of their culture, your traditions, and their spirituality, all Under the Umbrella of culture. Being that they have gone through five hundred plus years when they see or experience people doing something that comes across as indigenous, it can be taken of taken as or looked.

2:31 As once again, somebody is raping our culture. Once again, it's being done for profit and just as an example, let's say that one businessman observes moccasins being sold by indigenous. But when that person decides any, I can do the same. In fact, not only that but I've got websites available, I can use amazon.com, I can make a ton of money. That's an example, of a misappropriation, ripping off a culture. It may not have access the all the, all the Avenues and doing it from, for money for themselves, and, of course, not sharing any of that money with the indigenous folk.

3:15 So, I would hope that everyone all of us can be sensitive and understanding when these issues come up, okay? How to break it down to mkp? Part of the history of mkp has, in fact, been using some of the traditions of one is called animal names. We can talk about this, where we are allowed to speak about what goes on on, the nwt, a naming using animal names such as let's see. Our founder had a double name of Crazy Horse. When I went through, I had the animal name of running deer and I like, I let go of that back in 2005 and there were other processes that incorporated indigenous ideas and part of their culture. Now, the biggest thing is the was the sweat lodge. We referred to, as a sweat lodge, they have a different name for it and that was being looked upon as it was seriously. :, it was taken a taken apart, not done the right way and this organization is making a ton of money off of quote selling sweat lodges.

4:32 So basically overall that's the groundwork one culture. The indigenous culture of this continent looking at the dominant culture, the ones that have all the power, raping them taking advantage of them and doing it for. Fit. That's the overall umbrella. Okay, so I went through the new Warrior critic Adventure weekend, back in 2016 and I got my animal name. I am fun-loving chipmunk, initially hated that out. Everyone else is bull and aux and Powerful things and I'm like, really but I've grown to really own it and and and embrace it and yeah and went through the, the sweat lodge and It was all it was presented to me on my weekend.

5:22 As you know, we mkp staff were trained by indigenous people and it was very nothing. Nothing was claimed, as we invented this and we own this, it to me, it was really presented in the very honoring way. But, but, yeah. So, I've experienced the things that you're talking about have indigenous. People claimed that mkp has has been ripping them off since the beginning. Or is it only recently? It has been going. The debate has been going on for several years and basically we have some indigenous men who come through and they are okay with way things are or they even may have had G. I don't like white men doing this, but they experience something that they had not within their own culture, and because they experienced it, it inspired them to go deeper into their culture.

6:16 And we've had men who come through who say I'm not comfortable with this at all and I don't like you white men doing this. So it's run the gamut. Now what what happened last year that made this become such a big issue and result in changes with how mkp does things when you look at it. This if things that aren't addressed, if men are being listened to wounds can Fester And then men may take other avenues to get the attention, they feel they need. So this has been going on for several years, this conversation, or the attempt to have a robust Dialogue on these issues and to find some sort of mutual ground of understanding. So men were not achieving that they were feeling. They were have not, they're not being heard, they're not being understood their being.

7:14 Ignored and feeling like, even feel like I as an indigenous, man, don't really belong to this organization. So they went to outside resources and that outside resources. Well, we will address this with this organization and they started that by putting up a website Spirit protection dot org. And in that website, there were a lot of I will use the word allegations such as MK. P is selling sweat lodges. Mkp has made millions of dollars, and absolutely, none of that money has gone to indigenous folks indigenous tribes organizations. So, yeah, last fall, my experience of the pandemic made everything stopped.

7:59 So I was ready to staff and MK p and N WT a weekend, last October. And then everything got cancelled because of these the spirit organization group had come up and gone public and was making these charges and then threatening the that they would show up at the weekend and and be obstructionist and and and II when I saw making millions and and selling sweat lodges to, I laughed out loud because like, again, I went through the weekend. I didn't know what was going to be in it. I didn't go. Yeah, yeah, sweat lodge. Let's do that. Like, the sweat lodge was one of dozens of different activities and processes that happened over the course of the weekend and and like I, I know people that that died in the sweat lodge from someone that did really misappropriate and Sweat lodges out of out of plastic tarps and ended up killing people in Sedona and I knew people that rat that event. So the author Ray event.

