Men’s Emotional Leadership Development with Owen Marcus | Emotional Intelligence and Resilience

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Field.

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This is your host, Andy Grant.
I'm an author, coach, and

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healer.
You can learn more about me at

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be andygrant.com.
Real Men Feel exists to remind

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men that they're human beings
and that they have the right to

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express and experience all of
their emotions.

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We have conversations that most
men are not having, but that all

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men can benefit from.
My returning guest today is Owen

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Marcus.
Owen is a pioneering coach and

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author known for integrating
emotional Physiology and

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attachment theory into men's
emotional connection.

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His 30 year journey has had him
featured in Men's Health, The

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New York Times, ABC News and the
Today Show.

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Owen helps men transform their
relationships and leadership

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skills, offering new insights
into achieving personal and

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professional success through
emotional Wellness.

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We enjoy a wide-ranging
discussion covering emotional

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leadership and resilience, and
lots of somatic therapies that

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Owen has studied and used since
the 1970s.

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Listen in and learn about
Rolfing, Holly, vagal theory,

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antifragility, attachment
theory, and many more aspects of

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our Physiology and how it
relates to our personal and

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emotional growth.
You'll also discover what

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conservatives and liberals both
get wrong regarding men and

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emotions.
Let's get to it.

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Hello Owen, and welcome back to
REAL Men Feel.

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Thank you.
It's an honor to be grandy.

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You've been a guest a couple of
times.

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I had to go back and see you.
The first time you're on was

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back in 2018 talking about
emotional intelligence in men.

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And then more recently you're on
in November of 2020, and that's

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when you were sharing every man.
We are your global community for

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men.
And so I know that you've left

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every man and have started a new
community.

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So.
So tell me.

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Tell me what you're up to.
Yeah, I was one of the founders

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of Every Man and brought all the
programs that I already had and

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developed all the other programs
that Every man had.

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And yeah, it just wasn't working
out.

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So I took my core team and we
started MELD at the beginning of

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the year, which stands for Men's
Emotional Leadership

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Development.
And we're doing everything and

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more that we did with Every Man
and really dialing in the, you

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could say the technology that we
developed, which is primarily

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based on the what we call
emotional.

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Let me back up emotional
Physiology, which is the how our

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emotions really start with our
bodies.

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And is that is that focus on the
physical, is that different for

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most sort of therapies that are
out there?

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Yeah, most therapies these days,
it's starting to change, but

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for, you know, the last few
decades have been really pretty

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cognitive or analytical, which I
would say we're sort of more top

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down oriented.
And I just had good the good

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fortune of being in the right
place at the right time back in

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the late 70s when somatic
psychotherapy was starting out.

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And so I got to study with the
people that were developing

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those therapies.
So back then what we were doing

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was very fringe.
Now, these somatic therapies are

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like the hot therapies to study.
And so for all these decades,

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I've been studying and really
applying how to work with the

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people, men and women, but now
primarily with men on or through

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their physical body of physical
experience to better dial in and

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better connect to their
emotional experience and be able

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to express those experiences in
a way that gets other people

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connected.
So does somatic therapy mean

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just it's any sort of therapy
that has touch involved or is it

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something else?
That's a good question.

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Cause in the broad sense it
means anything to deal with the

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body.
So it could be massage, it could

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be Rolfing, which is one of the
things that I've done for

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decades.
It could be really any kind of

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body work in a general sense,
and then any kind of

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psychotherapy that utilizes the
body as part of the

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psychotherapy process.
So now most of the time when

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people are talking about somatic
therapies, they're usually

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talking about somatic
psychotherapies.

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And I've heard of Rolfing a lot.
I don't, I don't think I've ever

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seen it.
So I'm not really sure what it

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is.
Can you, can you tell us about

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that?
Yeah, It was developed by Doctor

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Rolf.
She never wanted it named after

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her.
It started back in the late 50s.

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And she.
The story is that she was

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working on her son because no
one else could help him and he

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got well.
And then one person after

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another and then she ended up in
Eslin, Big Sur in California.

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And that's really when it took
off and she started working with

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people there.
They saw these amazing results

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on 2 levels.
Their bodies changed, their

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physical structure changed, and
their emotional state changed.

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And So what she developed is a
series of 10 sessions where the

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goal is to realign the body
physically with gravity.

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And so we don't usually think
about the body being aligned

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with gravity, and we do if we're
building a building or a bridge,

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but we don't think that our
bodies deal with gravity, and

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they do.
And our body functions better

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when it's better aligned.
So she'd work with function and

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movement.
But what everyone found out is

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in the process of getting rid of
the old chronic tension, so the

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body would line up and so it's
like literally the skeleton had

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enough room to do what it needed
to do.

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A lot of old trauma and emotions
would get released.

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So when I got Rolfed up back in
the late 70s, did the 10

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sessions, nine months later, I
was an inch taller and 20 lbs

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lighter.
And I wasn't fat.

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I just had these huge tight legs
where all my tension was.

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A lot of it was emotional
tension or trauma, and when that

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let go of, my legs just dropped
away and I went from a waddle to

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a normal walk and my structure
really changed.

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But probably what changed even
more was my whole emotional

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state changed.
I went from being very uptight,

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not only physically but
emotionally, to much more

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relaxed.
And that was really the impetus

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for me doing everything I've
done ever since.

