Healing from Emotional Abuse: Breaking the Chains of Trauma

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer, Andy Grant.

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Please visit theandygrant.com to
learn more about me.

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Real Men Feel reminds the men
that they are human beings and

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have the right to experience and
express all of their emotions.

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We have conversations that most
men are not having, but that all

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men can benefit from.
My guest today is Patrick Doyle.

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Patrick is a best selling author
and a seasoned expert in

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emotional abuse recovery,
addiction counseling, and

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spiritual leadership.
With over three decades of

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experience, he has dedicated his
life to helping abuse survivors

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and those battling addiction to
find their path to healing and

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freedom.
Patrick shares some of his

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experiences of trauma, abuse,
and addiction.

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We discussed the importance of
safety, the danger of labels,

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and problems associated with
avoiding pain.

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Patrick tells us the one thing
he'd remove if he were king of

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the world and one thing he
wishes more men knew.

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Let's do it.
So Patrick, I know that you are

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an expert in emotional abuse
recovery, addiction counselling

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and spiritual leadership.
And I imagine 1 does not end up

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there without having some
personal experiences with those.

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So, you know, maybe the best
place to start is if you could

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tell me a bit about what life
was like growing up.

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Yeah.
Oh good, I'm glad you asked that

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because what you just said is so
true.

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The vast majority of my
understanding of these difficult

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and nuanced things is personal
experience and then having the

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privilege of walking with
thousands of others through the

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very difficult waters.
I was born into a very

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destructive alcoholic family.
My mom was an alcoholic.

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My dad was a three war veteran,
PTSD alcoholic and violent and

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dangerous.
Later in my life, he was a

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kneecap breaker for the mob.
If you didn't pay your gambling

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debt, you got to see my dad, you
know?

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So when I was 10 years old, my
mom died of alcoholism on

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Christmas morning, which was
pretty tragic 'cause I'm the

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youngest of four and I am 10
years younger than any of my

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siblings minimum.
So my mom had me when she was

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42.
She died when she was 52.

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So in essence, I was alone with
the lunatic by the time I was

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10.
And that's when I, you know, 10

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years old.
I started, I started smoking pot

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as a way to cope.
And by the time I was 11/12, I

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was went to the library to
research how to poison my dad

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'cause I wanted to stop the
harm.

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I didn't want him to die, but I
didn't want to get beat up

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anymore.
I don't want to get it was he

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was dangerous.
And then, you know, I'm a kid

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and he'd like go on benders for
two or three days or who knows

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what he was doing.
I'm a 11 year old kid at home by

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myself.
I don't know if he's going to

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come home.
I don't know how to get food.

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I mean, it was it wasn't
enjoyable.

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Well, can we just say that?
Yeah, yeah, that's the

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understatement of the year.
What's that?

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The understatement of the year.
Yeah, right, right.

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So that set a trajectory for me
early on.

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And by the time I was like 14,
my dream in life was to be the

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head of a drug cartel.
And at 16, I was living in my

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own place, my own apartment in
Florida, well on my way to

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accomplishing my goal.
So think about it for a second.

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What does a 16 year old with
money and lots of drugs do

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become a pillar of, of the
community?

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No, at least that's not what I
did.

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And then at 17, there's a lot, a
lot of story there that I'm

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leaving out.
But at 17, my sister, who's 13

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years older than me, invited me
to move back to Oregon.

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I'd already lived with her once
and I, I was so terrible the

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first time that she kicked me
out knowing that I was going

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back to my dad.
And it could be a death

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sentence, but I just because she
had a young family, she couldn't

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handle my drugs and all the
stuff I was doing.

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And so at 17, I went to live
with her again.

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And then I had a religious
experience.

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And that's when I started to try
to do some things differently

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instead of be self-destructive.
So by the time I was 18, I was

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in the military.
And here's a funny story, Annie.

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So I was so high one day on the
way to school.

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Now I was trying to get sober.
Don't get me wrong, I was, I

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was, I was in the throes of
trying to stop.

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But one day I just got I hadn't
been smoking much.

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And then one day I just said I
was going to smoke and I went to

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school and I was like realizing
I'm way too high to go to class.

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So I can't go to class and I
can't, I don't know what I'm

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going to do.
So I'm walking through the

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school and I noticed there's a
sign that says, you know, ask

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fab today in the in the
auditorium.

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So the military aptitude test,
they were giving it in the

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auditorium like perfect, I can
go take that test.

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I can just chill out.
And by the time that's over,

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I'll be sober enough to go to
class.

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Well, I had a thing.
I hated the military.

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My dad was a three war veteran.
He taught ROTC.

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You know, I, I, I had sworn to
myself I would never go in the

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military.
Long story short, I'd get out of

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the S Fab and then a few weeks
later I start getting all these

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calls from recruiters and
they're like, man, your S fab

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scores are really good.
I'm like, what I was.

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So I remember none of it, but
evidently I did pretty good.

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Or it's a pretty easy test.
I don't know, but Long story

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short, they, they recruited me
and they said, you know, there's

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this program where you can go
from high school to, to chopper

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school and, and learn to be a
chopper pilot.

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And they were at, at that time
they were trying to, you know, I

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think try to bolster that or
whatever.

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So they're like, if you can pass
the aptitude, blah, blah, blah,

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then you can do this program.
And I'm like, awesome.

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And my sole motivation was
'cause, you know, chopper pilots

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got more chicks.
That was, that was my 18 year

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old version of the world.
Like, that'll be awesome.

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I'll be able to fly choppers and
I'll date Well.

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And so I pass the app to see
everything.

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And so I'm, I'm on my way to,
you know, get signed up and, and

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I at the, at the station there,
they, they do two more tests to

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do a color vision test and some
physical something.

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Well, I couldn't pass the color
vision test.

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And it's the ones where that's
all the dotted circles and you

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got to pick up the numbers in
the circles.

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Couldn't do it.
And I, I'm not color blind, but

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I couldn't do it.
Maybe I got too high the day

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before, I don't know.
But Long story short, I'm

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sitting down the guys, well, if
you can't see color, you can't

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be a chopper pilot.
And I'm like, well, I don't want

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to be in the military.
Then he's like, well, that's not

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really how it works.
You already signed up.

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And I'm like, what are you going
to do?

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If I just walk out of here?
He's like, well, nothing, we'll

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just dishonorably discharge you.
And I'm like my dad's face in

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front of my.
I'm like, well, is there

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anything else I can do?
So in 10 minutes, I went from

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being a chopper pilot to being a
behavioral science specialist,

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which is basically a counselor
in the Army.

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And I'd never wanted to be a
counselor.

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I was barely inside my own
brain.

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Like, what?
You guys are crazy.

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You're going to let me do that?
Long story short, I got in the

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military, started doing the
training, and that's when I

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finally got sober for the first
time.

