How Therapy Fails Men | Importance of Safety, Respect, and Love

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer, Andy Grant.

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Please visit theandygrant.com to
learn more about me.

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Real Men Feel exists to remind
men that they are human beings

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and have the right to experience
and express all of their

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emotions.
We have conversations that most

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men are not having, but that all
men can benefit from.

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My guest today is Marc Ajolet.
Art is a psychotherapist and the

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founder of Men's Therapy Online,
a community and healing hub for

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men who want to get back on
their feet or take their lives

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to the next level.
With a background and

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psychoanalysis, neuroscience and
Buddhism, Mark is able to help

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men uncover and destroy the
unconscious barriers that hold

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them back.
His mission is to help men

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become the best versions of
themselves and truly show up for

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their lives, relationships and
community.

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Now, as a therapist, I found it
very brave that Mark wanted to

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come on the show to talk about
how he sees therapy often

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failing men.
He also gives lots of insight

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about initiations and rituals
and working in nature and the

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need for men to challenge
themselves in a supportive

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community.
Let's get to it.

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel Mark.

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Happy to be on the show.
Awesome, good to talk to you.

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What got you interested in being
a therapist?

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Oh yeah.
So Long story short, essentially

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I was a client.
You know, I think a lot of

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therapists benefit from therapy
and then end up going into the

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work themselves.
Kind of go through my whole life

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story.
As a kid, I didn't really fit in

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with guys.
I was an overweight Jewish kid

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in rural Maryland.
So I just got bullied into the

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ground and didn't really like
myself.

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School wasn't really a safe
place.

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My home wasn't really a safe
place for a number of reasons.

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So I just kind of like withdrew,
stayed in my room a lot, played

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video games, just like really
was isolated and shut down.

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People said I was both shy and
wise for my years because I

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think they said I was a good
listener, but really I was just

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like, didn't know what to say,
you know?

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So I end up going to college,
right?

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I hated who I was.
So I decided to create a new

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persona, which is what any kind
of like 17 year old boy thinks

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is cool, which is like drugs,
rock'n'roll, you know, fast

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cars, women, all that.
But I wasn't that kid.

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I was just like a nerd.
I'm like a dork, right?

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I'm a Dungeon Dragons person.
So like, I was in this place

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where I was just saying yes to
everything, and that meant risky

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behaviors, that meant drugs and
alcohol, that meant everything

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that I could, which eventually
culminated an addiction.

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Then I got to there and I don't
remember really why first

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therapist setter did, but I do
remember that he gave a shit and

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he was really interested in me.
I had never experienced that up

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to this point.
And he was like an emotional

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male mentor in a way he didn't
quite have.

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My dad is phenomenal.
He's a really good man, but he's

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not emotionally accessible.
He's like very logistics

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focused.
He shows his love through acts

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of service.
And I need someone I can really

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just like talk to.
So yeah, went through addiction,

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started my practice about 10
years ago working with

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dictionary recovery, worked in
the jail for a while and then

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now I do men's work.
So there's a lot to that story.

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If I wanted to be kind of the
Cliff notes, because I could be

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the whole episode if I.
Cool.

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So one thing that struck me when
we first spoke was that as a

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working therapist, and as some
of you said, your first

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therapist was very good.
You got success.

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You felt heard and supported.
But you said, do you often talk

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about how therapy let's men
down?

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So how does a therapist believe
that therapy is letting men

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down?
There we go.

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There's the topic right there.
Yeah.

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And I'd be curious.
Yeah.

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You're experienced either as a
client or a practitioner.

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But like, I think therapy in
general is it start as a male

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profession, right, as most
things do.

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But now as a female dominant
profession, I think it's changed

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over time.
So what we talk about a lot in

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the therapy world, this idea of
safety.

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And a client needs to feel safe.
And if they feel safe, then

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they'll open up.
Well, The thing is, a lot of men

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actually feel safe.
You know, we're the most

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privileged group in America.
We have safety out the ass, but

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we don't have is respect.
And respect is something that

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has earned right, whereas safety
is something that give it.

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And I think a lot of therapists
fail because they're not, you

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know, engaged in respectful
behaviors.

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And what that looks like for a
man very specifically is a lot

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of therapists, often women
therapists validate all the

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time, right?
We're taught in therapy school

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to do that, to just like
validate all the feelings, say

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everything is OK, let it go,
right?

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Just be like, Oh my God, it's so
hard.

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Your life is so difficult.
And as men, we don't want to

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hear that because it makes us
feel like victims and it makes

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us feel like there's no way out.
It makes us feel like we're

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being smashed by the world.
It makes us feel like we don't

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have any power.
And a lot of guys also lie and

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or obscure the truth, you know,
So I think a lot of men want to

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be called on their bullshit.
When I ask my, the guys that

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come to my practice, what would
make me a good therapist, they

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say, Hey, call me all my
bullshit, you know, tell me when

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you think I'm fucking around.
Tell me when I'm doing the wrong

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thing.
I think masculine love and

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therapy is ultimately selling
love.

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Their masculine love is a much
harsher thing, but it comes from

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wanting the person to be the
best version of themselves, if

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not bullying, right?
But it is saying like, Hey, I

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know you can do better.
I know you can do better than

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what you're doing and I'm going
to help you there.

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So I think a lot of like basic
kind of what I would call

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validation therapy.
Men don't get a lot of value out

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of it because we need more
action.

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We need someone that we feel
like it's a teammate, a coach.

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We don't often need like a wet
nurse, which I think therapy can

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turn into sometimes.
Yeah, no, I agree.

