Exploring Male Loneliness and Mental Health: A 16-Year-Old's Perspective

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer, Andy Grant.

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You can visit theandygrant.com
to learn more about me.

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Real Men Feel reminds men that
they are human beings and have

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the right to experience and
express all of their emotions.

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We have conversations that most
men are not having, but that all

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men can benefit from.
My guest today is Reuben Run

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Acres.
Reuben emailed me last month

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pitching himself as an expert in
men's mental health and the male

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loneliness epidemic.
He said I've been passionate

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about this topic for a long time
and would love to share my

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insights with your audience.
Oh, I nearly forgot to mention

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that Ruben is 16 years old.
Yeah, so let's do it.

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Hello Ruben, and welcome to REAL
MEN Feel.

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Thank you for having me.
Last month you sent me an e-mail

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pitching yourself as a guest to
be on Real Men Feel, which I get

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a lot.
I don't think I've ever gotten

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one from a 16 year old before.
So my first question is got to

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be why at such a young age are
you interested in men's mental

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health, in male loneliness?
Yeah, that's, that's a

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complicated, but great question.
I I'm first of all, I have that

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entrepreneurial spirit.
I've always been an entrepreneur

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and I've always wanted to build
something around my passions.

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And I've always loved psychology
as well.

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And so they've kind of become a
junction together where they've

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become this link together where
I can express, express my

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passion in a way that also
benefits other people.

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I kind of think my main like
goal that I want to do for this

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world because I'm one of those
weird people who kind of knows

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my purpose is I want to, I want
to improve the human experience.

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That's really my mission.
And one of the ways I think I

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can do that best is through
men's mental health.

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And I think it's such a, it's
such an undervalued like not

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only like like topic, but just
like as a, as a, as a subject

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that's important to like really
all of humanity.

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It's surprising how little it
gets talked about And how like I

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remember actually when I was
reaching out to podcasts, I

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remember going, there are, so
there are so few that are still

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consistently going, are still
consistently posting.

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There's such a small niche.
And why is that?

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There's like there's almost
this, it should be talked about

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more, but it's not.
And then I also, when I was

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researching psychology and doing
all that, I came across like all

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these statistics and all these
like almost horrifying.

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Like, why is this all happening?
Like behind the scenes too.

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Like it's, it's not like it's in
the spotlight.

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In fact, a lot of the research
I've found has only happened

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really in the past 15 years.
There's not a lot of like this

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hasn't been like a well
documented thing that we've just

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watched go by.
It's, it's happened in like,

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kind of like silence and
darkness and only now is it

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starting to come out and people
are realizing.

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So it was really just an
interesting psychology there

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there there wasn't some
observations or experiences in

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your life that that made you
realize men weren't being taken

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care of some way.
Yeah, I mean, there were, there

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were some experiences.
I am, I'm quite introverted.

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I, I, I can be energetic, I can,
I can have a good time, but I'm

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tend to be more of an introvert.
And I remember, I remember

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seeing other people who were
really lonely.

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And for my introverted self, not
always understanding like, why

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is this guy lonely, 'cause I'm
fine.

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And it kind of was like this
whole like flip where I

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realized, like, again, like this
is a thing that even I was blind

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to and I was a guy and I had I,
I definitely had people, I saw

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people who struggled with it,
who, who would like really just

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carry this deep burden.
And it's it, it was one of those

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things where I was like, I'm a
guy.

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I understand guy things in a way
other people may not.

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I can do something about this.
I'm ambitious.

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I'm willing to do something
about it.

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I think almost to the point,
like I think mental health

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illness as a whole, which
includes loneliness, is like the

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world's next biggest challenge.
Like we're, we're like, sure,

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there's still physical diseases,
but we're, we're slowly curing

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them.
We're getting better at them,

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We're getting more effective at
getting rid of them.

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But mental health is worsening,
which doesn't make sense.

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And so I was always stuck with
this.

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Why?
If we're advancing through

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technology, socially, everything
like travel, why are we so like,

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I can go anywhere, I can go see
anyone, Why am I so lonely?

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Like, why are people so lonely?
And it was that question that

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prompted me to go find answers.
And the more answers I found,

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the more I was like something
really needs to be done about

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this.
Right.

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So why are people so lonely so.
There's a lot of reasons, but I

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think especially for guys, the
main reason is things have

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changed, but we haven't exactly
been taught to change with it.

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A lot of things we saw,
especially back in 1919,

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sixties, 70s, even 80s, we still
had the nuclear family.

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We still had a lot of things
which to the outside were like,

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oh, they're just everyday things
that maybe we took for granted.

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But now as we transition to a
much more individualistic

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society where like where so many
people are alone and not only

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alone, but can live, one of the
major issues is that they can

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live in a like almost satisfied
state in loneliness.

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It's not healthy.
You're you're certainly not

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happy, but you look at something
like you can do your work

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remotely and you can have food
delivered to your door.

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You don't ever have to leave
your house.

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You actually don't have to
interact with anyone.

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Before you had to go to work,
you had to talk to that Co

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worker, even if you disliked
them, you know, most people were

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getting a, a good portion of
people were getting married,

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especially compared to today.
And so there was, there's no

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longer the like need to go
interact with people.

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And so before I was always like,
well, it's just something you

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did.
But now, now you no longer no

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longer need to do it.
And with, with guys, it's it, it

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can get pretty bad.
Like one in four men.

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The American Survey Center found
that one in four men have no

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friends.
That's, that's, that's terrible.

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And it's not that they don't
want to have friends.

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It's like, it's a, it's a, it's
a, it's increased by like 5

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times.
So there's, it's not just like

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the odd, there's this odd, weird
group of people who are doing

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something.
It's a, it's a global thing

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that's becoming such a
significant issue that now

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people are actually like, like
it has a name, the male

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loneliness epidemic.
That's how.

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That's how dangerous it's gone.
And it is global, this isn't

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just AUS issue.
So it is increasing around the

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world.
There are some places like

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Africa for example, which still
have a lot of that very communal

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foundation that aren't as
affected.

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But Western countries take the
biggest hit.

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For certainly Australia, the
UKUK suicide statistics are

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terrible, Their loneliness
statistics are terrible.

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And it it's not as bad maybe in
some places where the culture is

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a little bit more tight knit,
but definitely around the world

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we are seeing an increase in
mental health, illness and

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loneliness.
Now you're closer to being a

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child than I am, but in my
recollection, as a as a really

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young kid, it was really easy to
just walk up to a strange and

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go, hey, you want to play and
just invent a game and you're

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off and running.
But as adults, I'd never see

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people do that.
So has has your research, you

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know, have you found like, at
what point is is there a typical

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point where that just stops?
And and why does it stop?