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Like for real.
Like really like long term, no

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drugs, no nothing.
I was never a drinker because of

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my dad, but I did a lot of drugs
and I had a lot of pain, Andy,

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just so much pain and I didn't
know what to do with it.

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I had no model.
My mom, she sat in a chair in

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the living room, rocked, smoked
cigarettes and drank and that's

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it.
That's all I remember.

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So I never had any example or
any training of how to do

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anything.
So here I am in the military,

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I'm in counseling school and
I'm, I'm my, my own subject.

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You know, I'm like, Dang, I got
problems.

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And fortunately I had a couple
of really good supervisors in

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the military that really, really
helped me.

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They, they really saw it and
they, they really cared for me.

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And they, and, you know, I
actually, the truth is I was the

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number one person in my
counseling school and the, and

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the, and the, the guys were
like, how do you know this

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stuff?
You ever been to school?

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You ever?
And then I'm like, no, later I

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realized, 'cause I lived with a
lunatic.

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So I know how to read people.
You know, when he walked in the

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room, I'm like, like, how much
alcohol can I smell?

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How angry is it?
What does his eyes look like?

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What does his body language?
I mean, I was all unconscious to

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me, but I still had those skills
And they were like, you're

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really good at, you're really
good at those reading people

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thing.
I'm like, OK, but you know, I

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started to start to really pick
into the reality, my own soul,

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my own, and that's how it
started.

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And that's how I became who I am
today is by dealing with the

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reality that was presented to me
instead of denying my thing is

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one of my favorite sayings is
the avoidance of pain is the

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beginning of all unhealthy
behavior.

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And you know, God bless my dad,
but he never dealt with the

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trauma.
And now he, you know, it was, he

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didn't know he, you know, lied
about his age to go to World War

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2 to fight for the country and
got traumatized, came back, went

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to Korea, you know, came back,
was in during Vietnam.

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I mean, like that, you know,
like that's a lot of trauma.

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But he never knew how to do it.
So I realized that, you know, I

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want to help people be
unburdened from the lies that

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they were told.
It just developed over time,

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like one job to a next and just
picking stuff up.

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But that principle, not avoiding
pain, has been my greatest gift.

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And then it's also something
that's helped me help thousands

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of other people to help them
move into the pain instead of

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avoid it with substance or, you
know, religion or, you know,

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fill in the blank, working out,
eating you.

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You can turn anything into a
compulsion.

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And I have a strong belief,
Andy, that compulsion is always

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the result of a lack of peace.
And so this is one of the

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reasons why I think a A has had
such profound success, because

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the first three steps are about
realizing you don't have control

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and turning your life over to
somebody else who can help you.

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And the fourth step is I, I did
a searching for fearless moral

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inventory, like I looked at what
was wrong with me or what I

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perceived was wrong with me.
And so that's something that

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most of us avoid.
There's a couple reasons in my

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mind.
One reason that I avoided is

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because there was no safety.
I looked around my, I'm like,

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I'm not going to tell anybody
anything.

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I'll get, I'll get a, I'll get
beat up.

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So that's the other part of one
of the things I really am

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passionate about is creating a
safety for people to be honest,

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because I don't believe anybody
will be honest without that

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safety.
And if you are honest, without

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safety, you'll regret it.
So there's a lot to unpack

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there.
I I appreciate you sharing so

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man, I appreciate you surviving
it all and discovering that you

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didn't have to be high as a kite
to do well in school.

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No.
And and you know, one of the

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things I, I, I, I, I know you
know this, but I, I did just

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publish my first book and very
interesting story.

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It took four years.
OK, but here's the caveat.

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All the material was already
done.

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I had built an online program
and created a whole video

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series, which is basically this
information.

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So it wasn't like I had to go
figure it out.

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I already knew it, but it took
four years.

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And the reason why I didn't
understand this at the time, one

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of the things my dad used to say
to me a lot when he was beating

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me was you're stupid.
You're stupid.

222
00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,560
And obviously I believed him.
What choice did I have as a kid,

223
00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:50,080
right.
So I, I noticed that in my

224
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:55,000
process with the book, every
time I had a deadline, I just, I

225
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,000
just had so much internal
resistance.

226
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,640
It's just, I'm like, what?
I could find anything to do

227
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,280
besides the thing I needed to
do, right?

228
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:10,200
And as I started processing
through it, it clicked my

229
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,800
message in my soul was it still
was there at some level I'm

230
00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,200
stupid.
Well, you can't be stupid and

231
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,480
write a book.
Those don't, they're not, they

232
00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,960
don't go together.
So I, I didn't know this, but

233
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,880
subconsciously I was resisting
the book because it went against

234
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,400
my belief.
And so there was actually me

235
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,400
going through the, the books
already helped heal me just

236
00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,640
because I went through the
process.

237
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,720
And so I see this all the time
with people.

238
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,520
They have subconscious strong
beliefs that they're not really

239
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,080
aware of, but if you look at
their behavior it's a neon sign.

240
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,080
Like why are you so
self-destructive?

241
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,160
Oh I'm fine, but I'm not doing
self-destructive.

242
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,560
Well why are you 200 lbs every
weighter?

243
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:53,280
Why are you smoking a pack of
cigarettes a day?

244
00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:54,960
Or why are you working 70 hours
a week?

245
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,320
Or fill in the blank.
Why do you go to church 7 * a

246
00:12:57,320 --> 00:12:58,320
week?
Whatever.

247
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,160
Oh so this is the thing.
Like if we don't have the

248
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,160
willingness to look, then we
just keep up the bad patterns,

249
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:11,440
right?
And if I had one power to, if I

250
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,600
could do one thing to the world,
I would eliminate denial.

251
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,600
That'd be a chaotic world for a
while, but we'd get to a better

252
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,280
place eventually.
Yeah, right on on the other side

253
00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,280
of that chaos.
Yeah, right.

254
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:28,840
We have some real utopia.
So can you expand more on the

255
00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,640
religious experience that as a
drug dealing with a your dream

256
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:34,440
is to still run a cartel?
Like what?

257
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,320
What?
What stopped that in the tracks?

258
00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:42,120
Well, so, well, right before I
moved back out here, I was in my

259
00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:46,680
apartment one day and the guy
that was my supplier, I didn't

260
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:51,200
know this, but he was in the mob
and I'd been stealing some drugs

261
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,520
from him.
I thought, I thought I was being

262
00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,200
doing it in a way that he didn't
know I'm 16 and I'm high.

263
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,600
I didn't, you know, come on,
it's lucky I was.

264
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,640
I could, you know, wake up in
the morning.

265
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,440
But anyway, he came to my house
one day and he took out his gun.

266
00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,440
He pointed it right in my head
and he said, Lo, if you steal

267
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,400
from me, anything else, I will
kill you.

268
00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,880
And I want everything you've
stolen from me.

269
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,120
I'm like, you can have
everything.

