Men's Fears of Women

0:00 Hello and welcome to real men. Feel I'm your host, Andy grant real men. Feel is here to remind you, that men are human and have the need desire and ability to express all of their emotions. I'm also a coach author and healer you can learn more about such things at the Andy Grant.com. My guest today, is, dr. Brian Weiss, dr. Weiss is a psychotherapist and award-winning author and teacher his decade-long work on understanding the internal lives of men culminated with his recently published best-selling book hidden in plain sight. How many spheres of women shape? Their Intimate Relationships. Dr. Weiss is a regular contributor to the psychology today. Website and offers workshops nationally about Psychotherapy with men and helping men and women. Understand each other.

0:42 He practices Psychotherapy online from his home on an island and Midcoast. Maine specializing in Psychotherapy groups for men and Psychotherapy consultation. Now Ivan was scheduled to be a guest last fall. I think it was October and I believe it was a little, it was a legitimate power Issue. 11 of our ends, was a bad storm. So we I had to postpone, we both thought the postponement would be a week or two, I imagine. Yeah and then it being 10 months due to my withdrawal from life. So I want to start off by thanking you for your tremendous patience, sir. Happy to you. Come highly recommended. I'm glad to talk with you. I don't know if you noticed me smiling at your introduction because I thought wow, what a world we live in that. We have to start by stating the premise that men are human. We have to remind people that men are human. Yeah.

1:30 And unfortunately, we really do know. I got it but it's like listening to you say it. I'm like, wow, what have we done? Yeah. So yeah. So let's jump in. I really want to focus on your book and we talk about fears and I've experienced fears, plenty of times. So is there a particular fear that men have of women or is there a conglomeration of them? It's a conglomerate conglomeration. That's a hard work but I think that they are hierarchical. Uncle in that I think that the fears that we know more about that we recognize and that men will actually acknowledge our rest on deeper fears. So if you start near the top I think the stuff people know about would recognize would be things like men's fears of being dominated and controlled by women. And you can see that anywhere in the culture with all the jokes that we make about men being pussy-whipped, men, being who wears the pants, The family, A lot of times. I'll ask guys I'll give them a scenario and I'll say, okay, your friends at work.

2:36 Say to you, hey, we're going out for a beer afterwards. Why don't you join us? What's your first thought? And if they're honest, what they'll often say is, my first thought is I wonder if my wife or girlfriend or part. I wonder if she'll mine, which is crazy for two reasons. One is shouldn't your fought first thought. Be would I like to go have a beer with these guys? And second of all, In most cases their partner has never said they mined in fact, they may have actively, you know, like you don't have friends. Why don't you get out more? But it doesn't stop men from being worried that they're bad or wrong or they've done the wrong things. Like I think that's the fear, that is pretty recognizable for most people. That's when the as you talk about that, I'm having like flashbacks to like bad sitcoms and to like how to do sitcoms just perpetuate this nonsense like, oh I better talk to the wife and I'll be in trouble and all that sort of Goofy maleness. That that were taught is how we really are. They do perpetuate it but they also reflect it. Like those writers are trained to write things that people resonate with.

3:42 And so if nobody ever thought that or felt that the show you would never see the show. Now, have men always been afraid of women, or is this more of a modern age issue? I think it's an old ways because I found something by a writer in 1840. Something Talking about men being henpecked and, and what? Yeah, so as far as I can tell, I think, as long as there have been heterosexual, couples. Well, I mean, I could be really silly and say, was, was Adam afraid to say no to Eve? Oh, she said here, eat this apple. He's like, oh God told us, not to it's okay, it's okay, yeah, it's a no, yeah.

4:24 Did that first man? Fear his wife, more than God, like, I'll disappoint God, but I better not disappoint this one. In front of me. So this interview is already a big plus for me because I never thought about that before. But I will now incorporate that that's a great line. Was that a more afraid of his wife been got And even that feels like a joke or a Twist that I've heard people say absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So I think it starts there and then when you get down to the deeper love, so the other sort of readily, recognizable. One is is how afraid men are of any conflict with women and what enormous lengths, they will go to, to avoid conflict in any way. And typically, what men do is they try to make the argument hyper-rational and they Insist that their partner be sensible and rational why do men do that?