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So.
One of the main there's there's

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there's some stages in life
where certainly where there's a

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dip in friendship making and
even a decrease in friendships

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and usually the two I've seen
one is around 16 about about my

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age actually 16 to 18.
And it's partially because as

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guys are growing up and
maturing, the sort of they

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become more aware to maybe
stereotypes and other things

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that have been promoted in adult
life, but maybe as a kid didn't

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really matter.
Especially with social media.

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Social media, social media can
be really tough on it.

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It's more it's more tough on
girls, but it can be really

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tough on guys to.
You need to be successful, you

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need to be handsome, you need to
be strong.

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And it's just like a repetition
of you get hammered with all

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these things.
And if you don't have those,

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you're constantly comparing
yourself to other people.

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So there's that age where guys
usually get to that stage and

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they try to embody this like,
like it's not traditional

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masculinity because some people
think traditional masculinity is

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wrong or evil.
But these traditional norms of

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like providing and protecting
for people aren't bad.

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When they get distorted, they're
bad.

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But what happens is they become
idealized to the point where

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idolized to the point where it's
no longer are you protecting for

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someone, but it's I'm going to
protect myself and beat everyone

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else and I'm independent.
I don't need anyone 'cause

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that's 'cause that's what you
know, that's what being self,

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that's what being other people
should rely on you.

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You can't rely on yourself or
you should be invincible.

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You shouldn't have
vulnerability.

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And these and these things
usually will cause guys to

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compete among each other to
reject more.

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If they were more sensitive,
more cooperative, they're less

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likely to do that anymore.
They're more likely to move on

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to a more aggressive and
assertive stance.

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And that usually is when you see
a dip in friendships, that's,

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that's usually the first one.
After that, especially 18 to 25,

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there can be a lot of decrease
in friendships.

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And one of the things I learned
was one of the reasons why male

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friendships, male friendships
are least likely to share

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personal problems male on male
friendships compared to all

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other types of friendships.
And I think one of the reasons

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why they not only do that, but
also have such a high almost

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mortality rate of, of how long
their friendships survive is

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because male friendships aren't
always, but usually are based on

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activities like playing football
or playing video games, or it

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could be anything.
And the problem is that's great

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when you're a kid, when you're a
teenager and that's what you do.

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But when you grow up, sometimes
those friendships do develop

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into emotional relationships
where you can share things with

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each other.
But if they don't and you grow

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up and you move to a different
place or you're you get jobs or

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you get families, It's also in
that activity which actually

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foster the friendship can no
longer exist.

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And it can lead to the
friendship collapsing because

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the reason why it was built is
gone.

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So even when you were growing
up, you were still getting that

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that traditional message of
you're, you're a man, you're not

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supposed to be vulnerable.
You better keep things to

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yourself.
You know, stiff upper lip, be

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stoic, don't be emotional.
Was that still the message for

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you?
Yeah, and I will, I will, I will

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clarify.
I think stigma and stereotypes

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have, especially stigma have
reduced in the past 50 years.

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I, I, you know, like my
grandparents would have been,

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they wouldn't have been allowed
to talk about it, especially

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like my grandfather would
probably not be able to talk

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about mental health issues in
the same way I can today.

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Gen.
Z is very open.

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But there, even though it's
maybe not so proclaimed, it's,

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it's still there.
It's still maybe more subtle,

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but there's still like, you
can't just like roll over when

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somebody you know stands up to
you.

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You got to stand up back, you
know, you got to swing if they

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swing at you and even if you
don't engage in them, even if

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you don't want to engage them.
Because when you look at various

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like types of masculinity,
because not everyone is

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hardcore, like I'm going to like
punch anyone, whoever tries to

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look at me funny.
A lot of people maybe embody

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them slightly, but they don't
usually subscribe to these norms

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of I'm just going to, you know,
walk over everyone and try to

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outperform everyone.
It's usually that they feel kind

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of pressured to and there can be
social consequences.

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You can be considered like
people who can be like, you're

225
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,800
unmanly, you're not, you're not
a man or you're, you can be

226
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,400
excluded because people are
like, well, we don't want to, we

227
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,600
don't want to be with you.
You're not a man.

228
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,360
And it's almost as if manhood
has to be earned.

229
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:25,640
Whereas maybe maybe with girls
it's a little bit more given I

230
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,600
don't, there's no like claim I,
I that's just like an opinion of

231
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:30,680
mine.
I don't necessarily think

232
00:13:30,680 --> 00:13:33,680
there's, I can change.
There are certainly standards

233
00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:37,920
girls have to meet, but for guys
it's like you can definitely not

234
00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,000
be a man by society's standards
and it can be really harsh on

235
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,040
your mental health.
Yeah, so how does loneliness

236
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,640
manifest in physical and mental
health for men?

237
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,440
So one of the things 'cause
there are about 3, there are

238
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:57,400
kind of three myths of
loneliness and one of them is

239
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,240
that loneliness and depression
are the same thing.

240
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,760
A lot of the times when you, in
my experience, when I've asked

241
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,880
someone, they either say they
don't know or they say something

242
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:14,320
like loneliness is when
loneliness is when you feel sad

243
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,680
but you don't have anyone around
you.

244
00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:17,880
And depression is when you feel
sad and you do have someone else

245
00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,200
around you.
And that's not true.

246
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,360
You can certainly have no nobody
around you.

247
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,080
I think what's important to know
about how loneliness works, to

248
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,000
understand why and how like what
mental and physical things show

249
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:36,840
up is that loneliness is a
subjective emotional experiment,

250
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:40,520
experience of feeling
disconnected from others, even

251
00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,960
if you're with other people.
And that's, that's a big thing.

252
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,320
People think that you're
surrounded by people, you know,

253
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,120
you have tons of friends, so
you're clearly not lonely, but

254
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,920
you can be lonely even if you
have lots of people around you.

255
00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,560
And so loneliness is silent.
Nobody, most people don't

256
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,600
realize loneliness.
It's hard to see.

257
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,200
Depression usually comes along
with loneliness.

258
00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,880
So that's the main, I'd say in
mental, the main thing that

259
00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,600
comes around is depression.
What's also really important to

260
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,680
note is there was a, there was a
research study that found

261
00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,920
loneliness and depression have
separate symptoms.