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Oh cool, so that was your your
gateway drug, so to speak it.

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Was it was and I resisted.
Yeah.

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Only reason I got into it
because I had a roommate in this

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is Boulder, Co and the Ralph in
school was or he is.

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He was an attorney had given up
his raw.

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Excuse me, law practice of eight
years and he argued his case

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every night.
And I said all right, all right,

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I'll try.
And that's all it took one

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session.
I was like.

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Sold.
Cool.

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So men's emotional leadership
development does, does that mean

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you're really working with men
in, in, in business and

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government people that
leadership is really part of

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their their career?
Yes and no.

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I mean, we do B to B like
Google's been one of our biggest

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clients, but most of us B to C
and you know, working with men

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in a more of a consumer way, a
one to one or or grooves or

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trainings.
Now what we found is as men go

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through our process and there's
a lot of ways they can do that.

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They become better leaders and,
and often it's just in their

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primary relationship or, you
know, at home, they're, they're

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showing up in a more embodied
emotional way and they're not

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working at it.
They've, they learn these skills

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that were never taught.
And because they're intrinsic

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skills that we should have and
we're hardwired to have them,

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that once these guys learn them,
it's easy, it's natural, and

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they just find themselves, like
with their partners, behaving

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differently because that's who
they want to be and that's who

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they're being.
So it can.

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It's improves one's leadership
of their own life.

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Not necessarily.
Only if I'm on a leadership

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track for my career.
Right.

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And so most of my coaching
clients come from because they

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want to work on the
relationship, but most of my

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coaching clients are either
entrepreneurs or like C level

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executives.
And so after a couple of months,

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you know, the relationship sort
of turns around because they've

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turned around using these simple
skills.

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And then we start working with
applying these skills and their

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Business Contact.
No, from the the the last time

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we spoke briefly, but before
recording the show you, you

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mentioned Poly vagal therapy,
which I had not Poly vagal

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theory theory.
All right, so.

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So what is that theory?
Yeah, it we just had the fellow

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that invented it on our program
a couple weeks ago.

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And it was his name is Steven
Porges.

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And he was actually, he, he was
the first research director for

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the Ralph Institute.
And he, he was a scientist that

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really started discovering that
we have this.

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You didn't discover the nerve,
the vagal nerve, which is the

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tentacranial nerve, which is the
largest nerve of the body.

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But he started, he started to
discover its impact on us and

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its impact on, on our physical
and emotional health.

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And one of the things that him
and others have discovered is

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that 80% of that big nerve goes
from our gut all the way up

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through her body into her brain
and 20% goes down.

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So it's a big reason that
everyone's talking about the gut

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brain now.
And so he, he explains through

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his research how all that works.
And he got involved in Rolfing

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because he was working with
Rolfing.

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They did some research decades
ago.

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And, and because Rolfing again
works with that.

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So one of the things that he
discovered is that as mammals,

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and particularly as humans, we
had this ability to Co regulate.

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And so I'm looking at you now
and I'm listening to you now,

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Andy.
And you're relaxed, your voice

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is relaxed, you're engaging.
So the first thing is you feel

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safe, which is a the first thing
that we're always at least

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unconsciously looking for is
this person or is this situation

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safe?
So assuming and you are safe, I

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start to down regulate, I relax.
So my Physiology starts to

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express that I am safe.
My voice is a voice of someone

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that's safe.
My facial muscles, my my body

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movement represents
unconsciously that I feel safe

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and that creates this sense of
Co regulation.

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So we start to connect to each
other and I start to mirror your

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behavior.
You start to mirror my behavior

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and we start to connect.
And in theory we learn this as a

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kid, but the problem is we
didn't get enough training as a

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kid.
So we don't get into what they

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call secure attachment, which is
a core of what attachment theory

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talks about.
So as in one of the things that

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happens when we work with guys,
particularly like in a group

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setting, is men start to teach
each other how to Co regulate,

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how to connect in a vulnerable
and authentic way.

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So that starts to train their
bodies on how to do that with

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others.
So you mentioned vulnerability

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there and that's something that
we talked about on real men feel

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often.
What are sort of the

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misconceptions that people still
have about men and

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vulnerability?
Obviously, you know, the biggest

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one in our culture, culture is
that to be vulnerable as a man

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is to be weak.
And we all sort of know that it

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takes courage to be vulnerable.
But we often don't do that

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because if we are in the normal
setting, we're often shamed or

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rejected or, you know, all the
things that we experience.

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But I'm sure you see this with
your work.

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We do with our work, we create a
safe space.

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One guy ends up being vulnerable
and it shows everyone in the

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space that it's safe and
suddenly everyone's being

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vulnerable.
And we we like with a course of

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a few minutes we can flip it
180°.

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Yeah, that's a fine time and
time again it takes that first

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man to kind of break the ice and
then, yeah, everyone gets

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permission, feels that sense of
safety or or and starts to down

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regulate and and relax and
really open up.

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Because we want that and we need
that.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Are you seeing that happen if

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like if you work with with like
a Google, is that able to happen

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in their own meetings going
forward with without you

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present?
Yeah, or at least they tell us

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it happens more.
And So what we do to get there

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is we teach them some simple
skills.

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We sort of chunk down what we
do.

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And you know, I have a whole
manual, 100 page manual and we'd

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look through all that for
Google.