270
00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,680
Just take whatever it means,
whatever we need to do to be

271
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:20,840
square, take it.
And of course he did.

272
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,920
But at that moment, I was like,
I got to get out of here 'cause

273
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,680
he's going to kill me.
I don't know that I can control

274
00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,400
myself.
I don't know that he's being

275
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,280
honest.
I don't know what it is, but I

276
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:33,960
knew it wasn't bad.
I mean, it wasn't good.

277
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,920
I was bad.
So simultaneously, my dad had

278
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:41,240
also gotten himself in some hot
water and he asked if I could

279
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,160
drive him to another part of the
country because he wanted to be

280
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,400
around some other people and he
was too incapacitated from

281
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:52,600
alcoholism to drive.
So I I said, yeah, but you have

282
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,000
under one condition, which I
never said this to my dad, like

283
00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,840
under one condition, I'll do
something for you.

284
00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,680
I was always looking how high.
And he's like, what?

285
00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,640
And I'm like, you got to get my
sister to take me back because I

286
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:06,800
knew I could get out of here.
And I was in Florida.

287
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,280
She's in Oregon.
That's enough space.

288
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,240
I think I'll be all right.
And so sure enough, it worked

289
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,680
out.
I came here on a Friday in 1980

290
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,920
and on a that, that same Sunday
I went to church with her for

291
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,320
the first time.
In the interim of me being gone,

292
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,400
her and her husband have had
gone to church and become strong

293
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,680
Christians.
And so the first time I was went

294
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,760
to church with them and I'm
like, OK, I'm, I don't want to

295
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,120
die.
I want to live forever or

296
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,000
whatever.
I was like, let's do something

297
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,600
different cause what I've been
doing ain't working out too

298
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,360
good.
And that started a process for

299
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,960
me of really starting to change
my life and gave me motive.

300
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,440
And it certainly helped that I
was living with them.

301
00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,360
And they were people that cared
about me.

302
00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,880
I'd never had that before.
I had never been cared about.

303
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:57,960
And I say this all the time, but
I don't believe that information

304
00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,720
changes people, Andy.
I think that care does.

305
00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,120
Information lets you know
there's a problem, but being

306
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,240
cared about is what gives you
the courage to face it.

307
00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:10,240
And that's what happened.
I didn't know that at the time,

308
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:13,440
obviously.
Did your dad ever get help?

309
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,880
No.
He died an alcoholic.

310
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,280
And The funny thing is it's like
when I was in the military, he

311
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,560
got really sick and none of my
siblings wanted anything to do

312
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,440
with it.
So the military would move me.

313
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:34,120
So I moved back to and I took
care of my dad while he died and

314
00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,040
it was horrible.
I mean, here's The funny thing

315
00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:40,520
is just this is just something I
think people need to know when

316
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,640
you're talking about trauma.
Like here I am, I'm 2021.

317
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:51,680
I'm, you know, five, 760 lbs of
ripped muscle.

318
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,480
I'm in the military, I'm
trained.

319
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:57,880
I could snap the man's neck.
He's old, he's feeble, he's

320
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,640
dying, not like he used to be,
but who was?

321
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:07,119
Who was the one that was afraid?
It was me, even though I had all

322
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,560
the power.
He's psychologically, if he

323
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,000
looked at me sideways, I'm like
backing up against the wall,

324
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:18,200
like I was afraid of him, but I
took care of him and I don't, I

325
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,400
don't know how I did that, but
I, I did it.

326
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:28,280
And one of the last times I saw
him before he died, 'cause he

327
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,960
didn't want me there when he
died, he, he didn't say that,

328
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:35,600
but he had me go back to see my
sister and to drive a car back.

329
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:41,240
And he was standing on the steps
of his house and he was waving

330
00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:46,120
goodbye to me and he was crying.
First time in my life I've seen

331
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:50,880
that because I was leaving.
Nothing was ever said.

332
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,200
But that was important to me.
Like, oh, maybe he does care,

333
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,080
But I think he was crying about
himself because he knew he was

334
00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,440
going to die.
I don't know.

335
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,840
He never talked.
But you know, those were.

336
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:04,840
Whoever the tears were for, you
hadn't seen them before.

337
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:07,760
I had not seen them before and I
didn't know it was possible.

338
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,000
To be honest with you.
I didn't he because he always

339
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,440
told me that crying was weak.
And if I was, if I was strong, I

340
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,680
wouldn't need to cry.
And I was always a very

341
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,520
sensitive soul.
I just was born that way.

342
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,200
It's just part of my, that's one
of my gifts.

343
00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,080
I wish I'd have known that many
years of my life instead of

344
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:26,880
feeling like I'm some sort of
weirdo.

345
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,320
Because I am sensitive and I
want to.

346
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,960
I have a feeling.
But that's everybody.

347
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,760
All of us have them.
It's about how you handle them

348
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:36,760
is more important than whether
or not you have them.

349
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:42,480
Do you find that experiencing
abuse makes addiction more

350
00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,400
likely?
Great question.

351
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:49,800
I would say it this way, Andy, I
mean, I don't know if he knows,

352
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:52,800
but I worked in drug rehab for
20 years.

353
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,000
I've worked in outpatient,
inpatient, in between patient,

354
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:02,480
you know, I worked in psych
wards, I've worked in a lot of

355
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,520
spots.
So I've treated thousands of

356
00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,880
addicts.
And one thing I will tell you is

357
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,520
I don't, I no longer actually
believe in the disease concept.

358
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,960
So that's a whole conversation
we could have, but I've never

359
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,680
met an addict that from their
perspective in which that's the

360
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,960
perspective that matters, didn't
have deep pain.

361
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,680
And what the addiction is, is
the symptom of them dealing with

362
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,920
the pain.
And so if I, if my leg is

363
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,680
killing me and it won't go away
and you give me an opiate, I'm

364
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,080
like, Oh God, thank you keep
coming.

365
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:41,080
Because that pain, I don't want
to experience it.

366
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,320
You think about that in
emotional sense, but they're not

367
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,880
saying they're in pain, you
know, but I've, I've watched

368
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,240
both my parents die from it.
My sister died from it, 3 uncles

369
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,680
died from it.
I mean, like it's all, but when

370
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,920
you start looking at the family
system, there's just all this

371
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,200
pain everywhere, but no one's
talking about it.

372
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:01,360
No one's talking about what
happened.

373
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:03,600
No one's talking about how to
cope with it healthily.

374
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,720
Everybody's just like sticking
their head in the sand and

375
00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:09,640
taking another drink.
So it's pain from my perspective

376
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:15,640
that's undealt with and that we,
I think our, I think our country

377
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:18,600
in particular is like up to its
eyeballs and that right now.

378
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:23,160
So you definitely experienced
physical abuse growing up?

