Gender Role Socialization | How Men Learn To Be Men

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Hello and welcome to real men.
Feel, this is your host author,

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coach, and healer.
And he Grant, you can learn more

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about me at the Andy grant.com.
Real men, feel exist to

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encourage men to experience and
express all of their emotions,

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so they can be their authentic
selves here in real men, feel we

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have conversations that most men
aren't having, but that all men

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can benefit from today is no
exception.

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My guest today is dr.
Bill to Frank, he's licensed

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psychologist.
Who has worked in schools,

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hospitals group practices.
And College counseling centers

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and had his own parenting
Consulting business.

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He isnít he wasn't a structure.
At Harvard Medical School and is

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published research in the area
of men's gender-role

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socialization.
He is a member of the American

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Psychological Association and is
Division of men and masculinity

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studies.
Welcome to Rome in Fayetteville,

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Thanks Andy, it's good to be
here.

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So let's start just to level the
playing field.

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What is gender-role
socialization?

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Okay.
Gender-role socialization is

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basically the process that all
of us go through in terms of

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learning and getting implicit
and explicit messages about what

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our gender is and what it's
supposed to be.

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Okay?
So it could be parents friends

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wider society and absolutely
family school friends, social

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world, the workforce, the Media
community at large great.

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What are some common ways that
that men specifically are

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socialized?
Well there's a lot of ways too

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many tip probably list all of
them but what I would say is

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that it's not just that men are
socialized.

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It's really boys are socialized
from very early on and it

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actually even begins before
birth.

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You know I often point out that
you know when you see an

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expectant you know couple the
first question we ask is is it a

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boy or is it a girl?
And why is that?

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It's so that the family, the
parents, the friends will know

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what color are we going to paint
the nursery?

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And are we going to buy blue
clothes?

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If it's a boy or pink clothes,
if it's a girl.

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So, from the very beginning that
process starts and it carries on

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for the rest of our lives.
Wow, I never thought of it that

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really kicks off and it's like,
how do we all respond to your

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impending birth like at and
socialization is kicked in.

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We're so And Lead.
I'm so when you grind, I didn't

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even realize.
That's why I'm asking the

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question.
Absolutely, huh?

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And does socialization, ever
stop?

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Not really it's a lifelong
process and if you think about

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the developmental stages
throughout life, you know, we go

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through all these different
stages of what we're kind of

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dealing with it, any given, you
know, stage Early Childhood,

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adolescence adulthood later
adulthood and sort of what the

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literature kind of suggests is
that in late adulthood you know,

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older age, we tend to kind of
disregard those gender-role

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socialization.
I think that's starting to

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change.
I think we're doing that a

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little bit earlier than we have
historically, because of these

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types of conversations.
But historically, it's pretty

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much a lifelong process until
well, late into adulthood Is it

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difficult for someone to go
against the way they've been

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socialized to behave as a
gender?

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It really depends.
I would say that in general for

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males, they're much more
prohibitions for kind of, you

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know, crossing over those gender
role expectations.

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Then it is for females, you
know, if you think of, you know,

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children, you know, if a little
girl is playing with trucks or

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climbing trees or plants, In
sports, there tends to be less

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stigma or repercussions.
Then if a boy of the same age as

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may be playing with dolls, or
with dresses or engaging in some

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stereotypical female activities,
there's much more stigma about

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that.
And again, that's starting to

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change a little bit, but overall
there's still more consequences

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for males to do that than there
are for females.

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Is socialization, it's not
really good or bad.

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It just is it's like how it's
How we learn and how we survive

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really absolutely.
It just is it's a process we all

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go through and just like other
parts of socialization not just

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about our gender roles.
It can have both positive and

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negative outcomes and that's
something that is important for

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us to just think about and say
okay how are we socializing

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children?
How are we Socializing, you

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know, young adults and what are
the ramifications of that are

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those?
You know, are there potentially

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positive outcomes or are there
potentially negative outcomes.

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It seems to me that people are
considering those outcomes more

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recently then a generation or
two ago, is that accurate?

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Yes, absolutely.
I think we're kind of looking at

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sort of the root causes of some
problematic behaviors.

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Results of things and kind of
tracing it back to 0.

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There's this socialization
process there are.

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You know, there are certain
issues that are more problematic

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for women.
There are certain issues that

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are more problematic for men.
So clearly gender plays a role

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in that and kind of looking at
well, why is that?

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And when did that start and how
did that start?

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And that's the whole process of
gender-role socialization.

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So what are a few of the
problematic outcomes?