8:52 Yes, yeah. Well, okay. Yeah, I was, I was involved with him for a couple years. So if someone had said come to our sweat lodge, I was said, no fucking way. I got when it showed up, I like I was scared and I didn't want to, I didn't want to raise fear and other men, but at a company with the staff and they knew that I was talking about Padonia seemed like I was like, how can you assure me that that's not going to happen and they did. So I felt Safe went forward. And again, lots of honoring of indigenous process and people and and giving again in my eyes and ears giving proper credit to to what had come before them. So yeah, as far as selling this event and and and I know mkp is a it's a nonprofit organization. I know some people higher up than just Staffing weekends, like I do and I've heard no talk of the millions millions that they make and do you notice it's pretty My understanding it's a pretty shoestring operation and its really done out of service. Correct.

9:51 Let's deal with this concept of millions then we can deal with everything else. The reality is when can I've been with mkp for 30 years? Reality is as it grew and men develop their own centers, some of them managed very well, a lot of them managed horribly. In fact, they were in the in the red. So this concept the making millions is not necessarily true. Now, as an example of one that did well for a long time was, there was one referred to as new Warrior Houston or mkp Houston. They're no longer there, they did so well, they were having a weekend every month. And they were able to have a full-time Center Director fully paid.

10:40 How I was a center director and I was not a so-called full time and the only time I got paid a couple hundred bucks is when we had a weekend and do my two years, we had 55 weekends and that's only time I got paid. So mostly as you said, it is a volunteer organization. So this concept of making millions just is not true, but when people, Make these claims these allegations. It comes across good to say hey you guys are ripping us off for millions of dollars. Unfortunately it's called gaslighting and unfortunately it's it's not true it's not Truth at all.

11:24 Now you pointed out something that's we need to talk about and that is the concept that about selling sweat lodges as you pointed out, there was nothing in the brochure. There's nothing on the website and no one ever said unto you come to our weekend. Spirits of sweat lodge. So that's a part of the case that was done in regards to Arthur Ray indigenous, folks sued over that because they wanted their tradition to be respect and kept to themselves, but that case was lost because number one, a sweat lodge is not a product It's not a physical thing. Like this phone that you can buy, you can pass along its a service. And the other reason they lost the case is because There was nothing in it.

12:14 That was being said, come here for this sweat lodge. Now, you said you were familiar with the author, Ray incident, resuming thing in it, I said come and experience this. Wet launch In advance. Yeah, no, we didn't. Yeah, you didn't. It wasn't detailed. Yeah. You do not know part of many of these experiential weekends. You don't know what you're getting into. So there's an arts and craft legislation to United States sovereign, country and vision is sovereign country. And within that, that was the challenge that went before the courts, Louis v-ray, I think it was 2009 and it was decided in 2010. And because of those two reasons that case was dismissed things called dismissed with prejudice means like it cannot be refiled.

12:59 So under us law. No they lost the case about Americans will not be able to do sweat lodges. So now where are we though? With all of that, okay, so our lks lodge-keeper society, the ones who perform the sweat lodges How did they get to that point? Well, in the very, very beginning one of our Founders had experienced, a sweat lodge and thought, hey, we need to make this a part of our weekend. So he did do what you might. Look at is the disrespectful thing, mean not really knowing much of anything about and just what do you call it winging it totally literally, and for other cultures, that's considered very disrespectful. However along the way other folks a part of the sweat lodge connected with indigenous folks within the who were doing also doing sweat lodges, and there became a gifting a passing along of the tradition.

14:05 Here's where it gets dicey. You have some indigenous folks, that's a part of their spirituality, their culture, what they call culture of generosity to pass along these things. and then you have others who say, no, we don't want the dominant culture outside of indigenous to be touching our, our, our traditions, Who's right? Who's wrong? Who's right, who's wrong. So, realistically and KP is correct and what they have been doing because there is no standard. There is no agreement between the Sovereign Nations.