379
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,720
Correct.
How do you define emotional

380
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,160
abuse?
Well I also I was also

381
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,320
emotionally abused because while
my dad was beating me he was

382
00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:37,560
yelling horrible things at me.
Then I got married in my late

383
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,600
20s and my ex-wife is profoundly
abusive emotionally.

384
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,680
So that's also how I know I
lived in it and my religious

385
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,760
belief structure kept me in it
way longer than it would have

386
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,520
been would would have somebody
else would have been like, this

387
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,000
is not tenable.
We got to get out of here.

388
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,600
But you know, I had lots of
reasons and I was a personality

389
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,680
in the community.
I was on the radio and TV, blah,

390
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,880
blah, blah, had all these
reasons to justify staying.

391
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,160
But so emotional abuse is the
systematic destruction of one

392
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,960
person's soul by the person
they're with.

393
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,240
It's the systematic harming of
another soul to the point where

394
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,920
they feel like they're always
the problem, no matter what the

395
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,960
situation.
And the problem with emotional

396
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,480
abuse is, it's so nuanced.
And that's why I called my book

397
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,480
The Death of 1000 Cuts, because
if somebody shows up my office

398
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,000
and they get a black eye,
everybody's like, OK, we know

399
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,920
what happened.
You show up in my office and

400
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,000
you're smiling and you're acting
like everything's fine, but

401
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,360
you're you're dying from 1000
cuts.

402
00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:37,120
No one can see and you're
bleeding to death.

403
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,720
That's a much more difficult
thing to, to deal with.

404
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,600
And everybody who's in an
emotionally abusive situation is

405
00:21:45,120 --> 00:21:49,240
is has a lot of denial because
that's how we survive it.

406
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,960
I didn't survive all those years
of being married to somebody

407
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:53,480
harming me 'cause I was in the
truth.

408
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,640
I rationalized, spiritualized,
minimized, justified, denied,

409
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:00,800
you name it.
I was give me a tool.

410
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,640
I'm going to use it 'cause I was
committed to staying for various

411
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,560
reasons.
And This is why I work with a

412
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,000
lot of ladies.
And they're like, well, I just

413
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:10,000
like, I, I know I should leave
them.

414
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,040
Like, wait, wait, wait.
You, you leaving is really up to

415
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,560
you.
And that, that everyone, it's

416
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,360
like that time comes when it
comes, there's no, there's no

417
00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:21,800
should I always say to people,
I, I really encourage you not to

418
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,000
should on yourself.
It's a shame statement.

419
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,000
I don't know, but I don't know
what you should do.

420
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,160
I'll be here for you, but I
don't know.

421
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,200
I got some opinions but
ultimately you could decide, not

422
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,560
me.
Are are some of those ways that

423
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,200
denial is used?
Are there also?

424
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,640
Are those also the same kind of
tools that that narcissists use

425
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,040
to to twist the truth?
Well, so one of the things that

426
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:45,240
so let's talk.
This is great.

427
00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,520
I'm glad you asked, brought this
up because I, I tend to and if

428
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,960
you read my book, you won't find
a lot of the terminology in

429
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,400
there.
And the reason why is this,

430
00:22:55,400 --> 00:23:01,400
whether somebody's diagnosed
narcissistic or not, narcissism,

431
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,240
much like addiction to me, is
the symptom of the problem.

432
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,120
OK.
The reason why a narcissist is

433
00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:11,120
harmful is because they believe
their own lies.

434
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,160
They are convinced that what
they're saying is true in spite

435
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,080
of any evidence, which is why
the people around them start to

436
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:24,080
feel crazy.
Because they teach you through

437
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,280
all this activity that your
perception of reality is wrong.

438
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,280
And when you no longer can trust
your own perception of reality,

439
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,680
you're going to feel crazy.
And meanwhile they're lying,

440
00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:37,960
rationalizing, minimizing,
justifying, spiritualizing,

441
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,320
whatever to make their narrative
true.

442
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,920
And you know it, it is, I always
say it's, it's the courage of

443
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,120
Olympic level.
When someone has the ability to

444
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:54,840
get out of that, it's always
Olympic level courage.

445
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,960
There's just no way around it.
There's no easy, there's no easy

446
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,360
button on it.
There's no three-step guaranteed

447
00:24:00,360 --> 00:24:04,720
plan because emotional abuse is
so nuanced.

448
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,280
So what's your belief structure?
What's your spiritual life?

449
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,960
What what's your family support?
How much money, how much

450
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,400
control?
What's their thing?

451
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,400
And there's so many things you
have to look at, which is why

452
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,360
when I see these
one-size-fits-all, I'm like,

453
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,600
danger, Will Robinson danger,
you know, it's not going to work

454
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,080
out.
So you have to really get into

455
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:25,640
the weeds of it to really
understand it.

456
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,240
And so that's why that's one
reason why I also put off

457
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,800
writing a book because I didn't
want people taking these ideas

458
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,280
and then thinking it was a cure.
So I really, really worked at

459
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,400
keeping things in a principal
mindset, not in a, here are the

460
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,560
four things you need to do.
It's like, here are the

461
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,080
principles.
Well, how does that fit your

462
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,200
circumstance?
Because you have all the

463
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,000
knowledge of your circumstance.
I don't.

464
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,400
But if I'm in a counseling
session and I have all the

465
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:51,680
circumstantial knowledge, that's
different.

466
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,640
Like, I can really be involved
in that because I know, but I, I

467
00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:01,640
get worried about advice to
people that have very nuanced

468
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,920
circumstances because, look,
they're desperate for a fix, but

469
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,000
it can also be harmful for them
to go down certain roads because

470
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,440
the person they're with is
dangerous.

471
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:17,600
In in your experience and in
dealing with with with clients,

472
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:23,840
how does childhood trauma impact
emotional expression of men?

473
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,000
Well, again, there's a lot of
nuance there, but I would say

474
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,200
this, the vast majority of
trauma, with every trauma

475
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,680
there's associated, there's an
associated message, right?

476
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,440
And that message always boils
down to one thing in my mind.

477
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,720
You're inadequate, you're the
problem, you're defective,

478
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,760
you're not worth the skin you're
printed in.

479
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,520
That becomes the bottom line.
If I believe I'm defective, I'm

480
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,400
not good enough, how's that
going to work out for me?

481
00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:57,600
Do you think I'll have a pretend
propensity towards self

482
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,000
destruction?
For sure, yeah.

483
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,600
Do you think I'll have a
propensity towards towards being

484
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,120
vulnerable and opening myself
up?

485
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,240
No.
So all the avenues of

486
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:12,920
healthiness are then shut down
by that, by that lie that you're

487
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,720
the problem.
And so this is, there's a,

488
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,600
there's a chapter in my book
where I talk about how to

489
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:24,760
actually deal with that.
And there's, you know, there's a

490
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,120
lot of nuance there, but you
know, addressing that lie is the

491
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:32,240
beginning of the healing.
The healing is not from a

492
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,880
technique.
The, the techniques only work

493
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,320
when I'm addressing that core
lie.