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Male socialization that you see,
well, there's a lot, we could

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look at, you know, just if we
look at some of the statistics,

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that men are at greater risk for
a number of, you know, physical

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health problems.
You know, heart disease, men die

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by Suicide far more frequently
than women, they die from drug

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overdoses, you know, they're
much more violent offenders, you

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know, in the jails Is in the,
you know, justice system.

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So there's a lot of negative
consequences that have real life

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and death kind of results and
you know, that's an important

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thing to look at.
Well, why is that?

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Why is that more of an issue for
men?

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And obviously the reasons for
that are multifaceted but you

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can't deny that.
There is a gender-role

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socialization component to that
because again a lot of it has to

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do with the messages.
You're certain behaviors,

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acceptable for men and not for
women while you're some

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acceptable for women and not for
men and it's when they get

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really restrictive and rigid.
But that's when a lot of these

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problems tend to occur and it is
is that the case for any sort of

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socialization the the more
strict to the rules are the the

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more trouble here is generally,
I mean with when there's any

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kind of rigidity and there can't
be some flexibility, you know,

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it's that black or white
thinking.

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If you can't see Shades of Grey,
it's going to be a problem.

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And that's when we have these
larger societal issues of

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Oppression or sexism or racism,
all the other isms it tends to

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be because we get very rigid in
our thinking.

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There's a right way and a wrong
way.

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A few months ago, I had dr.
Jared diamond on and he shared

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some some Global Research on
death rates.

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And from just being male,
increase your risk of just Deaf

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from anything.
Absolutely.

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Men, historically, you know, are
bigger Risk Takers.

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You know, they don't seek, you
know, medical help as much, you

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know, and so, and we die at a
younger age than women, you

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know, on average.
So when you kind of factor in

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all of those components, it
places at a greater risk.

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What are some of the beneficial
outcomes from gender-role

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socialization?
For men?

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These days.
Sure.

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And I'm glad you bring that up
because there tends to be this,

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you know, movement.
You know, there is the sort of

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men's rights movement in the
1970s followed by, you know, the

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women's lib movement and in sort
of, you know, more modern times,

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we're hearing a lot about toxic
masculinity and the problems

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with that, and the Pendulum has
kind of shifted so much.

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People start getting really
angry and defensive and saying,

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oh just being a man everywhere
everywhere bashing man and being

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a man as bad.
And we're all supposed to be

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feminine.
We're supposed to be like women

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and we're not supposed to be men
and that's not the case at all.

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There are a lot of positive
things that are tied into, you

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know, traditional gender roles,
for men, you know, being

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successful being competitive
leadership. but he's being a

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protector being a provider, you
know, those are all neutral or

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positive qualities and those are
really great things so it's not

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that you don't want to kind of
throw out the baby with the

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bathwater we want to look at all
of the messages and say okay

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which ones are positive and
productive and which ones are

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problematic and why are we kind
of holding on to those and again

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are we having some rigid
thinking about that and can we

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be a little More flexible.
And I think that has certainly

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changed, you know, in the last
generation but there's still

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some work to be done.
And again, it depends on the

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context where you live, you
know, your culture, your race,

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all the other religious
messages, there's a lot of

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components to that is there one
element that is?

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The impact is stronger regarding
socialization.

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Like if your parents say
something is that stronger than

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if you saw it in a movie or is
it different for each

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individual?
I would say it's probably

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different for each individual
and depending on the context,

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you know, because again for
example, everybody's families

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are different, right?
So you know the impact of

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parents in a two-parent home is
going to be different than the

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impact of parents, you know,
from a single-parent family or

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where there's extended family
versus, you know, somebody who

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maybe goes to an all male.
Schools such as I did versus

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co-ed schools.
Versus if you're in an all-male

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institution, that could be, you
know, the military are

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predominantly male or the prison
system.

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It different things are going to
have different, you know,

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degrees of impact on the
individual.

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What about the age a child is,
is it kind of the oldest

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messages?
Stick the the hardest, and the

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longest or does that have
nothing to do?

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With it.
I think it's a cumulative

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effect, you know?
Because if we're getting these

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messages from early childhood
and they're being really

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reinforced, you know, as we get
into, you know, middle

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childhood, they're getting
reinforced when we're

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adolescence there being
reinforced, when we're young

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adults, then that's going to
have a much more lasting impact.

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Whereas if we get some of these
messages early on, you know, and

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that kind of diffuses over time
because again, our context Is

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different.
Then there's going to be you

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know, some buffering effect you
know, just like with everything

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you know, we get messages from
our family that you know when

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we're 18 when we go off to
college maybe we kind of shed

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some of those values, some of
those beliefs and some of us

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will keep them, you know.
So it really kind of depends on

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an individual situation and you
would mention toxic masculinity

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Earth earlier.
So I wonder if would you share

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your definition of what?
That is?

