From Near-Death to Inner Life: Navigating the Human Condition with Markus Kasunich

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Field.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer, Andy Grant.

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Please visit theandygrant.com to
learn more about me.

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Real Men Feel reminds men that
they are human beings and have

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the right to experience and more
importantly, express all of

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their emotions.
My guest today is Marcus

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Kucinich.
Marcus is a holistic life and

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relationship coach, keynote
speaker, author, facilitator,

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and mentor.
This week we go deep into the

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goal of Knowing Myself.
Marcus talks about his near

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death experience at age 11 and
the open fluidity of

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consciousness he experienced, as
well as the 17 years it took to

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integrate that experience, which
resulted in his IRAM model to

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understand and navigate human
conditioning.

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We discussed doing the inner
work, expansion and contraction,

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and experience chasers.
Marcus shares what brings him

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closest to that mystical near
death experience he had as a

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child and the two things he wish
all men knew.

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Let's do it.
Hello Marcus, and welcome to

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Real Men Feel.
Thank you, it's so awesome to be

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here.
We've talked a lot for years,

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and I had to look back to see
how long it's been.

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So we first spoke about you
being on Real Men Feel back in

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August of 2022.
Wow.

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OK, Yeah, I think we we both.
Cancelled my trip, we both had

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different.
Things show up and it kept

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moving, bopping and then I
stopped for a year in between

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all there.
So it's very interesting

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experience.
But since real Men feel has

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recently won two awards, 2
Signal silver awards, one for

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its most inspirational podcast
and best self help self

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improvement podcast, I would
like to give you an award of you

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know, well, the the longest wait
award doesn't sound very

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exciting.
How you get the most persistent

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guest award?
Fair not.

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So, so Marcus, I know you, you
first of all, you do a lot and

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and amongst that is author,
coach, speaker, influencer,

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teacher, artist, father,
husband, facilitator and seeker.

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I imagine that seeking came
first.

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So what prompted young Marcus to
begin seeking?

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It was all, it was a near death
experience actually at 11 years

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old.
I don't, I, I was born in

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Canada, Ontario, which is
Southern Ontario, which is for

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those Americans that are
listening, it's north of, of New

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York State, not far from
Buffalo.

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And so winter, you know, in the
winter time, it's cold, it's

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lots of snow.
And especially in my youth, and

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we had one of those A-frame
swing sets in the backyard and

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we would, you know, as kids, we
would climb on it in the, in the

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winter time that the Bluffs
would, the snow Bluffs, the snow

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dress would go over it and then
you would try to climb over it.

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Now I was doing that and
accidentally slipped, caught my,

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my hood on the hook of one of
those bolts that was sticking

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out and watched myself go into
the entire death experience and

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watched myself die and came out
on the other side, meaning like

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on the other side and watching
my lifeless body hang on this

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this swing set.
Eventually my father who was

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looking from the window is about
11 years old.

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My father came saw it for the
window and ran out, grabbed me

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and in his intuitive kind of
like emergency things drew a

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bath, had my mother draw a bath
and they, they, they submerged

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me in the bath.
And when they put me in the

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tepid water, I came back into my
body.

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Now, when I came back and a lot
of people talk about these, like

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you've probably heard these
experiences before where people

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talk about it as a mystical
experience.

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It was a mystical experience.
Don't be, don't get me wrong.

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On the other side, I experienced
what it was like to have no

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conditioning, right, and total
clarity.

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Now, this is, and this is a
thing for a lot of people, they

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talk about, oh, on the other
side, there's this immediate

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kind of evolvement in
consciousness.

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That was not the case.
My and I've talked to a lot of

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people who've had this
experience.

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The consciousness you're in when
you leave this plane is the

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consciousness you are on the
other side.

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But I had no conditioning, no
human psychology that was

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present anymore.
So there was this kind of depth

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of clarity, lack of fear and a
profound feeling of this

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infinite kind of love that I
don't think I've ever

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experienced or could describe in
human words in ever in any case

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that I've ever nothing comes
close to it.

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And so when I came back, having
had that experience, the context

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of having no conditioning and
then being shoved back into the

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human form, two things happened.
1 Immediately the first thought

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out of my head as an 11 year old
was, Oh my God, this is life.

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Meaning I'm back here and I'm
back here in this little

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conditioned, like all the
different parts of my

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conditioning and layers and
dynamics and habits and all that

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stuff is there.
The human part of Marcus was

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there.
And also the other thing was, is

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there was the chip that was kind
of in that in our consciousness

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that divides all the world's
that somehow got completely

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fried in me.
And then I had this extreme

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experience of fluidity,
energetics, emotions, spirits,

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energy of my, I saw, I could
feel intensely my parents fear.

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I could hear things that I think
they were thinking, but I didn't

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have the, the experience at that
at 11 years old to be able to

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like really kind of integrate
what that was because an 11 year

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old consciousness doesn't
understand.

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So it took me about 17 years to
be able to even integrate the

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experience.
But instantly what that did when

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I came back, and now I have this
context of experiencing

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something completely different
than life and then coming back

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into life, you could never
really see it the same way.

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So instantly in that moment, I
would say that immediately

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created me as a seeker because
now I have this completely

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different experience.
That seems not to be the case in

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my experience of reality is
different than everyone around

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me.
I had this understanding or at

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least this echo of a, a memory
of having total clarity.

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And so instantly I had this
intense fascination with the

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human condition because I
recognized that when I came back

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into my field or into my body,
that this thing was now online.

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This human psychology was now
online.

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And I was like, I need to
understand this.

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Now, I can't say I articulated
it that way at 11, but as I

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started getting older, I started
saying more and more and more,

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what is this thing that we all
filter our experience through?

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That tends to be the way we
engage.

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And how do I meet somebody who
can help me see, or at least

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talk through this, that I see
the world in a completely

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different way than everybody
else around me?

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In fact, I actually thought that
if anyone found out what I saw,

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how I saw in the perspective of
what my reality was like, that

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they would put me in a mental
institution.

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So I was really kind of quiet
about it as I was trying to

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figure this out.
But that instantly made me a

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seeker.
I wanted to seek and understand

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human psychology.
So I went to school to study

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psychology.
I went, then that wasn't enough.

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Psychology didn't answer the
questions.