262
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,320
For example, if you're feel like
you're not connected to other

263
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:27,400
people, that's not the same as
feeling a lack of energy or

264
00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:32,560
anhedonia or something where you
have a loss of like pleasure and

265
00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,800
basic things in life.
So they're not, they don't have,

266
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:36,840
they don't have the same
symptoms.

267
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,520
Whereas you look at anxiety,
anxiety has a lot of symptoms

268
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:43,920
that cause depressive symptoms
or correlate with them or

269
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,120
influence them in some way.
But loneliness is a very clear

270
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,720
separate thing.
But loneliness is incredibly

271
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,320
influenced by depression, and
loneliness can influence

272
00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,640
depression.
Depression can show up a lot,

273
00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:00,400
especially when you withdraw
from yourself and you become,

274
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,600
you know, you try to withdraw
from other people.

275
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,520
It can become a cycle.
They're really dangerous

276
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,360
together.
Depression and loneliness

277
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,920
together are the number.
Like the symptoms that come from

278
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,600
depression and loneliness are
the highest indicators of

279
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,280
suicide.
From what I've seen. 1/3 of

280
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:21,880
suicides in the western world
are caused by loneliness are

281
00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,240
said to be caused by loneliness
for males specifically.

282
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:29,440
I will say so it's a big deal.
So that would be the main mental

283
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:31,440
things.
They're also isolating

284
00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,440
behaviors.
It can lead to self harm,

285
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:38,400
anxiety, other mental issues.
But just to clear that up

286
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,560
because I think there's a big
difference between depression is

287
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,560
a mood disorder and loneliness
is an emotional or like a social

288
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:50,880
emotional experience.
But then for physical it's

289
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,760
really bad.
Like being lonely is equivalent

290
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,000
to smoking like 20 cigarettes a
day.

291
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,880
Really.
It's it's that bad you it double

292
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,560
S your chance of premature
death.

293
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,440
It can get lead to
cardiovascular issues.

294
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,079
It can, it weakens your immune
system.

295
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:10,400
It like triggers your
inflammatory response and really

296
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,280
aggravates it.
It's really, really bad.

297
00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,920
And that's why I again,
subscribe to this belief that

298
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,640
mental illness is a bigger issue
than physical illness because

299
00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:26,000
mental illness like can
literally mutate, like

300
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,920
depression can literally affect
your genes.

301
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,880
It can, it can mess with your
cells and how your cells

302
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,240
function.
And so it's a very, very real

303
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,080
thing that people think, well,
you know, loneliness is just

304
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:39,320
when you feel like you're left
out.

305
00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,560
It's like, no, even if you don't
harm yourself, even if you

306
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,360
don't, you know, think about
suicide, it can kill you because

307
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:49,440
it's, it's, it's harmful as
smoking 20 cigarettes a day.

308
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:54,160
You had mentioned social media
earlier and that, you know, the

309
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,920
promise of it was that it made
us more connected.

310
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,600
But the reality of it is it
leads to a lot more isolation.

311
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:05,560
So in your view, can technology
in some way help bring people

312
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,240
together?
Can can eliminate loneliness?

313
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,560
I think it can.
I think the reason why social

314
00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:17,440
media platforms don't is because
social media platforms are

315
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:20,760
inherently based off of
engagement and not connection.

316
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,920
If connections like the front
and you can connect with people,

317
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,760
social media can definitely can
definitely be a way to get to

318
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,320
know other people and get to see
other people's perspectives.

319
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,520
But social media is based off
engagement.

320
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,440
And so the social media
platforms we have today aren't

321
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,560
aren't here to get you out of
loneliness.

322
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,480
In fact, they're here to keep
you in loneliness because back

323
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,840
to living in a satisfied state,
social media can be a way where

324
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,200
you feel like you're connecting
people with connecting to

325
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,440
people.
It can give you that false

326
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:59,960
feeling of connection.
You can have 1000 followers and

327
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:03,000
know 10 of them.
You still have 1000 followers.

328
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,240
It feels like these people are
connected to you even if you

329
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,760
don't ever talk to them, even if
you don't see them, they're just

330
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:13,320
there.
And so it can sort of, oh, hide

331
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:16,800
the part of you that might go,
wait a minute, maybe I'm really

332
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,040
lonely.
Maybe I actually need to do

333
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,640
something about this because you
can feel like, oh, well, you

334
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,760
know, someone likes my reel.
I posted.

335
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,840
Well, clearly I'm with, I'm with
other people.

336
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,840
So the social media we have
today doesn't work it and again,

337
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,760
it promotes stereotypes or it
has really harsh it it it wants

338
00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,640
the extremes it either it wants,
it doesn't want the the middle.

339
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,880
The middle's boring, but most
people are in the middle.

340
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:49,600
Most people aren't these Andrew
Tate figures who are really

341
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,680
radical and really loud and
outspoken.

342
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,760
Most guys are like, well, I
don't need to yell and punch

343
00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,040
everyone who swings at me, but
I'm also going to defend myself.

344
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,080
So they're not, they're not on
an extreme.

345
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:06,240
They're in the middle.
So technology can definitely

346
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:10,280
help it it it has the potential
to help social media.

347
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,800
Could become an amazing way to
help people.

348
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:19,520
One of the things I'm trying to
do is build a platform that will

349
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,520
essentially find people in the
area and actually bring them

350
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,440
together and connects them based
on things that they're actually

351
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,640
going to get along with each
other and work well with each

352
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,760
other.
And so I think it has the

353
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,560
potential.
It definitely has the potential.

354
00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:35,600
And that's one of the things I'm
doing, is proving that

355
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,480
technology actually can connect
to people and can actually get

356
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,120
people off their phones and into
the real world, so to say.

357
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,240
But right now, it's being
misused and it's harmful.

358
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,240
So your your platform, is it
sort of like a dating app for

359
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,960
friendship?
Kind of I, that was actually

360
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,440
kind of one of the first
thoughts I ever had about it

361
00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,880
because one of the things I was
like, it's definitely not a

362
00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:04,080
dating app, but then I was like,
but it's friendships.

363
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:05,960
It's it's kind of a connection
app.

364
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,480
So it's kind of the same.
One of the things I am thinking

365
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:13,560
about, which maybe doesn't push
it more into that category is I

366
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:18,000
think what I will do is you'll
probably be paired with another

367
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,840
person, like one other person
because the theory is you don't

368
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,560
want to go to the party if you
don't know anyone.

369
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,120
So you want to know at least one
person.

