From Pulpit to Porn: Faith, Fantasy, and Freedom

0:00 Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel. I'm your host, author, coach, and healer, Andy Grant. You can visit theandygrant.com to learn more about how I might help you. Real Men Feel reminds men that they're human beings and have the right to experience and express all of their emotions. We have conversations that most men are not having, but that all men can benefit from. My guest today is Doc Chocolate. Doc is a former Pastor Torn porn star who is now a coach, content creator, and educator in the adult industry. He's also the host of the Bulls and Queens Show, an AVN nominated swinger lifestyle podcast. Doc shares his journey from pastor to porn star and the challenge in reconciling what he does with his faith. We explore the world of alternative lifestyles, overcoming stigma and performance anxiety. Doc also.

0:49 Opens up about his experiences with depression and tells us one thing he wishes more men knew. Let's do it. Hello Doc, and welcome to Real Men Feel. Thank you. Thank you, Andy. Thank you for having me. I've got. To start with your journey from being a pastor to going into the adult film industry. And so how did that unfold? Oh man, isn't that the typical journey that a person and the best part of the church goes through, right? You know you, your pastor, maybe a Deacon and then you know your passes by after you take a bunch of offerings and your butt ass naked, right? Yeah, not any church I've ever been to. Yeah, but I mean, no, it, it was a crazy journey, Andy. So I'm currently 44 years old and for most of my 20s, myself and my ex-wife, we were part of the pastorship at our church that we went to.

1:44 And I would say in our early 30s we started to transition out of the church and a few years after that we got into the swinging lifestyle. And they had. A few years after that I found myself in porn. Did it really just unfold like that easily the next opportunity or, you know, adventure was just there for you? Yeah, man. I mean, it unfolded as ladies unfolded their legs around me. During this journey, there must have been some personal challenges from either your inner self or people around you that that you had to face. Yeah, yeah. I think it's, you know, like in most aspects of life, Andy, we all have our personal challenges and our fights and inner turmoil.

2:30 And mine was trying to reconcile my personal faith, belief in God with what I do right? And trying to say, OK, it's what I do horrible. Is that, you know, is it wicked? So that was my biggest challenge that I had to overcome. And and how did you, how did you reconcile that? Well, I basically reconciled it by coming to the conclusion that in life we only have one life to live, and so we personally need to live it to our fullest. And no matter what you believe in or don't believe in, really can any of us say what's is going to happen after this life that we're living here on earth?

3:14 You know, nobody really can say that, you know, whether 1 is a Christian, whether one is Jewish, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, whatever. You, none of us can really 100% with 100% certainty say, hey, this is what's gonna happen. So I personally believe, Andy, that as long as we live a life that is based and rooted in love, the foundation of love, then that's the true aspect of human life. So Speaking of love, as a male working in porn, can you do you still have meaningful personal relationships? Like do you have intimate relationships or is everything just a job? Great question.

3:55 So it's a thing where when you look at sex as a whole, sex as a whole, it's, I don't believe that it's just one sided, right? So yeah, you can have sex where it's just a physical part of it and you're just having fun. But then you can also have sex where you're making love, you're having passion, and it's a way that you can connect yourself to your partner sexually, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, all of that. You know, it's kind of like, I would say like a basketball player, right? So like, let's say you got Michael Jordan, you know, playing in the NBA or hell, hell, let's say LeBron James, right? And so, yeah, he pays and gets million, paid millions of dollars to play basketball.

4:42 But I'm pretty sure, you know, on his downtime, you'll go out there, play a couple games with a son out there on the playground, right? And that's just for fun. Was that a good analogy? Sure. Is it sure you're like, OK, no, whatever. There's no, there's no wrong answers on real men feel it's, it's as long as it's your answer, man. So with that said, the the people that you choose to be intimate with, the people that are close to you in real life, they've got to be open like they, they can't be the jealous type, right? They can't be possessive. Correct, correct, correct. So it is so is has that been a challenge finding finding your I guess real life partners that are that are open and fine with your your physical exercise?