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So then I started seeking
teachers, gurus, Mystics,

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shamans, anybody anywhere at any
point who could give me some

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perspective on how it was that
my version of reality was so

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vastly different, and to kind of
work through and integrate how

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is going to work with that.
Wow.

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So I, I get that being on the
other side, there's No Fear.

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It's clarity, it's peaceful.
But when you came back and said,

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oh, this is life, could you?
Did you feel the conditioning?

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Did it take away?
Oh yeah, you could just

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recognize.
Oh, it was like it was like

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being shoved into a tiny little
box after having been in the

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vast expansiveness of the
universe.

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And there was something about it
that was really it was.

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It was there was that was the
catalyst for me to understand.

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OK, wait a second.
The I, what I recognize was in

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even in that moment, I'm like,
I'm feeling so much.

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And now I have to make the
distinction of what's my

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environment that I'm feeling,
what's me that I'm feeling?

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What is this that's on on on
board in my psychology because I

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just experienced total clarity.
So what is this?

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So that drove me to deeply start
to explore and become super

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fascinated with not only the
mystical, but also the the human

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interface that interprets the
mystical, right.

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So one thing I always wonder,
people that have the near death

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experience and they experience
the other side and post

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consciousness, post life, what
what whatever the proper term

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might be, do you get the sense
that you shouldn't have had that

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experience like you saw behind
the veil that humans aren't

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meant to?
Or does it feel like like like a

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gift that it was meant for you?
I always the the question, which

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is an alignment that most people
ask around that is did you have

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a choice to come back?
Could you have stayed there?

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And my, the way I would define
it is was it it's a choiceless

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choice, meaning as an 11 year
old, all of my identification

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was to this realm, to this human
reality, to this 3D experience.

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So I didn't have in in like in,
I didn't have any way to really

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translate that into something
more.

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And did I did it feel meant to
happen?

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I didn't feel like it was a
gift, but I didn't also feel

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like that it was not supposed to
happen.

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So my experience was because it
was so catastrophic and it, it

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unravelled my whole reality.
There's a, there's a severity in

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coming back and having to deal
with that, right?

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So that's the gift was not the
word I would use, but that was

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meant to happen.
I would, I would say, yeah, I

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would say that in some level
this all played in whether

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whether it was orchestrated by
consciousness or not, it played

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in for me to become the person I
was going to become.

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Because here I am 30 years later
still talking about that

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experience, right.
So obviously it had an impact

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and it motivated a kind of a
kind of driven desire to

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understand what the human
condition is in a way that I

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don't think anything else could
have the way that way that that

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kind of kind of drove me into
this kind of seeking path.

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So in that sense, yeah, I think
it was meant to happen.

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And I mean, we can't really
understand all the intricacies

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of the patterns and the the
fabric of consciousness.

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So it's hard for me to go there.
But I certainly feel like at

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this point, after having
integrated that and now seeing

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that as I do see it as a gift,
but at the time, no, it was a

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burden.
I felt deeply, deeply terrified.

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You have all your ordinary
conditioning and then you have

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on top of that, I had this open
fluidity of consciousness, which

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was not an easy thing to
integrate, right?

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Which was what made, you know,
contentment never created a

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seeker.
So if you're content, you're not

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seeking in the 1st place.
So I saw I was seeking

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something, some answer, some
understanding because there was

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this agitation and this now
this.

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Now I was but in in in
relationship with something

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different.
So with the near death

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experience, with your experience
of I like love that term, the

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fluidity of consciousness, How
how would you define the human

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condition?
I would define the human, the

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human condition that is, is
really the ego structure.

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It's the personality structure
that we have, right?

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And a lot of people talk about
killing the ego and wanting to

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get rid of it.
For me, this is a necessary

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interface that allows us to be,
to, to experience a uniqueness

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in our human experience.
We filter that divine

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consciousness through this human
experience, which creates the

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unique personality of Andy, of
Marcus, of Frank, of Jill, of

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whoever, right.
And through that uniqueness, we

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get to learn through our human
psychology structure, we get to

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learn and interface and, and be
able to integrate more of our

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relationship to the little self,
right, to the little self.

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And so for me, the human
experience is not only we're a,

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in my word world, we're a
spiritual being having a human

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experience, but that human
interface is that personality

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structure.
And it is, it is also my opinion

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that having been around
spiritual communities for the

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last 30 plus years, that that is
one of the areas that people do

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not go in terms of understanding
and learning about themselves.

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Because whether whatever
spiritual experience you have in

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your life, it's going to be
filtered and interpreted through

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the maturity of your
relationship with that

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psychological structure.
So if you don't have a

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relationship to it, then you're
minimizing the depth of the

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richness of the experience you
can have when you have these

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exalted experiences or openings
of consciousness.

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So the human part of me is that
filter, that human psychology

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filter for me, that's that's
what I would define as the human

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condition.
A challenge I see often in

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people that have a spiritual
awakening of some sort.

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They really accept their
spirituality, their divinity,

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the the consciousness flow
connected to everything.

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And then they try to stop being
physical and stop being human.

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And like, no, like I said,
we're, we're both.

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And as you open up to more of of
one, and as you discover, as you

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seek, it doesn't mean you stop
being.

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Both 100% and this is the thing,
a lot of people, they bounce

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between that like spiritual
relative, spiritual relative.

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But even if you look at the
definitions of consciousness

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from ancient Sanskrit teachings,
the the consciousness is made-up

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of two, two different qualities.
Emptiness, which is beyond all

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human experience.
We can't understand it, our mind

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can't wrap itself around it.
It's in shamanic circles.

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They call it the void in in non
dualistic experiences, we'll

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they'll call it this, this empty
or this quieter, this space of

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this space energy.
And then there's relative, which

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is all action.
So that's like the Shiva Shakti,

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Shiva's this emptiness and the
certainty beyond the human

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experience.
And then Shakti is the activity

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of the relative world.
Now consciousness is made-up of

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both.
Both of those things have to be

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present.
If you're bouncing between both

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of them, then you're not getting
a rich integration of a full

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experience of what reality could
be, because both of those are

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who we are in terms of.
And that's what makes it such

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unique, interesting beings in
terms of our relationship to

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this other that's so beyond
human.

