Exploring Male Loneliness and Mental Health: A 16-Year-Old's Perspective

0:00 Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel. I'm your host, author, coach and healer, Andy Grant. You can visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me. Real Men Feel reminds men that they are human beings and have the right to experience and express all of their emotions. We have conversations that most men are not having, but that all men can benefit from. My guest today is Reuben Run Acres. Reuben emailed me last month pitching himself as an expert in men's mental health and the male loneliness epidemic. He said I've been passionate about this topic for a long time and would love to share my insights with your audience. Oh, I nearly forgot to mention that Ruben is 16 years old. Yeah, so let's do it.

0:40 Hello Ruben, and welcome to REAL MEN Feel. Thank you for having me. Last month you sent me an e-mail pitching yourself as a guest to be on Real Men Feel, which I get a lot. I don't think I've ever gotten one from a 16 year old before. So my first question is got to be why at such a young age are you interested in men's mental health, in male loneliness? Yeah, that's, that's a complicated, but great question. I I'm first of all, I have that entrepreneurial spirit. I've always been an entrepreneur and I've always wanted to build something around my passions. And I've always loved psychology as well. And so they've kind of become a junction together where they've become this link together where I can express, express my passion in a way that also benefits other people.

1:33 I kind of think my main like goal that I want to do for this world because I'm one of those weird people who kind of knows my purpose is I want to, I want to improve the human experience. That's really my mission. And one of the ways I think I can do that best is through men's mental health. And I think it's such a, it's such an undervalued like not only like like topic, but just like as a, as a, as a subject that's important to like really all of humanity. It's surprising how little it gets talked about And how like I remember actually when I was reaching out to podcasts, I remember going, there are, so there are so few that are still consistently going, are still consistently posting.

2:22 There's such a small niche. And why is that? There's like there's almost this, it should be talked about more, but it's not. And then I also, when I was researching psychology and doing all that, I came across like all these statistics and all these like almost horrifying. Like, why is this all happening? Like behind the scenes too. Like it's, it's not like it's in the spotlight. In fact, a lot of the research I've found has only happened really in the past 15 years. There's not a lot of like this hasn't been like a well documented thing that we've just watched go by. It's, it's happened in like, kind of like silence and darkness and only now is it starting to come out and people are realizing.

3:02 So it was really just an interesting psychology there there there wasn't some observations or experiences in your life that that made you realize men weren't being taken care of some way. Yeah, I mean, there were, there were some experiences. I am, I'm quite introverted. I, I, I can be energetic, I can, I can have a good time, but I'm tend to be more of an introvert. And I remember, I remember seeing other people who were really lonely. And for my introverted self, not always understanding like, why is this guy lonely, 'cause I'm fine. And it kind of was like this whole like flip where I realized, like, again, like this is a thing that even I was blind to and I was a guy and I had I, I definitely had people, I saw people who struggled with it, who, who would like really just carry this deep burden. And it's it, it was one of those things where I was like, I'm a guy.

3:58 I understand guy things in a way other people may not. I can do something about this. I'm ambitious. I'm willing to do something about it. I think almost to the point, like I think mental health illness as a whole, which includes loneliness, is like the world's next biggest challenge. Like we're, we're like, sure, there's still physical diseases, but we're, we're slowly curing them. We're getting better at them, We're getting more effective at getting rid of them. But mental health is worsening, which doesn't make sense. And so I was always stuck with this. Why? If we're advancing through technology, socially, everything like travel, why are we so like, I can go anywhere, I can go see anyone, Why am I so lonely?

4:48 Like, why are people so lonely? And it was that question that prompted me to go find answers. And the more answers I found, the more I was like something really needs to be done about this. Right. So why are people so lonely so. There's a lot of reasons, but I think especially for guys, the main reason is things have changed, but we haven't exactly been taught to change with it. A lot of things we saw, especially back in 1919, sixties, 70s, even 80s, we still had the nuclear family. We still had a lot of things which to the outside were like, oh, they're just everyday things that maybe we took for granted.

5:31 But now as we transition to a much more individualistic society where like where so many people are alone and not only alone, but can live, one of the major issues is that they can live in a like almost satisfied state in loneliness. It's not healthy. You're you're certainly not happy, but you look at something like you can do your work remotely and you can have food delivered to your door. You don't ever have to leave your house. You actually don't have to interact with anyone. Before you had to go to work, you had to talk to that Co worker, even if you disliked them, you know, most people were getting a, a good portion of people were getting married, especially compared to today. And so there was, there's no longer the like need to go interact with people.