370
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,120
And I don't know, like that's
kind of like the wing man, your

371
00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:31,800
wing man who goes with you.
And then I'm gonna what I would

372
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:36,440
love is to eventually have six
person groups and you just go do

373
00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,320
things together.
And my whole goal is eventually

374
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,360
my like, I would be super happy
if you guys quit use if the

375
00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:46,560
people who use my app quit it
and delete it because they can

376
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,800
go do it on themselves.
They actually, they actually

377
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,760
have friends.
They actually don't like just

378
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:53,800
text each other.
They actually go out and do

379
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,120
something, even if it's like
playing football or going on a

380
00:21:56,120 --> 00:22:01,040
hike or, I don't know, reading
about their favorite Star Wars

381
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:02,040
movie.
It could be anything.

382
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,640
It's just having the like
motivation and desire to

383
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,840
actually connect with people.
I think a lot of guys maybe

384
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,200
haven't, again, haven't been
taught.

385
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,280
It's a different environment,
but with the same they, they've

386
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,720
been taught the same rules, like
how to play the game a

387
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,560
generation ago.
And so my goal is that, yeah,

388
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,280
these six, maybe it is kind of
like a dating app for

389
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,280
friendships in that these,
they're going to be these six

390
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,560
person groups.
The whole reason I did 6 is

391
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,720
because if for some reason the
group doesn't work out, I want

392
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,840
to be able to take the people
who are in pairs of two and swap

393
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,040
them around.
So if two people really don't

394
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,880
get on, get along with the
group, I can take them out and

395
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,680
swap them with someone else.
But you always still have that

396
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,680
person that you could
essentially like go to a party

397
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,840
to.
Because I've seen apps similar,

398
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,480
but they're all about like, you
see this person once and you

399
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,520
never see them again.
That's like, well, that's like,

400
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,600
maybe they'll stay in touch, but
there's no guarantee and they

401
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,240
most likely won't.
So if someone is listening to

402
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,080
this and they are consciously
aware of their own loneliness

403
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,960
and want to do something about
it, what what do you suggest as

404
00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,320
some first steps?
I think the weirdest thing that

405
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,360
people say is that when you're
lonely, you should just go get

406
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:15,800
friends.
But the whole point of

407
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,000
loneliness is that you feel
disconnected from other people,

408
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:21,280
even if you have people around
you.

409
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,400
Because if it was just going and
getting friends, all introvert,

410
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:26,920
all introverts would be
miserable.

411
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:31,520
But there are people who can go
an entire week and see their

412
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,200
friend once and be totally
happy.

413
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,720
So getting friends doesn't work
because it's not

414
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,480
one-size-fits-all.
I think the most important thing

415
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,480
is that loneliness is caused by
something.

416
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,000
There's no like we're social
creatures.

417
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,560
Why would I want to not interact
with other people?

418
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,480
Sure, you know, the I don't want
to get embarrassed.

419
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,040
There are, there are social
pressures, but especially like

420
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,720
one thing technology does do is
you can find your niche.

421
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,240
You can find the people who are
like you.

422
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,640
So the reason why I think people
are lonely or why people

423
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,360
perceive themselves as I don't
have anyone around me, nobody

424
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:12,000
actually connects or relates to
me, is because of some

425
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,840
underlying problem.
Maybe it's depression, maybe

426
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:20,800
it's trauma or shame or anxiety.
You know, maybe you have social

427
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,320
anxiety and you label it as
loneliness, but it's you.

428
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:27,200
You isolate yourself so you feel
disconnected.

429
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:32,160
But the real reason you isolate
yourself is because you feel you

430
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:33,880
get anxious when you're around
other people.

431
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,760
And so I think the first thing
people have to do, which sounds

432
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,320
almost counterintuitive, is
like, go away and reflect.

433
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,800
Like, what is the cause?
Why am I doing this?

434
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:50,680
Is it because, like, what is
this internal battle I'm having

435
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,680
that's causing me to remove
myself from people who may

436
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,520
genuinely care about me?
Why do I feel separated from

437
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,560
from my friends and family?
The first step is to be aware is

438
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:07,640
to understand how how am I
feeling and what is causing this

439
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,360
loneliness?
And if it is physical isolation,

440
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:13,920
is it if it is because you're in
your basement and you don't

441
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,320
actually talk to anyone, then
yeah, those guys need to get out

442
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,200
and talk to other people.
They need to go do something.

443
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:21,400
They don't have to do what I'm
doing.

444
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,600
They, they, they maybe they do a
dating app.

445
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,880
Maybe they just walk by and say,
hey, what's your name?

446
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:31,000
I want to know someone new, but
most of the time I find that

447
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,440
people, people, most people
aren't living in their basements

448
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,400
never seeing anyone.
Most people see people.

449
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,400
So after, after you've found
what that is, then maybe it's

450
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,320
like, maybe you need to go get
therapy maybe and the, and the

451
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,920
steps can sort of branch off and
split from there.

452
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,000
But then you need to take action
into solving that underlying

453
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,800
issue because once that
underlying issue is dealt with,

454
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,440
loneliness, loneliness will
disappear.

455
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,400
It's like a common example
again, which I'll use is

456
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,680
depression.
But both are hard, but together

457
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,960
is the real like killer combo.
Again, it's the highest.

458
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,560
I think it's the symptoms of the
highest indicator of suicide

459
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,400
because it's like depression
cripples you.

460
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:19,880
It is.
It's almost like, I like to

461
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,680
think of it as like you're
swimming, but depression

462
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:24,840
cripples you.
And with loneliness, you have

463
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,480
nobody help pull you out of the
water.

464
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:31,040
If, if, if you have no one to
help you, but you can swim,

465
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,520
you'll be fine.
And if you hurt yourself, but

466
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,640
somebody can pull you out,
you'll also be fine.

467
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,320
It's still hard.
It's still not fun maybe, but

468
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,320
it's it's, it's a lot more
manageable than if you have no

469
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,360
one to pull you out and you
can't swim because then you

470
00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:48,200
start drowning.
So that's how I like to think of

471
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:49,880
it.
Depression might be an

472
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:53,600
underlying cause maybe, maybe
you don't get out of bed because

473
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,520
you're depressed.
And because you don't get

474
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,120
depressed, all your social
relations are suffering.

475
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,240
And so then maybe you need to
figure out and deal with

476
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,440
depression.
One thing I will say for all

477
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,320
things underlying loneliness and
loneliness itself is the power

478
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,880
of weak ties.
And weak ties are essentially

479
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,320
just relationships with people
you have that aren't necessarily

480
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:18,960
intimate, aren't necessarily
close.