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And then the human
interpretation and experience

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all wrapped together.
I mean, we're fascinating

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creatures, right?
At times.

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Well, I guess yeah.
Again, if I think of Mr. Spock,

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it's it's always fascinating.
But.

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Sometimes terrifying to be in
it, I guess.

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Indeed.
Not necessarily comfortable, but

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certainly not boring.
I mean, the relative world is

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just, it's just imbued with
activity.

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And so I feel like a deep, the
deepest kind of integration we

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can have is a connection to that
other.

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That's something beyond the
human experience, beyond

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manifestation, the unmanifested,
something that is unintangible

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and cannot really be understood
by the mind.

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And then this relative human
experience which allows us the

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00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,560
ability to interface with this
divine other quality and

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translate it into our our
experience as a human being.

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00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,920
OK, so from our most recent
conversation about you being a

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00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,560
guest, we had decided we had
focus on on what is inner work

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00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,560
because that that's a term
that's out there, inner work,

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00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,600
inner child, healing your core
wounds, all these sort of buzz

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00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,840
words and phrases that are out
there in the seeking community,

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00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:53,880
in the spiritual growth,
personal growth worlds.

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00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,800
Can you tell me what most people
see as inner work, and perhaps

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00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,040
what you see as true inner work?
Sure, sure.

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00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,760
I would say that most people in
an uninformed place see inner

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00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:11,440
work as experience.
They'll have these experiences

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00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:18,400
and they will then have this
experience will open up or clear

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00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,120
or facilitate a deeper
understanding or a deeper

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00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:23,960
connection to what is within
you.

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00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,240
And in some ways, they think
that that experience is a form

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00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,720
of inner work.
And it is to a degree, but it's

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00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,760
incomplete without some
cognitive understanding, in my

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00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:37,720
opinion.
Right.

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00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,880
So for me, inner work is being
able to look at that human

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00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:46,480
personality structure and get
really, really intimate with it,

300
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,720
understand the conditioning of
what's in there.

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00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,760
Because we are all conditioned
by the time we're seven years

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00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,520
old.
It's been proven by the time

303
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,240
you're about seven and nine
years old, you already have all

304
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,800
your habitual conditioning that
you would have received from

305
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,000
your family of origin, your
culture and where you your kind

306
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,880
of your influences.
So that is going to inform how

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00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,960
you how you engage with
everything else, including all

308
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,079
of those openings into
consciousness.

309
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,079
So for me, the depth of inner
work that I see is missing in

310
00:17:17,079 --> 00:17:20,000
the spiritual world and in the
world of self development too,

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00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,040
is going deep into the
personality structure and

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00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,960
understanding how you pick as a
conditioned human being because

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00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:29,960
that's going to inform
everything on some level,

314
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,960
unconsciously or consciously.
So that's, I think that's the

315
00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,080
piece that's often missing in
the spiritual seeking.

316
00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,960
And so I always define it as
relative sadhna because it's

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00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,160
about learning and understanding
how that works.

318
00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,440
And for me, I didn't understand
it.

319
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,000
I just knew that it was there
because I had that experience.

320
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,480
So then I went on this journey
to to go deep inside of that

321
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,680
conditioning and find a way to
map it so that I could work with

322
00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,520
it and understand.
Because ultimately when I was in

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00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:01,240
that moment, I could feel
everything.

324
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,920
There was this unity feeling
when I came back into this

325
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,640
relative form, but I could also
feel what's me and what am I?

326
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,200
What am I are are tuning into
around me, the people around me.

327
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,080
And the more deeply you
understand your own

328
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,840
conditioning, the more informed
you are.

329
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,840
The more the more clear you are,
the better your engagements are

330
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:23,240
with people.
And to understand what's

331
00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,160
influencing your unconscious
behavior.

332
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,720
Behavior transforms all of your
relationships on every level of

333
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,160
your being.
If you want a conscious

334
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,760
relationship, you got to have a
conscious relationship with

335
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,160
yourself.
Cool.

336
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,040
Yeah, it reminds me of So I'm
I'm an issue with the modern

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00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,920
mystery school.
And the core of that is the the

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00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,600
mission of being an initiate is
to know thyself all levels.

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00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,240
And it goes next to the Temple
of Delphi.

340
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,480
Exactly the beautiful place, by
the way I visited there.

341
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,680
Amazing energy, amazing.
So the big self and the little

342
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,520
self, right?
So there's the big self is that

343
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,000
other and the little self is
that, I guess what we people

344
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,440
call it, the ego structure,
right?

345
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,360
And it is the ego structure, but
it's a necessary component

346
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,040
because it's our human
interface.

347
00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,760
It's how you and I as people
engage in our uniqueness and

348
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,160
create relationship.
So if you don't understand how

349
00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,840
that thing works or how you've
been conditioned or how to work

350
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,520
with it, then I mean, aren't you
in some ways being influenced by

351
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,040
all the conditioning
unconsciously that you've not

352
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,160
explored and some level that's
becomes what's kind of feeding

353
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,480
into your relationships?
Yeah, yeah.

354
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,000
So many programs and teachers
and books out there will act

355
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,880
like it's almost like the ego's
a mistake, like, oh, you

356
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,240
shouldn't have it.
You got to get rid of it.

357
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,680
It's just this broken thing.
It doesn't serve a purpose, but

358
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,200
it it does, Yeah, it's valuable.
And and the key when you

359
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,880
understand it and what
conditioned it, perhaps what's

360
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,320
distorted is best things, but
the the ego is really its job is

361
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,840
to keep us safe.
Yeah, it's to keep us.

362
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,000
Being a seeker isn't safe to to
grow and expand isn't always

363
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,520
doesn't feel safe at least.
Absolutely.

364
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,440
I mean, because you have to push
to your far into your comfort

365
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:02,440
zone, right?
So you know that when you're

366
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,360
pushing to that unknown space
that you're going to hit your

367
00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:09,120
paradigm and then it's going to
challenge all of these perceived

368
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,920
understandings, conscious or
unconscious, about who you are.

369
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,520
So for me that structure.
Is a powerful and necessary

370
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,000
thing to understand.
And so I went in I I mean, how

371
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,160
this happened was I spent a year
in the forest in the the

372
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,480
mountains of British Columbia on
a vision quest.

