Moving Beyond Being Your Own Worst Enemy

0:00 Real men, filled with Andy Grant encourages men to allow and express all of their emotions, despite what you may have been told all emotions, do serve you real, men feel is committed to engaging in discussions that most men aren't having, but all men can benefit from if you would like a one-on-one conversation to help you get clear on what you want in life. And what's in your way of getting there, visit the Andy Grant, to.com slash talk and book a no obligation. No cost appointment all links mentioned. In each episode are in the show notes found on the blog at real men. Feel dot-org. Now. Let's get to it. Hello, and welcome to another edition of real men. Feel dizzy, host, Andy Grant. I've done a number of episodes on on race this year. And I wonder if I have if I talk about this enough and but is it Overkill, but then just more shit keeps happening. And, you know, so I'm really glad to my guest today. Is someone I I chatted with just briefly like I do with potential, guess and it really has felt like we hit it off and really enjoy.

1:07 Talking to him and getting to know him. So my guest today is author and motivational speaker, Ishmael Brown. Welcome to the show Ishmael and be, how you doing this evening. Thank you, sir. Very good. You knows, that's kind of blindly beating around the bush earlier, but you know this week yet. Another black man has was he was shot seven times in the back. Jacob Lake in Wisconsin, and I was looking to head up to make sure I had the name right in the town and then I see that a day before a black man was shot to death. With Louisiana, and I didn't I didn't know that at all. So, you know, it feels you know, I feel like an idiot saying oh this summer of troubles continue and it's not because that it's not hasn't been to Summer.

1:49 It's been right on time. There you go. So with all this with, with protesting, with black lives matter seemingly at its Crescendo at its peak of people, you know, of all Races paying attention and yet No, the violence keeps happening people. I mean being shot seven times in the back. I just I don't understand how that frickin what anyone is thinking as a police officer doing that. But with all that in my rambling? I'm not sure why I'm feeling. So, how are you feeling right now? I want to start by first saying that, you know, there still needs to be a mandate to arrest, the murderers of Brianna Taylor.

2:33 We have not forgotten about that. It's unfortunate. That it has taken this long to receive some semblance of justice. So my heart and my prayers go out to her family, her friends and just everyone that's out there. That's continuously fighting the fight to ensure that those murderers are apprehended, moving forward to Jacob Lake and thank God he survived. But what I think about this is a very unique situation because we've never seen it from the Survivor standpoint. The individual who the harm was done again. So, it's going to be on the DA's office to really stand up, and take a stance against Injustice, dorm towards black people, and very curious to see how that plays off again. I'm thankful that he has survived. My heart goes out to his children, who were able to witness such a heinous crime committed against their father. I just think about the PTSD, they may experience moving forward just as the site of a police officer, the anxiety that they, you know, It's heartbreaking. What's a circle back to myself?

3:42 What I'm feeling like it's. It's beyond frustration. There's a tiredness but they're still the willingness to fight and to speak out and to be an advocate for men, women and children, who look like me. We've been doing this since the beginning of times. And I think 2020 was just, you know, enough is enough with the entire world basically on a standstill because of At 19 that's been the blessing of it is that everyone is forced to take in these regurgitated new cycles and see what's been going on in our community since the Inception of time. So that's the upside of it again, you know, just the frustration is building, but I think it's a matter of adjusting our reaction to once we feel disrespected and how we go about handling these these heinous crimes in these. Acts that are done against us, it just stand up and go, get some type of action in regards to policy, change voting for our local leaders and doing things in accordance to what's going to be understood from a political standpoint. And this is not a new show by the time, this airs things could be a clear about the situation in Kenosha. But as of right now, we've just seen this, this really ending of the of the situation.

