From Mob Lawyer to Mindfulness Mentor

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Field.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer, Andy Grant.

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You could visit theandygrant.com
to learn more about me.

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Real Men Field reminds me that
they're human beings and they

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have the right to experience and
express all of their emotions.

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My guest today is Bob Martin.
Bob's journey takes him from a

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high-powered mob lawyer during
Miami's Cocaine Cowboy era in

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the 70s and 80s to being a
healing and mindfulness

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coordinator, meditation mentor,
and author.

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Currently serving as a professor
of Wellness and mindfulness at

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Elon University, Bob blends
Taoist teachings, brain science,

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and psychology to help
individuals break free from

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limiting beliefs.
Bob has LED quite an interesting

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life, and you'll hear who he
sees as the people who enforce

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the Constitution.
AOI began as a mob lawyer and

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what happened when he first
received the message to retreat?

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Bob's journey is full of highs
and lows, and his lessons

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combine Taoism and Buddhism.
We discussed meditation,

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mindfulness, relaxation, and
much more.

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He shares what he's proud of,
what he wishes more men knew,

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and how to get his free ebook.
What is Meditation and is it for

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Me?
Let's do it.

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Hello Bob, and welcome to Real
Men Feel.

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Thanks, pleasure to be here.
Yeah, when I when I first

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discovered, I think it was on
Podmatch, I found you.

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That's a kind of matchmaking
service for podcasts, for people

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that aren't familiar.
You describe your journey as

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going from an arrogant mob
lawyer during Miami's Cocaine

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Cowboy era to a healing
mindfulness coordinator and

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meditation mentor and published
author.

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So the cowboy cocaine era,
That's the 80s. 70s, yeah, 70s

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and 80s. 70s and 80s OK, so.
It was the time of Miami Vice,

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Yeah, and Scarface and.
So is it was that was that

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glitter image, Is that like what
drew you into being a mob lawyer

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to begin with?
Well, it it was good question.

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It wasn't so much of A choice.
It's just the evolution of the

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situation.
When I graduated law school,

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Janet Reno, who was running the
Miami DA's office at the time,

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swooped me up and I started
working there and I rose to be

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in the economic crimes and
consumer frauds division.

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And the mob was kind of hard to
prosecute, but we went after

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their money with something
called Rico, or Racketeering

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Influence Corrupt Organization
Act.

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We hit him for many, many 72
million.

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And I was a part of that task
force.

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So shortly after that, I left
the DA's office, went out into

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private practice and I'll call
him.

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Johnny came to visit me and
basically said that he had some

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pretty good lawyers and I was
able to beat him and he wanted

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to send me some clients because
he thought I was a good lawyer.

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So that's how I got involved
with them.

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OK, so you let's see, So you
weren't truly, well, I don't

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know, I mean, everyone's
entitled to a defense.

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So you're you because you went
from a prosecutor to an offense

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attorney and you and your
specialty were were acting

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mobsters.
Well, I, it wasn't like I was

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conciliary, OK?
I wasn't on the inside.

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First of all, I'm not Sicilian,
so we can't.

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However, they needed somebody to
refer their folks to the mules

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that got arrested and the mid
level people who, you know,

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would be charged with
trafficking charges and the

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like.
And they paid well and they paid

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in cash.
And so I, I, I came to know them

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and hang out with them and, and
get to know them on a personal

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as well as a professional level.
And I've got some stories around

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that.
But I it wasn't like I was on

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the inside of it, OK?
So that's what got you in you're

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you're so good that the other
side wanted you to work for

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them.
Yeah, yeah.

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So what happened in your life to
say enough of that and make a

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transition?
Can I, can I just go back for a

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loan about something you said
about representing those kinds

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of folks?
OK, So a lot of people ask me

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that question, and I always love
to take the opportunity to

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answer it.
There's a number of reasons why

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defense attorneys can do what
they do, because one of them is

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that when you go into court, the
other side's not going to take

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it easy on you and they're going
to whack you over the head.

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And finally, you get up and you
want to fight back just on a

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personal level, you know, but
the other thing that's really

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important about defense
attorneys is that the the

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prosecutors and, and the police
officers, they enforce the law,

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but defense attorneys enforce
the Constitution.

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We're the ones that keep the
private citizen away from the

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government or protect them from
government overreach and excess.

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And basically it's like if
you're going to take my guy, OK,

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you can take him.
But you're going to dot your IS

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and cross your T's and you're
going to do it by the book.