373
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,400
I come from a native background.
So for me, going into the forest

374
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,920
wasn't too big of a deal.
But a year was even in my

375
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:35,080
culture was extreme and I spent
a year with with living on the

376
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,560
land and all I had with me was
my journal and I was alone for I

377
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,000
think the longest time I was
alone.

378
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:43,760
I was about a year that I was on
this track, but I was alone like

379
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,800
the longest stint without seeing
people for about 3 months.

380
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,320
And when you start getting a
loan and now you have nothing to

381
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,800
project all of those issues and
conditioning, no people.

382
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,680
And you're in this experience
where you're, you're really in

383
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,640
your own conditioning and you
can see it.

384
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,440
I started journaling like crazy.
Everything that was coming up in

385
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,200
the, I didn't have the tools or
the understanding in my early

386
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,880
20s what was going on, but I
understood that I needed to

387
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,120
really map or at least observe
how this thing was running.

388
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:19,640
And so that was how I started
that to build a kind of, or at

389
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,960
least translate how I saw the
world in a way that I could kind

390
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,320
of use it as a tool to help
people to go in and to

391
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,800
understand that conditioning.
And, and again, here's the

392
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,280
thing, Andy, most people talk
about in their work, I think

393
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,000
people want to do it.
Like, I think as as beings,

394
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,120
there's something in us that
drives us to want to do this, to

395
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,720
know thyself, right?
But I don't think we have

396
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:45,080
adequate tools in our our modern
day society, which is why you

397
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:47,640
end up in programs like
Initiate, programs like the the

398
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,600
Mystery School and doing other
things because we're looking for

399
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,000
a way, we're looking for a
system, we're looking for a map

400
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,360
on any journey.
We're looking for a map to kind

401
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:59,160
of navigate.
How are we going to have a

402
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,000
relationship with this inner
world?

403
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:05,480
Yeah.
So most people are are having

404
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,720
experiences.
It raises their awareness and

405
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,400
that's where they stop.
Still not getting the full bad.

406
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,720
They don't realize how right a
whole group of, you know, a

407
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,160
group of 20 people have the same
experience, but it's all

408
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,760
different based on their ego,
based on their conditioning of

409
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,120
how what they take from it, how
they view it, how they interpret

410
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:24,120
it, what they do going forward
and used.

411
00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,920
I wasn't familiar with this
term, but you were using a term

412
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:31,560
called experience chasers going
after one more journey, one more

413
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,400
ayahuasca trip.
One more thing is what I'm

414
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,520
missing.
And and again that that and I I

415
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,200
was in that for years too, that
the chasing the tail, just going

416
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,680
in circles as a as opposed to
spiraling upward in growth, just

417
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,320
chasing all there's all, there's
one more wound, all there's one

418
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,160
more inner childish.
All I could, I got to keep

419
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,080
looking in the past.
I got to keep, you know, digging

420
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,240
up the whatever the stuff I've
thought I've already gone over.

421
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:55,240
I must be missing something.
So your vision quest, your

422
00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:01,320
mapping of your inner world does
does your map translate to all

423
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,200
humans?
Having, I mean, I studied

424
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,440
psychology in university because
of that, that was that driving

425
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,280
interest in the human condition
and discovered to me there was

426
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,640
some, there was some, there was
a ceiling as to how far I could

427
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,160
go in terms of the understanding
of the psychological model.

428
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,080
And for me, the map I created
was not only the way I view the

429
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:26,080
world, but was a way for me to
kind of work in a comprehensive

430
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,840
way with that inner world.
And I can kind of break it down

431
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,800
how I, how I broke it down.
First of all, my, the model I

432
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,320
created is based on expansion
and contraction.

433
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,280
Because I mean, we, we spend a
lot of time talking about good,

434
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,640
bad, right, wrong, black, white.
We live in a dualistic reality.

435
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,360
So that's going to be the nature
of how we understand things

436
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,320
through comparison.
But when we go into the right

437
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,440
wrong thing, we immediately
start with moral with there's a

438
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,960
moral overlay on that, right?
So when you talk, when you talk

439
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,560
in terms of expansion and
contraction, you're not talking

440
00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,360
energetically, you're talking
about an energetic relationship,

441
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,960
a vibrational relationship.
And so then it becomes what I'm

442
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,160
what I resonate to and what I
don't resonate to, rather than

443
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,080
that's good and that's bad,
where that's right and that's

444
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,560
wrong, which for me breaks takes
out the moral, the moral fabric

445
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,480
of that, which makes it just
about observing, giving your

446
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,920
relationship to the vibrational
reality that we are.

447
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:25,040
So for me, I broke it down,
expands the expansion is radiant

448
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,160
and mature.
So the radiant inner child is,

449
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,240
is an aspect of the of the
expansive side of your inner

450
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,800
child.
And the mature inner adult is,

451
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,760
is those, those two pieces put
together, radiance and maturity

452
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,400
create the expansive energy.
And below the line is

453
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,440
contraction, which is the
wounded inner child and the

454
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,280
shadow inner adult.
Now, none of it is wrong.

455
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,400
Like every human being has a
fragmented psychology.

456
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,920
There's not one human being, you
know, And I've been around,

457
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,960
I've, I lived in an ashram for
11 years and was a personal

458
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,920
assistant to many enlightened
beings.

459
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,200
So I travelled the world with
these enlightened beings.

460
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,760
And I'm telling you, they all
have egos, all of them.

461
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,680
There's no such thing as
transcending the ego.

462
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,040
You integrate it.
And the way you integrate it is

463
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,600
not to denying it, making it
wrong, or just ignoring that

464
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,000
it's there.
It's through understanding.

465
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,720
And that's the model I created.
How contraction, the wounded

466
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,080
inner child in the shadow, how
you're conditioned, what you're

467
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,560
conditioned with and what it
looks like.

468
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,920
And then on the on above the
line, how you are conditioned

469
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,880
with radiance and maturity.
So for me, I broke it down into

470
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:35,120
26 archetypal stories that we
could then start mapping how to

471
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,880
deal with your inner world.
Which the whole point of this

472
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,840
book or what I was writing was
to create a model to make it

473
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,120
easier to go inside.
Because what I observed is in

474
00:25:45,120 --> 00:25:49,320
this world, very few people had
an adequate map, right?