5:32 So and I'm like hey y'all shouldn't be trying to talk me down just because I'm trying to be physically fitted exercise and all that. You guys should be like holding me up on like a pedestal or something. But all the jokes aside, my my ex-wife, she was initially the one that wanted us to get into the swinging lifestyle. So she couldn't really say anything to that aspect of it, right? Because it was her pushing it along, right? And once our marriage ended, I did have a challenge finding partners that could coexist with that. And so I basically made the conclusion, Andy, that I need somebody that's a swinger #1 and then preferably somebody that's also in the adult industry.

6:23 Porn star content creator as well, right? And so there was a lady or two that they were swingers and they had issues with what I do. And now I've been with a very, very lovely lady. My, my girlfriend, her name is Fun Charlie and she's also a content creator and in the adult industry. So because we're both doing the same thing, it makes it way easier for us to to move forward. Now you have a what I see as a unique specialty in cuckolding. Yeah.

7:04 For for people not familiar with with that entails, could you could you explain what that means? Yeah, Yeah. So there's a lot of different forms of lifestyle, Andy. And lifestyle, it basically means, according to our definition, is any type of consensual non monogamy that two people have, right? So basically you're stating that hey, we can be non monogamous, but it's consensual. Now, cuckolding is a certain subset within that where it's typically going to be a man and his wife and only the wife plays with other people.

7:47 And the cuck, the husband, he only has sex with his wife, if at all, because there's some cuckolds that they don't have sex at all. You know, they just get teased and humiliated and they love the denial and that's how they get off sexually. I can comprehend a lot of fetishes even if I haven't taken part of them, but this is one that I, I, I, I I can't yet so. It's really the that. Being humiliated is part of the man's enjoyment. Yep, sure is. And does it somehow bring a cup? Does it empower the couple somehow after the fact?

8:27 Or is it just a guy that likes humiliation? Well, I mean, typically when, when you look at it from like a 50,000 foot, 60,000 foot overview, Andy, typically guys that are in high profile careers or like, let's say they're CEOs, let's say they're, you know, men of power in their vanilla daytime life, they don't want to come and have their sexual experience be one where they have to be in control, right? They want to be able to yield up that control and be submissive to somebody. And so when you look at cuckolding, that's more of a an extremer side of submission, and that's how they get off, you know, and, and I've been there and done that, you know, before in my, you know, life, you know, I mean, I've never been to a point where I'm like, Hey, I'm going to put my Dick in a cage and it it get, you know, it's totally humiliated. But, you know, I like to get tied up and, you know, beat around a little bit.

9:33 So you, you went, so you were. You're you're a swinger and your personal private lifestyle and then start videotaping, start making it more professional and and then like, how did you what, what got you into this kind of sub genre? So basically, I mean, yeah, so I was a swinger and I've always been ex exhibitionist in how I roll Andy. And so I was always taking like, you know, video clips of me playing with other guys, wives and typically that's who I was playing with. I was, and playing means having sex. I was playing with other guys wives. And you know, initially I was like, wow, I don't have to really bring anything to the table. I could just play with your wife. And you know, there's no reciprocation. And you know, guys are like, yeah, I just want to see you fuck my wife.

10:19 And I was like, OK, done deal, right. And so I have my own podcast. It's called the Bulls and Queens Show. And we talk about lifestyle things and the nature of it and all that. And I would interview people that were making a crap ton of money on only fans and other platforms. And you know, as I'm talking to them, I'm thinking in my head, Andy, Well, man, they're, they're over here making 10, fifteen, $20,000 a month and they're selling videos. And I've been taking videos for free like the past five years. I was like, I, I, I think I need to jump on this train. And so that's how I started doing it because a lot of people, they made a lot of money, especially starting off during the the pandemic. Do you have any advice for someone you know a man trying to get over the stigma of interest in alternative lifestyles? Yeah, yeah.

