Life Mastery: Unpacking Identity and Embracing Authenticity

0:00 Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel. I'm your host, author, coach and healer, Andy Grant. You can visit theandygrant.com to learn more about me. Real Men Feel reminds men that they are human beings and have the right to experience and express all of their emotions. We have conversations that most men are not having, but that all men can benefit from. My guest today is Mark Collins. Mark is a husband, father, pastor, and business and life coach with a passion to see men equipped to be the hero God created them to be. Is also the author of Life Mastery, Living Life by design, not by default. We discussed the importance of purpose, what's in the way of men knowing their purpose and experiencing our inherent value and worth. Mark displays tremendous authenticity and vulnerability in sharing a very dark time in his life with us. Mark also expands on the dangers of believing in false identities, the concept of more, and shares two things he wishes men knew.

0:55 Let's do it. Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel Mark. Thanks so much, Andy. It's exciting to be here. You are a pastor and a coach, and I wanted to ask like, which came first and are they really very different? Well, you're, you're already unpacking something pretty deep. So yeah, it kind of depends on what you think. So the interesting thing is the work that I do with people is really helping to understand what are the titles of the book I have life master living Life by design is your characters are calling and what I tell them is you're the you're the answer to what you're walking into. It's the secret sauce of all the things that you're doing. And in unpacking it in my own life, that coaching part really came from me living out kind of my desire to see better for people to see them to be able to overcome challenges, issues and struggles in their life. And so, you know, linking back in my life, even in my teenage years, going through high school, college with friends that I have, I'd always have friends who had, you know, shared their life with me and the challenges and struggles that they worked on and being able to really try and advise them from, you know, whatever experience I had had. So that's a very long story to say that coaching probably came first just from the standpoint of trying to help people make their lives better.

2:04 And and then it obviously became more official. And to be totally honest, you could put pastoralship in that bucket as well. And really pestering is really helping people better their lives. Obviously, it's relationship of God and we could, you know, talk about all those details, but you really summarize it. It's trying to make your life better so that you can really have the impact you're supposed to. In our first conversation, you said something that kind of stuck with me that that that God created every man on purpose and for a purpose. Yeah. So do do most men have the same purpose, or is this something that's very unique to each person? No, I I believe it's unique to each person. You know, you can get into the scriptural side of it and how God makes everybody uniquely and specifically for the things that they're called for. You could look at a physiologically right and know that every, every man has a different eye. The iris of your eye is completely different. The shape of your ear is completely different. The pattern of your tongue is completely different. We understand fingerprints are completely different. So much so, I don't mean to be a nerd about it, but here's the fascinating thing as I was studying it, even what we call identical twins, all those things I just, I just talked about, every single one of those are unique, even unidentical twins, which is super fascinating, right? Because an identical twin, as I know from having children, maybe you do, as well as a single egg splitting and making two different children.

3:22 So from a single source, each of those attributes are still unique. I mean, so yeah, we are absolutely unique. And every person, every man has a purpose in his life that's unique to him. There may be similarities. There's other pastors like me, other coaches like me, other people who are doing the work that you're doing. But what is the thing that makes you you? Because that's what makes whatever your endeavor is your business, your calling, your, your vocation, your job. That's what makes it different is the uniqueness of you within that specific world that may be similar to somebody else's. So is that uniqueness your character? How You said your character is your calling. Yeah, absolutely. The the the, the chapter in my book, I outline, of course, the title gives everything away. So if you read that and believe that you've already understood the lesson.

4:04 But it really is this. It's not your title, your role, the things that you walk into, right? It's a unique attributes of you, right? It's your character, it's your value, it's your worth. It's your passion, right? It's your vision. It's those things that make you, you know, that unique man. It's the thing that you are driven by. It's the things that you ignore, right? It's all of those attributes that make you, you and so that's what your character is. And and really it's a counter intuitive thing because a lot of times as may we think that, well, I am my role, right? So if I had this title or I have this job or business or I had this level of income, now you know, that is who I am. And so for us, a lot of it and a lot of the understanding is unpacking you from your outcomes. Our outcomes are still can be amazing. Sometimes they're a substitute for identity. It's me living those things out to prove who I am versus living those out because of who I am.