6:23 And so before I was always like, well, it's just something you did. But now, now you no longer no longer need to do it. And with, with guys, it's it, it can get pretty bad. Like one in four men. The American Survey Center found that one in four men have no friends. That's, that's, that's terrible. And it's not that they don't want to have friends. It's like, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's increased by like 5 times. So there's, it's not just like the odd, there's this odd, weird group of people who are doing something. It's a, it's a global thing that's becoming such a significant issue that now people are actually like, like it has a name, the male loneliness epidemic. That's how.

7:12 That's how dangerous it's gone. And it is global, this isn't just AUS issue. So it is increasing around the world. There are some places like Africa for example, which still have a lot of that very communal foundation that aren't as affected. But Western countries take the biggest hit. For certainly Australia, the UKUK suicide statistics are terrible, Their loneliness statistics are terrible. And it it's not as bad maybe in some places where the culture is a little bit more tight knit, but definitely around the world we are seeing an increase in mental health, illness and loneliness. Now you're closer to being a child than I am, but in my recollection, as a as a really young kid, it was really easy to just walk up to a strange and go, hey, you want to play and just invent a game and you're off and running. But as adults, I'd never see people do that. So has has your research, you know, have you found like, at what point is is there a typical point where that just stops? And and why does it stop?

8:16 So. One of the main there's there's there's some stages in life where certainly where there's a dip in friendship making and even a decrease in friendships and usually the two I've seen one is around 16 about about my age actually 16 to 18. And it's partially because as guys are growing up and maturing, the sort of they become more aware to maybe stereotypes and other things that have been promoted in adult life, but maybe as a kid didn't really matter. Especially with social media. Social media, social media can be really tough on it. It's more it's more tough on girls, but it can be really tough on guys to. You need to be successful, you need to be handsome, you need to be strong.

9:02 And it's just like a repetition of you get hammered with all these things. And if you don't have those, you're constantly comparing yourself to other people. So there's that age where guys usually get to that stage and they try to embody this like, like it's not traditional masculinity because some people think traditional masculinity is wrong or evil. But these traditional norms of like providing and protecting for people aren't bad. When they get distorted, they're bad. But what happens is they become idealized to the point where idolized to the point where it's no longer are you protecting for someone, but it's I'm going to protect myself and beat everyone else and I'm independent. I don't need anyone 'cause that's 'cause that's what you know, that's what being self, that's what being other people should rely on you.

9:54 You can't rely on yourself or you should be invincible. You shouldn't have vulnerability. And these and these things usually will cause guys to compete among each other to reject more. If they were more sensitive, more cooperative, they're less likely to do that anymore. They're more likely to move on to a more aggressive and assertive stance. And that usually is when you see a dip in friendships, that's, that's usually the first one. After that, especially 18 to 25, there can be a lot of decrease in friendships. And one of the things I learned was one of the reasons why male friendships, male friendships are least likely to share personal problems male on male friendships compared to all other types of friendships. And I think one of the reasons why they not only do that, but also have such a high almost mortality rate of, of how long their friendships survive is because male friendships aren't always, but usually are based on activities like playing football or playing video games, or it could be anything. And the problem is that's great when you're a kid, when you're a teenager and that's what you do.

11:09 But when you grow up, sometimes those friendships do develop into emotional relationships where you can share things with each other. But if they don't and you grow up and you move to a different place or you're you get jobs or you get families, It's also in that activity which actually foster the friendship can no longer exist. And it can lead to the friendship collapsing because the reason why it was built is gone. So even when you were growing up, you were still getting that that traditional message of you're, you're a man, you're not supposed to be vulnerable. You better keep things to yourself. You know, stiff upper lip, be stoic, don't be emotional. Was that still the message for you? Yeah, and I will, I will, I will clarify. I think stigma and stereotypes have, especially stigma have reduced in the past 50 years.

11:56 I, I, you know, like my grandparents would have been, they wouldn't have been allowed to talk about it, especially like my grandfather would probably not be able to talk about mental health issues in the same way I can today. Gen. Z is very open. But there, even though it's maybe not so proclaimed, it's, it's still there. It's still maybe more subtle, but there's still like, you can't just like roll over when somebody you know stands up to you. You got to stand up back, you know, you got to swing if they swing at you and even if you don't engage in them, even if you don't want to engage them. Because when you look at various like types of masculinity, because not everyone is hardcore, like I'm going to like punch anyone, whoever tries to look at me funny. A lot of people maybe embody them slightly, but they don't usually subscribe to these norms of I'm just going to, you know, walk over everyone and try to outperform everyone. It's usually that they feel kind of pressured to and there can be social consequences.