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So we take the essence of that
and we teach these men how to

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connect to their own somatic
experience, which again down

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regulates.
So it has them feel more

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relaxed.
And as they're connecting to

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their own experience, we teach
them to be able to read other

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people read the non verbals.
And we we go through exercises

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where they learn how to do that.
And these, you know, we

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primarily work with Google Apps,
which is a scientist.

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So these are brilliant people
and, you know, you would say

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they're in their head, but they
really want to connect and they

241
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,160
pick it up real quick.
And they find that once they

242
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learn these skills, that takes a
little practice.

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00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,400
They start implementing them in
their meetings and in, you know,

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dealing with their associates.
And so rather than go in there,

245
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,840
maybe with me being the bull in
the China shop or just in their

246
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:51,320
head, they remember to slow
down, connect to themselves and

247
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start to, you know, reach out
and connect to these other

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00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,320
people that they're interfacing
with.

249
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And what they find is their
meetings are more productive.

250
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:07,580
And I've heard in the past you
say that emotional intelligence

251
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is a real driver behind any
man's success.

252
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So is is this one of the ways
that that that shows up by be

253
00:14:15,540 --> 00:14:18,580
the better relationships, the
better communication at at at

254
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work and and that that having
that place of safety in any in

255
00:14:22,220 --> 00:14:25,200
any interaction you have?
It Yeah, it does.

256
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:30,040
And, you know, ever since
Goldberger, what's his name?

257
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,800
Dan.
Well, anyway, wrote his book

258
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,400
about emotional intelligence,
which has been decades in many

259
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,120
decades, this whole thing of
emotional intelligence has

260
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,280
gotten really popular.
I'm all for it.

261
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,480
The But is is they.
They don't tell us how to do

262
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,120
that.
They tell us how we should be,

263
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,880
which for men so often creates
more performance anxiety.

264
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:55,120
So you go, you want me to be
this way, You don't want me to

265
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,600
be that way, you want me to be
this way.

266
00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,640
All right.
And then we're not giving tools.

267
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,520
So guys get more stressed out.
And the whole DEI thing is

268
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,040
stressing a lot of guys out, but
we're not giving guys the simple

269
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tools that we all sort of had
growing up.

270
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And So what happens is they
might try, but they fail.

271
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And then then guys, you know,
one of the ways that we Orient

272
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,120
is we, we take on things that we
think we can succeed at and we

273
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sort of like challenges, but
when we think we can't succeed

274
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,160
at something and we haven't been
succeeding at it, we just sort

275
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of walk away.
We give up.

276
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So a lot of guys are giving up
everything from relationships or

277
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,400
try to try to use these skills
that they'd never been taught in

278
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,120
these professional situations.
But when we can take these guys

279
00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,480
aside, put them in a safe place,
which I used to think it would

280
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,840
have to be just a, a, a male
setting, but I've done it now in

281
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:56,840
Coed settings, but in a safe
place where these men have an

282
00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,560
opportunity to sort of screw up
and learn what they didn't get

283
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,680
to learn as kids.
They will learn it.

284
00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,120
And once they learn it, and then
they can apply it in these

285
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,640
professional situations and
actually create more of what

286
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,520
they call now psychological
safety, which is another thing

287
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,840
that's gotten really popular.
But you can't create

288
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,200
psychological safety unless
you're creating the things that

289
00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,160
we're talking about, like Co
regulation.

290
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,400
And are these are these skills
that anyone?

291
00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,400
Can learn.
Anyone can learn.

292
00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:33,880
And are they only kind of
learned through experience?

293
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,600
It's, it's not just a book.
It's not, you know, it's not

294
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:39,560
some online meeting.
It's got to be you go somewhere

295
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:40,880
and you're physically with other
men.

296
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:45,680
No, you, we've done it, to my
amazement, very well virtually.

297
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,240
But to infer what you're saying,
it needs to be interactional.

298
00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,720
I mean, you can read about it,
you can study it, you can learn

299
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,480
the science about it.
And which is one of the things I

300
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:57,880
love about Porges, he knows the
science.

301
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,840
Hell, he's written books, half a
dozen books on it, but he

302
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,040
interfaces with the
practitioners, first of all,

303
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,960
first, now the therapist, and he
gets all this feedback.

304
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,520
So you got to learn it not just
cognitively, you got to learn it

305
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,920
experientially, which could be
virtual, but it's the

306
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,599
interaction that teaches you.
And what are some of the

307
00:17:17,599 --> 00:17:21,000
specific skills?
You mentioned simple skills a

308
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,000
lot, So what are some of them?
But one of the skills that we

309
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:31,280
teach is what I call the Roc
formula, ROCR, is we slow down

310
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:37,960
the relax, which is the key
thing because when we slow down,

311
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,440
because people tell us, you
know, I've always told me relax.

312
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,280
Oh, relax, all right.
But then again, it's a

313
00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,520
performance thing.
I get more stress because you're

314
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,080
telling me to relax and I don't
know how to.

315
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,600
So we teach people how to relax.
A lot of that is this somatic

316
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,040
mindfulness.
That's a general term, which is

317
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,720
being aware of your body.
So when you're aware of your

318
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,360
body, you're telling yourself,
you're telling your body, your

319
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:04,240
unconscious, your emotions, and
your conscious mind.