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Sure.
I think it's really.

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Kind of that rigid adherence to
a number of problematic aspects

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of gender role expectations.
And there's a lot of different

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terms out there, you know, in my
research, you know, I was

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looking at things called gender
role conflict, gender-role

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stress, gender role strain.
And basically, it's that

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internal emotional conflict,
that we feel that can really

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have some negative effects.
So if we're thinking about, you

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know, if I feel like I must
Always succeed and compete and

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win, whether that's on the ball
field in the classroom in the

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workforce.
If all I can do is win and I

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Define my male identity, my
manhood, my masculinity, to

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always winning, that's going to
create some problems, you know,

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if it's the issue of, you know,
I can't show emotion because as

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a man I shouldn't do that.
You know, that's going to create

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problems and we can see that in
so many situations.

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We can see how that affects, you
know, relationships.

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We can see how that affects, you
know, Parenthood marriage, you

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know, and then, again, it can
have a lot of negative

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consequences in a lot of way so
that if we adhere to that to

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strictly, you know, that's where
it becomes really toxic, as, as

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does anything, it could be a
political view, it could be a

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religious belief, if we're
really kind of rigid, and we

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can't see another perspective,
or Sent you another perspective.

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That's pretty toxic great.
Yeah, because the people that

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00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:01,200
get upset about that, seem to
think the term tent, toxic

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00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,000
masculinity means masculinity is
toxic right?

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00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,300
It's just no, it's just on the,
on the spectrum of masculinity.

230
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There's an aspect that is too
much.

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Too strict too rigid.
And that can be toxic.

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Absolutely.
Okay.

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Got it.
Beautiful and you mentioned

234
00:14:14,900 --> 00:14:19,500
gender role conflict and so that
does not mean the genders at war

235
00:14:19,500 --> 00:14:22,600
with each other.
It's much more the inner Out of

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00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,000
socialization.
I was taught and actually how

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I'm feeling or living, right?
And, and when there's some

238
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:32,800
conflict about that, if I feel
like, well, I'm supposed to

239
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:38,100
succeed, I'm supposed to win,
but I'm not getting a 4.0 in

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00:14:38,100 --> 00:14:40,000
college.
I'm not winning.

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00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,000
I'm a failure as a man, or I'm
not making partner at the law

242
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,300
firm, so I'm a failure or, you
know, I'm not the most

243
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:51,100
competitive Athlete on the
field.

244
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,000
I'm Les.
An and that impacts a man's

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00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,500
mental health.
And we see all sorts of problems

246
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:01,900
with that.
Where it leads to again,

247
00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:04,800
dysfunctional relationships, it
can lead to substance abuse, it

248
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,800
can lead to Suicide, so it can
be really problematic.

249
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,300
What got you interested in this
as a field of study and work?

250
00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:17,800
It's a good question.
Um, so I had known I wanted to

251
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:21,500
be a psychologist you know since
I was young kind of always knew

252
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you know that's what I was going
to do in college.

253
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:27,200
I was going to go to grad school
and in grad school you know, in

254
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,500
the doctoral program, you know,
you got to write a dissertation,

255
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you've got to learn to do
research and you get paired up

256
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:38,000
with an advisor who's doing
research, and then it was almost

257
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,600
accidental.
I was working with one Professor

258
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:46,000
on one topic of research and
that Professor left and took

259
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,500
their research program with
them.

260
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,700
So I had to be assigned to a
different advisor and it was

261
00:15:50,708 --> 00:15:54,100
just sort of happened stance.
I got assigned to an advisor who

262
00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:57,900
was doing this work in men's
gender-role socialization.

263
00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,800
And so it was an interest of
mine, but it was sort of

264
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,900
accidental, but it was just, you
know, one of those things that

265
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,100
everything happens for a reason
because that was actually pretty

266
00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:10,100
reluctant to do.
New research, that wasn't my

267
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:14,700
thing.
And in order to do research or

268
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,500
at least for myself it has it
had to be something.

269
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I was interested in because you
spend a lot of your life, you're

270
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,200
eating drinking breathing, this
topic until you defend that

271
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:30,600
dissertation.
And so for me, this was a

272
00:16:30,608 --> 00:16:34,000
personal topic I could relate to
it was something that I was

273
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:38,700
seeing in clinical work and I
was also at that time.

274
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:44,400
It's, you know, I, you know, had
a young son and so the whole

275
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,300
thought of what does it mean to
have a son?

276
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:49,300
And how do I raise a son?
And how do I want to raise him

277
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,200
the same way?
I was raised or differently, all

278
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,800
of those things were kind of
happening while this you know

279
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,400
was happening in grad school and
it just kind of made sense.