5:17 I think because men are afraid of our own emotional expression and so which is why your show is your show. And so the way we manage it in relationships, is we try to get women to be less emotional. So that will feel less, right? Because we're uncomfortable with what we feel. So if you would just calm down then I could calm myself down, right? So our men afraid of being Controlled period and conflict period? Or is it really a different aspect when when it's regarding a woman? It's a different assets. Great question. As a different aspect with women, because if I get in a conflict with you and I don't like the way it's going, I'll just leave.

5:59 I don't need you. If I get in a conflict with my partner, not only is there a dependency there but it's an unacknowledged dependency which is why men send such confusing messages because on Hand. So, for example, how many times have you heard men complain about sexual frequency while I've done wanna have sex that we don't have enough sex, it's pretty common. So if you say to a man, well, why don't you just masturbate If they don't even understand in themselves, why that wouldn't work, that there's something beyond the orgasm, that they're not even admitting to themselves. There's an emotional dependency, emotional connection. If it were just about a release of physiological release, you could just masturbate, but that's not satisfactory. And I don't think men often understand why it's not. Did you go into this line of work and write this book? Because you have your own experiences at right? Are you have you been afraid of women? Well, my premise is that all straight men are so be kind of ridiculous for me to say all straight man except for me, that's why you're the expert.

7:12 Yeah. No I I sort of understood this in myself, as I sort of looked at how long I had been unhappily, married a marriage that started off great. And Overtime, degraded and became much less satisfying to both of us. But clearly, I was terrified to say how unhappy I was. So yes personally and then, you know, my primary teachers have been the men sitting in my office, talking to me about this and they just keep saying again and again and again and it when I bring up in a group, the idea that maybe this is about being afraid, the men just come alive because it explains so much for them.

8:00 Was there a particular Insight? Aha action that made you have your own. I don't say breaking point, but realization of the, the level of fear, you Hood. Well, I think I understood it in other people before. I understood it myself, it was sort of retroactive for me. And as I listen to men, consistently talk about all the things they were unhappy with in their marriages. And I would say, sort of naively. We'll have you talked to your partner about this and they would look Look at me like that was the stupidest question that anybody had ever asked them, like know. I'm, of course, I haven't talked to her. That's that's why I'm here. And then it occurred to me like what kind of sounds like you're afraid to talk to her?

8:41 What is it? You think what happened? If you would talk to her and then we start unpacking it from there. Yeah, we are, we are bizarre beings. Well, I think that but I think that, you know, we were talking a little while ago about the layers of fear to and I think the bottom layer, the most profound that RN largely in denial because they fear of being abandoned and you know, men are taught to not need anyone. But we know we can see that men are afraid of being abandoned because in a heterosexual, couple when there's a break up, Puri Partners first. Man. So if we don't need women how come we're in? Such a hurry to get re partner.

9:24 That's funny. Yeah. So we're so afraid of Abandonment that we won't speak up and raise any potential issue that could lead to advancement. That's exactly what men say is that if I bring it up, it will make it worse. Yeah, I hear lots of guys. Say, you know, my partner expected me to be a mind reader and I'm supposed to just know we're thinking, but then they act the same way and I'm looking to raise me as you think Dish. You'll just know. No. This or if it matters to her, she'll figure it out. That kind of, I've heard that a lot too. I work with one guy. I work with him for. I don't know something like a year and it during the course of our work together. He filed for divorced separated from his wife and I can tell you that's to this day, she has no idea what he was unhappy about. He was literally that two young children. He was so terrified to talk to her that they are now divorced and I pretty confident.

10:17 She has no idea why It's amazing. Yeah this this question is based on something I experienced by doing the show. Do you find that? That saying men are afraid of anything. Does that lead you to be seen as an time? And somehow oh oh yeah, just a little. So I'll answer it in two ways. One is the sort of individual and the other is the larger to an individual level. When you say to a man, I think you might be afraid of your partner. The reaction is so similar. Every time it's almost comical. The first part of the reaction is this a boa. They get defense by unafraid to know, but you get that but amazingly it never lasts.