4:54 What's what's most commonly in the way for a man knowing his purpose? Boy, another great question. There's two, right? The first is believing that I'm, I don't have value until I have purpose, meaning I don't have value until I have a job title role, right? When I become a business owner, then I'll be somebody that's worthy, right? When I become that CEO or whatever The thing is that the man is using in his life, right? It's that's the first thing. The second thing that we also unpack and help people to really have strategies and tools around is many times we believe that we're limited by our past. So, so I can only dream so much. I can only reach so high, right?

5:35 I can only have so much of an impact because, you know, we don't understand it consciously. But many times what I tell people is you're living from either who you're created to be or what your life is told you. And every man has had a life that just told him something, right? Experiences at your past. That's the things you walk through. It's the hurt you've had. It's the things that people have said about you that you consciously said. I don't believe that and you reject it, but subconsciously you kind of do. So when somebody calls you a failure and you start to try and live it out, when somebody says that you can't do that thing, right? That's that's for other people, that business isn't for you, that, that, you know, that military career, that college degree, whatever The thing is, right? There's people that want to give us our destiny instead of help us to unleash it.

6:16 And so for many men, myself included, it was really unpacking and understanding that maybe my life, while it's an experience I've walked through, all of them were some good, some great, some amazing, some horrible. None of them should tell me who I am. And in that place, when we start to unpack that, you can start to really start to increase your vision of, OK, so if I'm not the sum total of my experiences in my past or what people have said about me, then who I am I and how can I unpack what I say is unlock and unleash that hero on the inside? What prompted you to begin unpacking your own character value and worth? Great question. And, and I don't really know where it came from to be totally truthful, Andy, but even as a, a young teenager going to my, you know, high school years into, you know, college, as I was doing college, when I came out of high school, there was a sense that there was a person on the inside, a person that was created to be that I wanted to see on the outside.

7:12 I was more than the experiences I was walking through and the decisions I was making. I just didn't know how to get that guy to come out right. Instead of fear of failure stopping me from really reaching big things, instead of, you know, stopping myself from doing stuff because, you know, what if it fails? What if I can't do it? And all those things you tell yourself instead of having those be the outcomes to really have me walk in confidence and assurance and keep not just capabilities, but really a passion for really living the life that you're created for. And so for me, it really came from that journey. But it was really, you know, as a spiritual person, you could say it was a spirit on the inside, but there was this, there was this knowing on the inside that there was more. And then it was for me trying to figure out how to get there through, through success in life, right through business or academics or athletics. It was trying to use personal development which brought change and you know, incremental increase. It just didn't bring transformation. So for me, the journey started with just this knowing of Gaza. It's got to be more than this, whatever that is. And even in when I was successful, there was still that sense of there's got to be more than this. Because sometimes, as you already know, Andy, with some of the people you work with, that person you are at the bottom of the hill is the same person you are at the mountaintop. So you think that successful overcome fear, failure, procrastination, impostor syndrome, all those things that are holding you back, come to find out they just actually come along for the ride.

8:32 And so in that place, it's really starting to unpack how do I get that man to show up that that hero on the inside that I want to see on the outside. And that brought me on a journey of all the things we talked about. Have there been times in your life that you questioned your own worth and value? Oh yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now I was going to say every time that there was a struggle, every time that there was what you consider a failure, right, Those negative downturns. My wife and I had a business that we started and it was very successful. We sold it for a quality profit. It was the the 5th business that we started. You know, overnight successes are really more hyped than reality. And so, you know, in most cases people were successful already understand that, you know, you're not going to hit, you're not going to bat 1000 every time that you try and do something. And so for us it was the 5th, but even in that one, right. So you know, the things that you're doing, and some guys may be relate to this as well.