280
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,800
And so I kind of stuck with
that, you know, and pursue that

281
00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:05,800
line of research and then I was
interested in doing that

282
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,900
clinically in my work as well.
Was there anything that

283
00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:17,599
surprised you in your research?
Probably a lot of things just

284
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:22,300
the, you know, the whole field
of research and how it's done

285
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:27,099
and what it focuses on.
And, you know, it was at a time

286
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:30,000
when there was a lot of focus
on.

287
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,000
For example, there was a
psychology of women course, that

288
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,000
was being taught in my
department, in a lot of

289
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,200
departments around the country
and that was what you took, if

290
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,600
you're interested in gender and
I always thought it was

291
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,500
interesting.
Well, how can there be a

292
00:17:43,508 --> 00:17:48,100
psychology of women if there's
not a psychology of men course,

293
00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:50,900
being offered and part of that
was because there wasn't really

294
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:54,900
being research done on that.
Because what are the response to

295
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:57,700
that was?
Well, all the research, it's on

296
00:17:57,700 --> 00:17:59,300
men.
So, everything that we're

297
00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:01,700
learning is really kind of based
on men.

298
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:05,500
And so we needed to focus on
women and women's experience of

299
00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:08,100
depression, or anxiety, or
whatever the case may be.

300
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:10,100
But there wasn't something
saying.

301
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:13,400
Well, let's look specifically At
men.

302
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,900
So, you know, when I was in grad
school, that was sort of an

303
00:18:16,900 --> 00:18:21,300
up-and-coming field, and but
there was a lot of kind of push

304
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:22,700
back.
You know, if you said you were

305
00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:27,800
kind of studying that, you know,
so I was kind of surprised it

306
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,500
again that sort of reverse
sexism in the academic and the

307
00:18:31,508 --> 00:18:36,300
research world.
How did all that research affect

308
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:41,000
you as a father?
A lot, you know, I, you know,

309
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:45,200
for me as As somebody who was
training to be a psychologist,

310
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:51,300
and a child psychologist at that
time, having, you know, children

311
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:54,700
was like having a child, psych
lab 24/7.

312
00:18:55,300 --> 00:19:00,500
So it was instrumental in my, in
my education because, you know,

313
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:03,700
you can read something, you can
study, something you can learn

314
00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:06,300
about something, but it's really
implementing it.

315
00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:09,000
And when you see it, you know,
as anybody does, you know,

316
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,300
raising a child.
You're living it and breathing

317
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:13,200
it.
It's just a Wild, you know,

318
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,500
psychology laboratory and my
first two children ended up

319
00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:19,300
being male.
And so, with this piece of it,

320
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,900
it was really pronounce of like,
okay, I really need to think

321
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:26,200
about, you know, along with
everything else.

322
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,700
How am I socializing my son's
and how are others socializing

323
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:31,900
them?
Because it certainly wasn't just

324
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:36,500
up to me, it wasn't just up to,
you know, both parents, it was

325
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,200
the extended family.
It was their classmates, it was

326
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,100
the things that they were
watching.

327
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,600
Incur in the media and and
learning that okay.

328
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:49,900
Well, I have a very limited role
in this because it's not just up

329
00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:53,600
to me, I can do my part, but I,
at least wanted to be aware of

330
00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,400
the messages that they were
getting and the same was true.

331
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,200
I ended up having a daughter,
you know, and, and that was

332
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,500
important as well.
So it didn't turn into just

333
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:08,100
hyper-vigilant helicopter, dad,
met monitoring every message

334
00:20:08,100 --> 00:20:10,700
that was received.
You'd have to ask them, I

335
00:20:10,700 --> 00:20:12,900
certainly hope not.
Certainly hope not.

336
00:20:12,900 --> 00:20:16,800
I hope there was a good balance.
Do it were their conscious

337
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,900
changes from the way that you
were raised?

338
00:20:18,900 --> 00:20:20,400
That that you raised your
children?

339
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,000
There were as I think there is
an every generation.

340
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,500
I think every generation says
well I'm not going to be that

341
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:29,100
type of parent.
I'm going to raise my children

342
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:31,600
this other way, this better way.
And even if you had these great

343
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,800
parents you know I think we
think well I'm going to do an

344
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:40,700
even better job and so you know
as far as the gender role peace,

345
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:44,800
you know, I remember with My
oldest son thinking okay.