11:16 My thing with it is overcoming the stigma is you just have to come to the realization that people are going to judge you no matter what, number one. And then additionally #2 is nobody gives a damn about you. Let's just be real. The people that are judging you, they don't care about you if you wound up dead on the side of the street or whatever, they don't care about you. And those are the people that are judging you. And those are the people that we kill ourselves trying to seek approval from and all that. You know, it's, you know, to hell with them in my opinion. You know, just live your life. You know, if you want to be a cuck, go do it. If you want to wear like skirts and dresses and whatever, If you want to go do whatever, as long as you're not calling it causing harm to other people, my feeling is go do you. Yeah, yeah, when I was really younger and and and battling like, what does everyone think about me? And oh, no, I better not do this, that whatever it is. Then I realized, you know, most people are so focused on beating themselves up, they're judging themselves. They they did.

12:24 They aren't really judging us as much as we assume they are. Correct, correct. And, and what I've seen Andy in life is that the people that are winning in life and the people that are like at the highest apex of whatever feel that they're in, they're not judging, you know, they're living their life. You know, the only people that are judging you are trolls or people that are trying to judge you because they want to make themselves feel good, you know, So like, who am I to? Oh, some loser wants to judge me? I don't care. You know, the winners up there, they're not judging me, you know, and I and I think that does come with age, Andy, you know, you and me both where, you know, we, we got a few years on us, you know, we got a couple Grays in our beards and what not, right? Bald heads, right.

13:05 So we, we know, hey, we're not going to keep on living our life seeking approval of people that don't really matter. Yeah. So besides your own willingness to to do the the uncharted path by the by the masses and your ability to reconcile that with with your faith in God, how have you seen society's attitudes towards all the alternative lifestyles that you play in change? Or has it changed over the past few years? Yeah, yeah. I think as time progresses, I believe we are getting a bit more liberal in our beliefs and what we accept. Obviously we have a new administration coming in that's not liberal and that's OK, you know, it is what it is. But I see slowly as time does progress, we're becoming more accepting a people that are outside of that, that vanilla, you know, vein of life, right?

14:07 And so things that used to be taboo are becoming a little bit less taboo, you know, because people are coming to the realization that, hey, we don't all need to to walk the same walk, right? You know, we don't all need to drive black Ford Model T, You know, we can drive whatever we want to drive. Have you always been so comfortable in your own skin? You really have a a confidence and that you said you're exhibitionist. Has that always been your nature? I would say to a higher or lesser degree, Andy, it has been obviously I will say when I was young, maybe junior high, I did go through a spell where I lacked, I lacked a lot of confidence. But I got into high school, started lifting weights, was in sports, and that started giving me more confidence in life overall.

15:03 You know, I have dealt with depression pretty heavily over the past few years. And I know that's something that real men feel. You guys delve in that the mental health aspect of it. But you know, it's, it's a journey, you know, it's a journey for all of us. So was your periods of depression during the your adult period, during the cuckolding period before it? Or did did I mean just does what you were doing have anything to do with how you were feeling? It was more life circumstances, right? So it wasn't directly correlated to adults. But yeah, I've been dealing with it pretty much all my adult life. And then I got diagnosed and I think I'm bipolar one or whatever it's called, but I've been medicated for about 8 years, I want to say. And things started to get a little bit more extreme, you know, in my mental toll, because I had a business that was very high stress and that business went bankrupt. I almost lost my damn mind.

16:13 And then during that time period, my father died. And then it's, it's, it's rough when you know, one parent dies, but when both parents are gone, you know, you almost feel like an, an orphan. And so that, well, you. Technically, I believe you are. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You are, you are right. And that took a big toll on me. And then my marriage was ending and that took a big toll on me as well. And so when your money is funny and your family is breaking down and you know, pretty much all the important pillars in your life are crashing down, a lot of times you, you, you got to have a come to Jesus talk with yourself, you know, and I think a lot of guys go through that in life.

17:00 And unfortunately, some guys aren't able to, to make it, you know, I call them casualties. You know, a lot of men are hesitant to take any sort of mental health pharmaceuticals because they're, many of them have side effects sexually And I'm, well, I shouldn't assume anything has has that been an issue for you? You know, it's funny because my girlfriend, she, she asked me about that because I was taking Zoloft and you know, I didn't know they gave people Ed. Generally it didn't really have any issue for me, but I did switch to Wellbutrin and I think I'm seeing a bit more of a positive effect. But I, I've always been pretty healthy. So I've always, you know, drank a lot of water, watched my diet, you know, higher protein and exercise a lot. And I take horny goat weed everyday. So that's probably my secrets.