10:59 As long as a minute within a minute. You can just see the wheels starting to turn and guys going. You know, you know, that's an interesting idea that that might explain a lot. And then in the culture at large, I have been attacked. Interestingly by both men and women. I've been attacked by and and I've been attacked by men in ways that literally frightened me. So I've been attacked by men and called the feminazi and all kinds of stuff for suggesting any that men are afraid. And then I've been attacked by women. Who think that I'm trying to rationalize bad behavior by men, like, I'm being more simple just like the start of your show. I'm daring to say that men are human and we should try to understand them and they're saying, no man are wrong and behaving badly and we should just call them out. And my response is, how is it, you know, unless you're planning on leaving an another continent where there are? No men.

12:07 How is it? You think that This is ever going to get better. If we don't also try to understand what's going on with man, right? So what do you say to those bitter men that that will say Lee all women are narcissists and they just you know, use men, throw them away with treated horribly. They maybe they want to be in that country. That is free of all women. What do you say to guys like that? Well, you know the whole make Town movement, the men going their own way. So, yes, there are many men who have decided. I mean, what I try to do is I try to look past the anger and the implied violence at times, and I try to Understand that this is an incredibly hurting human being that I'm talking to that, nobody gets that bitter without being really hurt.

12:52 And that most of these guys have had some pretty traumatic experiences and relationships. They're not very connected to the party that they've tried to cut off the part of themselves that wants to be close to another human being. So that's the part. I try to talk to, that's the part. I try to reach out to is that You know, you're going to massage parlors three times a week that as that just about sex or that's just about maybe you want somebody to touch you even a stranger that kind of conversation. Yeah, I did a think I did three different shows on on mgtow a few years ago and the way that I was able to talk to those guys, I found a common ground.

13:37 We both wanted men to be happy. Yeah, we both might want to find P so I could they could and it like I do. There was I was attacked a lot online but then people that watch it was like Hey this guy's try and at least like I'm like yeah there's always. Yeah. So I went from but I think all the other feminazi of heard that one too and like like oh that well unfortunately, I think it's a problem. We better address and we better start getting more real about because most of the people who are doing these mass shootings are these guys, you know, they're the in cells. The they're very angry, bitter, and violent, and so we can't just ignore them. Men act like they're not real. Do you find that?

14:18 This fear come before anger. Well, I think anger often mask sphere. So I think we're saying the same thing in the sense that anger is, if you think, if you imagine for a moment yourself being angry, you will find your muscles Contracting. So it's a more powerful position to feel angry. It's a more socially acceptable position for men to be angry than afraid. And so, I think men are taught to to sort of lead with anger as the emotion The most comfortable with and so anger, often covers sadness, fear longing, all kinds of stuff comes out his anger in men, right? Because that's more, that's the acceptable mask. We can put on to hide all those deeper. Again, you took one of the big fear fear of emotionality fear of Abandonment.

15:08 So yeah, of course, it's enormously confusing to women because you're talking about saying that would seem to be tender but the person you're talking to is sounding angry. So, you're like, I don't understand what you're angry about like what? What is going on here? What are some of the repercussions of immense fear of women? There's a there's a researcher by the name of Jim O'Neill who wrote the introduction that forward to my book who has done or had colleagues do over 200 studies on what he calls gender role conflict and I'll make the connection and moment. So gender role conflict is the gap between who you Yourself to be and who you believe Society, expects you to be as a man and the more that Gap.

15:58 The more emotional problems you have financial problems, you have physical. I mean, even things like high blood pressure, all kinds of things and O'Neill's work. Suggest that the cause of gender role conflict are men, spheres of women or is the underlying cause. And so, the costs are, I think, I think men's fears of women are big part of, what caused what? We're now, calling depths of Despair and Men deaths from overdose deaths from suicide. You know, we know that loneliness is as big a health risk as smoking cigarettes. And I think that has a lot to do with these fears. Can men change overcome lesson, these fears? Absolutely.