14:46 You can't do this here in America. No, there's no such agreement. So, and, and the gift was passed along and the men of the large lodge-keeper Society are also passing the gift against the culture of generosity. So, they're not doing anything wrong, they have not done anything wrong. Now, that is not necessarily the opinion of many indigenous men. I phrase it as they don't like white men doing this. That's how I phrase it and that's how I'm looking at. They don't like white men doing this. And in that I looked further and I say there's some Shadow here. Is a plenty of things in this life that I don't like people doing no one's going to change to make me happy. But what they did then is they got together with the group called themselves, the Council of Spirit, and the council Spirit put up that website and then within the organization, we were fighting amongst ourselves.

15:51 With an MK P within mkp. We were fighting amongst ourselves and with that going on within the organization and with this alleged perceived, this illusion of protests and lawsuits. That's where our board of directors, says timeout. We need to really just stop and we need to really get ahold of what's going on, which was a smart thing to do at the time. So, looking at it, though, there are large. Keep the people. Did they do anything wrong? No, they didn't. Here's some of the problems we didn't give any sir in my opinion. We have not given any support to our lodge-keeper got men, as as in saying, man, you have done.

16:38 Nothing wrong. And we support what you're doing. We are we have been giving in to Spirit pretty much with everything they want. First thing, I consider that being held hostage poor negotiations. That's just my opinion in my judgment. The shadow here is What is real and what is perceived? Are we really doing something dishonest and making a ton of money or are we not? I look at as. No. The money factor is not there. We're not doing this to make money and in fact we're not making money so the whole appropriation and misappropriation is not applicable. That's my point of view, it's just not applicable because that whole money concept is not there and there has been respect. As you pointed out from your experience of going through the respect to the culture indigenous culture, is being and was being expressed appropriately. But what do you do?

17:48 How do you handle? How does how does the dominant culture? Say to another non-dominant culture? We think you're coming from a wounded place. What you're saying is not really reality. It's not happening. We think you're acting out from a wound. To be easy for me to say because I'm not part of the dominant culture as a black as a so-called black man. But is the dominant culture actually comfortable saying something like that to the non-dominant culture? No, not yet, they don't know how to express, something like that in a positive fashion. That's also setting appropriate boundaries but also making that statement and as you pointed out there was all this fear fear of protest fear of lawsuits, there was never ever any chance of a lawsuit as you pointed out from me. Arthur a incident.

18:44 There was a lawsuit back then it lost they lost that they cannot refile. That the other part was there were inaccuracies being presented to mkp concerning the United Nations declarations that are in support of indigenous cultures. Briefly those declarations are non-binding. So therefore as a non-binding declaration, we have not violated anything as an organization mkp had not engaged in any type of contract in regards to these declarations. So, again, we're not in violation, but we were having men within the organization and the council that Spirit saying to us, you violated our rights, you'd violated our culture and it's not true.

19:36 We haven't. Mkp has not done any violations now, within the concept of all that. Is absolutely nothing. Wrong with an organization saying to itself and saying, to his membership, We choose to be sensitive to the history of what's going on in this country. And as such, we want to make modifications, that will support the cultures of all people to whom we offer this gift of initiation. Now, that's, I think that's a pretty win-win statement to make. I haven't heard that come from our, from our leadership, from our board of directors, It's been kind of a shaming and blaming toward large launch keeper guys, which I don't like.

20:27 And they've got no blessing of support for all the committed work. They've done for all these years and we are we are an organization that has the high principle of Integrity. Integrity is honesty and a high moral code. And when someone comes at us, with lies misrepresentations and exaggerations, I believe we should say hold on a second. That's not true. No, no, no. We have not made Millions. No. No, we are not in violation. However, we aren't choosing to make modifications because we want to be sensitive to all cultures and be supportive in terms of the gift that we are offering to all cultures.

21:14 It's nothing wrong with saying that way and that's that's where I'm at. Let me make a very good point. Here in terms of cultural appropriation, we are in this Melting Pot, called the United States of America Appropriations going to happen all over the place. As an example. Eric Clapton plays the Blues. He's a blues guitars made millions of dollars off of it. The Beatles. Always said they got a lot of their inspiration from black music. Little Richard. Made millions of dollars for them, perhaps you for the people who are running their business, but cultural appropriation is going to happen.