5:07 And Jacob has turned his back on police and heads to a car, which I assume this is and and he's shot while he's like getting in his car or, you know, I, you know, I can guess and make assumptions that the story is. Oh, well, he was disobeying police orders. They afraid they were afraid, he was grabbing a gun, whatever might be. But the one thing, the one thing that strikes me is Even if I was ignoring the police officer and and walked away. I have no fear of being shot in the back seven times where and and that is the I think the tremendously telling part of this country. Like there's really there's these two very separate experiences of interacting with police. There's two different Americas and it's triggering for me because I've been assaulted by police physically in the front yard of my home.

5:57 I was 18. Is old. There was a disturbance that my home between, you know, my parents, and the police were called, and my front door was kicked in and at that standpoint, I don't know what's going on. I was sleep and I just rushed into action because I felt as if I can need to protect my home from whatever that outside threat may or may not be. So as eyes get outside, I see it is my stepfather and he's with these police officers. Then a physical altercation ensues between him and I, then the police attacked me. Physically attack me. It's a Sunday morning.

6:39 My neighbors are home. They're beginning to come outside. My mother screaming, my sister screaming. It's 401. I'm not resisting. You know, I'm screaming at the top of my lungs, please stop hitting me and it got to the point where, you know, I was taste several times. My mom was an employee of the Actions office. I don't want to say the official name, but she was a officer of their correction, one of their correctional facilities and she's very understanding of how, you know, these type of situations are supposed to be handled and it was just an abuse of power. I was apprehended and arrested and I was taken to jail. Was that your first experience with police officers? And in any way from a Brute Force perspective? Yes, we've had interactions previously, you know, being pulled over being harassed.

7:39 Being asked to step out of a vehicle for having a blessed tail life, you know, things along those lines. Do you have guns in here? Do you have drugs in here, you know, just being overly interrogated. But that again was my very first and I pray my last Physical altercation with police. Okay. Okay. So it it was the last and did that. Did that experience turn you, will you more? I don't know anti-police, fearful the police. Like, how did it change your perception of the police? If it did, it did it? I was fearful for my life. Like, you know, there's always been a disconnect with the black community and the police force, just in general, but I think we all are.

8:23 Warned against, you know, these type of situations occurring. Once that actually happens to you. There's a sense of shock and panic. And again, it like, even on my mug shot. My face is bruised. I'm bleeding from my forearms that I was slammed on concrete. And like I said, tase multiple times while being cuffed, so it's just that obsessive force, that was demonstrated towards me. And, like I said, my mom had to watch all of that. So imagine the helplessness there and I just think about I could easily been a hashtag. I could have been on the back of a t-shirt. You know, it could have been me. So it just there's this in a fear and also like anxiety when I see police officers. And so does that continue when you see other black people being attacked being killed?

9:14 Do you have your own PTSD and Trauma from that? Yeah. Yeah. As a reminder, every single time you don't get over it. You just think about man. I just God, that I was able to, you know, survive my situation and my altercation but you know, it doesn't feel any better that it's happening to anyone else, you know, because those are families that are going to be grieving. Those are children that are growing without parents and growing up and understanding that. Hey this could happen to me. What are some of the stereotypes about being black, being a black male in America that that you grew up with and, and, and impacted? You, you know, I'm wondering if there are stereotypes that that you notice, and you follow or their stereotypes, that you you here and you kind of reject.

10:02 Oh, I think, you know, growing up you naturally by into those stereotypes because it's a, you know, it's a conditioning that I have to be three times better than my Colleagues or my white counterparts and peers. There is this element of you know, I don't want to be a statistic don't want to end up in prison. I don't want to end up a victim of you know, crime and criminality as a whole. So you spend your whole life attended to combat that in addition to being raised with a lack of empathy, not being able to express what you're feeling internally. And there's a sense of being disengaged with those around you because you're internalizing all of these things and then there's this whole other aspect of it where you don't feel as if anyone can understand what you're experiencing, what you're going through and then compact that with the teaching of your man, your strong, don't feel you.