9:24 Sometimes your expenses outlast your income and in that place you're trying to kind of figure it out, trying to make it happen. And, and in those places, a lot of times, again, a lot of things that men struggle with, and I was in that place as well, the outcomes are really not an experience that I'm walking through, but it's an identity statement that I take on as my own. So when those things aren't working out and there's a, you know, financial downturn, we don't get the clients that we need. And so you're trying to figure out how to make payroll, how to create income for your own expenses, how to pay, you know, all the things that you're needing to in that place. You can feel like a failure in those places where it doesn't work out, You can start to have a sense of, gosh, am I created for this thing? Am I really meant to be doing this?

10:04 That I, you know, in my case, did I hear God wrong or or did I did I really think that I could do this? And can I make it happen? You know, in those times of struggle and challenges where those that thought life happens. You know, I think it was Doctor Joyce Meyers who had a book that was titled I believe the battlefield of the mind. And it really is that case of you know, who you think you are, you'll become and your thought life is mostly what you wrestle with. It's not your actions and you know, education and all the things you're trying to learn, your skill set, it's really battling your mind and the belief systems that you've again, the light that you've lived telling you who you are and overcoming that. So for me, it's certainly those were some of the things I did as well. Was there any one thing that really clicked it in for you finally that you were inherently worthy? Yeah, you know, it was more of a journey than a moment, Andy, but there was also there was, you know, several moments along the way where you started to see it, right. And and and for me, it wasn't there was the belief system that there's I am worth more than than where I'm at. And in that place, when you start to see that guy show up, when you start to believe that you're more than your outcomes. So when things aren't going well, it's not automatically this feeling of regret or worry or shame that I blew what I messed up.

11:23 And when things are successful, it's really seeing that it's it's me really living out that that calling that passion that that impact that I'm supposed to have. It's really seeing that guy show up that really resonated and really cemented that belief system for yourself. So far you've mentioned fear of failure and imposter syndrome. Were were those things that you personally faced or what you see in your clients? Both, yeah, both and and the honest truth is the interesting thing, Andy, is you could put anger, you could put needing to control, you can put insecurity, you can put anxiety. Really all of these things, the emotions or whatever the titles are you give them are really at their very core identity statements that you're living.

12:06 But but yeah, imposter syndrome for sure. Not believing that I was, you know, again, in that business when expenses are outpacing income, you start to feel like maybe I'm not qualified for this. Maybe I'm supposed to settle for, you know, doing what I was doing before, not really reach too high or try these things that may be too far out of what I know how to do, right? It's so imposter syndrome for sure, and fear of failure, right? Again, because if you don't know who you are, your world has to make up the difference in the unfortunate challenge in that is that when my world and and my outcomes don't work out the way I want, when it's a failure and I do that in air quotes, then it's not the experience that's failed, it's me. Again, when you don't know who you are, my world has to tell me and it better work out perfectly or it's going to be something that I have to struggle with.

12:54 Right. Yeah. And, and I exactly have been in that place where if my worst critic lives inside my head, then what? The world mirrors back to me. I always take the most negative possible take on it. And I said if fear of failure and plus syndrome at all means, oh, I better not do what I'm thought I was going to do, oh, that that calling was wrong and I better just just give up. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Either you don't start or you give up early when it was something to persevere through, not something that showed you you needed to quit. That's excellent. I appreciate that. Yeah, I definitely. Perseverance was an issue for me. I would have like grand I Yeah, that's the thing. This is. And I thought every new idea was like the home run. And then finally I really got a message.

13:34 Like, you know, Andy, life's meant to be like a series of singles, double s and triples. And I kept looking for the one thing that would just fix everything. And, and I think a lot of people are always possibly looking for that thing too. But if someone finds themself in a new business, an existing career, hitting that wall for having that that internal struggle, the imposter syndrome, the fears, the anger, what what's a first step they can take to what? Once they have the awareness of something's wrong, What's what's a first step they might take? Yeah, which is a great question because there's two steps that people would take. One is the one most people take and one is the one that's going to help them. One is the one most people take is I create, you know, and, and, and again, I've, I, I created like master the course I have and wrote the book life master living life by design.