22:00 Now, there is some, some folks, as an example, who hate black folks, who hate Elvis Presley, who will come right out and say he just ripped off black people, he was just imitating black. People hate Elvis Presley and then there are others musicians. Famous musicians, like b.b., King, who are who greatly liked Elvis Presley. It's going to go both ways. As as an example, for indigenous folk though they have appropriated black urban culture and that you can get on YouTube and they will be video indigenous videos of young indigenous, youth, rapping and break dancing. Obviously rapping breakdancing is a black, urban artistic expression, Black Culture, but they have appropriate for themselves. I've done the same thing.

22:49 Now, I play the bagpipes at Scottish culture, obviously, growing up here. I'm not involved in. Scottish culture. I teach my students are Hindu The very first indian-american, bagpipe man of in do folks and they wear the complete Scottish outfit, we have appropriated Scottish culture. They will play Scottish Tunes like Scotland, the brave or Irish tunes and their own music on the bagpipes we have appropriated. That's a part of this Melting Pot called the United States of America and though we want to keep in front of us.

23:30 That we have it, this culture of these people in their own Sovereign Nation, who Nation who have experienced five hundred plus years of genocidal. Enslavement. So that's why the organization is electing to show sensitivity and make modifications. That was a mouthful so you are good with the outcome. You don't like the communication around it. Is that a proper summation? I'm not necessarily good with the outcome. Okay, sweat lodge sauna is a part of many cultures, African and European. In fact, back in 2018, I send a letter to about 30 different, Lots Keepers.

24:14 And I said, look, why don't you take a look at your own backgrounds, your own culture, free Christianity and create a brand new, sweat lodge experience, including absolutely none. Of North American indigenous Traditions. My point in saying that was this simply enough of this arguing. Let's just put an end to this arguing and men like to build things and I looked at as this is an opportunity to be creative and to do and to delve into your your combined backgrounds and to bring that forward. And use that to create something new.

24:55 So, now today, what they are trying to do is come up with a different experience but they were very unappreciative of, they still looked upon what they were doing as though, it was ripping off North American indigenous culture. In fact, I sent a letter to them saying, here is examples of nine different cultures doing sweat lodges met. Mexican African Irish finish Russian. You guys tell us which one of these and what do they, what they do? Does not infringe upon North American indigenous culture. Tell us, you tell us, no response. So that's when I'm not happy with, right? I believe, we should still be doing our sauna based sweat lodges, having absolutely nothing to do with indigenous culture, right?

25:52 So the changes have been made. I imagine there's no turning back but but who knows so with this process would and with your 30, with the 30 years you're involved and these changes has this resulted you and being in or out with with mkp going forward. I'm in somewhat with MK P. MK p is still learning how to work with and resolve conflicts mkp is still on what we refer to as the eye level of thinking. I mean mine I can quote George Harrison for a moment. It's having a lot of difficulty, moving towards the we level of thinking. And as such, it has not yet learned how to resolve conflicts and way too many times.

26:41 A solution by Too Many Men is social exclusion, either the person takes himself of the situation or they remove the person from the situation. So right now I am on a what's called a limited activity list. With mkp. Because of things like this, I will involve myself and I will speak my mind. Unfortunately we're not at the point within the organization of understanding and respecting freedom of speech. And the fact that people will say, hey I don't feel the way you do and I'm going to speak up and I'm not the only one. Our previous chairman of the board. Brian Arab was put on that list.

27:27 I think he was actually noted as suspension. We have another person on on the board who's now under what's called a three-month sabbatical? When I'm trying to share his as conflicts come up, we have not developed a set of skills to work with those conflicts in a good way. Unfortunately, one thing that struck me, was that, let's say that all the charges are true. Let's just say they were and mkp decides, yep, we've done you wrong. So, we're going to eliminate the sweat lodge, but the main Camp project is global and it's only the United States to stop doing this. So, it always struck me like, well, North American indigenous. People there in Canada to and in Canada, there's no issue. So is that still accurate or sweat legislature or accept the United States.