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And I'm going to make sure that
I hold you accountable to it.

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And that keeps the system
honest.

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And so we take our role, you
know, as guardians of liberty

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real seriously.
So I don't always do it for the

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dirtbag, but I do it for the
system in order to keep it

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moving in the right direction.
Right.

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Again, because even a dirtbag
has to be proven guilty of

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something.
You can't just go assume it,

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right?
Got it.

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Yeah.
And if you if you give the

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prosecutor an inch, they'll
start taking it and they'll cut

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corners and then innocent people
start to get convicted.

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And that's nobody enjoys all
right.

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But anyway, no.
Great.

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No, I'm I'm glad you took the
time to to clarify that.

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And and I love that, that that
line of defense attorneys are

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the people that enforce the
Constitution.

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I've never heard that that spin
or I've never heard anyone,

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well, except one former and
future president kind of claim

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to be I protect the
Constitution, but we'll see what

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happens there.
All right.

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So so again, what led to the
transition of of leaving that

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that life?
Yeah, so I was, you know, riding

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high and I, I had a good
reputation.

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I was well respected.
I was making a lot of money,

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paid my house off by the time I
was 32 and was investing in

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businesses and stuff and going
out with these guys and partying

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a little too much and thinking
too much of myself.

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And, you know, those who they
didn't call them the cocaine

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Cowboys for nothing.
And there was a lot of powder

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around.
And when you do that stuff, you

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feel real arrogant and you feel
real invulnerable.

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Nothing can hurt you.
And that's not a great way to

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keep a safe and happy life.
And so things were kind of going

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down the doghouse personally,
and I was seeing a therapist and

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one day I came to a real
important crossroads.

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I was feeding money into a
business that I thought was

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going to make me a billion
dollars and it was just sucking

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me dry.
And I I said, George, George,

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what should I do?
So George started throwing coins

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and making mathematical
calculations and came up with

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the number and picked up a book
and opened it to that chapter

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number and showed it to me.
And the title of the chapter was

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retreat.
And, you know, I'm paying the

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guy a good much money to be my
therapist, not to be a

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soothsayer, right?
And it kind of freaked me out,

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and I kind of got mad at him.
I stomped out.

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But I couldn't help but have
that word retreat, you know,

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retreat.
And so I made a decision that I

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would pull back.
You know, I take a look at

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myself and look at what I was
doing.

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So I started to wean myself off
of some of the excesses and come

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to find out when I went back to
see George with my tail between

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my legs and asking him like,
what was that?

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And and he said that was the AI
ching and I said, what's that?

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And he said, well, it's a Taoist
practice.

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And I said, what's Taoism?
So turns out that my therapist

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was the English language editor,
disciple and devotee of a 70

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second generation Shaolin
priest.

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Think about that 72 generations.
It's about 1400 years of the

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handing down the learning from
father to son to father to son.

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And so Master Knee came to Miami
frequently, and he got a little

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Dallas group going, and George
let it when he wasn't there.

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And when Master Knee came, we
sat at his feet and listened to

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his wisdom.
And he was just the most amazing

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human being, somebody who had
actually gained mastery in life.

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He's unflippable, unflappable,
always had the exact right thing

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to say, was always appropriate,
always kind, and you just love

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being near him.
We asked him once, you know,

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what's it like to be Master
Knee?

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And he says no rehearsing
thoughts, No rehearsing

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thoughts.
He, he, he didn't ever think

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about what he was going to do
next or what he was going to

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say.
It just came out automatically

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for him, like muscle memory.
And he explained to us that that

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was a state in Taoism that's
called Wu Wei, or doing, not

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doing where you don't do
anything.

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But nothing remains undone.
And I think that we Westerners

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understand when an athlete is in
the zone and they're just making

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every 3 point shot and they
can't make a mistake.

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They're doing everything perfect
and they come in, they say, wow,

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it was a great game.
You know, how'd you do that?

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And they'll say something like,
wow, it didn't even seem like it

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was me out there.
But we call that being in the

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zone.
And Master Nee taught us that

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you can live your whole life
like that.

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So.
Oh good.

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So I wanted to ask you, you say
Master Nee had gained mastery in

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life.
Can can anyone gain mastery in

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life?
Well, to get to to get to where

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he was, you'd have to spend an
awful lot of time practicing,

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you know, I mean, he, he, he
lived in a temple and was handed

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started practicing at a very,
very young age, being taught by

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his father.
So, yeah, anybody can do it.