11:03 Don't cry. Who does that? And you become a ticking Time Bomb. Just waiting to implode. Before you start exploding on all of the Ships and people around, you actually do love you and maybe well, but there's just this Fury in this anger that's picked up inside of you because of those stereotypes and because of the conditioning that goes along with those, and of the stereotypes that you were cognizant of growing up. Are they all still in place? No, I had to do a lot of work to be able to shed that thinking and get rid of that perspective. Like that's all of the name of Your podcast, real men feel that is very valid and it just makes me more cognizant of communicating and articulating that very sentiment to the generations behind me. And even the generations around and ahead of me because some men never get that, lesser, never crack the glass ceiling and have the understand that it's okay to feel. It's okay to communicate who you are and what you're going through.

12:13 Any of my talk to recognize that that man box and his deputies and the stereotypes that men are supposed to live up to and not feel and not a mode and not cry, but it does seem when I talk to black men that it's all that of being masculine and then there's more for being black, like your. Yeah. So you're supposed to be even tougher. You're supposed to show even less emotion, right? Because that was accurate. Yeah. No. That's pretty accurate. And just think about how that impacts you and dating how that impacts you, you know just across a variety of relationships. Soooo, regardless of the dynamic like all you know how to do is exemplify. This one, essence of self and we're humans. We are naturally prone to Evolution.

12:55 We're very complex beings. So to tell me and then stealing me that I have to be this at all times. It's sickening. Why do you think the limitations the boundaries of what a black man is even tighter. Better than what a white man is like, is it coming from overall white cultures? Is it coming from Black Culture onto yourself as a black man? Wow, now that's a heavy question. I think it's most of tooling, you know, when to be accepted by the masses won't fit into certain spaces can use Corporate America.

13:38 For example, with my hair. I never had hair my tire like mama. Always told me that you're going to struggle to find employment. If you grow your hair, you know, ensure that you have a low, nice clean-cut keep. Face, shaved, all of that because you're going to be discriminated against those are the type of conversations. You have to have within our households fast-forward, to graduate college. I step into my first career job and I say, you know what, growing my hair because now I'm in the door. I've already proven what my value is to this company. Not going to tell me any differently. Now, I'm going to be me because I think that is a challenge that were faced with, as the people.

14:20 How do we step into these corporate Arenas and be our host? Sales, when historically, we have not been accepted, when you look at the executive boards and the leadership. You don't see people who look like us. Now. There are some companies who are a little bit more diverse, but are they inclusive? And what I mean by inclusive? Are they inclusive in regards to the decision making when it comes to the direction of the company, the values of the company, the ethics and so forth in regards to the hiring. That's the disparity. So for me, I vow to be my complete and true self in every space that I'm in and I value that because there's a wholeness because I have to be able to look myself in the mirror day in and day out and be at peace with it, as who I am, is not controlled by the perception or the opinions of others. I hear that.

15:17 I guess what I really want to ask about is, is as a young man that this this message of Keep your emotions inside, right? That, that perhaps, you know, being angry is, the only emotion, or even, maybe even angry angry. You can't show that. I was just supposed to be stoic all the time show. No, emotion. That does that? Does that feel like it came from Black Culture around you or maybe with black Black Culture saying don't show any emotion because fear of the greater white culture around you would punish you for showing any emotion that does that make any sense. No, it makes sense. In my experience. It was taught to me from my community as to how to handle myself with him, certain spaces, how to carry myself and within the household. For example, like I grew up in a household a single-parent household.

16:13 Where is my self, my younger sister, my mother, my father did not live in the household. There were periods of time where we did not speak to each other. You know, year plus. So, for me, there was the expectation to be that man within the household. And how does a man exemplify himself through this stoic, understanding of life, that, you know, there's a toughness to me. I have it figured out. So, that's where it came for, in my experience. Got you and I get, you think it was taught to you as a way to keep you safe. Or just as a way to just, just, just how it's supposed to be like, no one ever questioned it.