13:04 You can be considered like people who can be like, you're unmanly, you're not, you're not a man or you're, you can be excluded because people are like, well, we don't want to, we don't want to be with you. You're not a man. And it's almost as if manhood has to be earned. Whereas maybe maybe with girls it's a little bit more given I don't, there's no like claim I, I that's just like an opinion of mine. I don't necessarily think there's, I can change. There are certainly standards girls have to meet, but for guys it's like you can definitely not be a man by society's standards and it can be really harsh on your mental health. Yeah, so how does loneliness manifest in physical and mental health for men?

13:50 So one of the things 'cause there are about 3, there are kind of three myths of loneliness and one of them is that loneliness and depression are the same thing. A lot of the times when you, in my experience, when I've asked someone, they either say they don't know or they say something like loneliness is when loneliness is when you feel sad but you don't have anyone around you. And depression is when you feel sad and you do have someone else around you. And that's not true. You can certainly have no nobody around you. I think what's important to know about how loneliness works, to understand why and how like what mental and physical things show up is that loneliness is a subjective emotional experiment, experience of feeling disconnected from others, even if you're with other people. And that's, that's a big thing.

14:45 People think that you're surrounded by people, you know, you have tons of friends, so you're clearly not lonely, but you can be lonely even if you have lots of people around you. And so loneliness is silent. Nobody, most people don't realize loneliness. It's hard to see. Depression usually comes along with loneliness. So that's the main, I'd say in mental, the main thing that comes around is depression. What's also really important to note is there was a, there was a research study that found loneliness and depression have separate symptoms. For example, if you're feel like you're not connected to other people, that's not the same as feeling a lack of energy or anhedonia or something where you have a loss of like pleasure and basic things in life. So they're not, they don't have, they don't have the same symptoms.

15:36 Whereas you look at anxiety, anxiety has a lot of symptoms that cause depressive symptoms or correlate with them or influence them in some way. But loneliness is a very clear separate thing. But loneliness is incredibly influenced by depression, and loneliness can influence depression. Depression can show up a lot, especially when you withdraw from yourself and you become, you know, you try to withdraw from other people. It can become a cycle. They're really dangerous together. Depression and loneliness together are the number. Like the symptoms that come from depression and loneliness are the highest indicators of suicide. From what I've seen. 1/3 of suicides in the western world are caused by loneliness are said to be caused by loneliness for males specifically.

16:25 I will say so it's a big deal. So that would be the main mental things. They're also isolating behaviors. It can lead to self harm, anxiety, other mental issues. But just to clear that up because I think there's a big difference between depression is a mood disorder and loneliness is an emotional or like a social emotional experience. But then for physical it's really bad. Like being lonely is equivalent to smoking like 20 cigarettes a day. Really. It's it's that bad you it double S your chance of premature death. It can get lead to cardiovascular issues. It can, it weakens your immune system.

17:07 It like triggers your inflammatory response and really aggravates it. It's really, really bad. And that's why I again, subscribe to this belief that mental illness is a bigger issue than physical illness because mental illness like can literally mutate, like depression can literally affect your genes. It can, it can mess with your cells and how your cells function. And so it's a very, very real thing that people think, well, you know, loneliness is just when you feel like you're left out. It's like, no, even if you don't harm yourself, even if you don't, you know, think about suicide, it can kill you because it's, it's, it's harmful as smoking 20 cigarettes a day.

17:50 You had mentioned social media earlier and that, you know, the promise of it was that it made us more connected. But the reality of it is it leads to a lot more isolation. So in your view, can technology in some way help bring people together? Can can eliminate loneliness? I think it can. I think the reason why social media platforms don't is because social media platforms are inherently based off of engagement and not connection. If connections like the front and you can connect with people, social media can definitely can definitely be a way to get to know other people and get to see other people's perspectives.

18:32 But social media is based off engagement. And so the social media platforms we have today aren't aren't here to get you out of loneliness. In fact, they're here to keep you in loneliness because back to living in a satisfied state, social media can be a way where you feel like you're connecting people with connecting to people. It can give you that false feeling of connection. You can have 1000 followers and know 10 of them. You still have 1000 followers. It feels like these people are connected to you even if you don't ever talk to them, even if you don't see them, they're just there. And so it can sort of, oh, hide the part of you that might go, wait a minute, maybe I'm really lonely. Maybe I actually need to do something about this because you can feel like, oh, well, you know, someone likes my reel. I posted.