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I mean, but we can, it's hard to
achieve that level without being

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monastic, you know, without
going to a monastery.

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But we can achieve enough of it
so that life can become more

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effortless and efficient, yet
efficient and effective but more

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effortless.
Right.

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So not a completely effortless
state, but more effortless than

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you were the day before.
Right.

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And more resilience, you know,
it's not.

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You won't get knocked down, but
you get up a lot faster.

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Right.
So during the sounds like it was

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years of studying with Master
Knee.

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So there, there must have been
things, it had to be more than

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lectures.
They must have been practices

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you, you took in and and
discovered that the fruits of

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those were really beneficial for
you.

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So what?
What was that like?

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Well, you know, you, you've
heard of Qigong, Tai chi, Kung

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Fu.
Those are all Daoist practices,

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physical practices, but there
are a lot of contemplative

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practices.
And one of those practices is

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practicing the AI Ching, which
is what my therapist had done

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when he threw the coins.
And it's I, I practice the Jing

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all of the time that I was with
me and I still practice it even

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now, 20 years later.
Not every day as I used to

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because I don't have to.
I've ingrained a lot of, it's

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ingrained already in me.
But whenever life, you know,

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presents me with the situation
where I'm confounded, you know,

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I, I just, I pull out the old
book and throw the coins and

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invariably, you know, it gives
me a direction to go in.

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So I'm familiar with the AI
Ching as a book and that's all.

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So anyway, there's, there's an
element of, of throwing coins

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to, to, you know, have have
guidance to what to read.

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That's the point.
Yeah, that the book that most

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people are familiar with is the
Tao to Ching.

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Yes, that's it.
And the Ching Tao to Ching, the

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Ching means the classical book,
Tao means the way and Tai means

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virtue.
So it's the classical book of

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the way of virtue.
But the E Ching is the classical

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book of changes and it is it is
definitely a practice, not

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something that you read from
cover to cover.

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And if I, if I can tell you what
Carl Jung said about it, he he

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was fascinated with the I Ching
and wrote several great

225
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treatises.
And basically what what Carl

226
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:06,600
Jung said is that you have two
intelligences. 1 is verbal and

227
00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,600
rational and the other is
intuitive and nonverbal.

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00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:15,040
Whenever we feel we have a
hunch, we have an idea.

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00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,040
We don't.
Things don't feel right.

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00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,560
Well, we're noticing things and
our intuitive mind is sending us

231
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:27,000
up a little warning signal.
So what, Carl, you discovered

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00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:31,720
was that if you asked it a
question that was open-ended,

233
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,640
no, yes or no questions, just
what do I need to know about

234
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,240
today's interview, That kind of
thing.

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00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:46,600
And then you occupy the rational
mind with math, which is the

236
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,040
rational mind loves math.
And so you do the coins and

237
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,280
you're adding up tails and heads
and making lines and figuring

238
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:59,480
out these different lines.
And that leads you to a code

239
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:03,360
which you decipher.
And then that leads you to a

240
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,360
chapter and a couple of special
lines and another chapter in the

241
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,560
I Ching.
So you go and you read that, but

242
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,080
here's where the I'm going to
say in air quotes, here's where

243
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:19,080
the magic happens.
Your intuitive mind has been

244
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:22,080
working on the question all the
while that you've been doing the

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00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,480
math.
And so when you read the reading

246
00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,360
that you've been directed to,
your intuitive mind will

247
00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,520
highlight the words that are in
that reading so that it can

248
00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:40,920
bridge what it wants to tell
your rational mind.

249
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,680
It acts as a decoder and it
allows your intuitive mind to

250
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:52,560
become verbal so that now you
can effectuate the answer which

251
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,000
you really already knew.
Does that make that?

252
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,400
Did I say it right?
I don't know if you said it

253
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,920
right, but it made sense to me.
I can, I can.

254
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:02,480
I can at least pretend to follow
that.

255
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,560
I'll do that.
That's cool.

256
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:11,920
Let me give you an example, all
right, Let's say, let's say that

257
00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:17,080
you are in a situation where
you've got this brilliant idea

258
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,840
and you're excited about it and
you want to go share it with

259
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,280
some friends.
And you go and they're just,

260
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,720
they're into something else at
the moment and they're not

261
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,040
listening.
And you might ask the E Jing,

262
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,560
what do I need to know about
this situation?

263
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,480
And what your intuitive mind
will probably be telling you is

264
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,160
that they're busy with something
else.