16:51 I, that's a really important point to me. So, one of the things I insisted on the book, although I had mixed feelings about it. The last section of the book, there are three chapters work for men to do, work for women to do and work for men, and women to do with each other, in that order. And so, one of my things I've learned in my experience, This is the first time I did a men's group, I remember distinctly that right before, I'm ready to walk her in the room for the first time. I thought this is one of the worst ideas I've ever had. They're not going to talk. They going to, you know, I'm going to be pulling teeth all night or going to talk about work or you know, it'll be so sterile.

17:34 Opposite is true. The group's. I run with men's or the most devoted and committed and intimate groups I run. And what I've learned is that Men are dying to talk to each other. It's women were scared of but men were dying to connect with each other and so I think what man can do my idea is that it goes better when men start talking with each other before they try talking to women. And so the book has some pretty specific guidelines for men who want to connect with other men and talk about these issues. There are some pretty specific steps for guys about how to find like-minded. Dude, man. Form a support group and get together and start talking with each other.

18:18 Awesome, awesome. Yeah, one of the I'm actually in training to run men's groups with the mankind project right now and I'm not Staffing a weekend for them. Next month in Massachusetts and are you familiar with their work? I am. And I talked with them, they're great group and I think they're doing exactly what I'm talking about. It's helping men to find each other and connect. Cool. Yeah, he won't be there because now that the We're coming through the pandemic. I'm tired of saying it's over and being wrong but as I'm going through this, I know I know that those in person groups are happening again all over the country all over the world. So that that does resource for because I'm unless the guys that claim you know like one of the one of the things first resource I made with room and feel was a good guide for adult men, making new friends because nobody hides, I don't know where to go or how to start or, you know, I think they don't even think it's actually even a little worse and then I think that most men do Realize they don't have friends until something happens.

19:17 So typically if you ask a man, if he has friends, they say yes, but it's the follow-up question. You need to ask which is no by friends. I mean someone you actually talk to oh no, I don't have those kind of friends. Yeah, well goes back to fear. Yeah, I don't want admit. I'm if I fear being abandoned. How can I tell some stranger that? I have no friends. Exactly. Exactly. And so it's usually either when people get divorced or retire for men that they look around And realize that, if they, the people, they thought of her friends were there wife's friends. Yeah. Or friendships. They were orchestrated by their wife, which women do so that they can see their women friends. Because they know if the guys make at least some kind of connection, they'll spend more time together as couples. It's powerful.

20:02 And these are all like, why isn't this talk to us? And like freshman year of high school like, going good, you know, make a group this this matters and I know there's a I can't remember who says originally but there's a song that male cells sing and the presence of especially older men like teaches just innately passes. Good things on and doesn't Role Models interesting. Well I live in a community where more of that happens than happens in the rest of the world because it's an island and people have lived here for generations and they fish So so typically grandfather's will take their grandsons fishing with them and teach them about things like hard work and honesty and accountability, you know, not in those words perhaps but indeed older men are teaching younger men, but I think in the World At Large, we've lost most of the ways like, who grows up with their grandfather anymore.

21:06 You know, who even knows their More than superficially or who sees how many people have any idea? What your family, men or young, man, have any idea what your father does for work beyond the title? Do you know what he does? During the day, you know what it feels like what it looks like. What it's like for a man to be in the world of work during the day, things like that. Yeah. I mean Beyond let alone grandfather's so many men don't know their fathers growing iron. So goodbye. We're live in very aged segregated world. World's. So your island is proof that. No man is an island. There you go. But see I have met there.

21:48 I mean there it's the opposite. There are people in my community people. I know range in age from 30s to 90s. And how does that diversity help with with fear? I think it helps because growing up and growing old is not abstract. It's real and you have role models of how been live in the world. And the question I've learned to ask people recently which is incredibly powerful and informative question is, I ask Men and women, but different version for each. I asked men, what did your dad teach you about? Women not just in words.

22:34 But in action, how did your dad behave toward your mom? And what did you learn about women from your dad and for women, of course, what did you learn from your mom? And what women mostly tell me which is very troubling is the majority of women tell me that from their moms, they learned that men are not to be trusted not to be counted on. Don't expect to be close to a man and figure out workarounds Horrible. So when we see men who are, who seemed highly susceptible to feeling criticized, you know, men are very quick to think that women are criticizing him.