14:21 Because I didn't find a transformational course out of there, but I took a lot of courses before that, courses, books, teachers, gurus, whatever, right? And a lot of times what they talk about is how to manage the emotion. So I, I feel, you know, I feel the sense of dread, the sense of worry, right. So what you need to do is create a positive affirmation. And every time you feel that you're going to use your positive affirmation and it's supposed to help you get better. Many times it doesn't. For me, it never did. Because in most of those cases, when I'm telling myself I am a man of strength, I am a man of strength. I am a man of strength, but my thoughts are telling me I'm going to blow it. It's going to be horrible. This is going to be a failure. That side actually wins because generic mantras or affirmations typically don't work. And even if they did, what you're really doing is you're finding the fruit, not the root. What I mean is when you're attacking the emotion, fear of failure comes up.

15:10 And I have this, you know, I am a man of success. I am a man of success. I use my affirmation. Great. And you finally bludgeon it into silence for a while. And then you go for that next challenge or the next one after that. And you know, like yourself, you illustrated so well, Andy, success is a series of singles when in each one of them, many times there's challenge that comes and needs to be overcome. Any of those places, you always have that fear pop up. Well, now all of a sudden you just have to fight it the next time and the next time after that. What I see is most courses and teachings really give you the ability to change, but it really is habit formation. And the problem with habit formation is the habit I used to get there, I have to use to stay there. And so fear of failure never leaves. I just silence it for a little bit of time.

15:52 And so that's where most people go. The other side that I talked about is how we start. It's not a foundation of managing your emotions, but unpacking your identity. Who are you created to be? Right, Because who you're created to be as the person that'll show up. It's either who you believe you are or what your life has told you you were. So with us, it's really unpacking tools of identity as a foundation. Because I can be nothing else but who I am. I'm undeniably me, which means that when you show up as who you're created to be, my experiences don't get to tell me who I am. Failure, successes, other people's opinions, things that have been said to me to hurt me, none of them can have an impact unless I believed in myself. And so in that place, when I start to unpack identity, well, I can't fail at being me.

16:37 I can have an experience that doesn't work out and use it as a lesson to grow from, but it's never an identity statement because I know who I am. I'm not a person who fails. I'm a person who succeeds on a consistent basis. We give you tools to start to unpack that in your own life. So it's not attacking the emotion, again, attacking the fruit, because if it's not insecurity, if it's not fear, if it's not control, if it's not anger, and on the other side, those things that we use, if it's not, I need money and I'm striving for things or those addictions that you use to medicate against the life you don't want. If you're not dealing with identity, you'll always deal with fruit. And that sounds more like exhaustion than freedom. I I love what you said. I can't fail at being me. That's it.

17:19 That I feel like that sums it up like in a nutshell, like once you and well, I should take that back because it again, it depends on your identity. If I think I am this pathetic loser and I'm saying I can't fail at being a pathetic loser, then that's going to continue a a rather miserable experience. But the. But the outcome's the same. You're you're right in both circumstances. What I tell people is who you believe you are, you'll become. So it either aligns with who you're created to be or what your life is told you your identity is unpacking or you're created to be so your life doesn't get to lie to you anymore. Yeah, so I'm an initiate in the modern mystery school and the the point of the school is to know thyself from the Oracle of No 5. That's and and this has shown up in, I feel like it's the the last three episodes, the importance of knowing yourself, knowing who you are. And you know, I find that we've already talked about so many men think that their value comes from how much they provide, how much they earn, how much they've traded, how much all the toys they have to show off.

18:16 And it's deeper in that. So can can you put better words to like what what's inside of us? Like what what what? What does knowing my true identity really mean? Well, I mean, there's a couple of things. It's me not allowing my life to lie to me. And it doesn't mean you don't accomplish things. The people I work with, there's many men I'm working with who were successful in business, but now are more so because even people had successful businesses. They find a couple of things. They find that their fear didn't leave just because they received a great income or created a business, established product, whatever The thing is that they're doing. And in that place, for them, success was always a relief, not a joy because I didn't fail this time.