265
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,800
And this isn't a great time to
try to force your ideas on them.

266
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,320
And you just sit back and be
patient and wait until they're

267
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,760
ready to listen to you.
And then in the meantime, you

268
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,760
know, prepare what you want to
tell them so it's as clean as

269
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,320
possible.
And when they're ready to listen

270
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,920
to you, then you'll have an
opportunity to give them your

271
00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,319
idea.
So you probably we, you and I

272
00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:09,160
would know that instinctively,
but we may not have it up in our

273
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,960
consciousness, right?
But by throwing the E Jing we

274
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,079
would get that out of it.
Right.

275
00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:18,160
So it's it's a just a, an
external tool to our inner

276
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,720
wisdom to get the interest that
we already know on some level.

277
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,640
That was a much more succinct,
concise way of saying it.

278
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,880
Good job.
Thank you, I I really appreciate

279
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,480
that because I have not heard
the practice of that explained

280
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,800
so, so clearly and well.
So I that, that was great.

281
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:41,320
It sounds like how people use AI
today, right?

282
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,520
Just asking questions, opening
ChatGPT.

283
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:45,320
Oh, what should I do today or
how should I prepare for the

284
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:46,720
interview?
How you know, what should I talk

285
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,440
to my friends with my idea?
A lot of people using AI for

286
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,880
that.
Do you think that's giving as

287
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:55,200
can?
Can AI be intuitive?

288
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:03,680
Well, here's the thing, if we if
we're thinking that AI or the I

289
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:10,080
Ching is actually going to give
us the answer, then we're

290
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,760
correct with AI, 'cause you're
going to ask it a question and

291
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,040
it will go through its database
and give you an answer based on

292
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,040
its database.
But if you're looking to access

293
00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:26,960
your inner wisdom and make
conscious the answer which you

294
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:32,640
already know to be true, I don't
think that AI can do that for

295
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,120
you.
Because you need the time of of

296
00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:40,840
distracting your rational mind
and get it out of the way so

297
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,680
that your intuitive mind can be
free to work on the issue.

298
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,400
I'd that piece of the practice
is an important piece.

299
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:55,280
So AI is just a rational mind.
AI would be, Yeah, you would.

300
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,160
It's, well, it's call it the
verbal mind.

301
00:18:57,360 --> 00:18:58,680
AI is totally verbal.
Cool.

302
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,760
Yeah, so I, I do Akashic record
readings and it's similar, just

303
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:05,960
another, another way to access
and your wisdom and any way to

304
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,080
get there.
And I haven't done this yet, but

305
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,400
I thought it'd be cool to like,
I'm going to ask ChatGPT

306
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:14,000
questions about myself after I
asked them in the Akashic

307
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,160
records and then see how
different or very they are, just

308
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,360
as an experiment to see, you
know, does AI have any?

309
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,320
Because it's hard to imagine
that AI could have a sense of

310
00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,120
spirituality or connection.
But you know, I don't know.

311
00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:33,160
You know, AI is pretty amazing.
I sometimes wonder about it

312
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,760
because I find that whenever I'm
polite with it and I say please

313
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,680
and I ask it if you would or
could you, it always seems to be

314
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,800
more accurate for me.
Maybe it could be, you know,

315
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:52,640
just my read on it, or that's
what I want to believe, but I

316
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,560
don't know.
It just seems like it has a

317
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,760
sense of that.
And I've asked it a lot of

318
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,960
spiritual questions and gotten
some pretty good stuff.

319
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:07,880
Write some wonderful poetry.
One thing I noticed in in your

320
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:12,840
bio was a topic you like is the
work ethic of happiness.

321
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,800
Can you expand on that?
A lot of people think that

322
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,600
happiness is something that
happens to you, you know, but

323
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,040
it's really something that you
generate from inside.

324
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,720
If you depend on the world to,
you know, keep you happy, then

325
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,480
you're going to find that you're
going to be living on a roller

326
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,840
coaster pretty much.
There is this certain, there's

327
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,920
certain work that's necessary
internally in order to be able

328
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:47,400
to generate that happiness on a
regular basis.

329
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,360
Awe is another thing like that.
The, the sensation of awe.

330
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:57,760
Most people say, well, you know,
you have to actually be in a

331
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,960
sunset that's gorgeous or you
have to be, you know, gazing

332
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,960
upon this or that.
But awe is something which if

333
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:12,520
you, if you put the time in,
there are ways to cultivate a

334
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,360
sense of awe so that you can
access it more.