494
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,280
And if somebody sees themselves
as not valuable, then they are

495
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,720
abusable because they believe
it's normal.

496
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,560
And and again, there's a,
there's a continuum, right?

497
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,520
Like, I might see myself as 5%
not valuable.

498
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,840
I might be seeing myself as 95%
not, not valuable if I see

499
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,920
myself as 95% not valuable.
And I can help you move that

500
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,720
from 95 to 94.5.
That's a radical life change.

501
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,640
And then we want to go to 94 and
then on down.

502
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:10,360
But I don't think 0 is possible
in this world that we live in.

503
00:27:10,360 --> 00:27:12,200
Yeah.
Yeah, I agree.

504
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,000
What's the first step that
someone should take if if

505
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,760
hearing your story and hear this
whole conversation, they are

506
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:23,120
recognizing abusive patterns in
their own behavior or in the

507
00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:24,080
relationship?
What what?

508
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:29,480
What's something they can do?
Well, you have to first of all

509
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,000
congratulate yourself for
recognizing it and celebrate.

510
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,160
Wow.
OK, there's problems.

511
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,800
Then I would encourage
documentation.

512
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,440
What is it that you're realizing
and why?

513
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,040
Why is that?
Is it because of that person's

514
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,520
behavior?
Is it because of your childhood?

515
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,480
Is it because of this, this
particular relationship?

516
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,360
Whatever, whatever.
Because here's the thing, in our

517
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:54,640
heads, I write something down
and guess what?

518
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,480
And look at it in two days, it's
exactly the same.

519
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,120
It's never that way in my head.
So This is why I really

520
00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:03,840
encourage documentation because
it helps me gain some clarity.

521
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,840
And then when I'm saying
documentation, I'm not like

522
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,120
saying I'm going to sit down for
25 minutes and expose my soul.

523
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,280
No, I'm like, I'm driving in the
car.

524
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:14,560
And for me, like, dude, the
voice memo on my phone,

525
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:16,560
lifesaver.
I'm driving down the road in the

526
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,640
car and this thought hits me.
I'm like, hey, I was thinking

527
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:21,840
about this.
And then I thought this, and I

528
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,040
thought that back to driving,
you know, because that's how

529
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,280
this stuff percolates.
When you're traumatized, you're

530
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:34,040
taught to suppress because when
my dad's beating me and he's

531
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,960
saying horrible things, what am
I going to do?

532
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,800
Allow myself to be open and
present?

533
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:44,160
No, I'm, I'm don't, you know,
And so I'm, I'm shutting down.

534
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:50,480
So suppression becomes like our
number one go to mechanism and

535
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,560
it and it's so it's so deeply
embedded when there's trauma,

536
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,480
particularly that it's not even
conscious.

537
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,040
I'm 2 miles down the road of
suppression before I even

538
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,040
realize what's happening, right.
So This is why I'm saying if you

539
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,400
do have an awareness, you should
celebrate because that means

540
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,800
you're not suppressing and not
suppressing is the pathway to

541
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,920
freedom and what and whatever it
happens, whatever, no matter how

542
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,720
much.
So that's why if I start to

543
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:19,840
document it, then I can go back
later and be like, oh, and then

544
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,040
what happens is like a bread
Trump crayol bread Trump

545
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,440
breadcrumb trail that you oh,
things start to connect.

546
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,960
Oh, so when my dad's.
Oh, and then.

547
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,000
Oh, so that's why when my wife
says that, I feel that.

548
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,480
Oh, wait.
Oh, OK.

549
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,560
And even better if you can have
a safe place with another human

550
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,320
being without judgement to say
those things like, this is what

551
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:43,960
I was feeling.
And this made me feel that way.

552
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,320
And what about this?
The problem with, I find a lot

553
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,800
of modern counseling is that
it's too objective.

554
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:50,800
There's not enough opinion
involved.

555
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,280
Like, well, so how did you feel?
I felt angry.

556
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:56,200
OK, well, tell me why.
And well, I felt angry because,

557
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:57,960
well, so where else do you feel
that instead of.

558
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,480
Oh, OK.
And well, do you think maybe

559
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,120
that that maybe you were feeling
triggered because of the way

560
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:05,240
your wife treated you?
Yeah.

561
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,160
OK.
All right.

562
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,600
Well, let's talk about that
instead of everything's neutral.

563
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:10,560
No, I don't need somebody that's
neutral.

564
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:12,280
I need somebody who's going to
be with me.

565
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,680
Not not judgmental, not
controlling, but with me, and

566
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,760
this is what I'm saying, like
being with people, caring,

567
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,200
That's what helps them change.
They got the information.

568
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,960
I just want to be like, yeah,
that seems like it makes sense.

569
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:27,440
OK.
Yeah.

570
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,320
Let's talk about that.
OK, and then they can do it, but

571
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:35,760
without safety and particularly
for the traumatized, because we

572
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:41,200
are trained to keep it quiet.
And every abuser tells us, don't

573
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,640
you say anything in in whatever
way they tell us.

574
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,960
And so, you know, breaking
through, that's always a

575
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,320
courageous amazingness to me
with anyone, whoever it is.

576
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,960
And and I, I can't imagine there
is, but let me let me ask it

577
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,000
anyway.
Is there kind of one thing that

578
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,440
helps people breakthrough that
and and learn to be or accept to

579
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:08,440
be vulnerable again?
Yes, it's safety, not the truth.

580
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,560
Once the safety, let's be clear,
the person that we're talking

581
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,800
about has to perceive the
safety.

582
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,920
It can't be the other person
saying oh it's safe, it's safe.

583
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,160
Those of us are traumatized.
Like whatever bro, I'll

584
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,680
determine that you know and it's
not safe as a rule.

585
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,560
So when that person like.
Feels safety.

586
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,640
That's when the wall starts to
come down.

587
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,280
But it's not until they feel
that safety.

588
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,120
So This is why I think a lot of
information based programs are

589
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,040
bad because every time I hear
the information like, Oh yeah, I

590
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,600
should have that and I'm not
doing that enough to mention

591
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:43,600
blah, blah.
That's what my mind does with it

592
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:44,960
because I'm a traumatized
individual.

593
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:46,880
What I need is somebody to be
like, hey, school, let's just

594
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,240
hang out.
Let's be together.

595
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:49,760
What?
That's weird.

596
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,040
What do you mean just be
together?

597
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,080
I mean, you're not what you're
not going to, you know what

598
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:54,760
seem.
And the other thing is, God

599
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,120
forbid the labeling that we do.
One of my old mentors, he taught

600
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:59,920
me something.
I thought it would just profound

601
00:31:59,920 --> 00:32:02,880
to me, but he said as soon as
you label someone, you cease to

602
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,800
love them because now they're
that thing, they're no longer

603
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,880
them.
And in the psychological world,

604
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,200
you can't.
I mean, you got to label

605
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,920
somebody to talk to him.
That's insane.