18:57 But it's that hamster wheel of success. But I always have to continually reprove myself. So in that place, they live that out. But it's really understanding this. It's so there's the outcome side of it, right? Your outcomes can be amazing. The difference is that my outcomes are a joy and a fulfillment for me. They're not a necessity. So I can feel valued and worthy, But then there's the other side of it of understanding. There's this word I use a lot. It's called impact. And what I tell the guys I work with is there's an impact in the world that has your name on it. So there's great, you know, this great mission, this great calling, these things that guys feel on the inside that man, there's got to be more than average. There's got to be more than just getting through. There's got to be more than just day-to-day. You're right, you're absolutely right. And, and, but like you'd said, that initial question you had was really profound.

19:44 Is, is, is, you know, is this character is the values that is the mission for every man the same. There are generic ones. I need to, you know, I'm called to be a good father, good husband, good man, right? A provider, a, a person of courage and strength, right? Those are all generic attributes of a man. But then there's this impact. There's a you thing that lives when you're gone, that thing that lives outlives you. The difference in the world that's made because you existed. Whatever that thing is, right, it doesn't it's not entrepreneurship for everybody. It's not invention for everybody. It's not being an artist or an actor or an athlete for everybody. But there's this character of you that matters and mattered in the world when you're gone. It's it's that part of you and and how it plays out is those things we talked about.

20:30 It's different for every man. It could be a man who invests himself as a teacher so that hundreds of children's lives are changed because somebody spoke truth and and spoke destiny into them as they were growing up and it changed the trajectory of their lives. It could be that man that was ACEO that provided not just a product but a livelihood and a lifestyle for hundreds of people who worked underneath them. It could be that husband who raised up that next Elon Musk or whoever it is the person, that marquee individual had a childhood and many times the unspoken heroes in that person's life was the father who raised them up with the integrity for them to be able to carry the weight of what they were going to in the world. I don't know what it is for every man. I'm not a prophet, so I can't tell them. But what I do know is there's a word and there's a phrase in the Bible that says God's no respecter of persons, which means he doesn't look at any of his children differently. And it also means he treats all of them the same. And this, every one of us has a creative vein and impact. What is that that thing that's yours when you when you live it out, you know it because you know that man, This is exactly what I was created for.

21:41 It comes in moments and times when you're reflecting. You feel like man, I'm just, I feel like I want to invest the rest of my life doing this. I don't know what it is for every man, but I know every man has 1 and I know that there's things that are stopping it. But again, the the title of my book is Life Master Living Life by design, not by default. Default is just going through the day-to-day, managing your emotions where you can, doing the things you can, trying to succeed your way into feeling value. Life by design is understanding that there's tools and strategies to unleash you as the person you're created to be so that here on the inside shows up on the outside. I'm glad you stated all those masculine traits to begin with, cuz yeah, cuz those really are positive aspects of masculinity that all men really need to partaken, live up to and and enjoy the fruits of because that gets us on our path of having a fulfilled life. But then there is the more of, of what brings you joy. And I love that you're adding joy to that because that that certainly for me growing up, I didn't think joy will had a place in any man's life or as you know, struggle and toil and hard work and effort.

22:47 No one ever said, oh, go be a joyous adult male. Like what? Like that was just foreign to me. And the other thing I found, and I can tell that you have found this is how important service is. Yeah, that was something I did not. Or if it was told to me as a child I missed it. But the I I find the more helpful I am to anyone else, the more joy I feel as a result of that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And here's the interesting thing, Andy. Nobody has done anything great by only serving themselves. I guarantee you, you can't name one person of all of all of creation who has ever had a wonderful and amazing impact in the world, but they were only really serving themselves, people that had maybe some success or done some things.