320
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:08,600
Hope that I'm saved.
Because when we're in a threat

321
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:13,440
response, our awareness is out
here and it's sort of going back

322
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,840
to the past, remembering things,
thinking about the future.

323
00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,320
It's that's where we are when
we're in a threat response.

324
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,120
But when we're down regulated
and relaxed, we at least have

325
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,120
some awareness of our own
experience.

326
00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:28,680
So when we can't be aware of our
own experience, particularly

327
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,720
somatically, our nervous system,
down regulates, our endocrine

328
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,320
system down regulates, We go
from a, a sympathetic fight or

329
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,960
flight response or the
parasympathetic frozen response

330
00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:45,520
to this state of being able to
socially engage and which was

331
00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,360
again, which is what Ford just
talked about.

332
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:50,880
So that's the key.
Slow down, then you relax.

333
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,360
The O is you open up to being
vulnerable.

334
00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:59,160
And I know you'll like this, but
it needs to come from a place

335
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:05,360
of, of being relaxed because if
I'm trying to be vulnerable, I'm

336
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,120
not relaxed and I might be
trying, but I'm well jacked up.

337
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,160
You're going to pick that up.
It's going to be a, a

338
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,920
dissidence, an inconsistency,
and you're going to, you know,

339
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,480
be like doing what you're doing.
Like this doesn't feel right.

340
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:21,800
But if I'm relaxed, even if I'm
feeling nervous, but I'm willing

341
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,240
to feel nervous, there'll be a
congruency.

342
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,960
So it's not like you have to be
Mr. Mellow.

343
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,360
So, you know, we know this when
people are giving speeches, if

344
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:34,960
if they just say, look, I'm
nervous, they're willing to be

345
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,160
nervous.
The audience relates to him, but

346
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,360
if they pretend they're not
nervous and they're pushing

347
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,440
through that, the audience feels
that tension.

348
00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,440
And so when we could be
vulnerable to our own experience

349
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,280
and maybe express it in some
way, we open up.

350
00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,880
And again, we prove to the other
person that it's safe.

351
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,760
So they start to open up.
And then the C is we reach out

352
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:02,320
for connection from the
vulnerable place, from being

353
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,600
aware of our somatic.
We reach out and we take a risk.

354
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,960
And and that's scary,
particularly from a vulnerable

355
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,960
place, because we might be
rejected, we might be shamed, we

356
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,720
might be ignored.
And that takes courage.

357
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,520
But a lot of people,
particularly if they're a little

358
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,960
open, they're going to sense
that and they're going to

359
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,960
respond.
I in.

360
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:28,920
In a matching way or positive
way, receptive way, Right,

361
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,080
Right.
Or I guess I mean they don't

362
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,080
have to I.
Mean no, they don't have to.

363
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,760
And and you know I don't always
practice it, but I when I do and

364
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:43,320
if they reject me, yes, it hurts
the but is I, I, I can always go

365
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:49,000
yeah, but I took the risk right.
And like any exercise, you do it

366
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,720
enough you get stronger at it,
you get better at it.

367
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,840
So even if I don't always
succeed, I'm always honing that

368
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,800
skill of being able to show up
that way, right.

369
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,880
Yeah, important.
And no, for me, anytime I'm

370
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,560
learning any new skill, but
especially, you know, when I was

371
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,000
first daring to, to, you know,
share some of my experiences and

372
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,320
talk about depression and
suicidology and such.

373
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,520
If, if, if someone didn't
receive it well, if if the first

374
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,240
time I shared with someone,
someone was like, oh, you're an

375
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:18,840
idiot.
Get out of here like Oh my God.

376
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,280
Like I might never have done it
again.

377
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,760
So it's really is important
again, that's why you have that

378
00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,120
safe space.
You you learn these skills

379
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:30,280
ideally in a circle of men that
that support you so that if

380
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,280
someone ever does reject or just
ignore whatever you're you're

381
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,040
trying to connect with about,
you don't go well, there goes

382
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:39,440
that.
I will never, I'll never share

383
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,800
again.
I'll never open up again.

384
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:42,960
Like, no, it's it's just that
that one time.

385
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,760
It's not because it doesn't
work.

386
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,320
Exactly.
And you know, it still hurts,

387
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,640
but you go, you know, I was
sharing this whole thing last

388
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,000
week in my men's group and they
honored me.

389
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,120
You know, guys were crying, they
were cheering me, whatever.

390
00:21:56,120 --> 00:22:00,640
It's like I was received.
So no, the issues with this one

391
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,320
guy I'm talking to, not with me.
Right, right.

392
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,400
Yeah.
You, you can bump into someone

393
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,840
else's stagnant growth or
difficulty being vulnerable.

394
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,520
So they just can't deal with,
with you.

395
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,200
And, and yeah, it's not about
you, it is about them.

396
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,760
Yeah, right.
So is that, is this notion of

397
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:23,040
practicing this, is that really
at the core of of emotional

398
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:27,120
resilience?
Yeah, it is about practicing it

399
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,640
and you know the term
antifragile.

400
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,360
No, yeah.
Nassim Taliban wrote this book,

401
00:22:35,360 --> 00:22:38,520
it's been out for several years,
called Antifragility, and I love

402
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,360
it.
The title's a little confusing,

403
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,440
and he talks about being
fragile, which we understand

404
00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:48,320
about what that is, talks about
resiliency.