28:16 Okay? So I believe that within North America USA and Canada issues are the same. Outside of there. It's interesting. They are communicating. Okay. S is gone. However, what they are doing, I believe, for example in Germany. They are just taken from their background from their culture. And put those things in place. So as far as I'm aware, they have not stopped doing a sauna best based sweat as an example in Germany.

28:57 Now, some place like New Zealand is going to be completely different because you have the indigenous culture there. I know absolutely nothing of that culture. So I'm not even going to try to speak of it and I have no idea what they're doing and so called sweats or even if they're doing one. so, It's going to be different outside of the United States. They have been asking about it though. The council the spirit has asked about our their indigenous Traditions, a part of sweats outside of the United States. And apparently the phrase, what they're being told is whatever is going on.

29:38 Lks wise has stopped its ended because as you pointed out, mkp has disbanded launch launch Keepers Society. Yeah, I wasn't sure if that was everywhere, or only invented States and what Rich Gahanna, who's in charge of negotiating. This issue from what he said. In that December 9th meeting Everywhere. But what they're actually doing post that so-called disbandment. It's not necessarily what's happening in, I'd States. And Rich cahawba will say he has nothing to do, what's goes on in your, because they're separate entities, they're separate legal their own type of 501, c 3, S.

30:20 Not every country has the concept of 501 c, 3. If you could create the ideal scenario, what would you like to see happen? Exactly what I said, the statement being made. Number one that what's on this website is not truth and we want this changed. Number two, vocally, give support to the lks guys. Number three, come up with a solid base, sweat lodge that is a reflection of African and European Traditions. Here's a, here's an extremely important thing. What this has shown us is that We within the organization, we have very poor listening skills. We have very poor communication skills. We have very poor conflict.

31:06 Resolution skills. We have very poor teaming skills coming together as a team to work together towards a goal, but those are opportunities. There's a lot of gold in all that for us to mine and say this is where we can improve and we can better ourselves. I don't expect mkp that have every training program for every solution everything out there. Because that would be ridiculous. But since these opportunities these challenges have presented themselves to us, we can mine some gold from all that the first weekend of April, I staffed the first and WTA New England in three years and it was with these changes.

31:53 There was no sweat lodge and other. And anything rooted in indigenous culture was gone now and I did it to see you know is this is this still potent? Is it Still helpful or men growing is it, does it work? And I'm a i happily got a yes to all those. So have you gone through the the weekend with the changes at all or no men that have gone through as kind of a, as a new participant going through it at all. I wish I could, I can't. I'm on that limited activity list. So what are we limited? The, according to them, the only thing I can do is being an Eye Group. Okay.

32:33 I'm the type of person. I'm an advocate and I will advocate for situations or people as an example. A friend of mine was in a nursing home and he received absolutely no attention to his situation and shortly thereafter died. During the time, he was there, I went in there with him and said, what's going on here? That you're not giving this man the attention. He's supposed to have in other words. What I'm saying is if I see something wrong, I will intervene. I will speak up, I will do Civil Disobedience but I will intervene mkp is not used to. That does know how to work with that.

33:15 So that's why I'm placed on this limited activity list. So no, I have not experienced the changes With that though there are a lot of people like me who are not happy with how our board of directors have addressed this issue. So I don't know how they will deal with that, that descent how they were help heal those situation. So that's another opportunity. What drove? You are 30 year participation with mkp what was behind that? But Joe me to go through the weekend and no to end to stay to be active for 30 years. What, what, what drove that?

33:58 All right. So, I went through, I'll start the beginning. I went through the weekend because I realized that I had no trusting relationships with men. I looked at men as the competition and I had to get them before they got me. That's how I looked at it. And I decided, I think I want to confront that and see what that's all about. And I think this might be a place to Do this. So that's what made me go through the weekend. How the gifts that I had gotten from being a part of all. This is it helped me with my self-expression. I had zero self-expression. And actually, what's would help it believe it or not was when the organization implemented email.