23:16 They are. Then I'm a thing about to yeah it may not be over and out loud but it's there. Yeah, it might even be criticism from something they've learned from the person in front of him is just the Christian. They've been taught to repeat. Yeah, well, I think what? Ben's, is that women get frustrated trying to connect with us and so they get critical as an expression of that frustration. Yeah. So you've kind of answered this with, with the mention of those last three chapters but was hidden in plain sight, how many spheres of women shape, their Intimate Relationships who was it written for I'm glad you asked because it is written for women as well as men. And in the workshops I'm doing with couples, I had a chance to do a workshop where we had a two-day workshop and then the same group of men and women had another two-day works out for months apart.

24:10 So I got to hear how the first two Days impacted them, and the women had actually made more changes in their relationships than the Manhattan. Because what the women said was, I have really thought that my husband was just being a jerk, all these years and I've been angry at him for years, understanding what's going on with him. I feel much more sympathetic actually have a, quote, here from a woman in one of those workshops, which I think he'll say it clearly. She said, I understand that my husband has not been ignoring dismissing or hurting me out of a lack of respect, as I have always suspected, but that he scared scared to hurt me. Scared to mess up with me scared to not be enough. I had honestly, never imagined he was scared and that I was so profoundly important to him that he was constantly terrified. I would leave.

25:09 The book is written for men and women and what some couples are doing which I really like. Is there reading the book together, a chapter, at a time and making time to talk with each other. And for the men, it's really helpful because they're basically saying, you know? Yeah. Like he said you know, they're not real skilled yet have expressing themselves but they can say, yeah, chapter 2. That's me. Yeah, cool. If you gave me a question that I have to ask What did your dad teach you about women? Who that's, I'm glad you're asking my parents had a very unhappy marriage. And so, I think what my dad taught me about women, unfortunately, was that it doesn't get better, you can't talk to them.

25:59 There's not going to be a conversation. I think they sort of each state in their own orbits until they thank God. Finally, separated, They were both profoundly unhappy and didn't know how to reach each other. And so I think the message was kind of one of Despair and hopelessness. Yeah. Hmm which just see a lot of. Yeah. How long did it take you to free yourself from that lesson of Despair? Took me. Most of my adult life. I would say it's in the within the last 10 years or so that I finally get it aging helps. You know you sure to realize that the clock's ticking and you don't have forever, that's interesting. Thought so If you feel hopeless and despair, you find that the ticking clock can help break out of that. Well, if you feel like you're wasting your time, I don't know. I don't have infinite time.

26:51 So I'm going to, I'm not going to put up with this feeling anymore. I'm going to ever wonder why if you watch football and you get to the last two minutes and all of a sudden, the team that has not been able to move the ball. All game, all of a sudden goes right down the field. It's the same team, well, something about it being the last two minutes, loosens him up, or something. But now they're like marching right down the field. And you're like, where the where was that? The rest of the game? I think life can be the same way. When you sort of get to the, at least the final quarter, at least, if you're smart, you kind of look and say, oh, you know, I've been waiting all three quarters to run this play. I either run it now or games.

27:32 Going to end. Yeah. And and the game is not. How can I feel the most fear for the longest time? That is not a, I mean that that is a game, a lot of us play. But it's not what I recommend. Yeah. But at some point are you are you willing to take a little bit of a chance. So you're willing to come out of those fears and say, well, here's what I want, you know, I don't ever talk about it, but here's what I ache for ya, real men, fear could easily be what the show is actually called. But but I think even fewer guys would look for that title of a real men feel. But uh, yeah. Yeah we are, we are such a freaking collection of fears that we don't want to. To admit to own recognized. Take a look at.

28:14 So I really appreciate the work you're doing, and bringing some light to this. Thank you. I feel like it's important work. And, and I know it's important work because I've talked to hundreds of men. And, again, I want to thank those men as the people who are my primary teachers. Because that's who have learned about this from. Is there telling me how important it is? And what a difference it makes in their lives. Yeah. What day is always struck me when I started realizing it. Like so many And want to be seen as Brave and courageous, but that requires fear. Yeah, if I deny I'm not afraid of anything, but I am brave and courageous. Well, that can't be so people who are without fear, in the face of danger are psychotic. So intimacy, it's saying to be scared about intimacy because it is scary.