606
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,920
I don't label people.
I don't do it anymore.

607
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,080
I won't, you know, you're,
you're Andy and you have a

608
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,120
specific story.
And that's what I'm interested

609
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:28,160
in hearing what labels me.
So if I say, oh, that guy's

610
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,480
narcissistic, what does that
mean?

611
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,480
What depends on the person
you're talking to that some that

612
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,240
person's bipolar.
Well, everyone has their own

613
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,720
definition of that stuff.
So sometimes, like if I'm

614
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,680
talking to a colleague, that
person fits the criteria for

615
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,480
narcissism.
OK, that gives me an idea who

616
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,280
what the what the behavior is.
OK, In that sense, it can be

617
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,480
helpful.
But as a label, it's damaging.

618
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,080
Right, 'cause even even a, you
know, textbook narcissist is

619
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:03,560
also other things.
Right, right.

620
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,920
And ultimately they're, they're
still a human being.

621
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,640
So, so the this is hard for a
lot of people, but like, I've

622
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,240
dealt with a lot of narcissists,
but you know, there's still a

623
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,400
human being that has value.
Would I trust them?

624
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,640
Not on your life, But it doesn't
mean I can't value them.

625
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,840
But value them is also being
honest about what they are.

626
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:30,200
Your behavior dot dot dot dot
dot dot dot has revealed this

627
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,320
about you.
So that's what I'm looking at.

628
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,280
I'm not saying, well, you're a
narcissist and putting you in

629
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,400
some basket.
I'm like, well, no, your

630
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,760
behavior has been very clear and
you're not trustworthy.

631
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:41,680
And that's the other thing I
teach people all the time, like

632
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,720
trust is earned.
Not, it's not something

633
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,960
somebody's you owe, but in a lot
in their culture, particularly

634
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,240
in faith communities, trust is
owed.

635
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:58,040
And I'm like, no, somebody has
to earn my trust and then I'll

636
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,760
give it to them.
But I always say it, it's on my

637
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,920
social media all the place that
you're better off being late to

638
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,880
the party you trust than early.
So the damage that's done by

639
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,159
being early is way worse than
the damage that's being done by

640
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,760
you being late to the party.
If the other person's offended

641
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,840
by you not trusting them, that's
a clue.

642
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:20,360
Maybe you need to back away.
Patrick, with all of your

643
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,239
experience and everything you've
already shared, does anything

644
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,000
stand out top of mind as as one
thing you wish more men knew?

645
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,040
That they were valuable, that
they had value.

646
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,159
And look, I talked to a lot of
guys that are, I wouldn't trust

647
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:38,600
me as far as I could throw them.
They're bad.

648
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,360
They're bad people.
I've talked to a lot of bad

649
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,320
people.
Good, you know, women, men.

650
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:45,159
I've talked to a lot of people I
wouldn't trust, but I also value

651
00:34:45,159 --> 00:34:48,360
them as human beings.
If I had some way to magically

652
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:52,000
change it, I would.
But but most men, what I see is

653
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,159
just the struggle of
devaluation.

654
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,480
I don't have the right body.
I'm not making enough money.

655
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,400
I don't.
My wife's this, my kids, that

656
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,680
one.
If you start with I'm valuable,

657
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,960
then everybody around you
benefits, but I can't make

658
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,080
someone believe that that's
something that that has to be

659
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,520
revealed to them.
And so if you think about living

660
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,840
your life from a place of value,
that's a very different thing

661
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,720
than on the treadmill of trying
to get it.

662
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,440
And so that's been, that's been
one of the things that I have

663
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:26,000
realized is like, I don't have
to do anything to have value.

664
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,800
I get to do things, and that's
actually made me more productive

665
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,560
as opposed to earlier in my life
when I was on the treadmill

666
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:39,440
doing all kinds of amazing
things, but miserable and worn

667
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,080
out.
Now I get invigorated by what I

668
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,480
get to do.
Can you elaborate on recognizing

669
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,360
the invisible scars left from
emotional abuse?

670
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:59,200
Yeah, self doubt is one of the
most profound scars.

671
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:07,280
So I see it all the time.
A woman just for example, goes

672
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,400
through all the difficulty to
get out and now they're out

673
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,520
there away from the abuse.
They're on their own.

674
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,320
They have freedom, they have
safety.

675
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,640
And then they're like, I don't
know who I am.

676
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,360
I don't know what to do because
they've been with somebody who's

677
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,120
been telling them all these
years, you're no good, you're

678
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,280
the problem.
What about this?

679
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:26,600
You're too sensitive.
You shouldn't that.

680
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,160
And then they finally get free
and then they're like, I don't

681
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,120
know what to do.
So the most difficult question I

682
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,760
asked a lot of these people when
they're on the other side, it

683
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,200
was one of my most difficult
questions.

684
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,880
What do you want?
I don't know.

685
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,200
I've been finished spending my
whole life trying not to die.

686
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,040
Thinking about what I want
hasn't really been on the

687
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,480
agenda.
And that feels kind of selfish

688
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,560
or it feels too whatever.
But that's one of the things I

689
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,920
would say is like, if you are
valuable, then do what you want.

690
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,040
Because if you're valuable and
you do what you want, the world

691
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,240
will be a better place instead
of the lie that if you do what

692
00:37:01,240 --> 00:37:05,600
you want, everybody hurts.
Now, in some cases that's true.

693
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,040
But most of the people who have
been harmed in an emotionally

694
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:10,240
abusive relationship are not bad
people.

695
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:14,000
All the ones I worked with, It's
amazing how loving, caring,

696
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:18,000
generous, beautiful their souls
are even after being harmed for

697
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,400
so long.
That's more often the case than

698
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,560
not.
I mean, now, you know, I could

699
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,840
I, I hear this all the time from
men particularly.

700
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:28,120
And something we should talk
about maybe.

701
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,360
But they're like, well, you
know, I, I only act that way

702
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,720
because of my way.
My, I was raised and I'm like,

703
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,000
excuse me, I was beaten, I was
abused.

704
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,600
That doesn't give me any reason,
any excuse to do anything.

705
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,880
In fact, that should be motive
for me to never let anyone

706
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,680
experience that.
Why would I want somebody to

707
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:52,200
experience what I experienced?
My kids never knew anything

708
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,600
about what I experienced in
terms of from me.

709
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:59,320
I was never violent.
I was, I wasn't because I was

710
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,840
determined to give them
something way better than I got.

711
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,960
So when I hear people say, well,
you know, it's just a denial,

712
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,280
It's just an excuse.
It's just bull.

713
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,680
You can do something different.
You had just as much

714
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,680
availability to you as I do.
Look, I'd crawled over hot coals

715
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,280
and cut glass to get where I'm
at.