34:44 Then I began to open up and push myself through all the toxic, shame and toxic fear that I had and to express my opinions. And it was, it was still a 13-year Journey for me to find my warrior. I couldn't say no. I couldn't say no to people in situations and people would walk all over me and laugh at me. I couldn't sit healthy boundaries. With people in situations because I kept rejecting fear and humiliation embarrassment on everything. So this organization helped me confront that, and to get past that also I've made a whole ton of friends who are supportive and I like being around them.

35:35 So that's why I'm still here. Now, this whole limited activity thing, it gets silly, you know, I haven't staff since 2005 So, I can't stay at one point had me at doesn't mean much of anything. What I do miss is, I like doing men of service the kitchen work. So I miss that, but it's not the end of the world. One of my friends pointed out something, which is quite a Larry's. He said, you know, since you been - restriction now for almost three years, you've done the most amount of communicating and being involved in having influence. Did you ever had in 30 years? It's true.

36:16 So no, they're not able to stop me from getting my voice out. Even if they said, we're throwing you out here, totally. I'd still would get my voice out and gets the type of person that I am type of, man, that I've chosen to be. So, I stay around because of the attraction of the values, the promise of the values, the idea of the values, the organization espouses, and the friendships and connections. And I have tell me about that, that first urban and WTA, like, what does that even mean? Good one. So during the time, I was a center director, I had a leader named Jeff Altman and he used to tell this joke and a joke was we're going to do newer training adventure and the city, and when we do the trust Walk, we're going to we're going to March everyone down into the subway station and up.

37:11 And that was the punchline. Then I'll said he gave me a call. And he says, you know what, I want to do it, do what I'll actually wanted to do the nwt a, in the city. Okay. Now what happened was, I had a challenge. We had blessed a large part of the community who were in New Jersey to go ahead, Do Your Own Thing. Start your own organization. The man there, we blessed were actually the movers and shakers of New York. So here I was with no infrastructure. Of support to move forward. What do I do? Well, there are men who were saying, well, you know, we should stop everything, and we should just build community.

37:55 Well, I've seen centers where they stopped in a everything and it took him two years to get back on track to doing another weekend. And I said no, when I'm not going to do that, I'm not going to stop everything for two years and I decided we're going to do what happens in corporations. We're going to do more with less. So I said, we're going to keep our regular schedule of weekends and what's an idea? Jeff had that Urban we're going to do that, too. So I added one more weekend to what we normally do. And, of course, no one believed the very first weekend. No one believed could happen. So I did something unusual, try Inspire men, I would make 40 phone calls every night from our roster.

38:41 Inspiring man and asking men to invite men to our very first weekend. No one believed that would work it worked. There were men in the organization who didn't believe that weekend was going to happen. I said that's fine by me. I can get men outside of New York to staff and I did. So we got over the hump. I'll never forget the leader of the weekend called me and said, okay, you proved me wrong. Let's go, let's move ahead with the weekend. Now, Jeff was the one who came up with the idea. And so we found a site which was an old Warehouse turned into a theater and across the street was a park.

39:23 So the park is where we did the Friday night stuff and we did everything inside this old theater. Interestingly, you like this? The fellow who is from the West Coast North American Community, came in to do the sweat lodge. Now, the interesting thing is that half the men in New York hated this idea. The head of the idea, I don't know. It's got to be in the woods and refused to have anything to do with it. My local sweat lodge, man refused to have me to sit fine. I can get somebody else. So the guy came in from the west coast and he said I'm going to commit that this is going to be just like any other sweat lodge. It every man experiences were just not going to be able to have a fire.

40:13 And so he was able to do exactly that he used candles and Men didn't physically, sweat inside and he conducted. It just the same as if he was doing a sweat around a camp with the with the fire and stones and all that. So the commitment was maintained. Now, this one you'll laugh at showers There were no showers inside the warehouse theater so Jeff and his Brilliance figured out. There's a fire hydrant. So we got a permit to use the fire. Hydrant for showers. We just had to tell everyone bring a bathing suit. That was the very first and Jeff named it that Urban training of a jet turbine nwt a.