481
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,720
Maybe you don't, maybe you don't
see them often.

482
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,040
It could be as simple as like
your cashier at a grocery store.

483
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,400
It could be like anything but
someone you regularly know and

484
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,800
meet and at least have a like,
you know you don't hate them.

485
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,800
The power of weak ties, weak
ties.

486
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,000
The more weak ties you have,
these more like not they're not.

487
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,720
They're not weak necessarily,
they're just not as intimate.

488
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,320
The more of these you have
'cause you can have a lot of

489
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,320
them because they don't take
much social like energy,

490
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,800
emotional energy, they can
really boost your mental health.

491
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,080
They can really work.
The the more you have, the more

492
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,360
likely your intimate
relationships are to survive,

493
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,880
especially like if you're
physically isolated or alone.

494
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:09,160
The great thing about weak ties
is they're not, They're not like

495
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,080
your wife, they're not your
mother.

496
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,520
So if you screw up, it's not the
end of the world.

497
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,280
And even, and while it would be
bad, you could still survive

498
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:19,920
even if it was your mother and
wife.

499
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,880
Maybe you need, but there are
more obligations, there are more

500
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,200
rules.
Whereas if it's just the guy who

501
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,240
works at the food truck that you
walk down to every day, that can

502
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,720
be a really powerful connection
because you can actually get

503
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,480
along with someone and have a
positive experience with someone

504
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,720
without having to stress out
about the emotional connection.

505
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,640
You know, does this guy hate me?
Well, it doesn't matter.

506
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,880
He's just giving you your Taco.
So it's not as it's not as big a

507
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,240
deal.
There's not as much of at stake.

508
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:57,520
So it's really, it's not, it's
not so hard on your mental

509
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,760
health and your emotional,
especially if your social skills

510
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,000
or your like social muscles, I
guess you say you haven't

511
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:04,480
exercised, you haven't used
them.

512
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,920
Weak ties can be really, really,
really really helpful.

513
00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,520
Oh, I've, I've never heard that
term before.

514
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,280
And I, I would have, as you said
it, I assumed it was going to be

515
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,960
a negative, but it's, it's
really cool to see that that can

516
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:17,800
be a step in the right
direction.

517
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,000
That because I'm sure the, you
know, the, the, the man that

518
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,680
feels so isolated, has no ties,
doesn't, doesn't speak to the

519
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,160
cashier, doesn't speak just
here's money, giving me a walk

520
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,360
away and eat a stucco there.
There's no exchange of humanity

521
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,960
at all, just just money.
Yeah, and but The thing is you

522
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,080
can actually exchange humanity
and it's much easier going from

523
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,840
seeing no one to talking to the
guy at the food truck then

524
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,520
seeing no one to getting married
to someone.

525
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,440
Like that's a that's a huge
jump.

526
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,120
Tons of responsibilities.
It's, it's probably not going to

527
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,320
go very well if you don't have
those social skills.

528
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:56,160
So it, it may be awkward, but
it's like, it's going to be more

529
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,520
awkward trying to, again, like
trying to marry someone like,

530
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,720
and these things, they work,
they help you.

531
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,400
Research has shown that it just,
it can improve your mental

532
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,280
health, even if it's maybe it
won't cure your depression, but

533
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,920
it can just be that thing where
it's like every time you go to

534
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,080
the, you know, the grocery
store, the food truck, you're

535
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:14,640
like, you know, you're going to
see that person.

536
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,040
They're just, they're just going
to smile on you.

537
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,520
They're just going to say hi.
And you can be like, how's your

538
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,120
day?
And they'll be like, oh, great.

539
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:21,480
And how's yours?
And you can say great.

540
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,000
And it sounds like, well, why
would that matter?

541
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,640
But again, if you if you're
emotionally starved or socially

542
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,680
starved, anything, anything can
help.

543
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,560
What?
Changes would you like to see in

544
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,600
society or the mental health
field to better support men?

545
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,880
I think we really have to get
rid of the, I almost want to say

546
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:48,000
glorified standard of you have
to do this, that or that.

547
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,520
You have to be successful, you
have to be strong.

548
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,280
I think I think a big issue is
that with these, not only are

549
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:01,080
these norms on it, like people
like disappear for 90 days and

550
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,720
be a millionaire.
It's like that's the 10 minute

551
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,240
YouTube video.
You know, that's not Elon Musk

552
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,320
telling me what to do.
So it can be really hard on guys

553
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,760
to be told this, especially when
it can be.

554
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:18,360
So it'll be so opposing.
You can have some people saying

555
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,000
you need to toughen up, you
know, you need to, you can't

556
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,160
show vulnerability.
You know, it's a doggy dog

557
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,800
world.
And then there are other people

558
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,520
being like, you need to be
vulnerable.

559
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,920
You need to be emotionally open
and an expert.

560
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,720
Who I'm actually, I, I've
actually enjoyed a lot of his

561
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,120
work named Simon Rice.
I, I think he's based in

562
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,560
Australia.
He he, he's done a lot of work

563
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:45,040
on positive masculinity, which
is it's incorporating traits of,

564
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,680
of knowing again, like
awareness, but also

565
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:55,160
understanding that incorporating
again, traditional masculine

566
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,800
protecting other people isn't
bad, but neither is being

567
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,320
vulnerable.
And the key is balance.

568
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,280
You don't, you don't there's you
shouldn't be extreme.

569
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,720
You should be balanced because
if you can balance between

570
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,040
courage and confidence and and
the ability to lead with

571
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:18,160
humility and vulnerability and
the ability to be emotionally

572
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,960
expressive, because things like
being emotionally restrictive or

573
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,640
being hostile to other people
have been proven by research to

574
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,280
increase depression and increase
chances of of suicidal ideation.

575
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:37,880
So that's not a viable strategy.
Neither is we need, we still

576
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,080
need masculinity.
We can't just like Chuck it out

577
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,320
the window.
Well, there, you know, a, a

578
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,240
couple people get extreme.
So we have to end it.

579
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,120
What I would love to see is for
people and especially in younger

580
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:56,120
ages, like in school for schools
to help actually show that you

581
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,760
don't have to fight.
Like anytime someone does

582
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,040
something, you don't actually
have to just swing at them.

583
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,120
You don't actually have to
fight.

584
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,360
You don't actually have to be a
super like invincible

585
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,120
competitive person.
You can actually be yourself,

586
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,680
you can still do, you can still
be action oriented, you can

587
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,440
still stand up for what is right
and speak out when people like,

588
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,560
I don't think we should shut up
and just be like, OK, well,

589
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,400
we're again throwing it all out
the window.