23:33 I don't think any man really wants that. I don't think authentically any man really wants to have that as his moniker. And if I could give you the other part of the strength of men, it's it's also authenticity. It's also honesty. It's also vulnerability. It's also the emotional side of it. I tell people sometimes I don't know if you've ever seen that cartoon picture of a, a bodybuilder and it's some guy at the beach and he's got a massive shoulders, arms, chest and all of that. And then it pans down to his lower body and he's got, you know, these little pencil legs. He that's kind of like a man who is dealing with strengths, but not the authenticity, dealing with strengths, but not the vulnerability. And for me, finding out that a man is more well-rounded than that. I can be strong and still have emotions. I can be strong and still feel as you talked about, which I really love.

24:18 For me, it was, I mean, not to bring it down or to the conversation was when my wife and I lost twins. My dad was one of those guys that it's all strength and stoicism and nothing hurts and you don't cry and all of these things, right. He showed emotion in momentary moments. He didn't he didn't demonstrate it as a lifestyle. And so for him, it was mostly just that, you know, suck it up, get over it, move on. And I remember a time when we had lost and my wife had to deliver them and we had to go through all of that and I had to go home to tell my daughter was a teenager at the time. I wasn't going to tell her over the phone and I couldn't leave my wife's side while we were both walking through this.

24:59 She was walking through the delivery or we were walking through the grief. So at the end of that evening when I was able to get home to talk to you and my 14 year old daughter from the drive from the hospital to my house, I've, I've you talked about those moments where you felt like you're called on. It was a moment when I finally gave up living somebody else's idea what it looked like to be a man. Because in that place, none of those things that my father demonstrated stopped me from feeling crushed on the inside, from feeling such a great and deep loss in my life that I was just weeping, driving home, trying to my vision was blurred because I was crying so much because we had lost our children. And in that place, it was a pivotal moment in my life of saying, I'm I'm not going to do that anymore.

25:42 I'm not. It's useless to try and act like nothing matters when you feel like you're, you're crushed on the inside. So in that place, it really gave me an understanding that, you know, being a man is somebody who's absolutely in touch with those, those emotions, because those are the things that bring joy, that bring love, that bring the fullness of relationship. If I had no emotions, I have no relationship. And in that place, I lose out on all the challenges of grief and worry and stress that, you know, maybe you walk through at times, But I lose all the joy and all the depth of love because I can't feel one without the other. Yeah, I I often say to men that if if they learned what it means to be a man from someone who was miserable and unhappy and complaining, like, why would you want to follow that? Like that isn't that should be proof that, you know, suck it up, man up all just say a life of nothing. But saying that it it it doesn't help. Yeah, yeah.

26:40 And we persevere. I don't know any man who doesn't persevere through hard things. We do all those things, but to do them at the at the detriment of actually honesty just leaves you lacking. How long ago have did you lose the twins? It was actually quite a while ago. My youngest daughter is 26 and so it was two years before that, so 28 years ago, but I can. It was definitely one of those moments in your life you'll remember for the rest of your life. Yeah, I, I, I imagine that. Yeah, I, I, I don't have children. I do have friends that have lost children that I, I, I can't imagine a deeper pain to, to live through than that. So.

27:23 I appreciate it. But on the flip side, boy it it seems like they like live their purpose if they woke you up. Yeah, no, there's there's, there's good to take out a bad experiences. It doesn't mean they're, you know, people really misuse the Scripture that says what the enemy meant for evil, God meant for good. We we take that and equate that to the fact that God not only allowed it, but he gave permission to it. It's it's not that in life at all. It's that even in the worst of circumstances, there's things that you can take from it that you're going to be better because of it. It doesn't mean it wasn't horrible and never denies the reality of that.

28:06 It just allows you to have a perspective that says, what have I gained from this? Even in losing so much, if you could do that, you're, you're living that life, mastery life because you're finding ways to grow even in the hardest times. Right, right. Finding the gift in our our hardest challenges doesn't mean they were pleasant experiences. It just means you found something out of it. Yeah, it it wasn't. And a lot of people, Yeah, I used to live this way too. A lot of people think, oh, that that that happened because life is just horrible and it's it's just miserable to be here and being human is just stinks. And, you know, we're nothing but pain and we torment. And yeah, so I'm, I'm very glad you did not go that way.