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So I've had men therapies,
therapists and counselors and

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psychiatrists and psychologists
as early as I think 12 years

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old.
And it's funny looking back, I'm

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like, Oh yeah, like the men are
some of the first men that were

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honest and supportive and wow, I
got a lot of growth and help

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from that.
But then it was women.

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That was often.
Yeah, just this valley thing.

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And I feel like, oh, this is
just bullshit and nonsense and

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but it.
But it didn't, you know, I

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didn't.
In hindsight, I can see all that

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and bet the back then
especially, I often didn't want

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help.
I would get help because family

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and friends were concerned
enough but I was like yo fuck

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you you're not getting through
to me kind of attitude a lot.

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But did did you say therapy is
selling love?

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Yeah, so I like, I, I think
therapy what we're selling the

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products you're buying is love,
right?

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You're buying unconditional
love, you're buying support.

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And I do think matching a
feminine love are different and

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I think people need both, right?
And one's not better than

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another, but I think it's
ultimately love.

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And all my clients, I love them
in a way, you know, I, I turn

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people away who I can't love,
who I'm like, wow, I really

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can't find a way to love you.
You know, I don't think that

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would be very helpful to that.
It's good that you can be honest

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enough with yourself and
potential clients and not just,

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you know, chasing, oh, I need a
new client.

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Better say yes to everybody.
That's a that's something I see

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for a lot of coaches.
And you know, one thing, one

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thing that I benefited from
coaching and why I went into

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coaching is that unlike my
experience with therapists,

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therapists didn't would just
listen and nod and validate and

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they wouldn't tell me to do
something like, yeah.

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And again, you said call me on
my bullshit.

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Tell me I'm full of crap.
Like you're just taking

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everything I give you.
And I'm going.

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I drive home laughing.
Yeah, didn't was a great.

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Well, and yet you're back to
that point.

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You lost respect for them,
right?

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Like maybe in the moment it
feels good to like con your

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therapist, right?
Or be like, oh, I really got

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away with that one this time
we're like, whoa, dodge the

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bullet.
But after a while, it's like,

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wait, why didn't they pick up on
that?

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Like, why aren't they pushing
me?

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The respect goes down and then
the effectiveness of the

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relationship just bottoms out,
you know?

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Right.
Yep.

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Right.
So your experience with

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addiction was that, did that
start in high school or in

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college or even later?
This started in college.

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Essentially, it was kind of like
reinventing my persona.

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And because I was a very fragile
dude, like I said yes to

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everything and I pretended like
I already had experience.

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So, you know, if there was
cocaine at a party, I was like,

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Oh yeah, I've done coke tons of
times.

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Rack them up.
You know, I got that kind of

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like masculine hit, toxic
masculine hit of like being the

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guy who was the most fucked up
and could hold his shit

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together, You know, like it was
just like, and it became a

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snowball very quickly.
So if you perceived being a man

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meant saying yes to things like,
how did you learn that's what it

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means to be a man?
I think it was more so like not

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being a coward.
A lot of men and maybe you felt

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this.
I know I felt this growing up.

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A lot of young boys, I guess
should say we have like an anti

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personality.
We don't know what it means to

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be a man, but we know what it
means not to be a right.

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And that's like being a coward.
That's like, you know, let's see

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your T-shirt, the name of the
show.

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Like having feelings, right,
Being emotional.

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You know, I'm being a pussy,
right?

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Like being stupid, being slow,
being fat, right?

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Like all these things.
We know what it means not to be

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a man.
We don't quite know what it

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means to be a man.
I think our culture and that's

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the whole other thing, families
I think don't do a great job

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educating a positive, you know,
sense of identity.

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That's a lot of it's still
negative.

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So yeah, I, I didn't know.
I didn't think being saying yes

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meant I was a man.
But being I didn't want to be a

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coward, you know, So when
everything there was anything

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risky where there was something
that like I could maybe be

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judged for being a coward or for
being afraid, I would just plow

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through that and say yes, right?
Like just sign me up and do it

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again to my detriment.
There were like fears.

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Good.
It's telling me that like

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something's a little bit out of
my league.

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But I tried not to listen to
that at all.

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Yeah, yeah, I find in my life
growing up and it's so many men

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I meet, The most common mask we
as men wear is the got it all

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figured out.
Yep.

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I've experienced everything that
you might suggest to me and

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let's just plow ahead.
Yeah, yeah.

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And that's what man's planning
is, right?

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I mean, that's why women, you
know, again, it's bullshit

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because like, as man's planning,
it's like we pretend like we're

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experts in something that we're
not, right?

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I think people like talking to
experts if we really know what

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we're talking about.
But yeah, I think a lot of men

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come from that insecure place of
like, the worst thing a man can

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say is saying I don't know or I
don't have the answer.

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To this, yeah.
And often that's I I often say

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that the bravest thing a man can
say is is to ask for help.

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But saying I don't know it's
takes as much courage.

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Too.
Absolutely.

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Yeah.
I'm just, you know, I'm a man of

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science, right?
And that's the whole principle

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of science is like being OK not
knowing.

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Things.
Yeah, right.

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Yeah.
The only way we can learn, the

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only way we can grow or expand,
is by admitting we don't know

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something.
Yeah, absolutely.

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Cool, So what do you think it
means to be a man today?

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Yeah, so I mean, let me take a
break because there's a lot

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there.
So I, I, I think the demands on

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men have really changed,
especially in like Western

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culture is we don't have to be
the strong man really any, you

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know, like there's very few
physical threads.

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There's not a ton of like, I
don't know, wars that we're

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going to, right.
I think we're very privileged,

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we're very insulated.
And because of feminism, which

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is a phenomenal movement, I
think women are asking for

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emotionality from their men,
right?