19:24 Well, clearly I'm with, I'm with other people. So the social media we have today doesn't work it and again, it promotes stereotypes or it has really harsh it it it wants the extremes it either it wants, it doesn't want the the middle. The middle's boring, but most people are in the middle. Most people aren't these Andrew Tate figures who are really radical and really loud and outspoken. Most guys are like, well, I don't need to yell and punch everyone who swings at me, but I'm also going to defend myself. So they're not, they're not on an extreme. They're in the middle. So technology can definitely help it it it has the potential to help social media.

20:10 Could become an amazing way to help people. One of the things I'm trying to do is build a platform that will essentially find people in the area and actually bring them together and connects them based on things that they're actually going to get along with each other and work well with each other. And so I think it has the potential. It definitely has the potential. And that's one of the things I'm doing, is proving that technology actually can connect to people and can actually get people off their phones and into the real world, so to say. But right now, it's being misused and it's harmful. So your your platform, is it sort of like a dating app for friendship? Kind of I, that was actually kind of one of the first thoughts I ever had about it because one of the things I was like, it's definitely not a dating app, but then I was like, but it's friendships.

21:04 It's it's kind of a connection app. So it's kind of the same. One of the things I am thinking about, which maybe doesn't push it more into that category is I think what I will do is you'll probably be paired with another person, like one other person because the theory is you don't want to go to the party if you don't know anyone. So you want to know at least one person. And I don't know, like that's kind of like the wing man, your wing man who goes with you. And then I'm gonna what I would love is to eventually have six person groups and you just go do things together. And my whole goal is eventually my like, I would be super happy if you guys quit use if the people who use my app quit it and delete it because they can go do it on themselves. They actually, they actually have friends. They actually don't like just text each other. They actually go out and do something, even if it's like playing football or going on a hike or, I don't know, reading about their favorite Star Wars movie. It could be anything.

22:02 It's just having the like motivation and desire to actually connect with people. I think a lot of guys maybe haven't, again, haven't been taught. It's a different environment, but with the same they, they've been taught the same rules, like how to play the game a generation ago. And so my goal is that, yeah, these six, maybe it is kind of like a dating app for friendships in that these, they're going to be these six person groups. The whole reason I did 6 is because if for some reason the group doesn't work out, I want to be able to take the people who are in pairs of two and swap them around. So if two people really don't get on, get along with the group, I can take them out and swap them with someone else. But you always still have that person that you could essentially like go to a party to. Because I've seen apps similar, but they're all about like, you see this person once and you never see them again. That's like, well, that's like, maybe they'll stay in touch, but there's no guarantee and they most likely won't. So if someone is listening to this and they are consciously aware of their own loneliness and want to do something about it, what what do you suggest as some first steps? I think the weirdest thing that people say is that when you're lonely, you should just go get friends. But the whole point of loneliness is that you feel disconnected from other people, even if you have people around you.

23:21 Because if it was just going and getting friends, all introvert, all introverts would be miserable. But there are people who can go an entire week and see their friend once and be totally happy. So getting friends doesn't work because it's not one-size-fits-all. I think the most important thing is that loneliness is caused by something. There's no like we're social creatures. Why would I want to not interact with other people? Sure, you know, the I don't want to get embarrassed. There are, there are social pressures, but especially like one thing technology does do is you can find your niche.

24:01 You can find the people who are like you. So the reason why I think people are lonely or why people perceive themselves as I don't have anyone around me, nobody actually connects or relates to me, is because of some underlying problem. Maybe it's depression, maybe it's trauma or shame or anxiety. You know, maybe you have social anxiety and you label it as loneliness, but it's you. You isolate yourself so you feel disconnected. But the real reason you isolate yourself is because you feel you get anxious when you're around other people. And so I think the first thing people have to do, which sounds almost counterintuitive, is like, go away and reflect. Like, what is the cause? Why am I doing this?

24:45 Is it because, like, what is this internal battle I'm having that's causing me to remove myself from people who may genuinely care about me? Why do I feel separated from from my friends and family? The first step is to be aware is to understand how how am I feeling and what is causing this loneliness? And if it is physical isolation, is it if it is because you're in your basement and you don't actually talk to anyone, then yeah, those guys need to get out and talk to other people. They need to go do something. They don't have to do what I'm doing. They, they, they maybe they do a dating app. Maybe they just walk by and say, hey, what's your name?

25:26 I want to know someone new, but most of the time I find that people, people, most people aren't living in their basements never seeing anyone. Most people see people. So after, after you've found what that is, then maybe it's like, maybe you need to go get therapy maybe and the, and the steps can sort of branch off and split from there. But then you need to take action into solving that underlying issue because once that underlying issue is dealt with, loneliness, loneliness will disappear. It's like a common example again, which I'll use is depression. But both are hard, but together is the real like killer combo. Again, it's the highest.