16:58 I think it's defense mechanism. Like, this is how you get through life. We don't allow anyone to obtain control over your emotions. There's this do exist and the toughness because as a man, you were supposed to be the protector, the provider, and all of these other masculine like characteristics for the home. So it's a tandem combination of those things. So your your book is really your Memoir is called My Own Worst Enemy a black man's American story. So what are some of the ways that you were Your Own Worst Enemy?

17:42 Oh a lot of a lot of self-deprecating, wasn't the greatest fan of who I was a lot of self sabotaging buying into those stereotypes and acting. We not being able to get in contact with my own feelings and emotions. I just did not have the words to describe them or what I was going through. So for me, it was just me subscribing to this idea of Titan ISM, and I don't feel anything and like I said this hatred that I had about myself that just manifested from childhood well into my adult years and those were all the things that combine to make me My Own Worst Enemy. So you said you weren't a fan of who you were and actually you even hated yourself.

18:40 Were you was this like conscious awareness in the moment or more of a in hindsight? You see this? It was a hindsight thing. I had to go to therapy to really get a grasp of what my actions were doing to self. I could see what it was doing to others and you know keeping everyone at Bay and not allowing anyone to demonstrate an essence. The love towards me because I just seen so many particular experiences, where, you know, family members had done me wrong, or done my family wrong. My immediate family. I seen friends turn their backs on, you know, my household, we were in need and, you know, specifically being homeless, we were staying with the family member, there was an altercation between that family member my mother and that family member said, you know, what you and your Got to go and I remember being a kid and just, you know, seeing all of my sister's toys being thrown into the front yard and it was like, for me, if a family member would do that to you, a stranger will kill me. And that was the mindset, that just it was a seed that was planted that just manifested in the way that I view relationships because I had this concept in my mind that I can make it through life by myself.

20:04 I don't need anyone. I just need time and my own ability to continue to push me forward and Propel me through life. And that was a part of being My Own Worst Enemy because I wasn't the warrant. I didn't allow myself to trust others or give people the benefit of the doubt. To even prove me wrong. I just wrote them off of jump. So how did you come to realize that you were your worst enemy? To therapy, being able to identify my own wrongdoings. Any situations again not allowing people the benefit of Doubt, to express their love, to show me that they were different than, you know, that particular family member being able to open up my heart into one.

20:55 Forgive myself for the self-deprecation, not believing in who I was subscribing to those. False ideas of Titan ISM and you know being tough I had to forgive me that's where it started and being able to grow from there through therapy, through having these conversations and really going in depth with how all of it was rooted in my childhood and it really put a blockade around me and served as a defense mechanism. So I wouldn't get hurt. That was my entire fear of being hurt being let down by people because Again, you know, you've been done wrong such an early age.

21:40 It's like a tattoo on the mine. May not always can see it, but, you know, it's there and that's what it was for me. It was a reinforcement of don't trust anyone. No one really cares about you continue to push through life. You got this, you can take on this whole big world out there. By yourself and through therapy. Like I said, I had to just said all of that. I had to start by forgiving myself telling myself that I loved me, which was a journey and extending forgiveness, you know, so that family member and two other people around me who I felt.

22:23 As if disappointed me one being my father specifically, I set these expectations for individuals and they didn't meet those expectations. Oh, I don't want anything to do with them. The role that I played. In that was that I failed to communicate, what my expectations were. So how could they ever know what I need from them across all these relationships in order for us to have a fruitful relationship? If I don't ever take the time to inform them of that? So that was my journey of shedding that enemy, so it sounds like from a really young age.

23:07 It was just embedded in your mind that the world is really an unsafe place. You've got you, and that's all you've got, and all she read this, you're this emotionally tightened being, you know, not really, really not encourage the feel, you know, willing to feel because feelings lead to you getting hurt. So, What happened to get you to finally open up and even consider pursuing therapy? I remember being in college. This was my junior year. It was during a summer. I went to the University of Central. Florida, also known as the Harvard of the South go Knights, and I had just completed a test in our testing center. You know, it gives you your gray right away. I passed, I had to be and I was walking from our Student Union on this, this large segment of grass called memory mall. Heading to my car.