716
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,000
And that's the difference
between people who have health

717
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,880
and people who don't is are they
avoiding the pain?

718
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,240
I got the scars to prove it.
I I know you work with more

719
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:36,000
women because more women come
forward of after being abused or

720
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,000
in an abusive relationship than
men do, right?

721
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:45,000
But are are the results similar
regardless of gender?

722
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:50,840
Yes, but I think sometimes it's
way worse with men when they're

723
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,280
abused because I was abused,
man.

724
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:57,840
So I, I get this, you know,
there's a, there's a, a lot more

725
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:02,280
internal stigma with being
harmed as a man than it is with

726
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,240
a woman 'cause, you know, she's
under the authority or she's or

727
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:08,800
the, you know, whatever the
weird belief is about why she's

728
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,040
not as good as the other person.
But as a man, it's like very

729
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,400
deflating.
Like I'm less of a person 'cause

730
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,440
I allow myself to be abused and
I see that a lot.

731
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,440
It's really men have a harder
time getting back to their to

732
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,520
their, their, their value.
And I think it a lot of times it

733
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,640
also it harms their masculinity.
And when I say masculinity, I

734
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,440
mean like their true natural
power.

735
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,200
Not I don't mean that in a over
the top way.

736
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,320
I mean like who they really are
because they've been undermined,

737
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,840
undermined, undermined, blamed,
undermined, blamed.

738
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,240
And you know, eventually you
just, you don't, you give away

739
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:52,520
all your power.
Is men not talking about it part

740
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:56,720
of why men seem more likely to
recreate the behavior that the

741
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,560
the the abuse behavior as they
grow?

742
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,840
Up I think a lot of guys that
get abused don't recreate the

743
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:02,400
behavior.
They just become a shell of

744
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,640
themselves.
There are men who are abusive,

745
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:08,320
but they're they're doing a
whole different thing.

746
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,520
But guys who are in a
relationship where they're being

747
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,200
abused, they're just becoming
less and less and less of

748
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,520
themselves, just like a woman.
But it's has a different.

749
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:22,320
Impact because they're a man,
but I think that you know, I've

750
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,200
listened I've taken a lot of
harsh emails from men who are

751
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,200
like you do a program for women.
What about us?

752
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,680
I'm like, like, I'm one of you.
But dude, I mean, it's, you

753
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,280
know, 8020, it's, you know, I,
I, I, I can't spend the

754
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,080
resources on everything.
So I, I made the decision to do

755
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,120
it that way.
But it's not because it's not

756
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:43,880
real.
It's not because I can't help.

757
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,680
I mean, I have lots of male
clients who I talked to who are

758
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,920
in this situation.
I'm, I'm, I'm a daggone expert.

759
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,320
I've, I've been there, done that
and I've helped a lot of people.

760
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,120
But it, there is it.
And, you know, this is true with

761
00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,400
males who have sexual trauma.
This is true with emotional

762
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,160
trauma.
It's just true across the board.

763
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:08,800
We tend to say nothing.
And there's a lot of guys that

764
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,560
are suffering because they're
they're afraid to say anything.

765
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:15,480
I'll be judged.
I'll be seen as less of a man,

766
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,520
Whatever, whatever, whatever.
And I'm like, yeah, I get it.

767
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,480
But there's no healing and
avoidance.

768
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,680
No healing and avoidance ever
for anyone.

769
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,760
That's just a rule of the world
if you ask me.

770
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:33,000
So I'm sure your book Death of
1000 Cuts can help men and

771
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,720
women.
Yeah, I in the intro, I talk

772
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,960
about the fact, look, there's
principles here, whether you're

773
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:42,320
straight, gay man, woman, alien,
you know, dog whores, I don't

774
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,280
know.
These principles work

775
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,440
relationally no matter who you
are.

776
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,000
So yeah, guys could definitely
find benefit in it.

777
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:55,160
But it's, you know, it's, it's
written from me to a woman in a

778
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,280
marriage.
That's, that's the motif of it.

779
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,680
Obviously I there's caveats, but
you know, you have to, when

780
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,520
you're writing, you have to, you
have to pick a voice.

781
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:08,200
You know, you can't just, you
know, so, but yeah, it's, that

782
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,840
was one of my concerns 'cause I,
I kept trying to make it more

783
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:12,800
broad.
And the editors like, look, this

784
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,040
is your audience.
People who understand this are

785
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:17,320
going to get the same thing out
of it.

786
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,520
They're just going to switch the
word in their head from wife to

787
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,840
husband or husband to wife or,
you know, partner or boss or

788
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,200
whatever.
The principles the the

789
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,800
principles are real, and they're
going to work.

790
00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:32,760
Your online program Pathway to
Hope that is a a community for

791
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,840
women.
Community for women

792
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,120
specifically, it's women only
and one of the things that I

793
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:43,600
discovered in the process was
you know the information is

794
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,200
great I mean I had YouTube
videos that a lot of people were

795
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,880
looking at and stuff and and I
was like but they don't have any

796
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,640
safety like there's no safe
place for them to talk and

797
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,200
particularly a lot of these
women are in faith communities

798
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:56,400
where every time they talk about
it, they get scriptures, they

799
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,800
get told what to do they get
told to be try harder do more

800
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,040
have more sex, be nicer, cook
more meals and everything we

801
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,280
find, which is absolutely
absolutely a lie.

802
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,000
So I realized what they needed
was a safe community.

803
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:10,800
And so that's why I put together
all the videos.

804
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,560
But there's also a forum
component and it's managed

805
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,400
because safety to me is
paramount.

806
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:22,480
So if you go on and you say
whatever you say, yeah, OK, tell

807
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:23,280
us more.
We're here.

808
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,040
We're not going to give you a
ton of advice and we're not

809
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,920
going to.
If you ask for advice, certainly

810
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,360
we'll give it to you.
But I just did, you know, 40

811
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,960
videos with full of advice.
Just look at those, you know,

812
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,200
so.
But there's also lots of women's

813
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,920
stories.
And I think the most important

814
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:42,800
thing that women get out of that
thing is every month I do a live

815
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,000
Q&A.
And so it's real questions from

816
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,040
real women in the community.
And we're talking about real

817
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,720
specific things.
And I think the more you are

818
00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:56,400
specific about the story in the
context, that's how people heal.

819
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,400
Like, oh, she was talking about
that.

820
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,120
I feel that.
And oh, and he said that and no,

821
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,440
that applies to me.
And oh, OK, instead of here is

822
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,400
the, you know, 4 reasons why I
don't know.

823
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,880
When someone's in their actual
context, it just makes a lot

824
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:11,960
more sense.
This is why people flock to

825
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,080
movies.
It's a story and we relate to

826
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,960
it.
The better stories are more

827
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:19,920
relatable.
So when someone's telling their

828
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,400
story that fits in all kinds of
nuances that you can't describe,

829
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,120
but suddenly you're listening,
you're like, oh, wow, that's me.