18:01 And, and you know, that in conjunction with everything else I do, I think that probably mitigated the negative effects of Zoloft. So right now you your full time job is porn. Oh yeah, yeah, any butt ass naked on camera. Is there a particular aspect of it that you that you like the most? Like content creation, the solo, with your girlfriend, with other people? Like what? What still get you going? So I I like the hot wifing aspect of porn. Basically me with other guys wives and I also like when I have multiple ladies in on a scene. So if I have two 3-4, I think my Max has been five at one time and you know that yeah that just gets me off. And matter of fact, my, my girlfriend Charlie and I, we had lady that was another creator.

19:03 She was visiting us in Vegas from Denver and we had a weekend together, made some good content and, you know, had a blast with time. So that's always a fun time for me. One of the things you do is that that husbands hire you and fly you out to wherever they are with this couple. And so the, the, the, the having sex with with wives isn't just like people you meet at the supermarket, like people seek you out and hire you for this. Yeah, hey, they're like clean up in IO 3. She squirted. Yeah, yeah, there's yeah, there's husbands that will fly me out and they have a fantasy and I basically, you know, my thing, Andy, is I want to make their fantasy their reality. And so yeah, fly me out and we'll have some fun. If, if you could talk to your younger pastor self any advice in hindsight that you would give to to to make the path the transformation easier or to do something else entirely, what what would you say?

20:09 Start taking Rogaine at an early age so you retain your hairline. No, if he's serious I would say enjoy the journey and don't take yourself too seriously. That will be my biggest key piece of advice. You make it sound, and I think the fantasy for most guys is that being a, being a male porn star is just like almost, you know, a different element of like being a rock star. And then the role is your oyster and all, you know, you're 5 women with you all the time and all this stuff. What's the downside of this lifestyle? So the downside of the lifestyle is a lot of guys do have a fantasy about, oh, I want to be a porn star. And you know, you're begging all banging all these hot chicks, right?

21:02 But The thing is, there is performance anxiety, right? So anytime you have cameras on and whatnot, you know, you're thinking in your head, hey, I got to, you know, have the right angles. I got to do this and that, you know, they're expecting XYZ, they're expecting me. So plow the hell of wifey or whomever. And so you have to deal with that. So it's not all like, you know, sugar and kisses and all that with porn. I would say also that, you know, you do have to be safe, right? So like a lot of people don't think about the, the health aspect of it. So when you're in the adult industry, you're doing porn, you're typically getting tested every 7 to 14 days.

21:48 So you're getting a full panel test. So you're getting tested for HIV, hepatitis, syphilis, gonorrhea, chlamydia, Amgen and trichinomas. And then you're also getting swabs, anal and oral. And you know, you got, you got to make sure you're clean, right? And, you know, last year I took about maybe 20 to 25 tests, I want to say, throughout the year. And so, yeah, that's always a tough time, you know, getting stabbed and, you know, prodded and all that. And I, I get to imagine beyond traditional performance anxiety, that as a porn star, that, you know, a Midwest run-of-the-mill couple hiring you like they, it's, it's almost like perfection anxiety, like 'cause they, you know, you are the, the visiting rock God coming to town, right? Yeah, Yeah.

22:43 Well, it, it, it, it was funny, Andy, is that's actually easier for me to, to do just because these women, they're typically not, you know, performers, you know, so like if I'm doing a porn scene, you know, I may pick up a wife. I may be, you know, standing up, I may have her up on my shoulders and, you know, I may be tossing her around and all that. But if I'm with somebody that's just been having, you know, regular missionary sex, you know, for the past 2025 years, that's, that's an easy job for me. Gotcha. All right. So the it's the more stressful is kind of the professional set environment and you're both performers and. Yeah, yeah, 100%.