475
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,200
So I was, so I would, I believe
that it's, I mean, I've now been

476
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:55,760
using the map for 20 years with
my clients, coaching, written

477
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,600
books, done courses.
So I know that it's it.

478
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,400
And I've seen what it does in
terms of giving people the

479
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,240
awareness of how not only to
engage with the conditioning,

480
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,320
what's there, but know what to
cultivate in order to use

481
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,640
medicine, what I call medicine
for when you're in a contractive

482
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,520
state or a wound comes up, how
to meet that in a way, right?

483
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,440
A lot of people think healing
means getting rid of your

484
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,400
conditioning, and it isn't.
It means having a more conscious

485
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,480
relationship to the conditioning
that you have.

486
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:26,960
Your conditioning is not going
away.

487
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,080
Everyone wants to make it go
away as one of those those faux

488
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,200
pas in the spiritual self
development world.

489
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,000
It's like, I want to make the
pain go away.

490
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,440
I want to make the conditioning
go away.

491
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,520
You're better off to deeply
understand how the conditioning

492
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,840
works, so when it rises in you
and there's a trigger in the

493
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,360
outer world, you know how to
meet it with awareness, with

494
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,240
maturity, with connection, with
expansiveness, and with

495
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,560
medicine.
When you first journaled your

496
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,520
map and discovered how to travel
your world, has it changed or

497
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,760
has it remained true and
accurate?

498
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,520
I would say that it hasn't
changed that much in, in when I

499
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,560
the, the original kind of
mapping of it, which really was

500
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,600
mapping my, my inner dialogue to
see all these different voices

501
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,480
that are inside of us and to
understand how the different

502
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,480
qualities and worked and kind of
give them names.

503
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,040
I mean, there's a nuances to how
it's changed working with

504
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,320
clients for the last 15 or 20
years, but fundamentally the map

505
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,120
still holds true.
And I look for, I'm constantly

506
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,160
looking for flaw in it so that I
can create and refine it.

507
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,800
So there's refinements in terms
of the nuances, but I would say

508
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,120
that the map itself still serves
and has served in as a very

509
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:46,240
powerful tool for people to at
least get into the process of

510
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,520
self-awareness through
introspection and understanding

511
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,800
your condition, right?
So So what is this map called?

512
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,840
Oh, it's called, I call it IRAM,
which is inner relationship

513
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,000
archetypal model and or and it's
a map for creating conscious

514
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,520
relationships.
So the more conscious and more

515
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,680
connected you are to your own
conditioning will be the level

516
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,800
of conscious and awareness that
you can have in every

517
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,560
relationship around you.
You can't have a relationship

518
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,560
that's more conscious than you
have in the relationship with

519
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:19,200
yourself.
And the most intimate

520
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,520
relationship you'll ever have on
this planet is the relationship

521
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,320
with yourself, right?
That in that know thyself

522
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,600
experience, which is the
foundation of so many spiritual

523
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,320
teachings.
How did you first share Iram?

524
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,000
Was it?
Was it your your book?

525
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,120
A workshop one-on-one?
How did it?

526
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,760
How did it translate to others?
I would say my first case

527
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,920
studies were my family because I
was starting to do this process

528
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,840
and I'm really, I didn't create
a model.

529
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,320
All I did was narrate how I see
the world.

530
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,240
So when I look at a human being,
I look at a human being

531
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,520
fundamentally is, is fragmented.
And they're and I'm when you

532
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,480
talk to somebody, they're
speaking through a filter,

533
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,640
they're speaking through an
archetype, they're speaking

534
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,160
through a story, they're
speaking through an aspect, a

535
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,400
quadrant of their conditioning.
So you could talk to somebody

536
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,040
who's deeply in their wounds and
they're speaking through the

537
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,440
wounded inner child.
And there's different qualities

538
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,280
and different kind of storylines
of the inner child meeting this

539
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:21,640
overdramatic, frozen, lost,
overindulged, misunderstood, all

540
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:24,080
these different qualities.
So you could, when you, as you

541
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,800
become more and more adept in
understanding your own

542
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,520
conditioning, you can see that
individuals are speaking through

543
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,520
a specific quadrant of their
consciousness.

544
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,120
They're either speaking to the
shadow, right control, you know,

545
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:41,640
possessiveness, unavailability,
enabling all these different

546
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,840
aspects of the shadow where
they're speaking through their

547
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,120
woundedness when they're below
the line in contraction, or

548
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,160
they're speaking from
expansiveness through the

549
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,720
radiant in their child.
Creativity, you know, magic,

550
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:57,240
playfulness, giftedness,
feeling, where they're speaking

551
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,360
through the mature part of them,
consciousness, which is, you

552
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,920
know, availability, nurturing,
compassion, you know, the

553
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,800
protector, the responsible
adult.

554
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,760
There's these different
qualities that every human being

555
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,640
speaking through.
So I think as I was a child, I

556
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:15,760
was witnessing how people were
speaking through this fragmented

557
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,240
part, and an unevolved,
fragmented individual is like

558
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,680
popcorn.
They bounce around to all these

559
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,120
different things.
Somebody who has an awareness is

560
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:29,280
has a stability and can kind of
track how and where are things

561
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,480
are coming and what place
they're speaking from.

562
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,680
When you know where someone's
speaking from, then you know how

563
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,640
to address them and meet them in
a way that's very expensive,

564
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,640
right?
So for me, it was a practice.

565
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,720
I was, I was already doing this
with all the people in my

566
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,400
family.
My first case studies were my

567
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,480
family.
And then in my late when I

568
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,200
started developing the, the, the
material, I started using it

569
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,240
with my coaching clients.
And then we did retreats and

570
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,720
then I I practiced it and tested
it for 10 years before I wrote

571
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,600
the.
Book if it's about states of

572
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,440
expansion and contraction,
right?

573
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,800
Are we constantly moving back
and forth?

574
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,160
No human stays in expansion or
stays in contraction or do.

575
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,120
They, I mean, I, well, I would
say that, I mean it's a natural

576
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,880
ebb and flow, right?
We expansion and contraction is

577
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,120
the essence of energy.
Energy is expansive or

578
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:19,920
contractive.
Those are the two states.