28:49 I appreciate it. I was going to ask is there one thing that you wish more men knew? But I feel like you have probably have a list of things, but what's top of mind for what we what you wish more men knew? I think there's two sides to the coin. The first side is that this dissatisfaction, it's, it's actually a lesson in my life, Master. Of course, it, it's talking about the gift of dissatisfaction. And the gift and dissatisfaction is what I tell people is what I believe dissatisfaction is. Again, like with myself, It's that that man on the inside, I said person on the inside saying there's more than where I'm at. And you're not satisfied because you're not seeing the fullness of the life that you're called for. That's a gift for you, even if you don't realize it, because you're right. If you're right that there's more than where you're at, that means that there's more than what you're doing today. There's more than you're experienced in this moment, which means that you have more inside of you, that you have the ability to actually reach for your dreams, your goals, your passions, your vision.

29:47 So there's that. And the other part of the other side of the coin is I talked about my history and my past. I talked about going through a bunch of courses that brought change and habit, but not transformation. And so I created the life Master course. So what I tell the people that I talked to is, you know, I believe I've created what is a fully robust, fully complete life mastery course that brings transformation in your life. But there's one ingredient I can't bring to it that the other person has to, and it's the belief in themselves. Throughout my whole journey, which was over a multitude of years, it didn't happen in moments. It wasn't one quick idea and then I'm done. It was a journey that I had to walk through and grow through. But in that place, the one thing I did right in that whole circumstance was I refused to give up on myself.

30:31 I refuse to give up on the belief that there is more. Even though I get one course, 2 course, three books, 5 books, 10 books, all of these things and they didn't work out. And you talked about those internal conversations of town, right? Those times where it's like, man, am I just, am I wrong? Is this all that I get to have as far as a life? And but refusing at the end of the day to give up on myself. What I tell the guys is this. If you can bet on yourself one more time, you'll find the transformation you're looking for. It's the one thing that nobody else can provide that you can. It's this. I refuse to give up on me. I'm going to bet on myself one more time. Even if this last thing didn't work or these last 10 things or whatever it is you've tried. If you refuse to give up on yourself, you'll find your path and your way to finding the transformation you're looking for.

31:16 That's the one thing that is the key ingredient that I can never provide and you can never provide for these men that they can provide for themselves. It's the one thing that'll allow you to persevere until you finally get there. Yeah, that that rings very true for me. And I don't know if you know this about me, but I'm a survivor of multiple suicide attempts. I made multiple attempts in my life in, in my teens and early 20s. And not being able to go through that, I, I battled myself that I was so weak. But then it took a long time to realize, oh, wait, I was refusing to give up myself. That was my resilience. That was, you know, I kept, I wanted to prove I wanted some sign that I was meant to be here. And finally. Oh well, you are cuz you're here. That was I was pretty good in school, but that was the one lesson that I was I was not good at picking that one up. But again, I don't I don't recommend that path. Absolutely yeah, just yeah.

32:09 Your value and worth is innate from from birth for from from being you are worthy. It's it's nothing to earn. There's nothing to chase, Yeah. No, absolutely. I appreciate you sharing that. So we were at the the end of 2024 and I want to ask you to look back on this year or your entire life and just what, what's something you're you're really proud of? Yeah, I think for me, there's a few things. I I actually published my book like Master Liberal by Design last November, November 30th, this so a year ago November, not this past few months. And my mom was my biggest encouragement.

32:50 She was actually the reason I wrote the book. I was really invested in the course. It felt like, you know, nobody reads hard copy books anymore or they go online or whatever. Come to find out, a lot of people loved it. But she said I should write a book and I did. So I wrote the Life Master book and I was able to give it to her. In December she passed away and in April of this year. But to be able to give her that first book again, you want to you want to feel value and worth from the people that care for you the most. And to be able to have the person that was my biggest fan received my first copy of the book and and see that I accomplished the thing that she told me I should do. And handing it to her at the beginning of the year was a great blessing.