242
00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,720
The standards on the emotional,
even spiritual way is way higher

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than it's ever been.
I think before, you could be

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like strong and rich and tough
and come from like a good family

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and that's all.
But I think now men are being

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called to do a lot more, and
they're being called into roles

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that we typically or
historically have not.

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Things like caregiving roles,
things like the healing

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00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,200
professions, teaching roles,
places where we're actually are

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00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,160
interacting with our community
in a more nurturing way.

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00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:28,880
And back to that kind of idea of
masculine love.

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We're being called to express
our love more than we've ever

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had in the past because the rule
is a lot, a lot less dangerous.

254
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You know, I mean, I know it can
feel like it's kind of fucked

255
00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,840
up, but it's a lot less
dangerous than it ever has been,

256
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,880
especially on kind of the
village level or small level,

257
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right?
Like back in history, being a

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bandit was like a real
professional pursuit that you

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could do.
So, and I'll pause after I kind

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of do this.
You can dive into more detail,

261
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,000
but the kind of the attributes
that I see as in modern

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00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:59,000
masculine is strength, courage,
mastery, and honor.

263
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:00,960
And I'm happy to go into those
in more detail.

264
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But I am curious your thoughts
on that first point of do you

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00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,360
feel like men are being called
to do more today than ever?

266
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Yeah, certainly.
But it's like everybody is as

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kind of boundaries between roles
and are more more fluid and

268
00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,000
women can be anything and men
can be anything.

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00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,960
And with the dissolvement of the
traditional family, often men

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00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:25,520
and women do have to be
everything if they're the one

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00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,600
parent in a family or, you know,
raising children or watching a

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00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,680
company and raising children,
right?

273
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It's.
Yeah.

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00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,000
It's just not as a division of
Labor that used to be between

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parents or traditional male and
female roles really doesn't

276
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exist anymore.
I agree and and it's not taken

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00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,720
for granted right?
Like I think roles in our

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00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,120
relationship are really helpful.
They don't have to be based on

279
00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,040
gender, right?
I think it should be discussed

280
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,960
and be consensual.
But yeah, they don't.

281
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,160
They're not locked into genders
in same way they were

282
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:55,560
historical.
Because I remember when I was a

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kid, like a stay at home dad was
just like, yeah, they weren't

284
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with God.
There was an old movie like

285
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,360
Michael Keaton, Mr. Mom, Like it
was a comedy that a man was at

286
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,600
home taking care of a family or
raising people or doing

287
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,880
housework.
Like that was like hilarious.

288
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,120
And now I don't see that joke as
much anymore, probably at all.

289
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,520
It's just, yeah, it's much more
common, much more accepted.

290
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,400
But but yeah, there's still, I
still see men having as many

291
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:28,000
masks and just almost pretending
to have mastery, not admitting

292
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,000
when they don't know something
or can learn something,

293
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:32,720
pretending to have honor even at
times.

294
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:37,000
How does a man wrecking
recognizing it takes strength

295
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,680
and courage, mastery and honor.
How does a man gain more of any

296
00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:42,200
of those?
Yeah.

297
00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:45,160
Be uncomfortable, right?
It's like, be uncomfortable.

298
00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,720
And I think that's also
something we talk about how

299
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,640
therapy doesn't help men in some
ways, is that men growth through

300
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,360
challenge and women go through
growth through relationship.

301
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,520
You know, and again, I'm using
just, I've always have to make

302
00:13:57,520 --> 00:13:59,920
this kind of like sidebar men
and women loosely.

303
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,760
Gender is fluid, right?
There could be masculine women

304
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,920
and feminine men, but I I think
like masculine, you know, he's

305
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,600
had a normative just for the
conversation.

306
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,640
I think masculine men grow
through challenge and we grow

307
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,120
through putting ourselves in
shitty positions or things that

308
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,080
push our limit, right?
The whole get out of your

309
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,480
comfort zone.
And we need other people, mostly

310
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,840
other men, ideally that we can
come back to as a safe base.

311
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,400
You know, a really common
example that most guys have

312
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,400
experienced is when dating,
you're trying to talk to someone

313
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,720
at a bar, right?
Having a buddy there is so much

314
00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,680
easier, right?
Because you can go out, you can

315
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,840
talk to the girl, you can fail,
you can have a funny story, but

316
00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,640
at least you have your buddy
that you can shoot this shit

317
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:39,760
with.
You're there alone.

318
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,520
One, you're probably not going
to be approaching strangers.

319
00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,080
And two, if once you get the
first rejection, you're out of

320
00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:46,360
there, right?
You're not going to have that

321
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,280
anchor and that support.
And I think that's something

322
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,360
that guys can do for each other
and really try to be those

323
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,720
anchors because we, we are the
rocks, you know, I think we need

324
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,120
to be rocks for each other as
well.

325
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:58,320
Yeah, no, that, that's a great
idea.

326
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,560
That, and the notion that you
need men that you're close

327
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,640
enough and comfortable enough
with that they can push you, but

328
00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,120
they can also welcome you back
home after a push didn't go so

329
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,400
well, perhaps.
Yeah, there's a really great

330
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,400
study in the Book of Boys and
Men, which kind of talks about

331
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,480
they were studying male and
female parents at a playground,

332
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:18,560
right?
That's like a hidden camera,

333
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,640
essentially.
And they found that the female

334
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,720
parent with little kid right, is
like underneath the kid trying

335
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,480
to catch the kid.
If the kid falls right, the kids

336
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,680
up in the jungle gym, the mom is
right there trying to catch them

337
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,880
If if they fall right?
And the dad is up on the jungle

338
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:35,040
gym with the kid, encouraging
the kids to climb higher.