579
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,760
So we're kind of modeling the
vibrational reality of

580
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,960
constantly we're either in
expansiveness or

581
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,600
contractiveness.
And I think we move depending on

582
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,880
what our outside catalysts are
and our inside conditioning.

583
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,200
We get triggered into expansive
experiences and contractive

584
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,440
experiences.
The question most people ask me

585
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,400
is can I stay in expansion all
the time?

586
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:45,200
And I think you can cultivate
deeper relationships with your,

587
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,680
with your, with everything above
the line, right, with your

588
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,480
maturity and your radiance.
And the more you cultivate that

589
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,040
relationship, the more you'll
stay in that.

590
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,320
The gravity of that awareness
will keep you above the line.

591
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,520
It doesn't mean that you're not
going to have stuff that comes

592
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,640
up, but when it comes up, you,
you have the ability and tools

593
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,200
to meet that experience, to meet
those those wounds, to meet

594
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,400
those issues, to meet that stuff
that comes up in you with, with

595
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,640
medicine and understanding on
how to relate to it in an

596
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:16,800
expansive way.
So even if you have a

597
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,920
contractive experience, you can
still need it in an expansive

598
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,480
way.
So the answer is yes, we're

599
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,920
always going back and forth
between expansion and

600
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,200
contraction.
And the more consciousness you

601
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,360
have, the more awareness you
have, the more integrated you

602
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,880
are in your personality, the
easier it is to stay in an

603
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,720
expansive state.
And it is a choice.

604
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:36,680
It is a.
Choice.

605
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,920
The time spent, the time spent
in contraction can become

606
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,200
momentary as opposed to decades,
depending on on, on your

607
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,560
response, on your reaction to.
It and you and you and I both

608
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,600
know having done a ton of
healing work, I mean, that you

609
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,960
could get really deeply stuck in
the wound, right?

610
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,400
And sometimes that's
appropriate.

611
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,440
It's part of the process of
having to work through it.

612
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,800
But there is a point where even
if you're deeply getting deep in

613
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,960
your process of understanding
your the dark parts of the

614
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,600
shadow, parts of the wounded,
parts of your conditioning, that

615
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:10,800
at some point you're going to
have to meet it differently.

616
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,640
And that's where the tools in
the medicine help you to make a

617
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,680
choice to stay above the line,
cultivate those parts of you

618
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,320
above the line.
See the way I built it is or the

619
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,320
way I kind of understand this is
the conditioning that we get,

620
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,360
the scent conditioning, that
shadow and woundedness, it's

621
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,600
there.
It's not changing, it's not

622
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,640
going away.
But everything above the line,

623
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,120
radiance, all the radiant child
aspect parts of yourself and all

624
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,960
the mature aspects of yourself,
that can all be cultivated.

625
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,680
So the more you cultivate that
stuff above the line, the easier

626
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,160
is to stay above the line
because the gravity of that

627
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,600
energy is just keeps you there.
Right, like attracts like

628
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:51,160
you're, you're reading energy
users correcting more reading

629
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,680
energy and experiences and yeah.
Exactly.

630
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:59,000
Because one mistake I'm well,
one among many mistakes I made

631
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,400
in my early seeking and and
growth opportunities.

632
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:07,160
I thought my teachers, I thought
any mentor I had was perfect.

633
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,679
I thought I was flawed and
broken and they were perfect.

634
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:12,800
So that I I was making the
mistake and assumption that they

635
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,320
were staying in reading
expansion all the time and any

636
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,520
time I had that experience like,
Oh my God, this is what life is.

637
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,639
Really supposed to be?
And then I'd have a period of

638
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:22,920
contraction.
I like, oh, I, I did it wrong

639
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,679
and I'm back where I started.
And I just want to just like

640
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,560
that.
Is that ever the case?

641
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,360
Are you really back where you
started, or is it just something

642
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,239
else is coming up for you?
I don't think you can ever go

643
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,120
backwards.
I mean, that's like kind of like

644
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,560
it's like, you know, you can't
unring the bell, right?

645
00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:44,199
So I don't feel like there's any
there's a point in any process

646
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,719
where you go back to revert back
to where you were, because even

647
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,040
if you revert back to you where
you think you were before,

648
00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:53,520
you've also you've already
touched something else.

649
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,480
So then your experience of where
you went back to will never be

650
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,960
the same.
So I believe, I don't think it's

651
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,760
possible to UN evolve and de
evolve or how whatever word we

652
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,520
want to use to put us back to
where we were.

653
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,280
I think we create the perception
of that and we may revisit the

654
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,160
same patterning, right?
But if, but if you're revisiting

655
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,080
the pattern this, the, the
second time you see the pattern

656
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,360
is the third time you see the
pattern or the first time you

657
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,640
see the pattern will never be
the same because there's

658
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,880
experience, there's
understanding, there's, there's

659
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,120
integration that happens every
single time.

660
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,440
So you're never, ever going back
to where you were before.

661
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:32,960
So you've mentioned medicine a
number of times.

662
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,960
So let's, I want to get clear
like, So what are you referring

663
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,080
to when you talk about medicine
and helping this, this journey?

664
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,320
So let's talk about it from this
perspective.

665
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,920
Let's just assume you are
talking, you're talking to an

666
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,800
individual who's deeply needy,
right?

667
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,560
They're coming from the fragment
of that wounded child.

668
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,680
They're speaking through the,
through the archetype of the

669
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,240
needy child.
And then as an individual, how

670
00:35:57,240 --> 00:35:59,760
do you meet that with an
expansive energy?

671
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,240
Well, neediness is all about not
having your needs met.

672
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:06,040
It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a,
it's a touchy word because

673
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,920
nobody wants to be considered
needy, right?

674
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,080
Because you see like the sucky
person who's trying to draw

675
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,000
attention, we get the, the
classic needy individual.

676
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,040
But if you look at the word
needy, it means you didn't get

677
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,680
your needs met.
And so then when you look at

678
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,000
what's the medicine in my own
consciousness, if I find my

679
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,000
neediness or in another
individual, how do I meet that

680
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,280
in an expansive way?
It's well, So what is what is

681
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,280
the medicine for neediness?
Nurturing because you're because

682
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,400
you weren't nourished.
So if you're nourishing an

683
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,640
individual, you show up in a
nurturing, nourishing energy,

684
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,640
which is the mature part, mature
inner adult kind of archetype.