335
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:19,320
And the same thing is true of
happiness, Understanding a

336
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,400
little bit about how the brain
works, doing some, doing a

337
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,520
little bit of.
So there's some knowledge that's

338
00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,600
involved about how you actually
work internally.

339
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,920
And then there's, you know, the
practice of contemplating what

340
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,760
really works for you and what
doesn't.

341
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:42,760
But I think the most important
thing about happiness is to

342
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:51,000
break free from identifying with
your thoughts that you are your

343
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,440
thoughts when when you're
trapped inside of your thoughts.

344
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:59,400
If I see something and I have a
judgement and that judgement

345
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,280
becomes not only my truth, but
the truth, I am not free to

346
00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,520
access that, to make little
adjustments that bring me back

347
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,520
into balance.
So when I can step back and

348
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,800
notice that my thoughts are
something that I generate

349
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,600
because we said, what do we say?
We say I had a thought, right?

350
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,040
So who is the I that had the
thought?

351
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,520
And when we can start to pull
back from that thought.

352
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:31,600
And so all of that takes a bit
of intentionality.

353
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,080
And if, if I know I'm going on
here, but if I can go into one

354
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:39,520
other little aspect of that,
would it be OK?

355
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:45,400
So if you look at
evolutionarily, we it took

356
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,920
2,000,000 years or so for us to
evolve from CRO magnon to Homo

357
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,840
sapiens.
And during that period of time,

358
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:58,240
we were hunter gatherers.
We lived in a very, very clear

359
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,920
and simple environment where
what we saw we could trust as

360
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,000
being real.
And if danger was presented to

361
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,720
us, we knew why.
But today, and, you know, we did

362
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:16,120
a lot of physical labor and we
didn't eat all that much.

363
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:21,960
You know, we ate field onions,
berries, roots, and every once

364
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,960
in a while we were able to kill
a wild boar or something.

365
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,240
But not a lot of salt, not a lot
of sugar, not a lot of fat.

366
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:34,240
Today we get more that in a
McDonald's Happy Meal than we

367
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:35,880
ever got in the jungle in a
month.

368
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:43,160
So our physical bodies are not
adapted to the lifestyle that

369
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,160
we're living now.
And the same is true of our

370
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,680
minds.
And if we don't take some

371
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,080
intentionality to build up our
sense of joy and to

372
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:59,800
intentionally increase our
experience of joy and happiness,

373
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,040
we won't build up the neural
pathways that will balance out

374
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,920
the stress that the world gives
us.

375
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,600
So we have to be aware of this
and we have to intentionally

376
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,720
surround ourselves with things
that bring us joy.

377
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,400
You've mentioned awareness a
number of times and I agreed to

378
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,560
to start recognizing yourself
and where your thoughts come

379
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,320
from and then and getting that
separation work requires some

380
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,000
witnessing of being able to step
back and see it all.

381
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,040
And I know for me, my path to
developing any awareness began

382
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,160
with with meditation, with a
meditation practice.

383
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,400
So what was meditation part of
the initial trainings for Master

384
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,560
Knee for you?
Not so much.

385
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:49,120
Taoism is more contemplative and
is more for boreal.

386
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:53,560
I would say.
By doing the Tai Chi, you begin

387
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,480
to feel the ebb and flow of
energy and then you start to

388
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,360
apply that to the ebb and flow
of things in your life.

389
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,680
You contemplate a lot of stuff.
You read the data Jing and you

390
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,240
sit back and you stay with it.
It's not so much a formal

391
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,760
meditation practice as Buddhism
is.

392
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,920
When I came to North Carolina,
there's not a lot of Dallas here

393
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,520
in North Carolina.
So I started going to Buddhist

394
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,600
temples and that's when I got
involved in meditation.

395
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:30,000
And then I was called to a two
year certification or training

396
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,640
to become a teacher.
But yeah, it was it was

397
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:39,160
meditation, ultimately that gave
me the life I have today.

398
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,440
So.
So today you practice elements

399
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,960
of both religion and spiritual
practices.

400
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:50,760
OK, right.
And was it a quest for more

401
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:54,360
peace and serenity that got you
to North Carolina or what?

402
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:58,920
What did that for you?
Well, I had an agreement with my

403
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,680
mob clients that I wouldn't do
anything unethical or illegal

404
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,360
and that worked up until his son
got arrested and charged with a

405
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:12,280
15 year felony and then there
was no saying no.