830
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:32,200
Oh yeah.
So those Q&A's to me are like

831
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,800
gold for the women.
And it's real life stuff.

832
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,520
And then also the safety of
being able to say whatever you

833
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:44,480
want to say and not get judged
or beat up, which for most of

834
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,520
these women isn't, they don't,
they can't say anything because

835
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:48,000
they're in a relationship.
If you say something, you're

836
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,840
going to get armed.
So that safety to me is so

837
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:53,240
important.
Yeah.

838
00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:58,280
And is, is that safety issue?
Why, you know, one program can't

839
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,840
address both genders?
Correct.

840
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,600
You can't have a, you can't have
a man in a abused woman form.

841
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:08,120
The, the fact that they allow me
to be there is pretty miraculous

842
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,120
because, you know, I'm unique in
that I'm a man who's talking

843
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,640
about emotional abuse from a
man's perspective.

844
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,920
Most of the people that are
doing this are women that are

845
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,280
talking about emotional abuse
and have programs and so on and

846
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,600
so forth.
But I also have the the benefit

847
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:26,520
of having been a pastor and
having been somebody who gave

848
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:29,760
the bad advice, somebody who
would have pushed them back into

849
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,080
a bad situation.
So that's what woke me up, was

850
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,880
watching the failure and the
pain.

851
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,160
I'm like, this stuff's not
working.

852
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,840
We got what?
And so I think that also helps

853
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,920
because I understand the context
of the communities, the faith

854
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,840
communities.
I was, I was a leader in them.

855
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,440
I understand the thought process
and I speak theological,

856
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,760
theological language.
I mean, in the sense that I

857
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:57,440
understand if a Pentecostal
woman comes to me or a, a

858
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,520
Baptist woman comes to me or a
Presbyterian woman comes to me,

859
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:02,120
those are all three different
languages.

860
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,600
They're all Christian, but they
all have their own nuances.

861
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,520
And if you don't understand
that, you could really make some

862
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,040
mistakes.
And I have that benefit having

863
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,440
been, you know, neck deep in it
for a long time.

864
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,600
So, Patrick, what's the best way
for people to find out more

865
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,520
about what you're up to and, and
to to get the book and, and

866
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,800
everything else you're doing?
So Patrick Doyle dot life is my

867
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:31,000
website, Patrick Doyle
Instagram, Patrick Doyle

868
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:38,600
Facebook, Patrick Doyle YouTube,
you know, go to my website and

869
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:42,720
sign up for emails.
That's the most guaranteed way

870
00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:46,160
you'll know what's coming.
And you know, we'll be putting

871
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,280
stuff like the, you know, the
podcast that I'm doing and stuff

872
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,080
on that.
We'll also do social media and

873
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,760
that kind of thing.
But yeah, that's the thing.

874
00:46:55,760 --> 00:47:00,720
And I'm currently working on the
Audible version of the book, so

875
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:02,800
I'm pretty excited about that.
But.

876
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,160
And is the book available just
at your website or at Amazon or

877
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,200
everywhere?
Amazon's probably the best place

878
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,800
to go out isn't available
everywhere, but Amazon's

879
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,120
probably the people I think have
the, that's the quickest

880
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:19,240
shipping.
They they figured that one out.

881
00:47:19,240 --> 00:47:21,360
So yeah, Amazon's a good place
to go to get it.

882
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:26,880
And, you know, I am been so
fortunate.

883
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,120
The feedback that I've gotten
has been so good.

884
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,520
It's so wonderful to hear people
say that they're being helped.

885
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,920
You know, it's what I've been
doing my whole life, but you

886
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:42,360
know, it's not, you don't
normally get that feedback, but

887
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,000
with the book, there's a lot
more feedback.

888
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,720
It's just kind of one of the
ways it works, you know, I mean,

889
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,640
you comment sections on YouTube,
you do get some good feedback,

890
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,840
but you also get, you know, a
comment section, which isn't

891
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,760
wasn't always pleasant.
So I've just been really

892
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,840
fortunate and I'm just really
grateful for it.

893
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:02,520
And I hope, I hope that people
continue to get freedom and, and

894
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,560
clarity and hope and healing.
And I'm just, I'm excited about

895
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,240
it.
Yeah, Amen.

896
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,760
Patrick, thanks so much for
joining us today.

897
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,240
Absolutely.
Thanks so much for for sharing

898
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,080
what you've been through so that
you can help other people get

899
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:18,840
over what they've been through.
You.

900
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,680
Know I find one of the most
healing things is to be of

901
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,880
service to others and I'm sure
you're experiencing that you

902
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:29,520
know, tenfold every day. 100%,
you're 100% right on that and I

903
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,520
appreciate what you're doing.
Like you, you don't have to do

904
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,160
this, you know, you don't have
to take your time and energy to

905
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,480
put this stuff out into the
world, but this is what we need.

906
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,680
We need more conversations.
We need more people talking.

907
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,960
We need, we need this.
And not just the negative side

908
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,560
of the world of the Internet,
but like this kind of stuff

909
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,800
where the more we do this, the
better off it isn't.

910
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,880
The thing I love about the
Internet is it's 24/7, man.

911
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,200
Somebody in the middle of that
deep dark soul night can come

912
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,600
across something like this and
be like, oh, wow, OK.

913
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,000
Yeah.
And I discovered that early when

914
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,440
I had all those YouTube videos.
And I'm like, people would say

915
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:04,920
to me, yeah, I was 2:00 in the
morning.

916
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,000
And I don't know how it
happened, but it came up on my

917
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,120
feed.
And, you know, this, This is why

918
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:09,840
we do this.
It's.

919
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,720
And like I said before, you
don't get the feedback, but you

920
00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:15,120
know what's happening.
That's why I'm so grateful for

921
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,560
the book, because I'm getting
the feedback.

922
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,160
I mean, how many thousands of
hours of videos have I made?

923
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:23,560
And I don't know, you know, but
the book I know.

924
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:25,800
Thanks everyone for joining us
today.

925
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,480
Please visit realmenfield.org.
See the blog post for this

926
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,280
episode, which will have all the
various links and resources that

927
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:32,760
were shared and mentioned by
Patrick.

928
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,560
Wherever you're discovering Real
Men Field, please subscribe,

929
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:39,120
follow, like, share this episode
with someone, post a review or

930
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,280
comment.
You know, if you're not sure

931
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,520
where you're going, it's almost
impossible to get there.

932
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:47,560
If you want 2025 to be your best
year yet, I invite you to book a

933
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,120
free Clarity call with me.
We'll explore what you want,

934
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,800
what's in your way, and what can
be done about it.

935
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:58,200
Visit theandygrant.com/talk to
book yours.

936
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:01,280
And until next time, be good to
yourself.