685
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,880
You, you show up as compassion,
which is a deep sympathetic

686
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,240
understanding of somebody's
pain, right?

687
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:49,920
You have compassion for what's
going on.

688
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,800
So you'd show up as compassion.
You show up as nurturing.

689
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,080
That's a medicine that starts to
dissolve that feeling of

690
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,880
neediness and invite somebody to
come back above the line.

691
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:03,760
So you can invite somebody who
shows up to you in neediness.

692
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,680
If you show up in the expansive
energy of nourishment and

693
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,760
nurturing and honoring and all
the different things, that

694
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,160
creates an invitation for
somebody to take them to step

695
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:17,200
from below the line to above the
line.

696
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,440
It doesn't mean they're going to
accept the invitation, but

697
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,640
you're showing up as the
medicine, which that's what I

698
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,120
call the medicine, the the
antidote for that kind of

699
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,400
conditioning.
And that applies to all the

700
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,920
different aspects of the shadow
and the woundedness.

701
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:36,240
And I spent, like I said, years
like really exploring what is

702
00:37:36,240 --> 00:37:39,120
the medicine for all these
things and how do you meet these

703
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,800
expensive these, these
contractive elements that come

704
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,280
up in you?
Because somebody could show up

705
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,280
as needy and you could show up
in a very judgmental way, right?

706
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,040
That's not medicine for the
experience.

707
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,360
That's feeding more contraction.
So if the objective is to be an

708
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,360
expansive energy, then when
somebody shows up in a needy

709
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,120
space or someone shows up in a
controlling space or someone

710
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,520
shows up in an overdramatic
space of eventually when you

711
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,400
learn to integrate and
understand these these tools,

712
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,720
you also understand how to meet
an individual in the most

713
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:10,360
expansive place, which will
create the deepest kind of

714
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,280
intimacy instead of meeting in
that contracted place.

715
00:38:13,720 --> 00:38:17,720
So if this is really resonating
with someone, they really, you

716
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,960
know, interested in the inner
world, looking for guidance,

717
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,600
looking for the model, it it
what's the best starting point?

718
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:25,040
Is it, is it the is it your
book?

719
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:26,440
Is it something else with you
or?

720
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,880
The book is fantastic.
I mean, in the sense it's 333

721
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,880
pages.
Originally it was 999 and my

722
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,720
editor was like, no, no, you're
going to kill people.

723
00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:37,520
You need to, you need to cut it
down.

724
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,520
So he cut it down to like 150
pages and I'd put it back up to

725
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,400
you, 333 because I just felt
like there had to be some stuff

726
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,440
in there with the tools.
So the book is a good way, at

727
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,640
the very least to create a map
for you to start inner work.

728
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,240
Because if you can't listen,
someone says to me, I've heard

729
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:58,760
this all the time, Andy, I'm
doing shadow work and I'm like,

730
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,000
that's fit.
I go, fantastic, what are you

731
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,800
doing?
And they can't articulate it.

732
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,200
Then I asked them, well, if you
can't articulate the actual

733
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,520
shadow work you're doing, then
Are you sure you're doing

734
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,400
anything?
Or is it as effective as it can

735
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,120
be?
Because if you're working on a

736
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,040
specific part of your
consciousness, you should be

737
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,600
able to articulate what it is
you're working on, right?

738
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,280
So I find this, I often people
say I'm doing inner child work

739
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,520
and I'm like, fantastic, you're
doing inner child work.

740
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,200
Are you doing radiant inner
child work or are you doing

741
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,680
wounded inner child work?
Because they're completely

742
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,720
different medicine and different
things for both sides of that,

743
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,640
the expansive side of the inner
child or the contractive side of

744
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,880
the inner child.
So what I did was make it more

745
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,200
comprehensive and create
languaging and tools around it.

746
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,680
So the book is a good starting
point.

747
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,840
It's that it's based as a
workbook.

748
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,320
It's created to give you tools
to journal.

749
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,960
It gives you affirmations, it
gives you an understanding.

750
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,160
And then what a lot of people
end up doing is they start the

751
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,880
book, they start mapping their
consciousness, and then they end

752
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:01,400
up in a session.
They're like, I want to go

753
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,560
deeper into this process and
understand it.

754
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,080
I do this with a lot of couples.
Because, you know, a lot of

755
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:10,000
couples end up in their
relationship with each other.

756
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,880
The reason they have issues is
because they don't understand

757
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,080
their own conditioning.
And then they're just projecting

758
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,720
conditioning on each other.
So when you can understand your

759
00:40:16,720 --> 00:40:19,520
own conditioning and the
conditioning of your partner, my

760
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,880
God, does it ever change the way
you engage with each other.

761
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,160
You could show up as the
medicine for each other.

762
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,040
You understand what your
tendencies are, what your

763
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,880
partner's tendencies are.
You don't have judgement for the

764
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,880
fact that every human being has
this, has this, this fragmented

765
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,040
consciousness, which I think is
a gift, quite frankly, because

766
00:40:38,240 --> 00:40:40,880
that fragmented consciousness
gives us the opportunity to

767
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,960
explore all these facets of who
we are and then integrate them

768
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,200
into this integrated being where
this where you're aware and

769
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,000
you're having a conscious
relationship with your inner

770
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,680
world.
Of all the things that you do

771
00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,320
and have done, what's your
favorite?

772
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,200
I would say to you, I am
profoundly.

773
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,720
I have a deep love, I have a
deep and devotion and

774
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,040
fascination with the human
condition.

775
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:13,200
But for me personally, the the,
the most powerful, intense,

776
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,040
beautiful experiences have
always been in terms of

777
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,520
meditation and deepening in
experiences of consciousness,

778
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,040
because that connects me to
something outside of that I

779
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,040
touched in my youth in that
experience, something other than

780
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:30,640
the human condition.
And then when that's on board

781
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,360
and I have a conscious
relationship with that, that

782
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,640
affects the way I view and
filter through my human and

783
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,280
experience.
So for me personally, going into

784
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:43,920
deep spiritual experiences of
touching that place beyond the

785
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:50,120
human conditioning is gives me a
kind of awakened experience that

786
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,480
connects me to what was it was
like on the other.