590
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,720
I would love to see the balance
of masculinity.

591
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,920
That would probably be the first
thing of people getting rid And

592
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,920
and there's a lot of there's a
lot, There's no one person

593
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,240
saying it all.
Some, some sections of the

594
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,000
feminist movement say it, some
sections of older generations of

595
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,640
men are like, you need to
toughen up some drama again,

596
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,320
social media.
So some social media is like you

597
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,800
need to, you need to stop being
a like you need to stop being

598
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:49,240
masculine.
And other ones are like double

599
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:54,800
down on masculinity and they can
'cause they can cause issues

600
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,440
with hyper and hypomasculine
traits, which are again the

601
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,760
extremes which then get shown.
And so everyone, everyone

602
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,120
watching on social media is
like, so guys are either not

603
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,360
masculine at all or really,
really masculine.

604
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,120
Which one am I?
So that would be the first thing

605
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,400
what I would really love, which
maybe is what I'm doing, which

606
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,920
is maybe, and maybe it's far
fetched, but I think the the

607
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,800
nuclear family might be dying
out.

608
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,280
I still think it's going to be
around like I'm certain like if

609
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,679
I ever get married, I'm
certainly would probably have a

610
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:29,320
more nuclear family.
Like I'd probably be a provider,

611
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:35,040
but I don't want us to go from
nuclear family to individualism

612
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,080
because individualism isn't,
isn't profitable.

613
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:40,800
It it sounds possible.
Like it, it's, it's kind of

614
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,800
again, it's weird because you
think, well, if I'm only out for

615
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,320
myself, you know, I should be
able to get ahead of everyone.

616
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,280
You know, I should be able to be
happier.

617
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:54,639
But it's like we're actually not
meant to, you know, burn, burn

618
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:57,480
everyone else's, all, all the
bridges and just sit on our

619
00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,920
island all by ourselves.
So actually we are actually are

620
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:02,920
meant to share and interact with
other people.

621
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,200
So one thing I would love to see
was maybe, maybe the nuclear

622
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:12,920
family is disappearing, but we
incorporate it or we're having a

623
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,520
new thing where we're still
connected to other people.

624
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,320
You know, maybe it's like, OK,
we have like our, our close

625
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,640
family, but as we, because we're
entering a more isolated era, we

626
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,960
have more friends, we have more
ways to connect with people.

627
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,040
Yeah, some some new, some new
structure of society to replace

628
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,280
the nuclear family instead of
everyone's on their own.

629
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,480
Yeah, because the environment's
changed.

630
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,400
Like we have to, we still have
to adapt.

631
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,680
We're just adapting.
Like maybe we're just adapting

632
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,240
to a digital concrete jungle
instead of the one, you know,

633
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,480
the ones that monkeys do in the
jungle today.

634
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:55,160
Like, we still are playing with
things that can be like, we're

635
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,520
still like changing society
constantly and we need to figure

636
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:04,000
out what how can we live in a
more digital age where maybe you

637
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,360
know, where you don't see your
friends all the time and still

638
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,000
keep loneliness away?
What would you say to someone

639
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,000
who is struggling with
loneliness, but all that

640
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:20,240
societal weight and pressure of
not being vulnerable keeps them

641
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:23,040
from speaking to anyone, keeps
them from asking for help?

642
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:24,480
What what?
What can they do?

643
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,080
That's, that's a really hard
question because like I could

644
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,760
say, go to therapy where there's
a person who's not going to

645
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,320
judge you, but then therapy,
therapy doesn't always work.

646
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,040
You have to remember,
historically, therapy was first

647
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:42,160
created for women.
It was first made for women.

648
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,280
It doesn't mean it can still be
very effective with men, but 60

649
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:51,800
to 70% of patients and 60 to 70%
of therapists are women.

650
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:57,720
So it is a more feminine
industry, which doesn't always

651
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:01,480
fit men's needs, especially if
therapies based off of how you

652
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:02,760
feeling.
Well, what if you don't know how

653
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,880
you feel because maybe maybe you
don't ever think about your

654
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:07,800
feelings because thinking about
your feelings is wrong?

655
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,360
Well, then it's like that
doesn't work.

656
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,840
So again, it's a difficult
question.

657
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,000
I, I would always say start with
awareness.

658
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,480
You can never go wrong with
awareness.

659
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,800
Figure out what's wrong.
Is it that your dad said when

660
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,760
you were young, like you're not
allowed, Don't cry.

661
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,800
And so you never talked about
your emotions.

662
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,240
You never let your guard down
because you had some figure in

663
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:35,600
your life who was telling you or
some environment in your life

664
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,320
who was telling you that.
And if it is, if it is something

665
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:47,040
like that, I would say is the
cost of conforming to another

666
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:51,400
person's opinion about how you
should act worth your own mental

667
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:55,480
health?
Because you should net like, who

668
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,360
cares what somebody thinks about
you?

669
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,280
If you need therapy, go get
therapy.

670
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:06,560
Because I guarantee if if you
are burdened down by loneliness,

671
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,600
if you are burdened down by
mental health issues, you can be

672
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,000
much more confident, much more
strong.

673
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,360
You can get much more goals
done.

674
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,320
You can be much more successful
if you're a healthy person who

675
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,560
actually understands themselves
and doesn't have that weight on

676
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,880
their shoulder just because you
like.

677
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:29,240
There are people who assume that
carrying a strong burden makes

678
00:38:29,240 --> 00:38:33,400
you strong or makes you
confident.

679
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:39,040
It's like real, like hiding
behind some ideal that I'm tough

680
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,800
and I don't need help is
actually centered around a

681
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:43,280
place.
It's usually centered around a

682
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,480
place of fear.
It's actually not centered

683
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,720
around a place of courage.
Because if you're really, if

684
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:51,480
you're really confident in
yourself, you're fine being

685
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,000
vulnerable because you can take
a shot because you're you're

686
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,000
like, you can take a shot at me
and I'll survive.

687
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,440
I will be fine even if I am
exposed.

688
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:04,040
If it if it's, it's almost
always something or someone has

689
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,480
told guys you have you, you're
not allowed to be vulnerable and

690
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,560
finds that.
What is it?

691
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,360
Maybe you need to sit down and
talk to that.