29:10 It is vulnerable. It is it is exposed so it's not crazy to be afraid. That's great. Huh? One of the things you said earlier about growing up and growing old and I wanted to just come at you because that you can combine them. And in my experience I find there's really a difference between growing up and growing old. So I just I just want to ask what you thought of that. Well I'm growing up is growing old. Gives you the potential to grow up but it was so the not synonyms, then, right? Know if Hayward be a lot better world, but, you know, it has a lot to do with who you hang out with all of us were, you know, where tribal animals and we watch other people and we we look for things that we think are working for them. So I've been watching long-term, happily married couples for a long time.

30:13 And I watch very carefully and I don't just mean in my office. I mean anywhere, I am in life and I try to First and I try to see what is it that's working for them. They've been together, 30 40 50 years, they seem quite happy with each other and you know it's a very it's a very simple, not profound answer. I've come up with, they have nice to each other, you can see that when they start to get to a point of contention that they don't, they don't bare their teeth, their considerate, thoughtful, their gentle. Makes a big difference. Yeah, yeah. I mean a simple just just be kind can be as simple as exactly of luck and, and to yourself as well.

30:58 That's not just outward. Kindness damaging. Yeah, yeah. So every step on some political toes here, but I have a t-shirt that I love. That says make America kind again. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Yeah. I wish someone would run in such a platform. Yeah, I mean, what's the, what's the best way for people to learn more about you see all the things that You're up to best way, is to go to offer Weiss, PhD.com, a VR, umw eiss PhD.com and you will find a link to the mailing list there. And if you sign up for the mailing list, you will get a free ebook called Life Lessons Learned which is some of the some of my favorite columns that I've written online and then you'll be on the mailing list and you'll get and what I'm doing now is looking for communities that want to bring You there as a Speaker Workshop leader, whether it's your church, or the Lions Club, or whoever because I'm doing these workshops helping men and women, understand each other. And so you can email me at that link. We are from Weiss PhD and if you're interested in having me, come to your community.

32:06 Cool cool. Yeah, I hope they get a long-lasting international tour because yeah because this is stuff that everybody needs to hear and understand and and ideally change as well, not just live with those fears. Yeah, I mean it's sad to me. One of the things I do in the workshops is I'll give a scenario that couples often experience and I'll ask the men to write down on a postcard. What are you thinking in this scenario? And I asked the women to write down a postcard, what do you think? And then I'll read some of the postcards to the audience. And, of course, the men have absolutely no idea everything. They would guess that the women are thinking is the opposite, they're wrong.

32:47 And the women Completely wrong about and it's like, you live in the same house, you eat every meal. Now you eat every meal together, you sleep in the same bed and it's amazing how little, you know, about each other. It reminds me of the, of the older, The Newlywed Game. Yeah. But, but it never end. I didn't learn anything more about how long they're very, that's actually a great reference point. Yeah, so I think we want more with each other. I think, you know, underneath the fears, we yearn to be closer. Maybe that's maybe that's the answer. But is there one thing that you wish more men knew? Well, I like that question.

33:31 I wish more men knew that women want the same things they do that. They knew not to think about women as somehow like an opponent but understood that the person sitting across from them, while they think about things differently and feel differently in the end, they want the same things you do and that they're not trying to criticize you or put you down the trying to connect with you. Trying to get closer to you. Yeah, it makes sense like if guys communicate by busting each other's balls and being joking sarcastic. Well the women they do that. That's how I that's how I get to get into this then so yeah, that makes sense. However, thanks for.

34:13 Thank you for your 10 months of patients. I believe. This conversation was well worth the wait. I love everything that you are up to everything you did with us and as I mentioned to you before we started, but yeah, come back, anytime. You have the desire, I will and they encourage everyone. To check out the website, check out the book. It's good stuff. So thanks for joining us. I'm thanks for joining us. Everybody wherever you're discovering real men. Feel, Please Subscribe follow, like, do whatever. The thing is on the platform that you're doing this thing on. You can always write to me at real men. Feel at gmail.com, always glad to hear from you and until next time be kind to yourself. There you go. Thanks everybody.