23:29 I, I, I think you call, you said you're a coach as well. Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How, How does that show up? Coaching. Coaching people for what? So there's a lot of people that that are in the adult space that do want to be coached on how to create this as a business. Because the issue that a lot of people have when they want to do porn only fans or whatever is they don't know anything about branding, marketing, the sales side of it and all of that. And so that's something that I do coach people on as well. There's some guys that will come to me and they want to know how to perform better with their wives. And so I'll coach them on that as well. I want to ask, has has being a cock ever appealed to you? I think Andy, that's it's almost like saying that somebody's totally liberal or totally conservative, right. You know, at the end of the day, you know, not too many of us are extreme right.

24:37 You know, a lot of us are moderates, right? And so I'd say I'm more moderate, but I learn more towards the hey, I wanna bang your wife side of things, right? But there are, there is a part of me that does like just watching, right? So I, there's a side of me, Andy, that just loves watching my partner just get totally railed by a dude or, you know, just love seeing her with another woman as well. You know, well, I think all of us guys would love to see her woman with another woman. But but yeah, yeah, there's a side of me that does like that. Now, would I ever put my Dick in a cage? Yeah, that's probably not going to happen.

25:18 But yeah, apart from that, yeah. Need a, you'd need a strong cage if you're ever going to go there. Is that the issue? They're not making world class cages for you. So Doc, you, you, you lead a very interesting life and you've had a lot of experience and I, I really appreciate your openness about the, the depression and, and things that you faced. Is there anything that stands out top of mind that you wish more men knew? Wish more men knew to get in touch with their their inner self, their feelings, you know, and I know this sounds, you know, kind of like, oh, you know, feelings and whatnot. But I feel like a lot of men want to be super alpha.

26:02 And yeah, we all do have alpha qualities about us. But again, not being too extreme, we all do have beta qualities about us as well. And we need to embrace both the alpha side of our self and the beta side of our self. And I believe that's how we become a fuller man. Cool, gotcha. Yeah, to accept our totality, not just see this one aspect and try to present that 'cause you know, I, I find the quickest way to know someone is not an alpha male is all the guys that go I'm an alpha male like. When that's yes, yes, 100%. I, I literally, I literally Andy said that the other day. Yeah, a true alpha male doesn't need to announce that he's an alpha male, No.

26:46 Excellent. Usually ask guess what's the best way for people to like follow them, connect with them. So is is there a safe for work way to follow you connect and and see what you're up to? Or is every? Is is it not? There is safe work ways of following me. If you go to dot chocolatebbc.com that is a site and it has all my links on there and depending on what link you pick it may be safe for work. It may not be safe for work. It just depends on what you pick. So there's at least a gateway to see what you are up to without someone committing down a path I guess. Right, correct. It's like you remember reading those Choose Your own adventure books back in the day when we were kids.

27:30 Andy, hey, you go to my site. It's choose your own adventure. You know you may go down a path that you can't go back down. Doctor is, is there anything else that you want to share with the world here? Yeah, yeah, I would say, you know, like I, I just want to commend you Andy, for what you do on your podcast, on the Real Men Feel podcast. And I love what you are doing for mankind. And I would say keep on doing what you're doing. You know, I love the words authenticity, vulnerability and compassion. So those are like 3 good tags that all of us men need to follow and just keep living your life, guys. Find support in each other.

28:14 Don't be or try to think that you're a lone wolf and you're at this by yourself. There's a brotherhood that you can connect to and so use it. And then also make sure that you give your skills and your effort and your resources to help other brothers. Yeah, I really appreciate and I'm kind of surprised that in the adult industry that authenticity, vulnerability, compassion are connecting. And I didn't, you know, I didn't really think of it, but that you, you know, I love talking to men that are being of service and you're being of service in a very different manner than usual. But. You're being of service. So again, Doc, thanks for joining us today. Everyone listening.

28:59 Thanks for joining us. Wherever you're catching us, please visit realmenfield.org. There will be a blog post in this episode. We'll have safe links to track dock down and see what he's up to. Wherever you're discovering real men feel, please subscribe, like, follow, share this episode with somebody, post a review or comment. And if you are not clear on where you want to go this year, I invite you to have a clarity call with me. We'll find out what your goals are and what's in the way of making them happen. Visit theandygrant.com/talk. And until next time, be good to yourself.