41:02 But I pushed that I told everyone, I actually told her what we're doing this, I didn't even ask my counsels buying or permission. Just told me you're doing it because I wanted the organization, the men to know you're capable of doing more than you think. But I wanted them to have that under their belt, They created this thing. They participate in it. It was the first time and it was successful and those have become a Mainstay right though, that that was the first of many and throws for his ultimate. Yeah. In fact, Jeff did another one after that, and it was specifically for Orthodox, Jewish men, which he did. I believe in the, I think I'm still called greater Washington Center. What do they call it now?

41:48 I can't remember but he did a specifically for Orthodox, Jewish man. So Creek, is there anything else that you want to share? For mkp, Don't Be Afraid. Face the issues and face yourselves is a couple of Dynamics. I didn't talk to that are part of what happened, that is white guilt and white, savior is mmm. The white guilt is oh I feel so bad for the indigenous people, although there's still treated. Oh yeah. We should just do it everything. So that's what we call the white guilt. The white savior ism is I'm going to be there, a Great White Hope and I'm going to make sure they're taken care of. Yes.

42:33 Those are two Shadows that also went up going on within our organization and there needs to be a robust dialogue about that. So I want the organization to face these Shadows. Look at, what is the gold in them, and the opportunities being presented, and how we can be better? We can be better men and better leaders and crit. Is there a way that people can connect with you find out what you're up to. You want to have a give a website or anything you want to share your website but I am on Facebook be Crittendon Freeman. I am on Facebook and my email address is B.c. Freeman 02 at yahoo.com, bees and boy season, Charlie screaming 02 at yahoo.com.

43:22 Well, I appreciate you reaching out. I appreciate you coming on. And Shiny more light on this. I've definitely learned some details that he was not aware of, and I had no idea that this limited availability. Secret list thing was a thing at all. So, is there a way, have you been told anyway, to, to get off of that to be more active, if you choose to be, um, they gave a whole list of things that they wanted me to do, which I laughed at. Basically, it's like changing me into a Kylie different person, which I'm not going to do. and, I may never get off that list. We are challenged in our Expressions when it comes to honesty and we have not gotten.

44:14 I am I support team. We have not gotten honest, expressions, and return information from the people who are maintaining all this. So what do I do? Well, I can complain. I can get a lawyer and file a lawsuit. I don't want to I want to I, you know, I got lots more fun things I can do with my money. Well I really hope that communication opens up again. I do hope that this is just, you know, one step in a multi-step process to having a better solution supportive of everybody that wants to support other men. Because that's, you know, the these little debates about this that and communication, like it's just deprives everyone of That core of initiating more men and helping guys feel and express themselves.

45:07 And they are you write this, this should be an organization that can just show off how well we are at dealing with descent and coming to agreements. And and and blessing people that for the work, they've done, even if that work isn't going to continue and just so many the points you raised. So I want to say something positive though. What one of the major things I was doing Civil Disobedience about was I wanted the Shinto address violence and threats of violence in our circles. And if the about almost three years, Dan Baldwin of our community, coordinator stepped up to the plate and he took care of that. He created a safer Circle policy within mkp and you can review that on the website mkp usa.org. But although it took three years of me doing Civil Disobedience, almost three years, damn ball went stepped up to the plate and he made sure that was In place.

46:04 Well, I hope other positive changes continued to be made. So, thanks for joining us. Thanks for joining us. Everyone who's listening in? Please visit real men, feel dot-org. They'll be a blog post for this episode. We'll have links to all the various resources mentioned, wherever you're discovering real men, feel, please give a like, a follower share, comment, whatever you can do on the platform that you're listening and always, you can reach out to re at real men. Feel at gmail.com, always glad to hear from you. And if you can explore making this job your best year yet, having the growth that you want. For your for yourself or your family community. Look at having a freak Larry called with me. It's a lot of conversation, not a podcast and we just dig into what's in your way of getting the life. You want until next time be good to yourself.