339
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,840
I think that perfectly really
encapsulates the importance of

340
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,400
both roles, right?
You need someone that can catch

341
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,840
you.
We also need someone that can

342
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,560
encourage you to climb higher,
and I think that's what men are

343
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,440
often lacking.
It's like that encouragement to

344
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,640
climb higher and to push beyond
their comfort zone.

345
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,440
Yeah, yeah, a couple years ago
he had the author of that book

346
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:53,120
on.
And of course now I'm blanking

347
00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,360
on her name, but I'll, I'll link
to that in the show notes.

348
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,360
But yeah, that that she has some
great insight and really seeing

349
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,520
how early those roles start
getting made.

350
00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,320
And almost the earlier they're
made, the harder they are to to

351
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,760
challenge her to break too.
So how has your personal

352
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,080
experience with your therapy
journey, with your addiction

353
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:13,840
journey, how has that helped
you?

354
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,960
Or maybe I shouldn't say that.
How has it impacted the way you

355
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,400
work with clients?
Oh yeah.

356
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,760
I'd say it's definitely helped,
you know, and I imagine you're

357
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,120
similar when you do like the
energy work and the coaching and

358
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,040
stuff, and like the same with
altered states that I'm sure

359
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,320
you've experienced and emotional
states that I'm sure you've

360
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,720
experienced.
If we can go there ourselves, we

361
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,760
can be there for another client,
right?

362
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,360
We can be there for our person.
So I ask every single person

363
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,280
who's interested in therapy,
it's like always ask your

364
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:41,280
therapist, are they in therapy?
Have they done it?

365
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,600
What's their journey?
If they say no, get out of that

366
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,120
office because they need to be
able to hold not just how

367
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,640
intense you get, but one or two
steps beyond.

368
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,120
So again, you can be encouraged
to go further and feel deeper

369
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:55,840
into your feelings.
So I think for me, you know,

370
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:57,800
through addiction and, and
through my own, you know, I've

371
00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,880
done tons of men's initiation
ritual, tons of men's work, a

372
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:02,800
lot of psychodrama, all these
kind of buzzwords.

373
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,480
But like, I've been on the floor
screaming and crying.

374
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,319
I've punched things.
I've spent, you know, weeks

375
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,119
fasting in the wilderness.
I've been through like the

376
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,359
depths of addiction and seen
people die.

377
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,040
I've lost friends, I've
committed crimes.

378
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:18,680
I've so I sold drugs for three
years.

379
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,480
Like I know some shit.
And I think that's really

380
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,720
important to find a therapist.
Again, it comes from that

381
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,079
respect place of respecting
somebody who's lived experience

382
00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:31,760
includes some of these more
extreme states because then when

383
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:34,200
you go there or when you have to
go there, that person can hold

384
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:35,640
you and they don't push you
away.

385
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,800
I think a lot of people
experience that with grief is

386
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:40,880
when they lose somebody,
especially if it's someone that,

387
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,800
you know, quote, isn't supposed
to die like their kid or their

388
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,960
wife.
A lot of people push away

389
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,200
because they don't know how to
deal with that loss.

390
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,320
They don't know how to deal with
the grief.

391
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,440
They often don't return phone
calls, they don't return text

392
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,320
messages, but they're not
checking in on you.

393
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:55,800
And a lot of people take that
personally.

394
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,760
But really, it's the other
people that aren't able to deal

395
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,880
with the the heaviness of what
you're doing.

396
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:03,200
Yeah.
So I felt a lot of heavy shit so

397
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,240
I can hold it too.
Yeah, no, I I get that and

398
00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,000
totally agree.
Of all the different rituals and

399
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:14,120
passages and things out in
nature, and is there anyone

400
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:15,800
experience that you'd recommend
the most?

401
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:18,840
Yeah, there's a bunch.
I mentioned the fasting, so I

402
00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:19,880
think I'll talk about the
fasting.

403
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,120
That's really interesting.
So I worked with the

404
00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,080
organization called the School
of Lost Borders.

405
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,160
You can Google em or you can
throw in the show show notes or

406
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,800
whatever, but they do vision
quest and vision fast.

407
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,560
And the idea of it is that you
spend about two weeks out there

408
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:36,600
on the land and then you don't
need for five days and they put

409
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,440
you in a location in nature and
you're just camping with not

410
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:41,120
even a tent.
What?

411
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,360
You have two tarps.
You have one tarp that goes

412
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:45,720
underneath you and one tarp that
you hang from some trees,

413
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,200
depending on how hardcore you
want to be or what type of year

414
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,680
you go.
You don't have a sleeping bag.

415
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:51,520
You don't have you basically
have nothing.

416
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,720
The only thing you have is
water, able to drink water.

417
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,480
You get one gallon per day.
I brought like a notebook, but

418
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,080
aside from that, I had basically
nothing.

419
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,400
So no flashlight, no bug spray,
one change of clothes, you know,

420
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:07,600
like as bare bones as possible.
And for men, I think we need

421
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,760
this, right?
So the idea is that this is like

422
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,680
an initiation or a tool.
And I'm sure you've talked about

423
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,040
it for on your show.
So I'll just say briefly, many

424
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,080
cultures have these kind of
coming of age initiation rituals

425
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,640
where a boy becomes a man.
And really what it is if you

426
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,400
strip away all the spirituality,
all the woo woo, because I know

427
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:25,680
a lot of guys don't believe in
that.