26:11 I think it's the symptoms of the highest indicator of suicide because it's like depression cripples you. It is. It's almost like, I like to think of it as like you're swimming, but depression cripples you. And with loneliness, you have nobody help pull you out of the water. If, if, if you have no one to help you, but you can swim, you'll be fine. And if you hurt yourself, but somebody can pull you out, you'll also be fine. It's still hard. It's still not fun maybe, but it's it's, it's a lot more manageable than if you have no one to pull you out and you can't swim because then you start drowning. So that's how I like to think of it. Depression might be an underlying cause maybe, maybe you don't get out of bed because you're depressed. And because you don't get depressed, all your social relations are suffering.

26:59 And so then maybe you need to figure out and deal with depression. One thing I will say for all things underlying loneliness and loneliness itself is the power of weak ties. And weak ties are essentially just relationships with people you have that aren't necessarily intimate, aren't necessarily close. Maybe you don't, maybe you don't see them often. It could be as simple as like your cashier at a grocery store. It could be like anything but someone you regularly know and meet and at least have a like, you know you don't hate them. The power of weak ties, weak ties. The more weak ties you have, these more like not they're not.

27:40 They're not weak necessarily, they're just not as intimate. The more of these you have 'cause you can have a lot of them because they don't take much social like energy, emotional energy, they can really boost your mental health. They can really work. The the more you have, the more likely your intimate relationships are to survive, especially like if you're physically isolated or alone. The great thing about weak ties is they're not, They're not like your wife, they're not your mother. So if you screw up, it's not the end of the world. And even, and while it would be bad, you could still survive even if it was your mother and wife. Maybe you need, but there are more obligations, there are more rules. Whereas if it's just the guy who works at the food truck that you walk down to every day, that can be a really powerful connection because you can actually get along with someone and have a positive experience with someone without having to stress out about the emotional connection.

28:42 You know, does this guy hate me? Well, it doesn't matter. He's just giving you your Taco. So it's not as it's not as big a deal. There's not as much of at stake. So it's really, it's not, it's not so hard on your mental health and your emotional, especially if your social skills or your like social muscles, I guess you say you haven't exercised, you haven't used them. Weak ties can be really, really, really really helpful. Oh, I've, I've never heard that term before. And I, I would have, as you said it, I assumed it was going to be a negative, but it's, it's really cool to see that that can be a step in the right direction. That because I'm sure the, you know, the, the, the man that feels so isolated, has no ties, doesn't, doesn't speak to the cashier, doesn't speak just here's money, giving me a walk away and eat a stucco there. There's no exchange of humanity at all, just just money. Yeah, and but The thing is you can actually exchange humanity and it's much easier going from seeing no one to talking to the guy at the food truck then seeing no one to getting married to someone.

29:44 Like that's a that's a huge jump. Tons of responsibilities. It's, it's probably not going to go very well if you don't have those social skills. So it, it may be awkward, but it's like, it's going to be more awkward trying to, again, like trying to marry someone like, and these things, they work, they help you. Research has shown that it just, it can improve your mental health, even if it's maybe it won't cure your depression, but it can just be that thing where it's like every time you go to the, you know, the grocery store, the food truck, you're like, you know, you're going to see that person. They're just, they're just going to smile on you. They're just going to say hi. And you can be like, how's your day? And they'll be like, oh, great. And how's yours? And you can say great. And it sounds like, well, why would that matter? But again, if you if you're emotionally starved or socially starved, anything, anything can help.

30:30 What? Changes would you like to see in society or the mental health field to better support men? I think we really have to get rid of the, I almost want to say glorified standard of you have to do this, that or that. You have to be successful, you have to be strong. I think I think a big issue is that with these, not only are these norms on it, like people like disappear for 90 days and be a millionaire. It's like that's the 10 minute YouTube video. You know, that's not Elon Musk telling me what to do. So it can be really hard on guys to be told this, especially when it can be.

31:13 So it'll be so opposing. You can have some people saying you need to toughen up, you know, you need to, you can't show vulnerability. You know, it's a doggy dog world. And then there are other people being like, you need to be vulnerable. You need to be emotionally open and an expert. Who I'm actually, I, I've actually enjoyed a lot of his work named Simon Rice. I, I think he's based in Australia. He he, he's done a lot of work on positive masculinity, which is it's incorporating traits of, of knowing again, like awareness, but also understanding that incorporating again, traditional masculine protecting other people isn't bad, but neither is being vulnerable. And the key is balance.