346
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,500
Well you know he was young and
you know we had friends who had

347
00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:51,400
kids and they you know some of
them had girls and to get them

348
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,600
dolls a baby doll and we thought
like well there's a lot of you

349
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,300
know important things about
playing with dolls and learning

350
00:20:57,300 --> 00:21:03,200
nurturing skills and so okay
well let's let's get you know a

351
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,900
baby doll for my son and it was
amazing how difficult it was to

352
00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:12,000
find a baby doll, that was not
in a pink box.

353
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:18,100
In the girls, toy section of any
toy store that wasn't marketed

354
00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:20,600
for girls because at that age
you know boys like no, I don't

355
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,100
want the pink toy.
Whatever it is again, so there's

356
00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:25,900
gender-role socialization right
there.

357
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:30,000
So it took a long time to kind
of find a doll that was sort of,

358
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,900
you know, marketed to both
genders or particularly to a boy

359
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:36,600
but that was a change that I
made like really.

360
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,000
My parents would have never
bought a baby doll, you know for

361
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,100
their son.
Again, different generation, you

362
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:46,500
know, different understanding of
what this was.

363
00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:51,300
So I think there were many
things, particularly around what

364
00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:54,300
clothing, they would wear, or
what toys, they could play with.

365
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:58,800
And, you know, my, my oldest son
love, you know, bulldozers and

366
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,000
construction vehicles, and all
of that.

367
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,500
And he had a baby doll that he
would give a Bottle too.

368
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,500
And he's fine and he's fine,
he's driving awesome.

369
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,700
Is it kind of each generation
job to push back at their

370
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:18,400
socialization?
Or is it, is it not that that

371
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,000
automatic are to me?
It seems, like masculine

372
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,000
socialization was really static
for a number of generations and

373
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,600
then started getting challenge.
Right, I think I don't know if I

374
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,800
would say to push back.
I think I would say to it's our

375
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,300
responsibility to examine it,
examine the messages that we're

376
00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:41,600
giving our children and giving
men or women in society and

377
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,200
asking why are we giving those
messages?

378
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,700
And how is that helpful?
How is that productive?

379
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:49,200
Because, again, not everything
is toxic.

380
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,100
So for those things that are
helpful in productive, yeah, we

381
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:56,700
want to continue those things
and for the things that are, you

382
00:22:56,700 --> 00:23:01,200
know, Active for hurtful or
oppressive, in some way.

383
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:04,500
That's when you kind of want to
push back and say, well why are

384
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,000
we doing this and what if we
didn't do that?

385
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,500
You know you know obviously you
know buying that baby doll for

386
00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:14,800
my son didn't do some
irreparable harm you know but I

387
00:23:14,808 --> 00:23:18,400
think that would have been the
fear a generation or so ago.

388
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,100
So it's kind of asking
ourselves.

389
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,300
Why are we doing this?
And could we do it differently?

390
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,100
You know and it's not that with
every boy you gotta buy them a

391
00:23:27,100 --> 00:23:29,500
dog.
All, but it's if they say, I'd

392
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:33,300
like to play with this doll, you
know, I, you know, I want to

393
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,700
play with this toy and if our
answer is no to ask ourselves.

394
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,800
Well, why not?
It's more.

395
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,900
It sounds like it's being
willing and trusting to really

396
00:23:43,900 --> 00:23:48,100
let your child's choices.
Lead the way as opposed to your

397
00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:51,700
rigid rules that you might have
grown up with right in our, in

398
00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:55,100
our own fears because usually
those rules are based in some

399
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:57,600
sort of fear.
Well, if I allow my child to do

400
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,700
this, this bad thing will happen
and parents, you know, their

401
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:03,700
primary instinct is to protect
their children, you know?

402
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:07,700
So that I think is time, you
know, time list that we all want

403
00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:12,000
to protect the Next Generation
and And we should but I think

404
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,300
we've learned over time like
okay well you know maybe we

405
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:19,000
don't have to protect them in
this way or maybe these other

406
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,700
ways we do need to protect the
more.

407
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:23,900
I mean we have seat belts now
that Generations didn't do.

408
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,800
So we're always kind of
re-examining that question of

409
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,200
what we'll keep our kids safe.
And do you have specific advice

410
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,100
for parents today?
That are raising raising boys

411
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:40,200
and they want them to be, you
know, the healthiest version of

412
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,300
men that they can possibly be
Yeah, I think really to just

413
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:49,500
kind of support them and to kind
of examine their own gender-role

414
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:52,200
socialization.
And again ask those questions of

415
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,300
well what served me well and
what maybe didn't serve me so

416
00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:01,400
well and do I want to kind of
pass that on to my child?