428
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,280
What it is, is proving to
yourself that you're not a pussy

429
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,040
really, right?
Doing something really hard that

430
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,560
you don't think you can do and
then succeeding and being like,

431
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,720
holy shit, that was that.
I'm stronger than I thought I

432
00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,000
was, you know, and for
initiation ritual, it's going to

433
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,440
be different for all guys
because our proclivities are

434
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,320
different.
But it should be scary.

435
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,760
It should be really scary.
If you're not afraid of it, it's

436
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,040
not hard enough.
And if you're too afraid of it,

437
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,280
then you probably shouldn't do
it, but should be like some

438
00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,160
level of fear where you're like,
oh, this is going to be tough.

439
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,600
This is going to be really hard
and you should struggle during

440
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,760
it.
Again, if it's a cakewalk, then

441
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,480
it wasn't hard enough.
And if you fail and it was too

442
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,560
hard, then you got to try again.
But I think this idea of.

443
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,840
Going out there and just
surviving in the most primitive

444
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,160
way possible, having a lot of
time to be with yourself.

445
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,240
And this idea of fasting, which
I'm not sure if you've done any

446
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,120
long term fast, but you get real
weak you you have.

447
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,120
Are you saying yes?
Yeah, five days is the Max.

448
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:23,640
I think I've done 5 days once
and I've done three days a

449
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,240
number of times.
Yeah, it's wild, right?

450
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,440
So like, usually for me, like
around day two, I get real weak.

451
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,440
Like weaker than I've ever felt.
My bones feel heavy, my brain

452
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,520
starts to shut down.
I feel like I'm just like

453
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,040
slogging.
But if I can pass through that,

454
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,040
there's this like immense
clarity that comes up because I

455
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,120
think when the body is is
starving and it's like looking

456
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:49,520
at death, all the bullshit just
burns away.

457
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,360
And all the thoughts that that I
have and I'm sure that you've

458
00:20:52,360 --> 00:20:54,760
had are like very clear.
They're very precise.

459
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,360
You almost can't ignore them
because they're just so strong.

460
00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,280
You know, it could be a
spiritual experience.

461
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,320
It could be almost like talking
to God or an Angel or some kind

462
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,560
of divine thing that just like
spitting truth at you all the

463
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,760
time, you know, and you couple
that with a, with a survival

464
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,480
element and, you know, I came
back there being like, man, this

465
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:16,120
is something that I did that I
survived, that I learned a lot

466
00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,000
from that's going to really
impact me.

467
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,160
And it creates this kind of
milestone in my brain that I can

468
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,920
call back on if I feel weak or
if I feel afraid, which is OK,

469
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:26,720
right?
Like men can feel that, but it

470
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,040
gives me something like, OK, if
I went through that, I can go

471
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,440
through this.
So I think doing some kind of

472
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,960
initiation ritual.
I like the primitive stuff.

473
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,000
So those spirit quest and the
fasting was like really cool for

474
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,080
me.
For other guys, it can be things

475
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,080
like, you know, a sports thing
where like a giant bike ride or

476
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,480
a marathon.
They can be a relational thing,

477
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,400
like trying to talk to a new
person or kind of getting their

478
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,520
comfort zone that way.
A lot of people that are

479
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,040
religious do things like
midnight vigils or they stay up

480
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,440
all night in prayer.
So it doesn't have to, doesn't

481
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,880
have to be anything specific,
but I think men have to do that

482
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,120
every once in awhile just to be
like, yeah, I still got it, you

483
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,200
know?
Yeah, yeah, I agree.

484
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,680
So it was the one thing I've
done in steel staff.

485
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,720
But I do the initiation weekend
with the Mankind Project.

486
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,080
Yeah, the Warrior Weekend.
It's great.

487
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,880
Yeah, I'm done.
Yeah, great.

488
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,560
Yeah.
So I did, you know, we, I

489
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,400
interviewed the head of
marketing on this show years ago

490
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,400
and they talked about it and it
happened to be that it was

491
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,680
coming up in a few weeks,
literally 1/2 hour from my

492
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,760
house.
So like I said during the show,

493
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,280
OK, I'll do that.
And yeah, it was, I went in

494
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,080
cocky because I'd been through
all sort of things already and I

495
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,920
volunteered first the stuff and
I was immediately like bawling

496
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,000
in a mess and like, Oh my God,
having breakthroughs.

497
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,160
And so it was great.
And now I've, I'm actually

498
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,160
staffing again.
Let's see in October, it's in

499
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,040
Massachusetts again.
So I'm, I've, this will be my

500
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,280
third time staffing because.
But at that, that's something I

501
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,840
recommend to everyone because
it's challenging enough, but

502
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,800
it's not such a physical thing
that if anyone, any man, any age

503
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,080
can do it, but it's still a
challenge.

504
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:52,760
Is that was that your
experience?

505
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,280
Yeah, absolutely.
And, and I think it is masculine

506
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,240
love because I won't spoil it
because I think part of it being

507
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,000
a surprise is critical.
But they will push you, right?

508
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:02,360
And they will throw things in
your face.

509
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:06,000
And it's like very confrontive.
But once someone does break and

510
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,200
like you said, they're bawling
on the ground, it's so much

511
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,160
respect like that.
There's no weakness in that,

512
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:11,720
right?
Like you're embraced by the

513
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,680
community of men.
People like, help pick you up.

514
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,960
They want you to get better.
They want you to be stronger.

515
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,760
They want you to do confront
stuff that maybe you've been

516
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,120
avoiding your whole life.
I think that's nice.

517
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,240
Going to love again.
It can look like bullying

518
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,760
sometimes, but it has that like
aftercare and that embrace

519
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,560
afterwards that's so critical of
being like, yeah, you, you had

520
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:32,920
this breakthrough and we're
going to help you deal with it.