24:02 R and I just started hysterically crying. That was very uncharacteristic of the way. I carry myself. It was shocking. I couldn't stop. And it was beyond concerning at that point and to give you a little context as to how I carry myself emotionally. I didn't see my mom cry until I was 17 years old and I kind of looked at her like what's wrong with you? You need to get it together because she never existed. Amplified that. So again, back to being fed these stereotypes.

24:45 I also got a piece of it for my mother because she was so tough and she felt as if you know, I have to raise a man. I'm not one, but I'm going to do certain things to ensure that he knows how to take on adversity in life. And that was one of them. Now, in hindsight, you know, years later. She, and I admire her for doing and she said, you know, that was one of our biggest mistakes not showing you that emotion, and letting, you know, it's okay to feel and it just made you so hard and so serious. And you know, that wasn't the intent. So, I just thought I was incredibly bright. With her, but back to that moment.

25:28 I just couldn't stop myself from crying and I didn't know why I was going through this. I didn't know why I was crying and I just felt utterly embarrassed because people were walking by me like hey, are you okay, you know, I didn't know what to say. At that moment. I didn't have words and in that very. Moment I recognized that I needed help. Like I can't continue to carry everything that's on my shoulders. I can't continue to take on This World by myself. I need help. It is fantastic. That was that that was your decision because for so many men for so many people they'll get to that point of feeling. Bad emotions are bubbling over and they'll choose some sort of practice of addiction to cover it up. Right?

26:25 So that that you sought help. I guess I just, you know, commend you greatly and I tell people this all the time and it's from my own experience and experience with clients, you know, especially Well, that's a I don't feel. I've never motions know, we all have them and they look like they're all going to be felt. And they'll come out when you least expect it and sideways ways. But every emotion you've ever stuff is going to be felt before you die. You can get in front of it right? Do some healing deal with it or you know, or yeah, it'll Bowl you over like your emotions will be felt and then they dry you and I'll say, you know, that was my first experience with Even being open to therapy because, you know, it was taboo. You know, that's not something black people did at that time and I was like, I'm not doing that, but there was a woman in my life who encouraged, she's like, you know what? I recommend you go speaking into there was this incredible one who work at our school named.

27:23 Dr. Jermaine. Graham to this day. I still love her and adore her so much, but she opened her door to hear me out. And that was the difference. I just needed an ear. Someone who was far removed from all these situations. She didn't have a horse in the race and she could be completely objective and she hurt me out and I was like, okay, so maybe therapy isn't so bad. Maybe I should you know taking this a little bit serious at that time. I didn't honestly I would only go speak to her on emergency basis when I got to that cry moment because I didn't cry how fast this is odd.

28:05 This is weird. That's when I felt compelled to go speak with her. It wasn't till later in life. That. I felt the need to. Attend therapy on a regular basis and be consistent with the treatment. Yeah, and going back to your mom. And and, and I've seen that, I was raised by a single mom too. And there can be this. You know, I'm going to overcompensate make sure I'm reason a good man and they buy into the worst stereotypes of what a man means. And so that you just get taught this distorted version of a distortion to begin with but because really, you know, encouraging anyone to not feel is making them less resilient. If you can freely get upset and cry and feel guilty and feel happy and joyous, like, great that you're really going to take life with the punches.

28:58 And you can deal with it that resilience is allowing your emotions to flow. Otherwise you are you doing is prolonging it. Yeah, right. Yeah. I find, you know, when we're willing to feel like, like, you know, that moment you just overcome start crying. And instead of running and hiding, I'm gonna drink this way. I'm going to find a way to just shut this down even harder. Like, no. Well, I'm all right. I'm gonna let this Happen. And it's probably because you're on a college campus that people stopped and said are you all right? Because I've had experiences of just breaking down and bawling and public. And once I remember at an airport just sitting in an airport gate and I'm ballin like noisy, ugly balling, not just a few tears. No one but people avoid me I became invisible. So I was like, there's nothing more invisible Society in the crying man like me and no one, no one, no one's approaching for shit, but maybe as Younger man, you know, you know your peers are more willing but out in public with the masses of our wonderful Society.