32:02 You don't, you don't there's you shouldn't be extreme. You should be balanced because if you can balance between courage and confidence and and the ability to lead with humility and vulnerability and the ability to be emotionally expressive, because things like being emotionally restrictive or being hostile to other people have been proven by research to increase depression and increase chances of of suicidal ideation. So that's not a viable strategy. Neither is we need, we still need masculinity. We can't just like Chuck it out the window. Well, there, you know, a, a couple people get extreme. So we have to end it.

32:44 What I would love to see is for people and especially in younger ages, like in school for schools to help actually show that you don't have to fight. Like anytime someone does something, you don't actually have to just swing at them. You don't actually have to fight. You don't actually have to be a super like invincible competitive person. You can actually be yourself, you can still do, you can still be action oriented, you can still stand up for what is right and speak out when people like, I don't think we should shut up and just be like, OK, well, we're again throwing it all out the window. I would love to see the balance of masculinity.

33:26 That would probably be the first thing of people getting rid And and there's a lot of there's a lot, There's no one person saying it all. Some, some sections of the feminist movement say it, some sections of older generations of men are like, you need to toughen up some drama again, social media. So some social media is like you need to, you need to stop being a like you need to stop being masculine. And other ones are like double down on masculinity and they can 'cause they can cause issues with hyper and hypomasculine traits, which are again the extremes which then get shown. And so everyone, everyone watching on social media is like, so guys are either not masculine at all or really, really masculine.

34:08 Which one am I? So that would be the first thing what I would really love, which maybe is what I'm doing, which is maybe, and maybe it's far fetched, but I think the the nuclear family might be dying out. I still think it's going to be around like I'm certain like if I ever get married, I'm certainly would probably have a more nuclear family. Like I'd probably be a provider, but I don't want us to go from nuclear family to individualism because individualism isn't, isn't profitable. It it sounds possible. Like it, it's, it's kind of again, it's weird because you think, well, if I'm only out for myself, you know, I should be able to get ahead of everyone. You know, I should be able to be happier.

34:49 But it's like we're actually not meant to, you know, burn, burn everyone else's, all, all the bridges and just sit on our island all by ourselves. So actually we are actually are meant to share and interact with other people. So one thing I would love to see was maybe, maybe the nuclear family is disappearing, but we incorporate it or we're having a new thing where we're still connected to other people. You know, maybe it's like, OK, we have like our, our close family, but as we, because we're entering a more isolated era, we have more friends, we have more ways to connect with people. Yeah, some some new, some new structure of society to replace the nuclear family instead of everyone's on their own.

35:34 Yeah, because the environment's changed. Like we have to, we still have to adapt. We're just adapting. Like maybe we're just adapting to a digital concrete jungle instead of the one, you know, the ones that monkeys do in the jungle today. Like, we still are playing with things that can be like, we're still like changing society constantly and we need to figure out what how can we live in a more digital age where maybe you know, where you don't see your friends all the time and still keep loneliness away? What would you say to someone who is struggling with loneliness, but all that societal weight and pressure of not being vulnerable keeps them from speaking to anyone, keeps them from asking for help?

36:23 What what? What can they do? That's, that's a really hard question because like I could say, go to therapy where there's a person who's not going to judge you, but then therapy, therapy doesn't always work. You have to remember, historically, therapy was first created for women. It was first made for women. It doesn't mean it can still be very effective with men, but 60 to 70% of patients and 60 to 70% of therapists are women. So it is a more feminine industry, which doesn't always fit men's needs, especially if therapies based off of how you feeling. Well, what if you don't know how you feel because maybe maybe you don't ever think about your feelings because thinking about your feelings is wrong?

37:08 Well, then it's like that doesn't work. So again, it's a difficult question. I, I would always say start with awareness. You can never go wrong with awareness. Figure out what's wrong. Is it that your dad said when you were young, like you're not allowed, Don't cry. And so you never talked about your emotions. You never let your guard down because you had some figure in your life who was telling you or some environment in your life who was telling you that. And if it is, if it is something like that, I would say is the cost of conforming to another person's opinion about how you should act worth your own mental health? Because you should net like, who cares what somebody thinks about you?

37:57 If you need therapy, go get therapy. Because I guarantee if if you are burdened down by loneliness, if you are burdened down by mental health issues, you can be much more confident, much more strong. You can get much more goals done. You can be much more successful if you're a healthy person who actually understands themselves and doesn't have that weight on their shoulder just because you like. There are people who assume that carrying a strong burden makes you strong or makes you confident. It's like real, like hiding behind some ideal that I'm tough and I don't need help is actually centered around a place. It's usually centered around a place of fear. It's actually not centered around a place of courage. Because if you're really, if you're really confident in yourself, you're fine being vulnerable because you can take a shot because you're you're like, you can take a shot at me and I'll survive.