521
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,760
We're just going to leave you.
There's plenty of Facebook

522
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,440
reminded me just last week.
It's been 15 years since I first

523
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:43,800
did something that was this
challenge.

524
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,400
And yeah, I don't want to the
the guy I did.

525
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,880
He was the first person, my
first like mentor coach and had

526
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,000
the challenges and had the
fasting and the real physical

527
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,800
challenges and the mental
challenges.

528
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,280
But unfortunately people died
under his watch so.

529
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,880
It took a long.
Time for me to trust and dare

530
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,080
follow anyone else to some sort
of live event.

531
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:08,280
But you know, I'm glad I did.
But yeah, just so you said

532
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,160
earlier, be careful if you're
really scared, it probably isn't

533
00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:12,120
something for you.
You just.

534
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,920
But it should you want to be.
You want to be frightened, not

535
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,760
terrified.
Exactly.

536
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,880
And a lot of places like the
organization, I recommend School

537
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,600
Lost Borders, like they have
people that know of Wilderness

538
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,120
first Aid that work there.
There's assistance like when you

539
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:28,400
go out and you find your spot,
they plot you on GPS, you know,

540
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,280
so if you don't come back or
they don't hear from you, they

541
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,240
can come get you.
So like there is some modern

542
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,040
safety Neps there.
But again, if you don't interact

543
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,280
with them, you are totally
alone.

544
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,400
But yeah, I would recommend to
listeners definitely do your

545
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,040
research and make sure they have
some safety in place just in

546
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:43,720
case.
You never know.

547
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,400
And so you've done a lot of
these sort of primitive ritual

548
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,880
things.
Do do you actually lead any of

549
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,800
those sort of things these days?
I do facilitate, so I do 3

550
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,240
wilderness retreats with my
company, Men's Therapy Online.

551
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,040
This is not online part of it.
We do 2 wilderness retreats and

552
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,200
we do one kind of psychodrama
retreat, which is probably

553
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,200
similar to the Warrior weekend
where we're acting out issues

554
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,840
that guys have internally in a
community of men.

555
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,360
And they are both, you know, we
employ a lot of nature rituals.

556
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:12,040
For instance, the one that's
coming up in September, I'll

557
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:14,480
just go through real quickly is
but Colorado has a lot of

558
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,240
mountains.
I'm based in Colorado and we're

559
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,440
climbing a 13 here, which is a
13113 thousand foot mountain.

560
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,520
So it's hard.
It's it's a hard climb.

561
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,400
You know, there's a lot of
fourteeners in Colorado and

562
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,080
they're famous.
We don't do them because they're

563
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,160
crowded.
So there's a way more

564
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,640
thirteeners that you can have
some privacy, right.

565
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,440
So the idea of this retreat is
called the Burdens We Carry.

566
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,720
So we'll have the guys, they'll
come to the base of the

567
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,480
mountain, we'll establish a base
camp, we'll do men's group,

568
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,040
we'll talk, we'll connect.
And then I have them build

569
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,320
something from natural materials
that represents a burden in

570
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,120
their life when it should be
uncomfortable.

571
00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:48,640
So usually it's something that's
like really heavy.

572
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,960
Maybe it's a big rock, maybe
it's like a spiky stick, maybe

573
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,520
someone's wrapped in thorn,
something that's like sucks,

574
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,240
right?
It's a burden and they have to

575
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,680
carry it up the mountain, right?
That disturbs themselves.

576
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,440
So the more uncomfortable, the
better.

577
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,960
And they're had this experience
doing what is already a

578
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,800
difficult hike, but now they
have this thing that they're

579
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,320
carrying that is maybe hurting
them in some way, right?

580
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,320
Nothing too dangerous, but it's
chafing them.

581
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,000
It's heavy.
It's it sucks.

582
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,480
We get to the top and we do a
ritual where we basically do

583
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:17,880
again, a men's circle.
We talk about it and one at a

584
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,000
time, the guys throw the thing
off the mountain, right?

585
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,840
They throw it all the way down.
And that's, you know, why making

586
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,600
natural materials can just go
back to the earth.

587
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,520
But we throw it off.
And there's this like wonderful

588
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,720
experience where some guys that
do that, the minute they toss

589
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,280
that thing, they are just
crying, right?

590
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,920
They're just like getting this
experience of shedding this

591
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,240
thing that has been like such a
thorn in their side.

592
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,000
And then they walk down and
going down is easier than coming

593
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,000
up.
So, you know, it feels better.

594
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,800
You're not carrying the big
spiky rock and you come back

595
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,160
down.
And what's critical about our

596
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,360
retreats that I wish Moore did
is that we do a lot of

597
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:54,360
integration.
So we have a circle.

598
00:26:54,360 --> 00:26:57,080
Then we do a touchdown meeting
the week before or, sorry, the

599
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,440
week after.
And then we do a check in two

600
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,520
weeks later.
Because, you know, say that

601
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,640
burden was a shitty job, right?
Just because you throw the thing

602
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,120
off the mountain doesn't mean
your job changed, right?

603
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:10,840
You didn't quit your job.
You didn't make any changes.

604
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,400
You just like did a cool weekend
and I found a lot of guys don't

605
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,640
turn it into action.
So we do this kind of long tail

606
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,160
afterwards because even though
you have that major cathartic

607
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,200
experience, then you kind of
again have that masculine love,

608
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,120
the accountability of like, OK,
man, like you just talked for

609
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,640
three days about how much you
hate your job hiked up this

610
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:33,480
mountain.
You threw the stone off the top.

611
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,760
Like when you going to quit, you
know, get down to brass tacks,

612
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,320
When are you going to actually
make that change?