406
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,960
And at that point, after
studying with Master Knee, there

407
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:22,880
was no agreeing with him.
So he came to a place where not

408
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,040
only would I not do what he
demanded of me, but if another

409
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,200
lawyer did it, I would be
obligated to report that lawyer.

410
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,240
So I didn't have much of A
choice but to leave Miami.

411
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,360
And I was passing through North
Carolina.

412
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:41,480
The azaleas were blooming and,
and, and the Dogwood trees were

413
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,520
out.
And I just thought I'll move

414
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:49,720
here and went back and told
Johnny and he said, OK, well,

415
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,480
sometimes a man has to move on.
We shook hands and never heard

416
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:54,520
from them again.
Wow.

417
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,360
That's an amazingly peaceful
ending to what could might not

418
00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:01,440
have been so.
Might not have been.

419
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:02,680
Yes.
Awesome.

420
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,000
So then that would that move was
the end of your legal career.

421
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:12,280
No, I, I, I came to a smaller
town and I went back and started

422
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:17,560
over as ADA in this town and
worked there for 5-7 years and

423
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,120
then went out in private
practice.

424
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:23,920
And I speak Spanish and at that
time I was the only Spanish

425
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:28,200
speaking lawyer in town.
So I got a lot of the migrants

426
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,000
would come to me for their
driving while impaired or

427
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:38,200
accidents and stuff like that.
So a lot of mindfulness is often

428
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,600
a buzzword.
It really rises up now and then

429
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,440
it, it, it feels like it's at
another peak.

430
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,000
Do you have any advice for
people that are, you know,

431
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:49,120
hearing that term mind, like,
how do I start my mindfulness

432
00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:50,360
practice?
Like what would you?

433
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,280
What would you point them to?
Well, the first thing I would

434
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,160
tell them is a lot of people ask
me that question.

435
00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:02,120
So I wrote a 40 page e-book
that's Ioffer that is free and

436
00:28:02,120 --> 00:28:04,480
it's called is Meditation for
me.

437
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,920
What it is, what it's not, how
to do it and how to get started.

438
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,680
And I have a lot of resources in
there and a lot of explanations

439
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,840
of meditation.
So it's free or you know, it's

440
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,560
free to download and there's
really no obligation.

441
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,840
So I would say, you know, get
that book and look through it.

442
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,480
It's got a lot of resources in
it.

443
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,680
But, you know, besides that,
there are many apps and there

444
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:35,200
are many books.
To tell you the truth, there's

445
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:41,520
only a couple of apps that I
really favor a lot of A lot of

446
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,800
apps that claim to be meditation
apps are really relaxation apps.

447
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,960
And meditation is not
necessarily relaxation.

448
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,840
Yeah, it if you meditate, you
will become more relaxed, but

449
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:05,360
that's not why you meditate.
It's a side benefit that just

450
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,680
happens.
If you're looking to meditate in

451
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:13,320
order to become peaceful and
tinkly and hug trees and all

452
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,320
that, then meditation is not
that.

453
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,600
Relaxation is there.
And relaxation is very important

454
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,160
because your brain broadens and
builds.

455
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,080
All kinds of great things
happen, but it's it's just not

456
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,200
meditation.
I think the best apps for

457
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,040
meditation is one called
Balance, which actually has an

458
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:44,360
AI, has an AI coach and then
Insight Timer has many, many,

459
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,560
many, many aspects that are just
wonderful for a beginning

460
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:51,200
person.
And of course, Ioffer classes in

461
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:57,000
meditation and the way that I
teach is fairly unique.

462
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:07,240
No, Well, it is unique because I
I use a proprietary app where

463
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,240
the guided meditations are on
the app.

464
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:16,160
And then after you listen to it
and spend a few minutes you

465
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,600
following the instructions of
the meditation, then you're

466
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,280
asked to log while you respond
to that.

467
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,960
And every single day in my five
week course, those logs come to

468
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,640
my dashboard.
And every single day I get up in

469
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,480
the morning, I read the log and
I give coaching.

470
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,680
So every single day it's like
you're, you know, it's like

471
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,400
we're like you're my roommate.
And every day you're getting

472
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,880
you're getting more advanced.
And so it's it's highly

473
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,920
effective.
I teach it to college students

474
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,720
on campus.
And I got to tell you after the

475
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,280
third week when they really
start getting it, I mean, it's

476
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,160
like my heart blows up.
You know, I mean, I see these

477
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:10,640
kids who started out and, and,
and an entire new world it opens

478
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,840
up for them.
And you know, I get these

479
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,680
comments like I feel as free as
I ever have.