417
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,600
Do I want to give them those
same messages as well as again,

418
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,800
pay attention to the messages
that they're receiving from

419
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:13,500
outside the home.
Because again no one pair And

420
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:20,200
you know, has 100% influence on
their child and so you can be as

421
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,200
Progressive or be as open with
gender-role socialization or

422
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,400
with anything but to be aware
that but they're getting other

423
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,700
messages and to communicate with
them and talk with them, you

424
00:25:30,700 --> 00:25:34,100
know, and have those
conversations about, you know,

425
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,700
oh, you know why do you want to
play with that or why can't you

426
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,600
do this or who told you you
couldn't do that and what do

427
00:25:42,608 --> 00:25:44,000
you?
Ink about that.

428
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,800
And, you know, a lot of times
kids get really upset over these

429
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,000
things, you know.
And so just to kind of listen,

430
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:53,700
you know, and maybe kind of
re-correct, they're thinking if

431
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:56,600
they say, well, if I do this,
then, you know, that means I'm a

432
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,200
girl.
Or if I do this, nobody will

433
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,400
like me.
And to say, well no, actually

434
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:06,200
that's not the case, you know?
And in to give them examples and

435
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,300
role models of, you know, well,
boys can do these things and

436
00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:12,900
girls can do those things and
both boys and girls.

437
00:26:13,100 --> 00:26:18,000
These things you know and I
think everything we do, you know

438
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,000
teaches them.
And I think as I said it starts

439
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,100
early on and starts at Birth and
I think just the language that

440
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:27,100
we use you know when again we've
seen changes in language you

441
00:26:27,100 --> 00:26:30,800
know, we use the term
firefighter, not fireman

442
00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:35,700
anymore, you know, or postal
worker or not the mailman.

443
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:40,100
And so just kind of using those
gender neutral things is very

444
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:42,600
powerful because it gives them
the message.

445
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:47,100
Oh, Oh, males could do that but
females could do that, you know,

446
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:49,300
and not using terms like a male
nurse.

447
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:54,600
It's like well, a nurse has a
nurse that kind of implies that

448
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,100
the norm is a female nurse, you
know.

449
00:26:57,100 --> 00:27:01,600
So it's all those subtle
communication, you know, things

450
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,700
that we do that, send these
messages and sometimes

451
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:06,900
unconsciously.
So it again, just kind of

452
00:27:06,908 --> 00:27:09,500
increase our own awareness.
Yeah, I guess it because it

453
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:12,800
sounds like you need a lot of
self-awareness to look at your

454
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,800
own.
Socialization, if you want to

455
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,100
differ it for Offspring or
family members or, you know,

456
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:23,000
relatives that are younger and
looking up to you in some way.

457
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,800
Absolutely.
And again, it's not just, you

458
00:27:25,808 --> 00:27:30,800
know, we're not just impacting
our children as parents, we're

459
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,800
impacting other children.
When they come over to our house

460
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,900
to play, We're impacting other
children when they're in our

461
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:39,600
classroom, we're impacting other
males.

462
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:44,500
And females when we're listing a
job, Bad, you know, with the

463
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:49,400
language we use with whatever
the expectation is, it's again,

464
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,800
it's a daily thing that we all
play a role in and again, just

465
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,800
again having that awareness.
Well, why am I choosing to do it

466
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,900
that way?
Why am I limiting 50 percent of

467
00:27:59,908 --> 00:28:03,300
the population from doing this?
What would happen if that

468
00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:06,900
weren't the case and realize, it
probably wouldn't be the end of

469
00:28:06,908 --> 00:28:09,900
the world.
What are you seeing in your mail

470
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:15,300
clients today?
That is rooted in their

471
00:28:15,300 --> 00:28:20,200
socialization, their gender
socialization, a lot, everything

472
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:26,500
from anxiety depression, again,
substance abuse, you know,

473
00:28:26,500 --> 00:28:30,700
suicidal, thoughts and behavior.
And I would say, the common

474
00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:34,600
element of all of those things
when there's a gender component

475
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:37,700
is the emotion of Shame and that
is a huge.

476
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:42,800
Issue, particularly for men,
because again, what tends to

477
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,200
happen?
When males sort of deviate from

478
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,500
the expectation, is there's a
sense of shame that is less

479
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:54,700
pronounced when females deviate
and you take that and you

480
00:28:54,700 --> 00:29:00,200
combine that with that
expectation that men are strong.

481
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,100
Men are independent men, don't
seek out help and they hold

482
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:07,800
things in and they don't show
emotion and it's like a volcano.

483
00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:12,800
He know, you know, it builds and
builds until it erupts and

484
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,300
oftentimes one of the roughs
it's really problematic and

485
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:22,600
that's too late at that time.
Do you see shame show up more?

486
00:29:22,900 --> 00:29:26,800
Because a man sees that they
have a history of erupting.