405
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,360
And then the third one is what
he calls antifragile, which is

406
00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:56,200
really a continuation where it's
more than resilient.

407
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,760
And it's, and I think it's sort
of what we were just saying

408
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,240
earlier, it's having these
experiences and failing at them

409
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,200
or having challenges and leaning
into a challenge and getting

410
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,960
stronger from these experiences
'cause it's more than just being

411
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,760
resilient.
It's using these challenges and

412
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,760
mistakes and failures to become
more robust.

413
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,560
And his simple example is, you
know, you go and work out with

414
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,280
weights and every day you you
might put a little more weight

415
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,120
on it.
So it's still hard and you might

416
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:30,760
fail, but over time you're
getting stronger.

417
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:35,040
And just as your body or your
muscles get stronger, when we

418
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:39,400
lean into these kinds of
challenges and failures, we get

419
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,840
more anti fragile, we get
stronger.

420
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,480
And, and that's one of the
powers of the groups that you

421
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,800
have, and I have is guys can
fail.

422
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,360
And I do.
And, and one of the things I've

423
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,960
said from day one of all my
groups and trainings is make

424
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,600
mistakes.
Like Bucky Fuller says, if

425
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,600
you're not making mistakes,
you're not learning.

426
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:02,160
So make mistakes, and it's
easier to make mistakes in a

427
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:08,840
safe place.
Yeah, so one thing about like

428
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,200
the definition of resilience
really means coming back to

429
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,840
another state.
So if if I'm always angry,

430
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,760
emotional resilience could mean,
well, you temporarily got me

431
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,840
happy and I'm going to go back
to my angry state.

432
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,600
So I like the notion of, yeah,
being robust is kind of going

433
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,280
beyond the the the old normal.
So yeah, I like that.

434
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:27,840
I like that.
I'm going to look for that book.

435
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,880
That sounds cool.
What sort of challenges are you

436
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,280
seeing men that that have them
coming to meld today?

437
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,160
Well, pretty much what we've
seen, you know, I've seen for

438
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,440
really decades, probably the
biggest challenge is men

439
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,040
struggle in relationships.
And I mean, we don't get guys

440
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,360
that are, you know, hugely
struggling, but we get guys that

441
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:55,960
are often, you know, successful
professionally, but the

442
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:00,560
relationships don't model the
the success they have in other

443
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,840
parts of their life.
And they're smart enough to

444
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,280
realize, and this is where I
started, where I was a

445
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:10,040
consistent available and they
go, you know, it's not working

446
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,760
out.
Maybe I need to work on myself.

447
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,800
And some have tried therapy,
some haven't.

448
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,640
Some are sent by their
therapist, and they're looking

449
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,520
at, you know, developing these
skills.

450
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,040
And it's maybe realizing it's
not that there's something wrong

451
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,880
with me.
It's just that I didn't get to

452
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,360
learn what I needed to learn.
And so they're coming for, you

453
00:25:28,360 --> 00:25:31,000
know, to develop relational
skills.

454
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,360
They're in a transition in their
life.

455
00:25:33,360 --> 00:25:38,040
That's another reason they want
to develop these skills in a

456
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,080
professional way.
Another one is they want real

457
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,760
friends because, and you
probably see this and do that,

458
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,880
you know, as we get all those
men, most men in the research

459
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,280
supports this, have fewer, fewer
friends.

460
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,600
So when we were in school, maybe
the military, we had really

461
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,520
close friends.
So we might have friends, but we

462
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,160
don't.
And most men will say they don't

463
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,200
have that closeness, the
intimacy, the support that they

464
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,120
had when they were younger.
And we miss it.

465
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,720
And it's like, where do you go
to do that?

466
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,800
And so guys are coming because
they go, you know, I, I want a,

467
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:18,680
a venue where I can be real and
I can be with other men are

468
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,320
being real and we can have a
real friendship.

469
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:26,440
So what's what's a typical
experience for a a consumer of,

470
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,480
of of MELD?
Is it, is it online and virtual?

471
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:36,280
Is it a a weekend, a a week,
multiple weeks or everything all

472
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,960
the?
Above So most guys start out

473
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:42,240
doing what we call a core
program, which which is a

474
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,920
program I developed before I
ever started every man.

475
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,800
So it's been out for, you know,
10 years, had different names

476
00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:54,120
and it we, it was six weeks.
We tightened it up down to four

477
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,360
weeks and now we're going to
expand it to three months

478
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,600
because it's a really rich
program where we teach the basic

479
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,760
skills, again really through
interaction.

480
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,960
And a lot of the skills are
these somatic skills that guys

481
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,520
really relate to.
Because again, you probably see

482
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:17,240
this so often, if we come at
guys purely emotionally, some

483
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,320
will resist, some will run.
But when we come at it through

484
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:25,120
the Physiology and the science
of the Physiology, guys relate

485
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,120
to it.
So we get a lot further, a lot

486
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:30,760
quicker and we just want to make
that program a richer program.

487
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,240
So that's usually where guys
start.

488
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,280
And then we have retreats.
We have, I run a 12 week intense

489
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,880
group coaching program.
Yeah, we have individual

490
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:46,200
coaching and then we also have
ends up being about a nine month

491
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,560
certification program.
That's like three parts doing

492
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:55,600
this time off in between some
parts where we teach laymen and

493
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,160
professional coaches and
therapists and psychiatrists

494
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:02,920
these skills so they can do that
one to one or in Group settings.