480
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,160
Or I couldn't do my homework and
then I did my 10 minutes and

481
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,760
then I could, or I just noticed
there are crickets outside my

482
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:30,520
windows.
And it's just I, I really do.

483
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:32,280
I get my life from it.
Awesome.

484
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,280
Yeah.
And those, those little moments

485
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,800
are they're moments of awareness
and they come from, I mean,

486
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,520
often people meditate to to get
that awareness.

487
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,800
So, so great.
So we'll have links all over

488
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,400
real men feel the blog post for
this episode, for the for the

489
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:47,880
apps you mentioned all the books
and everything.

490
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,200
But does anything stand out as
kind of the most surprising to

491
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,120
you transformation of any
meditation student you've had?

492
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,840
Yeah, I mean, there's, there's
several, but I think one that

493
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,320
really stands out is one student
came to me after the second

494
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:13,800
class and confided in me that he
was a picker, you know, which is

495
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,960
a nervous habit.
And by the end of by 4 weeks

496
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,240
later, he'd stop picking.
That was just something that is

497
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,280
very real, very physical, very,
you know, definable.

498
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,880
But, you know, one of the things
you ask about what surprises me

499
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,720
is, and since this is a, you
know, real Men Feel podcast,

500
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:42,360
sometimes I'm just surprised at
how underrepresented men are in

501
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:50,480
seeking out meditation as a tool
and that that pains me.

502
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,400
You you must have seen an
increase over the years though.

503
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,760
If I have a class of 12, I'll
have two guys in it.

504
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,920
I also coordinate all the
mindful activities on campus for

505
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,920
the faculty and staff, and we
have a lot of lunch and learns.

506
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,000
I'll have 17/18/20 people show
up, two or three guys.

507
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,840
All right, so I'm used to being
one of those two or three guys.

508
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,800
And so, and that was, you know,
my journey.

509
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,960
I think it's been at least 15
years on my real personal

510
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,520
growth, spiritual journey and
I'm seeing more men at things.

511
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,320
But yeah, it, it obviously has
not sprinkled down into to every

512
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,360
little, every town, every class,
every state, whatever it might

513
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,600
be.
But I know they're out there.

514
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,840
I do see more of them.
So, Bob, what are you proud of?

515
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:46,000
That's a great question.
You know, a lot of it.

516
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,840
You know, I, I think of a lot of
it as things that were

517
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,760
fortuitous and just came along
at the right time.

518
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,160
But you know, the old
expression, when the students

519
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,920
ready, the teacher will come.
So being proud, I think if I was

520
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,240
going to say I was proud of
anything, it would be that I

521
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:07,200
never gave up.
I just, you know, I just kept.

522
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,920
Moving forward.
So that implies there were times

523
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:12,520
that giving up crossed your
mind.

524
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,120
Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah.

525
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,440
I mean, I had a severe bout with
opioid addiction.

526
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,320
And I mean, there was month
after month after month of

527
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,360
getting up at six O clock in the
morning and driving to the next

528
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,480
town because I couldn't go to an
NA meeting in my town.

529
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,719
I mean, I was a lawyer, right?
And I had a reputation to

530
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,280
oppose.
I'd have to drive over to the

531
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:40,400
next town at 7 O clock in the
morning and sit in on an NA

532
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,719
meeting day after day after day
after day.

533
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,560
And, and then, you know, there's
the whole thing of how many

534
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:54,719
people you can hurt and you can
break their hearts going through

535
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:59,200
something like that.
I flunked out of Boston

536
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:07,120
University.
I, I, you know, I, I, I, I, at

537
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:12,840
one point I was like terribly
obese, 324 lbs.

538
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,720
Now I'm 205.
So those, those, those are some

539
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:25,160
challenges, you know, the having
to move to North Carolina and

540
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,160
then I guess the big one of the
big challenge was that you grow

541
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,840
out of who you were and then you
find that the the wife that you

542
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:40,520
marry has not.
And so you have the heartbreak

543
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:48,920
of divorce and the like.
And so those that in a way those

544
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,600
seem like first, real, first
world problems.

545
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,880
But you know, each one of us,
our own little traumas are our

546
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,440
own little traumas.
Right, right.

547
00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:58,560
Yeah, We are.
We are.

548
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:00,920
We are each our world First,
second, third.