787
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:56,760
Side so is that is deep
meditation the closest you can

788
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:01,120
get in your actual human
existence to that experience at

789
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:03,200
11 years old?
That's a good question.

790
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,160
So meditation's a tool, but I
have had spontaneous experiences

791
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,360
of that of through the course of
my life because I mean, once

792
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,640
that's activated and open, now
it's, it's in you and it's

793
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,040
alive.
So now it, I mean, it gets

794
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:19,680
activated in different
experiences.

795
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,040
I've had it activated, I've had
it activated through ecstasy and

796
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,200
through energetic experiences.
I've had this profound

797
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,280
connection activated through
deep and profound meditation and

798
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,880
I've had it activated through
cognitive understanding of my

799
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,320
conditioning.
So I don't think there's one

800
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,280
place where it shows up more
than the other.

801
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:41,720
I think it's just about being
available as a human being and

802
00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:44,800
being deeply intimate with all
these different things that are

803
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,520
happening with us, and then
having a communion where that

804
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,480
can inform you in a different
way.

805
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,320
And so the deeper you go into
that space, the more you're

806
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,800
going to be informed by
something other, more and beyond

807
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,840
this human experience.
So since this is real men feel,

808
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,840
is there anything that stands
out and all that you've studied,

809
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,080
experienced, is there anything
that stands out as one thing you

810
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,560
wish more men knew?
Yes, I wish.

811
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,840
Two things.
One, it starts, one of the

812
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,400
reasons I even approached your
podcast and we kind of connected

813
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,920
in the 1st place where we
connected was because I was so

814
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,760
excited by the title of your
podcast.

815
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:30,440
Real men feel because feeling is
emotional.

816
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:34,040
The the experience of your
emotional body is the entry

817
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:36,920
point to consciousness because
consciousness is a direct

818
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,200
experience.
And if you don't understand how

819
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:45,040
to tap in and actually feel in a
visceral, somatic way, then it's

820
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,320
very difficult to go deeper into
your intuition and even deeper

821
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,120
into another experience.
So feeling the emotional

822
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,800
experience of connecting and not
just being able to talk about

823
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:00,200
your feelings, but being able to
talk from within the feeling as

824
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,440
you're having it.
A lot of people talk about their

825
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,600
feelings.
They can analyze their feelings.

826
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,080
But when you're talking, when
it's a live experience and

827
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,760
you're able to communicate from
that space, that is incredibly

828
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,920
profound, powerful, and it opens
the door for you to have a

829
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:19,920
deeper experience of
consciousness because that's

830
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:25,120
direct experience in action.
So I wish more men had access to

831
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:29,920
tools to teach them how to not
only feel and how to understand

832
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,080
that as an experience in the
body, but then to be able to

833
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,800
articulate that with with kind
of sophistication because that

834
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,320
will allow you to be deeper and
more intimate in all your

835
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,600
relationships.
Completely agree.

836
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,520
Awesome.
So you said two things.

837
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,520
The second thing I feel is the
understanding of your

838
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,120
conditioning, because I feel
like a lot of men do not

839
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,600
understand why they do what they
do.

840
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,960
And I feel, I mean, this goes
for men, but it goes for any

841
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,800
human being.
The more deeply you're connected

842
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,600
to who you are, the the more
integrated you are, the more

843
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,360
rich your experience are, the
more rich your relationships

844
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,040
are, and the more the depth of
what you can experience as this

845
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,720
reality is, is unfathomable that
all, and that's all that's all

846
00:45:16,720 --> 00:45:21,000
dependent on you having a deeper
relationship yourself.

847
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,000
It's an inside job.
It's always been an inside job.

848
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:26,920
It always will be an inside job.
Yes, we get catalysts in the

849
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,800
outer world, but the work, the
inner work, is an inside desire

850
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,600
to know thyself.
Awesome, Marcus, I've enjoyed

851
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,520
every conversation I I've had
with you.

852
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,920
So I had a high bar for this
conversation and it's you're

853
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,560
hitting it.
What is the best way for people

854
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,400
to stay in touch with you to
keep up with all that you're up

855
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,240
to?
Well, I'm on social media, so

856
00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:51,640
you can find me on social media,
which all the links I think will

857
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,080
be in the, in the thing.
Also, they can connect on the

858
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,240
website.
They can, they can definitely

859
00:45:56,240 --> 00:45:58,880
connect and have sessions.
I do private sessions as well as

860
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,520
different events all over the,
the country and the different,

861
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:02,960
actually different countries as
well.

862
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,480
So there's always events going
on in person and online.

863
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:08,960
So if they connect through my
website, they connect and they

864
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,440
connect through the book.
You will find ways to kind of

865
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,640
meet me and and see if I'm a fit
to be able to help kind of help

866
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:17,880
facilitate your journey into
your inner world.

867
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,200
Awesome.
Well, thanks again, Marcus, that

868
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,040
you, you won the coveted Most
Persistent Guest award and I

869
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,000
look forward to having more
conversations with you.

870
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:30,840
And you know, I want to thank
everyone for listening and

871
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,960
joining us as well and being
willing and wanting to explore

872
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,600
your inner world and to know
yourself because I think that's

873
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,040
a key point of this entire
experience to begin with.

874
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,200
So thanks again, Marcus, for
joining us.

875
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,160
Thanks for listening.
Wherever you're discovering Real

876
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,080
Men Feel, please subscribe,
follow, like, share this episode

877
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:50,280
with someone who would get value
from it.

878
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,960
Post a review or comment.
Please visit realmenfeel.org.

879
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:55,440
See the blog post for this
episode.

880
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,520
We'll have links to all the
resources mentioned.

881
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,760
You can get Marcus's Book
Connectors website and dig

882
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,560
deeper into all of that fun
stuff that you are.

883
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,520
And if you're not yet in the
Real Men Feel private Facebook

884
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,160
group or maybe you even know
that existed, you can visit.

885
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:12,960
You can join by visiting
realmenfeel.org/group and you

886
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,440
can always reach out to me
directly at

887
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:18,720
realmenfeel@gmail.com.
And until next time, be good to

888
00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:19,120
yourself.