495
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,400
And we've been designed the
course.

496
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,120
It's like 100 different lessons,
and we've done it three times

497
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:11,240
over the years and we'll do it
again.

498
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,560
And it's a deep, deep dive in
our work.

499
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:20,360
And it's a huge transformational
experience for men because you

500
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:21,920
know you're learning it from
doing it.

501
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,480
And so you're doing it with
yourself and you're doing it

502
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,600
with the cohort that you're in.
And they're working on you and

503
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,240
you're working on them.
And you can't go through this

504
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:36,160
program and not be changed.
And you you did mention doing

505
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,040
some, some Coed things as well.
And I know you have a you're

506
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,120
doing your first couples retreat
soon, is that right?

507
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,960
Yeah, so.
We're doing a six day couples

508
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,240
retreat down in Costa Rica for
the Valentine's week in

509
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:51,960
February.
We've been, my partner's a

510
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,400
couples therapist and Dalia has
been the therapist or couples

511
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,000
therapist for decades.
We've been doing couples

512
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,760
weekends for, I don't know,
seven years since you heard

513
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:09,560
before that, but we were invited
to do this couple's retreat down

514
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:15,880
in Emmaloa, which is amazing
retreat center in Costa Rica and

515
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,520
maybe the nicest one down there.
And so they invited us to come

516
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,840
down and leave this couple's
retreat down there.

517
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,400
And it's we're already more than
half sold out.

518
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,440
And so it's taken this what we
done before and we can and just

519
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,880
enriching it.
And it's a whole me tight

520
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,800
retreat.
The homie type is a term that

521
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,760
Sue Johnson developed and Sue
Johnson was also on our program,

522
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,520
but she recently passed away,
which is really unfortunate.

523
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,040
And she was the the person that
developed emotional focused

524
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,440
therapy, which is a now a very
hot therapy.

525
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,640
And and she took the whole
attachment theory, which again,

526
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,320
I said sort of started with
babies and really found a way to

527
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,200
apply it to couples.
And then she developed a whole

528
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,840
therapy around it and being a
scientist, she did a lot of

529
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,600
research around the therapy.
And even though she's gone, the

530
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,880
therapy continues to grow.
And so we've taken that approach

531
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:19,920
and and her homie type sort of
program and enriched it and now

532
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,240
we're doing it over essentially
a week.

533
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,920
Pretty cool.
So you've developed all these

534
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,840
programs, you've been learning
the Physiology and emotionality

535
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,040
and masculinity of of being a
human male for for decades.

536
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,320
How did you learn what it means
to be a male?

537
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,160
I think I learned it by not
learning it like most of us.

538
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,080
I mean, I grew up in a family
that I used to think was pretty

539
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,320
normal.
And then as I got into all this

540
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,440
work, you know, made my 20s, I
realized it looked normal on the

541
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,520
outside, but wasn't normal.
It wasn't normal in terms of

542
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,000
healthy normal.
It might have been average, but

543
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,280
the average part was it was a
lot of connection.

544
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,480
And the more I got into this and
the more I realized that I

545
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,760
didn't have what now they would
call secure attachment.

546
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,400
And I think that was actually
part of why I developed

547
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,360
Asperger's was I didn't know how
to connect.

548
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,960
So with that and my dyslexia and
a few other things, I was sort

549
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,440
of pushed into really learning
this.

550
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,600
And like they say, the best way
to sort of learn something is to

551
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,480
sort of teach it.
So not that I really wanted to

552
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:32,800
teach it, but I wanted to be in
the men's group.

553
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,720
And I started one when I had an
integrated clinic back in

554
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:43,120
Scottsdale in 1995 and saw that,
you know, just being with men in

555
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,560
a real way, I could learn this.
And then I've been in men's

556
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,360
groups ever since then and, and
just being in that kind of

557
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,280
peer-to-peer setting and then
bringing in all this other

558
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,720
technology that really
facilitated it with myself and

559
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,800
thousands of men.
Now we've seen, you know,

560
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,320
applying this method and in
these peer-to-peer settings,

561
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,160
men's lives can change or
transform pretty quickly.

562
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,080
And we have a lot of guys that
said, if I wasn't in this group

563
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,480
or didn't do this program, I
would have killed myself.

564
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,600
And they did a documentary film
on this group and this approach

565
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,280
several years ago.
And one of the guys in the in

566
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,160
the film says, yeah, you know, I
was going to kill myself.

567
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,960
And then I remembered I had this
group and I could call Owen and

568
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,920
and the group and Owen would
take care of me.

569
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,680
And they did.
And I'm like, I'm alive because

570
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,840
because of it.
So how does that feel?

571
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:41,680
It feels.
Great.

572
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,520
I mean, it's, I mean, it's this
group that I started in Idaho

573
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,320
essentially 20 years ago was a
group that they did this film

574
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:51,680
on.
And there's several men just in

575
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,400
that group.
A few of them are bats that said

576
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,960
that, yeah, this group is what
saved their life.

577
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,840
Because, you know, you've seen
these vets, the trauma that

578
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,240
they've endured and the impact
of that trauma is huge.

579
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,840
And they need a safe place to
unpack that.