549
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,400
Like what?
That that that label wasn't

550
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,760
really mean much.
It's, you know, we can only know

551
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:10,600
our life.
Is there any one thing top of

552
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,400
mind that you wish more men
knew?

553
00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:16,040
But this goes back to Taoism and
yin and Yang.

554
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:24,120
I wish more men understood that
if they didn't have any yin

555
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,600
energy, any female energy in
them, they would not really be

556
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:34,040
able to relate to women.
Just as though men, I mean women

557
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:38,400
who don't have any Yang energy,
find it hard to relate to men.

558
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:45,160
The balance of the energies is a
good thing and you have to have

559
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,360
them and you have to cultivate
them.

560
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:52,480
And it's OK.
It's, it's OK to have that, you

561
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,320
know, energy in you because that
is the energy that gives rise to

562
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,040
compassion and generosity and
loving kindness and the like.

563
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,040
And, you know, we focus too
much, I think, sometimes on our

564
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,240
Yang energy, our aggressiveness,
our punching through our, you

565
00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:14,880
know, our arrogance and not
arrogance, but I mean our

566
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,880
intention to move forward and
succeed.

567
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:23,120
Sometimes it blinds us.
So, Bob, what's the best way for

568
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,960
people to learn more about you?
Keep up with everything that

569
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,920
you're up to.
A wise and happy life.com.

570
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,800
That is a great domain name,
thank you.

571
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,000
And is that what you find the
free ebook you mentioned?

572
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,240
Yep.
You can find a free ebook and

573
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:44,280
some of my poetry, and you can
find my two published books and

574
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,480
a little bio on me, as well as
information about the classes

575
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:51,760
that I teach and.
Awesome.

576
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,720
And if you want to get in touch
with me directly, there's a

577
00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:56,360
contact button.
Super.

578
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,000
Well, Bobby, I appreciate you
sharing your story so, so

579
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,360
openly.
You don't.

580
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,680
You've had quite an unusual
experience in life.

581
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,160
Like, yeah, you.
You sure have.

582
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,480
So Congrats on, you know, doing
much better than just surviving

583
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:12,880
it, but really thriving and
excelling.

584
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,920
And you know, the my favorite
type of man to meet is someone

585
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,400
that is open mode, sharing their
experience, their journey, and

586
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,120
then how they're being of
service to the world.

587
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,240
And you definitely are being of
service to the world.

588
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:29,640
So thank you for your service.
And you know, thank take about

589
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,960
Yourself for putting together a
podcast to allow for a platform

590
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,840
where people like me can come
and talk and where your audience

591
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,080
can listen and progress and
grow.

592
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,000
It's not an easy task to run a
podcast, so you should take a

593
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,680
bow and thank you for doing it.
My it it my pleasure and I don't

594
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,400
know if I even said this on a
show but Real Man Field recently

595
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,960
won two awards, the 3rd annual
Signal Awards which are for

596
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,080
podcast.
They give out bronze, silver and

597
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,720
gold awards.
Real Man Field got the silver

598
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:02,880
for most inspirational podcast
and for best Self help and Self

599
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,680
improvement podcast.
And the gold awards went to

600
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,520
people like Mel Robbins and
Oprah.

601
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,040
So wow.
Like it was like I was really

602
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,080
surprised to be nominated and be
a finalist.

603
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,240
And then when I got the silver I
was like, I was really blown

604
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:16,720
away.
I still kind of am laugh.

605
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,640
But that's great.
So.

606
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,760
So just think of all the lives
that you touch.

607
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:21,760
Hell.
Hell.

608
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,440
How wonderful is that?
Yeah.

609
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,960
It and it really is and I have
taken the time to appreciate

610
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,240
that raise my awareness, take
take the bows physically and and

611
00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:34,080
mentally and emotionally.
And yeah, it's been wonderful.

612
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,400
But so thanks again, Bob, for
your time here, for everyone

613
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,440
listening to us.
Thank you for for giving us your

614
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,280
time and attention.
Please visit realmenfield.org

615
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,400
for the blog post for this
episode, which will have all the

616
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,000
various links and resources
discussed.

617
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,280
Wherever you're discovering Real
Men Field, please subscribe,

618
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,840
follow, like, share this episode
with someone, post a review or

619
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:55,080
comment.
If you are not thrilled with the

620
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,320
state of your life today, book a
free Clarity call with me and

621
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,480
we'll explore some positive
changes you could make.

622
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:06,200
Visit theandygrant.com/talk and
until next time, be good to

623
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:06,560
yourself.