613
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,400
And I think a community of men
can really make these retreats

614
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,560
meaningful instead of just being
navel gazing.

615
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,000
Because I think it's the
combination of insight and

616
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,360
action that creates change.
And back to the original topic,

617
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:51,920
a lot of therapy is just
insight.

618
00:27:52,360 --> 00:27:55,000
There's no action, right?
So you guys get stuck?

619
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,040
Yeah, cool.
It reminds me of the notion of

620
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,520
carrying this burden and having
a a metaphor physical thing.

621
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,480
I was, I think, 19 years old and
I had made another attempt on my

622
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,000
life and I was in a mental
hospital and a psychiatrist

623
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,400
could tell I I wasn't sharing.
I wasn't opening up at all.

624
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,080
He made me drag a suitcase
around for the whole day and I'm

625
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:15,960
like, fine, I'll do that.
Like I know what you're the

626
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,400
point is, but everyone can ask
me why do you go to suitcase?

627
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:19,720
Hey, man.
So I was like, I was getting

628
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,960
attention.
I was like, oh, my, my baggage

629
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,960
is making me famous today.
Like the so he saw that I was

630
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,360
like, and he's like, Yep, he's
all right.

631
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,760
Next time I do this for someone,
we're going to put a full of,

632
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,280
fill it full of rocks and make
it.

633
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,600
Much more uncomfortable.
It was easy and it and I was

634
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,520
getting something from it.
So yeah, lesson not learned my

635
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:37,360
friend, right?
Exactly.

636
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,000
Yeah.
Not challenging enough, right?

637
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:40,480
close, but not challenging
enough.

638
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,080
Yeah, Yeah.
So tell me about men's therapy

639
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,400
online then.
What is the non woodsy portion?

640
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Yeah, so.
We are or therapist by men for

641
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,360
men, right?
So all of our practitioners are

642
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:52,880
male.
We're all licensed clinicians.

643
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,120
I only hire industry veterans.
I don't hire new graduates.

644
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,000
A lot of group practices do
that, but we're designed to be

645
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,320
kind of a boutique community
based service.

646
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,120
So for those that are therapied,
I know the lingo, we're

647
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,040
somewhere between a private
practice and an intensive

648
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,200
outpatient program, which is an
IOP, an IOP program.

649
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,080
You kind of do therapy three
days a week.

650
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,840
You have all these like cool
activities, but you have to do

651
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,640
all of it right at at MTO, it's
all a la carte.

652
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,520
So people can turn up and turn
down whatever kind of

653
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,880
interaction they want.
So we offer group basically

654
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,240
everyday.
We have multiple groups.

655
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,800
Some people aren't once and for
a few of them we have individual

656
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:29,400
that meets every other week or
weekly.

657
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,080
We have those retreats and then
we have some fun stuff like we

658
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,240
do free community events where
people meet up when we go on a

659
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,160
hike in Colorado, you know, a
book club.

660
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,480
We have some online courses.
We have one on perfectionism

661
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,800
that I just launched.
So we have a bunch of like kind

662
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,080
of perks that people can dial up
and dial down.

663
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,880
But the idea is really it's a
right, like therapy is the

664
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,800
vehicle.
And I think a lot of guys,

665
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,680
especially post COVID, are now
valuing therapy and coaching

666
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,880
work and self development work
or whatever you want to call it.

667
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:58,000
But really I'm trying to get
guys to talk to each other

668
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,840
because I do think we are still
very isolated.

669
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,200
And a lot of male friends are,
which again, I have tons of

670
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,040
these and they're great.
Like hobby friends, right?

671
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,560
Like gym buddies or friends that
you play basketball with or

672
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,200
whatever.
But this is designed to be your

673
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,560
emotional gym.
Whereas these are the guys who I

674
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,840
talk about my feelings with.
And over time, it becomes a

675
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,920
chosen family.
It really becomes like a band of

676
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,880
brothers.
And what's different from my

677
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,160
practice in some ways is that I
encourage my people to be

678
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,240
friends.
So there's a Slack channel that

679
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,040
everyone can talk to and they
can all message each other

680
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,360
through all the time.
All right.

681
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,160
I've had people hang out without
me there and go on hikes.

682
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,440
I've had two guys that became
best friends and they were at

683
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,080
each other's wedding.
Like, my goal for that thing is

684
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,320
that they're at each other's
funeral, right?

685
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,280
That these have become lifelong
connections that, yeah, maybe

686
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,160
start at at MTO, but ultimately
become real meaningful or let's

687
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,040
just.
That's because I think that's

688
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:49,880
what the world needs.
We just keep talking to each

689
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,440
other and we need to be
supportive and, and love each

690
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,000
other.
I There's so much isolation,

691
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,320
right?
Now and that you host a podcast

692
00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,800
too, right?
I do, yeah.

693
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,200
That's called the Men's Therapy
Podcast.

694
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,680
Yeah, pretty much fine.
It's very similar to this show.

695
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:06,720
And I'll, I'll have you on to
the guest for sure.

696
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,120
But it it's very similar, right.
We just talked about men's

697
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,080
mental health and, you know,
most podcast listeners are male.

698
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,680
So we again, kind of getting off
that ivory tower that a lot of

699
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,120
therapists are on.
It's like we're going to go

700
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,400
where the people are.
We're not going to expect you

701
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,880
always to come to us.
So of all the different

702
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:28,480
experiences you've had and
insights and actions, does

703
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,960
anything stand out as something
you wish more men knew?