487
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,100
Or is it the shame because they
fail to stick to that masculine

488
00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:33,600
path?
That they thought they had to

489
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,200
stay on?
Yeah, it's the shame that they

490
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:38,300
haven't that there's kind of
failed in some way.

491
00:29:38,300 --> 00:29:41,400
They haven't lived up to these
expectations that they're less

492
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:47,500
of a man and that they feel that
others perceive them that way.

493
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:52,100
And so whether it's well, I'm I
want to, you know, I work in a

494
00:29:52,108 --> 00:29:55,400
College Counseling Center and so
it's everything from, you know,

495
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,700
the freshmen who comes in and
says, well, I'm a business major

496
00:29:58,700 --> 00:30:02,300
because that's what my parents
expected of me because I'm going

497
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:07,000
to go in the family business or
whatever the case may be, but

498
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,600
I'm really passionate about art
but I don't dare declare an art

499
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,500
major because that's not seen as
appropriate, you know?

500
00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:18,400
And I'm not going to make money
and that's my job as a man to be

501
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,700
a provider.
And so I can't do that and

502
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,400
they'll stay in a, you know, a
major, for four years, where

503
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,600
they're miserable and they're
not doing well, because they're

504
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,800
not interested in it, and then
they're coming in because

505
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,600
they're depressed, they're
anxious.

506
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,200
Whatever the case, maybe it's
something.

507
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,600
It's always a shock to me in
that, you know, the male

508
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:43,600
stereotype of being independent
and going my own way.

509
00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,100
If there's such a narrow path
that is officially being

510
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:50,300
strictly masculine.
And, you know, it Fear from

511
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:53,900
deviating that.
So are really afraid all the

512
00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:56,300
time.
It seems in their attempt to be

513
00:30:56,300 --> 00:30:59,200
manly, right?
And don't feel comfortable

514
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,900
expressing that.
So, they're afraid alone.

515
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,200
And that's where it's really
dangerous.

516
00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:08,900
Yeah, I agree, who had the
biggest impact on you learning

517
00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:13,400
what it means to be a man.
That's a great question.

518
00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:18,900
I think it was a lot of things.
A lot of people, a lot of

519
00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:23,600
sources I think was my own
internal searching.

520
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:28,300
I don't think I had super rigid
expectations.

521
00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:33,100
You know the thought of being,
you know, a psychologist and

522
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:38,000
before that maybe a teacher
wasn't, you know, devalue did it

523
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,400
wasn't you?
No.

524
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,300
No.
You have to join the military or

525
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:43,800
be a police officer?
Serve, you know, do some Macho

526
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,500
thing.
So there was always that support

527
00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:51,100
and it wasn't explicit about,
you know, all you don't have to

528
00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:54,100
conform to gender roles
expectations but it was just

529
00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:57,000
supporting, you know what I
wanted to do?

530
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,500
And realizing, you know that,
that's okay.

531
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:06,400
So I think by getting that
message I felt like oh, okay.

532
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:09,800
Well, I don't have to
necessarily follow the path.

533
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,700
That maybe I'm seeing other
people do or that.

534
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:16,300
I'm hearing what I'm supposed to
do, you know?

535
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:19,900
And so I think, you know, and
then finding other like-minded

536
00:32:19,900 --> 00:32:22,100
people and kind of exploring
things.

537
00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:24,800
I remember thinking like
learning about, oh, you know,

538
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:29,700
men can be teachers and men can
be nurses and, you know, females

539
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:32,900
can be police officers.
And and I always thought that

540
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:35,300
was, you know, great like oh
okay.

541
00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:40,500
Well it's not as rigid as I was
taught and again, maybe not

542
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:44,100
explicitly but implicitly like,
Oh, I thought they were these

543
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:47,600
these rules in these guidelines.
But well, that's not always the

544
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:52,700
case and so that I think gave me
the freedom to kind of pursue.

545
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:56,100
What I was passionate about does
did attending an all-male

546
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:58,700
school.
Give you a more rigid version of

547
00:32:58,708 --> 00:33:00,900
masculinity or more expansive
one.