580
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,320
So with all the training you've
gone through that you've

581
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:21,920
created, that you put out into
the world, does anything stand

582
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,200
top of mind that if you wish,
you know, more men knew this one

583
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:26,800
thing?
Is there a one thing?

584
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,000
Probably that, you know, if they
want to change their life and

585
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,400
their relationships, which is
often what they want to change,

586
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,800
and then their own experience of
their own life.

587
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,360
The short chorus is to use your
body as a tool to get there.

588
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,200
And that's what I've been honing
for coming on 50 years.

589
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:57,760
But in the last 30 years,
particularly with men and I'm

590
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,920
and, and, and the research is
catching up to what we're doing.

591
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,080
It's just getting, proving what
we did.

592
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,880
And they did a big study on on
this course I told you about.

593
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,199
And it was published in in the
premier psychological journal,

594
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:17,320
the APA journal about this
course, an 18 page paper about,

595
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,280
you know, the value of this work
and what it did for these men.

596
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:25,120
And so, yeah, I think if guys
can use their bodies as a

597
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:30,880
vehicle to change their lives,
they'll see a huge benefit from

598
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:32,320
it.
And you don't.

599
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:36,960
Mean, you know, get up and take
action in in that traditional

600
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,600
sense, but using using the the
inner wisdom or the inner

601
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,480
healer, the their body in a new
way, Yeah.

602
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,480
Yeah, using the their awareness
of the, the body, you know

603
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,600
what's happening in their body.
Learning some, you might say

604
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,159
science, some principles that I
could teach in a few minutes,

605
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,000
but really learning how to apply
it.

606
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,520
That's the thing.
And practicing in a safe place

607
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,040
to apply these simple skills and
then applying them to life

608
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,640
because they weren't.
You're going to see

609
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,800
reinforcements in your life.
It's going to, it's going to

610
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,960
compound and, and because we're
hard wired to use these skills,

611
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:14,040
once you learn them, they pretty
much stay there.

612
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:15,720
It's not like you got to
remember them.

613
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,480
It's just, it's just like we got
two arms and you know, I've just

614
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,200
gotten really good at using my
right arm and my left arm is

615
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,360
sort of atrophied.
But if I start to strengthen it,

616
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,560
I start to use it for different
things to get stronger.

617
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,160
It's as agile.
And so I get this ability to be

618
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,480
and redemptorist.
And so that's sort of what we're

619
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,040
talking about with the body is
we got this huge resource that

620
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,640
we think in most ways in this
culture, it's just a vehicle

621
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:46,720
that gets from place A to place
B to eat food, to have sex and

622
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:50,040
maybe do sports with.
And, and for most guys short of

623
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:55,040
that, that's it.
But it has a lot more capacity

624
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,600
to serve us than just those few
things.

625
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,480
Great.
They mentioned that

626
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,680
relationships are often the the
driving force for a man to to

627
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,240
seek help, to seek growth.
Do you have any any advice for

628
00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:11,520
women that see their men
struggling?

629
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,880
More, more and more women send
men to us because they see this

630
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,240
and and women care about their
their man, be it their partner

631
00:36:22,240 --> 00:36:28,480
or their son or whoever.
But in a general sense, a couple

632
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,120
of things first, and this is
sort of what like port just

633
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,320
tells therapists to tell their
clients.

634
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:41,160
And I would adapt it for women
telling men it is that men

635
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,000
really want to succeed, but they
don't because of a couple

636
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,560
reasons.
One is the culture that we've

637
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,840
grown up and and you know, women
grown up in this in this culture

638
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,240
too.
So they're limited for sure.

639
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,160
But men, and I think most women
would agree that men are more

640
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,640
limited than women are in
general.

641
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,360
And like the biggest one is men
can't show their emotions.

642
00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:08,520
So we got all these cultural
beliefs.

643
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,720
A lot of them are subjective or
inferential or, you know,

644
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,520
they're not necessarily
plastered and billboards, but we

645
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,360
know them when we believe them,
we often as kids are teaching

646
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,880
them to our friends, like, oh,
you're a crybaby because you

647
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,720
you're crying because you hurt
your knee, you know, So we we

648
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:28,040
reinforce or enforce these
beliefs.

649
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,120
So the culture is in some ways
our enemy as men.

650
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:37,160
So if women, when women
understand that, that gives them

651
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,160
and men a little more space.
And then the other part is the

652
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,640
trauma that men have suffered.
Again, it's not taking away

653
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,400
women from the trauma they've
suffered.

654
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:55,400
But traditionally as men, we've
seen we get our approval by how

655
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:58,720
well we perform.
And a lot of that performance

656
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:03,080
has been on the physical realm
from, you know, now we, you

657
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:08,720
know, we went from the farm to
the to the industrial revolution

658
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:10,880
where it was less physical, but
still in the beginning where it

659
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:15,280
was physical, to the, the tech
revolution, where in general,

660
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,800
work isn't physical, But still
that belief that, you know, we

661
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,440
need to be strong, we need to be
big, we need to do all these

662
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,360
physical things.
It's imbued in US.

663
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,840
And that could be a limitation
for certain men.

664
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,360
And, you know, we're the ones
that generally go off and fight

665
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,640
the wars and with that come back
traumatized.

666
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,640
So there's all these things that
men are dealing with.

667
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:40,400
And there's a fellow named
Richard Reeves that wrote the

668
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,800
book of boys to men.
We had him on our program, too.