704
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,720
I think, well, I'm looking at
sure, real men feel so I think

705
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,200
that's one thing, right, Is that
like strength is not just

706
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,520
physical strength is emotional.
And back to the point I made

707
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,360
earlier, I, I think a lot of
men, and I'm going to say

708
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,640
specifically fathers in some
way, like push away emotionality

709
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,080
from their children.
I think that creates a huge

710
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,840
problem.
So I think like, it is strong to

711
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,480
be able to lean in when your kid
is upset versus shutting it

712
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,800
down.
It's strong to talk to your

713
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,000
daughter about her getting
bullied in school instead of

714
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,120
trying to tell her to suck it
up.

715
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,600
It's strong to talk to your son
about how he's afraid of going

716
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,080
on this field trip instead of
like just pushing him past his

717
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,400
capacity.
You know, like, emotions are

718
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,400
strength.
And I think once you're on the

719
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,600
other side, which I'm sure you
are and yeah, I know you are

720
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,880
like that toxic man, that bully,
you see how weak he actually is.

721
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,200
Well, now it's something that I
was truly afraid of most of my

722
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,840
life was the bully and and the
kind of like macho jerk.

723
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,840
But once I'm on this side, it's
like, oh, they're just like

724
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,560
empty, you know, there's a
feeling of sadness, there's a

725
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,440
feeling of lack there versus
being like real strength is like

726
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,280
masculine using its emotions to
inspire, protect and care for

727
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,360
others.
So, yeah, don't be afraid of

728
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,320
them.
That could be the biggest source

729
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,040
of strength.
And it's just life at the end

730
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,760
that like that's how you feel
alive is by feeling things.

731
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,360
I think so many dudes, Ross, are
so dead because we're just

732
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,840
pushing everything away and our
aperture is so tiny that like,

733
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,400
we don't get touched by the
world, we don't feel anything.

734
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,680
And that that sucks.
That's just like being a robot.

735
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,920
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, I, I hear from so many guys

736
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,760
and I'm glad to hear more and
more guys are kind of waking up

737
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,640
and acknowledging they feel
empty and lifeless, but they

738
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,520
control so much of that.
And by, yeah, being allowed to,

739
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,400
you know, deciding I'm going to
feel more than hungry and angry.

740
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,600
And then then I'll feel more
life.

741
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:23,760
Yeah.
And actually be alive.

742
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,360
And, and see what how cool Earth
is, you know, because there's a

743
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,080
lot of stuff out there, like
there's a lot of stuff going on

744
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,560
in our planet that you can check
out.

745
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,920
But I think a lot of guys again,
live in their comfort zone,

746
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,160
whether it's that back to that
macho jerk thing where I think

747
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,120
they're just like very
controlled.

748
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,800
They only do things that they're
confident in.

749
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,360
So I didn't see more in my
generation than a pat that I

750
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,960
easily could have walked down,
which is kind of like depressed,

751
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,080
isolated video games.
Just like living online, you

752
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,440
know, I think we're missing life
in so many ways and something.

753
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,440
Can be your comfort zone and it
doesn't feel very comfortable.

754
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,200
Like it can be horrible, but
it's your comfort zone.

755
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:58,920
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, like, I mean.

756
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,280
I, it's like you, I also
struggle with depression and

757
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,480
it's like horrible and I hate
it.

758
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,680
And it's very comfortable, you
know, like I can be in that

759
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,239
state.
And it's usually because I'm,

760
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:10,280
it's not because I'm sad, it's
because I'm afraid and

761
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,719
overwhelmed and I don't have the
resources to push myself out of

762
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,960
it.
But I I empathize like it feels

763
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,960
really bad and yet I can like
settle there.

764
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,920
So, so, Mark, what's the best
way for people to learn more

765
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,159
about all the things that you're
up to?

766
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:27,639
Yeah, Best thing to do just.
Check out the website, it's

767
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,880
menstherapy dot online and
that's everything is there.

768
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:31,960
So that's like the business
page.

769
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,120
You can sign up for our groups
and retreats or whatever, but

770
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:35,639
there's also a ton of free
content.

771
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,440
There's a book list if you just
want to get started and you want

772
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,560
to start reading asynchronously.
There's the podcast.

773
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,320
I have a YouTube channel.
Like everything is there.

774
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:47,040
So like I think for a lot of
guys, especially young men, I

775
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,080
don't know anybody.
Like I had a lot of digital

776
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,800
mentors and virtual mentors.
When I didn't, when I couldn't

777
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,840
find other good men in my life,
I watched a lot of Youtubers,

778
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,160
read a lot of books, read a lot
of biographies.

779
00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,640
There's a lot of historical
texts.

780
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,560
I think like men need the wisdom
of other men.

781
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,040
So whether or not you pay for
pay me or not, right, like

782
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,040
there's this, there's a lot of
value in consuming the

783
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,960
asynchronous content and finding
your digital mentors.

784
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,600
So we hope to connect you with
some of that too.

785
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:15,880
Awesome.
Awesome.

786
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,440
Well, Mark, it's.
Again to the second time we've

787
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,240
ever talked and I enjoyed both
times immensely.

788
00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:24,200
So yeah, let's definitely, yeah,
let's talk again.

789
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,240
Keep this going and wherever
you're catching Real Men feels,

790
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,800
please visit realmanfield.org.
See the blog post for this.

791
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,560
We'll have links to all the
books and resources mentioned

792
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,040
and ways to connect with Mark.
Wherever you're discovering Real

793
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,600
Manfield, please subscribe,
follow, like, share this with

794
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,760
someone that would get as much
value as you did or even more.

795
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,880
Post a review, a comment.
You can reach out to me at

796
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,720
realmanfield@gmail.com.
Always glad to hear from you and

797
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:50,960
until next time, be good to
yourself.