38:56 I will be fine even if I am exposed. If it if it's, it's almost always something or someone has told guys you have you, you're not allowed to be vulnerable and finds that. What is it? Maybe you need to sit down and talk to that. Like if it's your father, maybe you need to sit down and talk to them. If it's social media, maybe you need to just delete social media for a week and be like what finds the variable that's causing it like that's causing the most damage and get rid of it because nothing is worth your your mental health decline and. Yeah, the the world needs healthier men, not weaker men. And and I think another thing I would add is goals are great, but having purpose is better.

39:48 It's better to have purpose. There was actually there was a study they did, I think her name was Fiona Stad. I'm sorry to whoever that person, I, I, I know your name. I just forgot in the moment. They did a study where they checked what was what did guys who committed or attempted suicide. How did they describe themselves before doing so? And the top 2 words were useless and worthless. So there is a again, these stereotypes like you got to be successful and if you're not successful, you're nothing. That's not true and having. Something especially we see with the, with the increase in atheism, there's also, there's not something that's much to fight for because maybe you fought for your country or you fought for God or your religion. Your purpose was religion.

40:40 Your purpose was your following God's, what God, what God's purpose for you was, or having a deeper relationship with God. But that's no longer there. And, you know, you look at America, America's incredibly divided. Maybe some of the more external abstract things that you could give you purpose are gone. And I think, yeah, being aware and finding, finding like, like your purpose doesn't have to be like, what job am I going to do? It could really be like, am I am I really meant like, it's the place I am now. Is that what I'm meant to do? And is that me? Because if it's not you need, there's something else and it's a journey. You're obviously not going to wake up tomorrow and be like, oh, I know my purpose now I can get rid of all my mental health. I can just check them off like a check box. With when you're getting closer on your purpose, you feel joy, like it's a joyous experience to be you when you're on your purpose.

41:35 Because I think especially for guys, purpose, purpose is just it's all I would, I would almost go to say it's like the highest calling for guys in life having purpose, like waking up every day. And it's like I'm, it doesn't. Maybe it's not, maybe you're not a billionaire, but maybe it's you're waking up every day and realizing I really actually impact what I do. That can get not rid of only mental health issues, but loneliness as well. Because lonely. If you can't feel, if you're making, if you're impacting people, you can't feel disconnected from them because you're influencing them, you're helping them, you're making them better. And so people's purpose is never to outperform and be other people. It's always to help other people. Sometimes it's sacrifice for other people. Fatherhood, a lot of fatherhood is sacrifice. It's sacrificing your time to provide for a family. It's or for your kids or to play with your kids or, you know, whatever it's but it's purpose.

42:36 You have a purpose. Your, your, your, that child you have or the your family is something you fight for. It's something you work for and it's something you impact. And fathers, fathers can be lonely. I think it's actually one in four in the UK are lonely. And so it's not the entire thing, but awareness purpose are the are probably what I'd say the main things are the main things guys need to. Reuben, I wonder who had the biggest impact on your definition of masculinity? That's that's a tough question. I actually, I have to say my father, my parents both had and this is this obviously isn't me, so I don't know how much I should go into this, but my my parents did have rough childhoods, but both of them I have really good parents. I, I actually myself had a pretty difficult childhood myself, but I had, one thing I will say is I had really good parents and both my mother and my father, but my father in particular, he was, he was like, I don't think he was always necessarily the perfect like positive masculinity, but I think he's there now.

43:58 I think. And we like, obviously we don't always get along. I mean, we have arguments, but I think he, he may, even if he didn't consciously impact me, especially when I was like 1213, he he did, he was a good role model and he kind of, he taught me a lot of things that are important to, to know, important to learn. And like, for example, what I'm doing is kind of weird. Like I'm weird. I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm just doing like, I'm kind of, I'm crazy, you know, I'm just, I'm, I'm trying to build a platform to get guys to connect together. And I'm 16.

44:40 It's like, what am I doing? And a lot of parents would be like, like, I like, for example, I don't have a desire to go to college. A lot of parents would be like, go to, you're going to college. Like what? What's wrong with you? Do you want to not have a career? But my parents have always been very supportive, but not supportive to the point where they're just like, go do whatever you want. They hold me accountable, especially my father. I think he was a, he was a good influence for me and that's probably why he, I do, I am quite a lot like him. So I, I think he was probably my biggest influence on, on how I perceive masculinity and it's allowed me. It's he's also allowed me to all the research I've done in masculinity, because there's a lot, there's different types, social media promotes different people, all sorts of things.