548
00:33:02,100 --> 00:33:04,900
It's a great question, you know?
Because I've thought about that

549
00:33:04,900 --> 00:33:09,300
from time and I had never really
had I planned to go to, you

550
00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:12,300
know, an all-boys high school.
I had, you know, been in coed

551
00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:17,200
school up until then and it was
just that this really good, you

552
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,400
know, college prep school that I
went to was an all-boys school,

553
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,400
didn't know if I would get in
but, you know, did well

554
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,600
academically and I got in and I
was a little concerned I'm like,

555
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,500
well, I don't know what this is
going to be like just, you know,

556
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:35,300
because again, all that
gender-role stuff of the

557
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:39,400
competitiveness of You know,
you're supposed to excel at

558
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,300
Sports and this was a very
sports-oriented school, I was in

559
00:33:43,300 --> 00:33:47,600
playing sports, you know, and
just thinking like you know, I'm

560
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,200
gonna, you know, I'm gonna have
a hard time there, you know I

561
00:33:51,208 --> 00:33:54,000
got along well with girls.
You know the boys tended to be

562
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,100
kind of overly competitive at
times and just like okay this is

563
00:33:58,100 --> 00:34:02,900
going to be you know do or die
and that wasn't my experience

564
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:07,800
and I think because when you
just have males Any kind of

565
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,699
fills the role, there's the, you
know, successful, you know,

566
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,600
success-oriented males, the
athletic competitive meals, but

567
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,600
then you also have more
nurturing meals, the fun emails.

568
00:34:21,699 --> 00:34:24,699
The artistic males, you know, we
still had an art program.

569
00:34:24,699 --> 00:34:27,199
We had a music program, so those
were males as well.

570
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:30,000
So I got to see more of a
balance and I think that

571
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:36,699
surprised me because again my
image of boys men was skewed.

572
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:41,100
So I didn't think like, oh,
there are a boys who like art

573
00:34:41,100 --> 00:34:44,500
and there are boys, who are into
music and there are boys, who

574
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,199
are into, you know, social
services and so.

575
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,600
So, it was kind of a nice
balance for me, surprisingly.

576
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:57,200
So, Billy wonder, if there's if
there's one thing that you wish

577
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:03,600
more men knew Hmm, one thing it
could be more than one.

578
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:08,000
But yeah.
I think maybe from my clinical

579
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,900
experience and this kind of
maybe sums up a lot of what

580
00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:18,300
we've been talking about is that
I try to give the mail clients.

581
00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:23,800
The message that it's okay to
ask for help and that's actually

582
00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:27,400
a sign of strength, because so
many feel that it's a weakness,

583
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,700
a sign of weakness and The one
message I say is it's really a

584
00:35:31,700 --> 00:35:35,400
sign of strength to ask for
help, because if that's what

585
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,600
keeps you from abusing
substances, if that's what keeps

586
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,300
you out of jail.
If that's what keeps you alive,

587
00:35:43,700 --> 00:35:46,600
you know.
That's a sign of strength and

588
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,700
that's helping your family.
That's helping your society.

589
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,200
And that takes a lot of strength
because it's not easy to do

590
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:58,100
that.
And again I think more men are

591
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:01,400
getting that.
At and feeling more comfortable

592
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,900
with that, then they did just a
few years ago.

593
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:07,400
But that would maybe be the one
takeaway message.

594
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,700
I would want men to get awesome.
Yeah, I could not agree more.

595
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:12,800
I often say that.
Oftentimes, the bravest thing

596
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,600
you can do is ask for help.
Absolutely.

597
00:36:16,700 --> 00:36:19,400
So Bill, what's the best way for
people to get in touch with you?

598
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,000
Find out more about you or thing
that you're up to?

599
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:28,200
Yeah, people can email me.
My email address is defrank w at

600
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:33,200
aol.com.
Um, that's tefra NCW at AOL.com

601
00:36:34,300 --> 00:36:37,400
and I'm always happy to, you
know, consult with people around

602
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:42,100
these issues and share readings
or research or my clinical

603
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:43,500
experience.
Awesome.

604
00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:46,400
Cool.
Thanks for this this wealth of

605
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,100
knowledge and this really
cursory introduction to

606
00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:52,600
gender-role socialization,
especially for men, but it's

607
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,100
something that everybody's lived
and living all the time.

608
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:58,800
Absolutely now, yeah, just
raised.

609
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,900
That awareness and notice and be
willing to question, why do I

610
00:37:01,908 --> 00:37:03,500
think that, why do I act that
way?

611
00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:05,400
Where who taught me that, that
was the thing to do.

612
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:08,800
So right, we're always learning.
Yeah, indeed.

613
00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:11,400
Thanks for joining us, everyone.
Wherever you are discovering

614
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,100
real men.
Feel, please, give us some

615
00:37:13,100 --> 00:37:15,700
scribe follow, like the comment,
share this with somebody post a

616
00:37:15,707 --> 00:37:18,100
review.
You can always reach me at real

617
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:19,700
men.
Feel at gmail.com.

618
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,900
Always glad to hear from you.
And until next time, be good to

619
00:37:22,908 --> 00:37:23,500
yourself.