692
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,240
Like if it's your father, maybe
you need to sit down and talk to

693
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,440
them.
If it's social media, maybe you

694
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,800
need to just delete social media
for a week and be like what

695
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,280
finds the variable that's
causing it like that's causing

696
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,720
the most damage and get rid of
it because nothing is worth your

697
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,360
your mental health decline and.
Yeah, the the world needs

698
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:41,920
healthier men, not weaker men.
And and I think another thing I

699
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:47,880
would add is goals are great,
but having purpose is better.

700
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,280
It's better to have purpose.
There was actually there was a

701
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:56,040
study they did, I think her name
was Fiona Stad.

702
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,480
I'm sorry to whoever that
person, I, I, I know your name.

703
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,440
I just forgot in the moment.
They did a study where they

704
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:07,560
checked what was what did guys
who committed or attempted

705
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,680
suicide.
How did they describe themselves

706
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,160
before doing so?
And the top 2 words were useless

707
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,760
and worthless.
So there is a again, these

708
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,440
stereotypes like you got to be
successful and if you're not

709
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:26,320
successful, you're nothing.
That's not true and having.

710
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:29,960
Something especially we see with
the, with the increase in

711
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,320
atheism, there's also, there's
not something that's much to

712
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,560
fight for because maybe you
fought for your country or you

713
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,840
fought for God or your religion.
Your purpose was religion.

714
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,760
Your purpose was your following
God's, what God, what God's

715
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,840
purpose for you was, or having a
deeper relationship with God.

716
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,800
But that's no longer there.
And, you know, you look at

717
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,240
America, America's incredibly
divided.

718
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,000
Maybe some of the more external
abstract things that you could

719
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,000
give you purpose are gone.
And I think, yeah, being aware

720
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,960
and finding, finding like, like
your purpose doesn't have to be

721
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:08,640
like, what job am I going to do?
It could really be like, am I am

722
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,960
I really meant like, it's the
place I am now.

723
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,880
Is that what I'm meant to do?
And is that me?

724
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,840
Because if it's not you need,
there's something else and it's

725
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,040
a journey.
You're obviously not going to

726
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,560
wake up tomorrow and be like,
oh, I know my purpose now I can

727
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,760
get rid of all my mental health.
I can just check them off like a

728
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,800
check box.
With when you're getting closer

729
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,880
on your purpose, you feel joy,
like it's a joyous experience to

730
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:34,680
be you when you're on your
purpose.

731
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:40,320
Because I think especially for
guys, purpose, purpose is just

732
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:44,080
it's all I would, I would almost
go to say it's like the highest

733
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:49,960
calling for guys in life having
purpose, like waking up every

734
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,200
day.
And it's like I'm, it doesn't.

735
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,000
Maybe it's not, maybe you're not
a billionaire, but maybe it's

736
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,680
you're waking up every day and
realizing I really actually

737
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,960
impact what I do.
That can get not rid of only

738
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,840
mental health issues, but
loneliness as well.

739
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,920
Because lonely.
If you can't feel, if you're

740
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,680
making, if you're impacting
people, you can't feel

741
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,720
disconnected from them because
you're influencing them, you're

742
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:12,040
helping them, you're making them
better.

743
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,840
And so people's purpose is never
to outperform and be other

744
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,320
people.
It's always to help other

745
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,160
people.
Sometimes it's sacrifice for

746
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,880
other people.
Fatherhood, a lot of fatherhood

747
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,760
is sacrifice.
It's sacrificing your time to

748
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:32,360
provide for a family.
It's or for your kids or to play

749
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,480
with your kids or, you know,
whatever it's but it's purpose.

750
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,520
You have a purpose.
Your, your, your, that child you

751
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,720
have or the your family is
something you fight for.

752
00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:46,960
It's something you work for and
it's something you impact.

753
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,080
And fathers, fathers can be
lonely.

754
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,520
I think it's actually one in
four in the UK are lonely.

755
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,760
And so it's not the entire
thing, but awareness purpose are

756
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,360
the are probably what I'd say
the main things are the main

757
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,440
things guys need to.
Reuben, I wonder who had the

758
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,520
biggest impact on your
definition of masculinity?

759
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,840
That's that's a tough question.
I actually, I have to say my

760
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:24,440
father, my parents both had and
this is this obviously isn't me,

761
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,360
so I don't know how much I
should go into this, but my my

762
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:33,880
parents did have rough
childhoods, but both of them I

763
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,440
have really good parents.
I, I actually myself had a

764
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,520
pretty difficult childhood
myself, but I had, one thing I

765
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,400
will say is I had really good
parents and both my mother and

766
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:51,440
my father, but my father in
particular, he was, he was like,

767
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,560
I don't think he was always
necessarily the perfect like

768
00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,160
positive masculinity, but I
think he's there now.

769
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,360
I think.
And we like, obviously we don't

770
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,480
always get along.
I mean, we have arguments, but I

771
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,520
think he, he may, even if he
didn't consciously impact me,

772
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:16,040
especially when I was like 1213,
he he did, he was a good role

773
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:22,640
model and he kind of, he taught
me a lot of things that are

774
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,800
important to, to know, important
to learn.

775
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:30,400
And like, for example, what I'm
doing is kind of weird.

776
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,280
Like I'm weird.
I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm

777
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,960
just doing like, I'm kind of,
I'm crazy, you know, I'm just,

778
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,080
I'm, I'm trying to build a
platform to get guys to connect

779
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:40,680
together.
And I'm 16.

780
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,880
It's like, what am I doing?
And a lot of parents would be

781
00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,000
like, like, I like, for example,
I don't have a desire to go to

782
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,200
college.
A lot of parents would be like,

783
00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:50,280
go to, you're going to college.
Like what?

784
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:51,680
What's wrong with you?
Do you want to not have a

785
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,560
career?
But my parents have always been

786
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,960
very supportive, but not
supportive to the point where

787
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:58,440
they're just like, go do
whatever you want.

788
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,720
They hold me accountable,
especially my father.

789
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,960
I think he was a, he was a good
influence for me and that's

790
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,680
probably why he, I do, I am
quite a lot like him.

791
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:16,800
So I, I think he was probably my
biggest influence on, on how I

792
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,640
perceive masculinity and it's
allowed me.

793
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,520
It's he's also allowed me to all
the research I've done in

794
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,360
masculinity, because there's a
lot, there's different types,

795
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,360
social media promotes different
people, all sorts of things.

796
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:37,320
It's it's helped me look at
masculinity objectively and not

797
00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:42,480
compare myself to other people
and not go, am I man enough?

798
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,880
But actually realize being man
enough just means you know it.