45:30 It's it's helped me look at masculinity objectively and not compare myself to other people and not go, am I man enough? But actually realize being man enough just means you know it. It just means like, do you, are you able? Are you, are you striving for growth? You don't have to. And and that's not just a male thing. That's an everyone thing. He influenced me to not be because I am competitive, I'm aggressive. So if I had a maybe more hypermasculine father, I would be, you know, I would be like swinging at people again if they, if they messed with me.

46:18 And so he's a good influence and he's he's, he's definitely made me a better person. Ruben, you're such. What do I say this? You give me more hope for the future then. Thank you. Most young people I run across. So yeah, you're an impressive young man. And that tells me that your parents are impressive as well. What's the best way for people to connect with you and and track how you're doing with your platform? X would X is where I post a lot of I I need to get better, but X is where I'm posting a lot of my insights and research because not to build building a following grade to get in front of an audience, but also it is something that you can learn. It's just it's useful.

47:05 It's helpful. So I'd say X my handles Ruben run acres because nobody, nobody else has my name. So it's that on all platforms. I'm starting. I think I might do long form. I think I might try just talking about concepts and maybe maybe it's less like scientific and more entertaining. I think I think masculine this all these problems are a lot have been a lot more destigmatized than they were like 50 years ago. But there's still pressure to conform and I don't again, I don't think we should throw masculinity should stay.

47:45 You can't get rid of it. Everything, everything has masculine and feminine energies, aspects. What do you want to call it? But you you can't just throw away half of what everything is. So it it has to stay, but how it's like a sort of manifested can change and there's definitely a better way. And so I don't want masculinity to be this really scientific thing where it's like, well, here's a bunch of data and statistics I want to throw at you. Like it is, it is, it is like, again, kind of like, I don't want to say horrifying, but like kind of it's a way to realize that, oh, this is really happening. You know, in the like, for an example, one of the things that really shocked me is in the UK, highest cause of death for I think guys 18 to 45 is suicide.

48:37 So statistically, if I live in the UK, once I hit 18, I'm most likely to die by me, like me, not by like a car crash, but like, by me killing myself. So that's, that's something I think people need to realize, but not be like, Oh no, men are men are a sinking ship. It's like, well, men have problems, but men have a lot of men. Men can also improve a lot. I think I'm, I'm all it is. It is kind of again, like sometimes you can, it can be a little doom and gloom, but I, I actually am hopeful. As long as someone I hope I'm, I like, I'm going to try my hardest. If for some reason it's just, it's not my like not my purpose or it's not me to do this, I think someone else will step up, especially because if we don't, Gen. Z's very open, but I don't know if future generations are going to become like we have AI don't know if it's like we had really, really stigmatized, like you have to be really strong. You have to be all this and then maybe we're having a brief period of what actually is it?

49:46 And then are we going back Like I, I kind of wonder, are we going from being super strong and successful to being, I mean a super strong and like invincible to being super successful and attractive. Like, and I think that's always applied like people always want to be you to be successful and you always want to be successful. You always want to be attractive and strong. Like, these are good qualities, but I don't know if this is a window of like, we actually have a shot to really change things for a lot of things, you know, for, for women as well, for men, for both, for everyone. I don't know if stigma is going to show up again, but I'm hopeful.

50:28 And any stigma, any stereotype, it like, like most things, it comes and goes, ebbs and flows. It's strong. Oh, people react to it, it goes away and it can make a comeback. But regardless of that, you have destroyed my stigma of having teenage guests. So I, I thank you for that. But yeah, everybody, I really wanted to thank you for, for boy, for all of your interest in your research and, and taking on such a, a massive problem. And if you're coming here and, and sharing a bit of, of your you and that problem with us. So again, thanks so much for joining us. Yeah, I mean, I think thanks for having me. I, I kind of had the same reaction where I have, I had the stigma of who's going to invite me on a podcast.

51:11 So yeah, thanks a lot. It's, it's, it's definitely an important matter and it's, it's important that a ton of people are tackling it and not just one person. Right. Amen. Cool. Thanks for joining us everyone. Please visit Real Men Field at org to see the blog post for this episode, which will have all various links and resources discussed. Wherever you're discovering realm and feel, please subscribe, follow, give a like, share this episode with somebody, post a review or a comment. If you're unsure of where you are headed in life, book a free clarity call with me and we'll explore where you want to go and what's in your way. Visit theandygrant.com/talk and until next time, be good to yourself.