669
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,760
He's a Brit.
He was working for the Brookings

670
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,400
Institute.
Now he has his own based on his

671
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,480
book.
And he just unpacks the whole

672
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,040
dynamics of boys to men are
suffering.

673
00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,600
And he distills it down to say,
look, the liberals have it wrong

674
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,000
and the conservatives have it
wrong.

675
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,920
The conservatives want to take
us all back to the 50s where

676
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,920
whatever the man wants is what
we all have to do.

677
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,560
He knows best.
And then the liberals won't see

678
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,520
it as anything you do for men
and boys.

679
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,800
You're taking it away from the
women and girls.

680
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,040
And Reeves says, and I would
agree, both are wrong.

681
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:25,880
And we, it serves women to
understand and really support

682
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:31,400
the development of boys and men,
but it's not the development in

683
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,520
the way that we traditionally
have seen how to develop men

684
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,640
emotionally.
And what I would say

685
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,960
specifically around that is that
particularly since we left, you

686
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,760
know, the farm for the
Industrial Revolution, women had

687
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,160
to show up because men, you
know, had to go to work.

688
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:54,680
So it's like the women became
the sole parent.

689
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,800
The T-shirts were women and then
the nurses and therapists are

690
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:59,760
women.
So what's happened over a few

691
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,680
100 years, what it is to be
emotional as a man has sort of

692
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,720
skewed towards the feminine.
And it's not a conspiracy

693
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:11,080
theory, it's just how it's
happened.

694
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:19,280
And so some of psychology or
therapy and the culture is

695
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,920
trying to have us be emotional
like women.

696
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,320
And I say to women, I say to
men, women are really good.

697
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:33,320
At knowing when we get it right,
they're not nearly as good at

698
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:39,960
telling us how to get to right.
But you put me, you or any guy

699
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,760
in a good group or good
training, the the experience of

700
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,520
being with other men is going to
hone that guy's emotional

701
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,560
skills.
One, because he's going to see

702
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,040
it and maybe there's a little
teaching, but mainly because he

703
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,160
has a, again, a safe place to
practice it.

704
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,600
And So what I've seen over the
decades of working with men is

705
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,240
when guys get it, a lot of it's
just the practice.

706
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,360
Women love it and they don't
understand necessarily what

707
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,440
we're doing entirely or how the
guy's getting it, but they love

708
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,920
the result.
And the joke in my ongoing group

709
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:21,440
or groups has been the best
night for romance or sex has

710
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,120
been the night of the group
because these guys come home and

711
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,760
I've had women because I used to
live in this small town.

712
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,560
These women come up to me and
thank me for, you know, the

713
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,720
group and what the guys were
their husbands were getting from

714
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,640
from the group.
And a few of these women

715
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,000
literally said things like, he's
so attractive and I want to rip

716
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:46,360
his clothes off because he's
present, he's masculine, he's

717
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,080
vulnerable, he's open, he's
engaging.

718
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,360
And the women just melt now.
They don't know what we do in

719
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,080
our groups, but they like what
is produced out of that, right?

720
00:41:58,080 --> 00:41:58,960
They like the.
Results.

721
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:00,880
Yeah.
Cool.

722
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,000
So, Owen, what's the best way
for people to learn more about

723
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,920
Meld?
Go to our website meld dot

724
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:13,560
community.
It's MELD and then community

725
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,200
spelled out.
We have newsletters which you

726
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,520
know men and women can join.
We have a free membership which

727
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,480
is just for men and they, you
know, they can learn about the

728
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,400
programs we have, the thought
leaders we bring on.

729
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:34,680
We're here to really support men
and creating a new model of what

730
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,680
it is to be a man.
Awesome.

731
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,200
Yeah.
And that that's a model that,

732
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:43,240
yeah, always, always needs
updating and expansion.

733
00:42:43,240 --> 00:42:46,240
And it's really is something
that I think is is really alive

734
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,440
and ever changing.
Yeah.

735
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:53,240
And and you know this as well as
I do that men are really wanting

736
00:42:53,240 --> 00:42:56,640
it and more than ever or seeking
it out, I think we've always

737
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,040
needed it.
But each year men are more open,

738
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:05,520
maybe more courageous, maybe
bigger necessities, but

739
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,640
whatever.
They're coming to all our

740
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,680
programs because they want this.
Awesome.

741
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,080
Well, Owen, it was great to
connect with you again and learn

742
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,600
all about MELD and I love how
you are bringing so much science

743
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,200
and research into personal
growth and to leadership.

744
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,840
So kudos to you and hope the
great success with MELD and all

745
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,080
of your upcoming events and
retreats and, and everything

746
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,040
else that you create.
Thanks for everyone for tuning

747
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,920
and listening to us today.
Please visit realmenfield.org.

748
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,600
There'll be a blog post for this
with this episode, and there'll

749
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,160
be links for all the books and
the programs mentioned, ways to

750
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,960
catch up with Meld, and way to
dig deeper into all the books

751
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,400
that no one mentioned.
Wherever you're discovering Real

752
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,440
Men feel, please subscribe,
follow, like, share this with

753
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,360
somebody, post a review or
comment.

754
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,760
You can always reach out to me
at realmenfeel@gmail.com.

755
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,120
I'm always glad to hear from you
and until next time, be good to

756
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:01,600
yourself.