799
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:51,200
It just means like, do you, are
you able?

800
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,160
Are you, are you striving for
growth?

801
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,040
You don't have to.
And and that's not just a male

802
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,560
thing.
That's an everyone thing.

803
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:03,640
He influenced me to not be
because I am competitive, I'm

804
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:09,160
aggressive.
So if I had a maybe more

805
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:14,040
hypermasculine father, I would
be, you know, I would be like

806
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,400
swinging at people again if
they, if they messed with me.

807
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,720
And so he's a good influence and
he's he's, he's definitely made

808
00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:24,240
me a better person.
Ruben, you're such.

809
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,280
What do I say this?
You give me more hope for the

810
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,000
future then.
Thank you.

811
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,320
Most young people I run across.
So yeah, you're an impressive

812
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,160
young man.
And that tells me that your

813
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:41,680
parents are impressive as well.
What's the best way for people

814
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,360
to connect with you and and
track how you're doing with your

815
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,480
platform?
X would X is where I post a lot

816
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,920
of I I need to get better, but X
is where I'm posting a lot of my

817
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:57,680
insights and research because
not to build building a

818
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,920
following grade to get in front
of an audience, but also it is

819
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,240
something that you can learn.
It's just it's useful.

820
00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:08,920
It's helpful.
So I'd say X my handles Ruben

821
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,880
run acres because nobody, nobody
else has my name.

822
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,840
So it's that on all platforms.
I'm starting.

823
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:21,160
I think I might do long form.
I think I might try just talking

824
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:26,520
about concepts and maybe maybe
it's less like scientific and

825
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,760
more entertaining.
I think I think masculine this

826
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,400
all these problems are a lot
have been a lot more

827
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,720
destigmatized than they were
like 50 years ago.

828
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:41,680
But there's still pressure to
conform and I don't again, I

829
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,040
don't think we should throw
masculinity should stay.

830
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:49,720
You can't get rid of it.
Everything, everything has

831
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:52,240
masculine and feminine energies,
aspects.

832
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:54,400
What do you want to call it?
But you you can't just throw

833
00:47:54,400 --> 00:48:01,080
away half of what everything is.
So it it has to stay, but how

834
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,320
it's like a sort of manifested
can change and there's

835
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,920
definitely a better way.
And so I don't want masculinity

836
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,760
to be this really scientific
thing where it's like, well,

837
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,720
here's a bunch of data and
statistics I want to throw at

838
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:20,680
you.
Like it is, it is, it is like,

839
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,400
again, kind of like, I don't
want to say horrifying, but like

840
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,000
kind of it's a way to realize
that, oh, this is really

841
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,040
happening.
You know, in the like, for an

842
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,440
example, one of the things that
really shocked me is in the UK,

843
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,200
highest cause of death for I
think guys 18 to 45 is suicide.

844
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:42,960
So statistically, if I live in
the UK, once I hit 18, I'm most

845
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:48,320
likely to die by me, like me,
not by like a car crash, but

846
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:52,400
like, by me killing myself.
So that's, that's something I

847
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:57,240
think people need to realize,
but not be like, Oh no, men are

848
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,320
men are a sinking ship.
It's like, well, men have

849
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,400
problems, but men have a lot of
men.

850
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,720
Men can also improve a lot.
I think I'm, I'm all it is.

851
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,320
It is kind of again, like
sometimes you can, it can be a

852
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:11,920
little doom and gloom, but I, I
actually am hopeful.

853
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:17,200
As long as someone I hope I'm, I
like, I'm going to try my

854
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,160
hardest.
If for some reason it's just,

855
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:23,720
it's not my like not my purpose
or it's not me to do this, I

856
00:49:23,720 --> 00:49:27,440
think someone else will step up,
especially because if we don't,

857
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,520
Gen.
Z's very open, but I don't know

858
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,840
if future generations are going
to become like we have AI don't

859
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,240
know if it's like we had really,
really stigmatized, like you

860
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,400
have to be really strong.
You have to be all this and then

861
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,280
maybe we're having a brief
period of what actually is it?

862
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:49,880
And then are we going back Like
I, I kind of wonder, are we

863
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,840
going from being super strong
and successful to being, I mean

864
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,400
a super strong and like
invincible to being super

865
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:04,280
successful and attractive.
Like, and I think that's always

866
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,280
applied like people always want
to be you to be successful and

867
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:08,320
you always want to be
successful.

868
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:09,920
You always want to be attractive
and strong.

869
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,280
Like, these are good qualities,
but I don't know if this is a

870
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:17,480
window of like, we actually have
a shot to really change things

871
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:22,440
for a lot of things, you know,
for, for women as well, for men,

872
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,840
for both, for everyone.
I don't know if stigma is going

873
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,120
to show up again, but I'm
hopeful.

874
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,440
And any stigma, any stereotype,
it like, like most things, it

875
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,920
comes and goes, ebbs and flows.
It's strong.

876
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,680
Oh, people react to it, it goes
away and it can make a comeback.

877
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:42,080
But regardless of that, you have
destroyed my stigma of having

878
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,320
teenage guests.
So I, I thank you for that.

879
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,840
But yeah, everybody, I really
wanted to thank you for, for

880
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:52,440
boy, for all of your interest in
your research and, and taking on

881
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,200
such a, a massive problem.
And if you're coming here and,

882
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,880
and sharing a bit of, of your
you and that problem with us.

883
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,920
So again, thanks so much for
joining us.

884
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,240
Yeah, I mean, I think thanks for
having me.

885
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:07,480
I, I kind of had the same
reaction where I have, I had the

886
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,360
stigma of who's going to invite
me on a podcast.

887
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:16,760
So yeah, thanks a lot.
It's, it's, it's definitely an

888
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:21,560
important matter and it's, it's
important that a ton of people

889
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,160
are tackling it and not just one
person.

890
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:24,480
Right.
Amen.

891
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,240
Cool.
Thanks for joining us everyone.

892
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:29,840
Please visit Real Men Field at
org to see the blog post for

893
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,280
this episode, which will have
all various links and resources

894
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,200
discussed.
Wherever you're discovering

895
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,880
realm and feel, please
subscribe, follow, give a like,

896
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,560
share this episode with
somebody, post a review or a

897
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:41,840
comment.
If you're unsure of where you

898
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,880
are headed in life, book a free
clarity call with me and we'll

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00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,280
explore where you want to go and
what's in your way.

900
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:53,120
Visit theandygrant.com/talk and
until next time, be good to

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00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:53,640
yourself.