33:31 You know, of course, the people I'm working with, it is my passion. You know, I know, Andy, the desperation that that men have when they're like, again, that place of these things I've tried, haven't worked. What do I do? Am I going to give up and this is it Or, you know, I know that desperation of knowing that there's more than what you're living. And to see all these men that I'm working with take their strides and, and their steps forward and those things and doing what I said is I say is the bravest thing that any man can do, which is to confront the the issues that are staying in the way of the life I'm created for. It's so easy to ignore it and most people do it. Again, the title of my book is like by design, not by default. Default is I'm just going to ignore it and try and do my very best with what I got. But that brave guy who says that, no, I'm, I'm, I'm going to confront it.

34:16 I'm going to walk through it. I'm going to do the best I can to get this thing and have it over be overcome so I can live the life I'm created for. So every person, then every man that I've worked with, that's a great joy of my life. And you know, just growing as an individual, you know, life mastery is a journey. It's not a moment. I'm striving for higher things that I've achieved in my life. I'm striving for more depth and understanding of myself and more of myself to invest in others. So that's always a growing experience. And I'm proud for staying the course in those places. Not, you know, sitting on your laurels and, and, you know, saying, well, this is good enough and I've done enough, but saying, what if there's more? And there's always more. Yeah.

34:57 Yeah. And again, I used to think that was hard. Why is there always more than should be? But I'm like, oh, now I've, you know, from a better attitude. I'm glad that there's always more. You know, I'm glad that we're never done. Yeah, absolutely. The joy is in is in the journey, they say. And in that journey, when there's always more, there's always a reason to get up in the morning and and invest in the life that you're living. Yeah. So what are you looking forward to? But as a, as a business perspective, I have a workbook coming out this year. I've actually, I'm hoping to get it done by the new year, which is I'm out of a tight time frame and, you know, doing some other things and really try to invest in how to get the message out. So I'm really looking forward to that. All of our adult kids are out of the house. And so I tell my wife this is our honeymoon time. My wife, I, when I met her, she had a 5 and a nine year old. And so when I married, I didn't marry a woman, I married a family.

35:48 And so from that point forward, we have never had children in our house until two months ago when my last daughter moved out. And so I told her, you know, again, we were poor when we were younger. So our honeymoon was a one night stay at at La Quinta end. So I tell her, and we believe this is our honeymoon season. So the things we couldn't do when we were first married, now we get to do. So I'm looking forward to the honeymoon years of our life as well. Awesome. Awesome that. That's a great way to look at it, Mark. What's the best way for people to get in touch with you, find out everything you're up to find the book, the workbook, the class. Where is? Where is this all located? Yeah, it's a united, I'm a one stop shop. So my one stop shop is my website itsfreedom-4-life.net, freedom-4-life.net. The course that we talked about life mastery is out there and feel free to engage in that.

36:40 My book I have as an e-book version on my website, so you can see that book out there as well. Like Master your living life by design, not by default. You can't get the book on Amazon because of course you can get everything on Amazon. But if you want the E version to take on every device you have or any device you have, you can get that on my website. Best place to get in touch with me to have. If you have any questions or understandings you need to have about is Life Master for you, reach out to me at markmrk@freedom-4-life.net. Well, thanks, Mark, for, for not just for being here, but for everything you're doing and for embracing purpose, embracing the more, embracing the joy, embracing the service.

37:21 This is what the world needs more. More men being themselves, being their true selves and expressing it and sharing it with the world. Thanks so much, Andy. I really appreciate it. Thanks everyone for listening and tuning in, and thanks for a fantastic year supporting Real Men Feel. Please visit realmenfeel.org. See the blog post for this episode, which will have all the various links and resources that Mark and I discussed. Wherever you're discovering Real Men Feel, please subscribe, follow, like, share this episode with somebody, post a review or a comment. And if you're not sure where you're going, it is almost impossible to get there. If you want 2025 to be your best year yet, I invite you to book a free Clarity call with me and we'll explore what you want and what's in the way.

38:04 Visit theandygrant.com/talk and until next time they go to yourself.