29:56 Like nobody gave a shit about me. You said something interesting. There? It made me think about Out. Something Chris Rock said, on one of his stand-up. She said, a man is expected to suffer in silence, in this society. And I had to sit with that. Like, wow, we really are. Yeah. I say the show the time, like, silence kills men. Mmm, right. And we suffered long enough and and suffering ends too often with guys trying to die. Yeah, or the suffering does lead to premature death from physical, something's from, you know, it creates disease. You know, I said every emotion is going to be felt and it can be felt eating an ulcer, right?

30:42 It can be felt, you know, just feeding Decay and disease and you know, we all deserve better than that. Nobody nobody needs to suffer. And so I'm so glad and and proud of you it for you that that you Chose to break that taboo of being silent of keeping it all in and shutting it down because again, it, yeah, it just harms you and it passes on to everyone else, you know, you know at I don't think at the end of your life, you're gonna be like, oh man. I wish they'd just shut up more. That's not indefinitely over and yeah, like that's not a no one. Yeah.

31:23 So at what point for you ask? Did you reach that state of? You know what I can't Do this alone anymore? I don't recommend my path. So for me, I know, I kept everything quite from a really young age like you. I thought the world's unsafe. It's just me, but I decided to check out. It was only after multiple failed attempts to end my life that I realized. All right. Well, I'm not good at this either. So, maybe I'm supposed to be here and there's a better way that I can live my life and that's what started me to open up and see. But yeah, I been offered help. I'd been sent to Is and I will just fly. I was just telling stories up. Everything's great. Yep.

32:05 See you. Bye. Yeah, because again, it's refer anyone you until you are willing to be helped. Nobody can help you what you mentioned, suicide attempts. And I also had my experience with that and it was something that after the fact it was so devastating. I just received it in work. I tried to shoot myself once and to your point. I wasn't good at that either. I remember being at my girlfriend's house at the time. She sleep in the living room at recently purchased a AR-15 why no particular reason.

32:52 And I had just reached my end. I was like, you know, nothing's looking up. I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel and I'm really I'm over, you know, I felt as if my life had been dealt more hurdles and adversity than any victories and wins. So, I remember loading the magazine and I get to the last bullet. Pop it in the lower of the weapon and you know, everything seems fine cock it, and I pulled the trigger.

33:41 Nothing happens. And I start hearing this, funny, click, click click noise, and mind you. I'm sterically crying, but in silence and it's one of those moments and you know, after I came back to my logical State, I looked at the weapon, put the bullet in backwards. So, all twenty nine bullets proceeding that last one we're in perfectly fine. And that was the wake-up. Call that I needed. That was the victory.

34:21 That was the wind like hey, it's not your time. Continue to push forward. You're better than this and you know, I never shared that, I never talked about it, you know, I wrote about in my book and that was a very dark time. Obviously, it was even darker, right? About just recollecting all of those emotions and feeling and trying to convey it through words for people to consume. So you could imagine when you know, the book is released and people around me who have If idea of who I am and what I've been through and you know, you've always been so strong.

35:05 So for them to read that, you know, it's one thing to hear when you can read it over and over again. It really settles into the mind of like man. He's really had his fair share of dark moments. Well, I really appreciate you sharing that here. I know it's not not fun or easy, but I do believe it is necessary and and really serves a higher purpose, right? Much like that bullet being put in wrong served a higher purpose. All right, cool. So, what did prompt you to, to want to write your book to share your story? The book, save my life.

35:52 That's the best way to describe it. Like that was my way of getting all the traumas out and everything. I was experiencing everything that was holding for years because I shouldn't talk about it. What I'm feeling or what I'm going through. That was my out is very therapeutic for me, you know, granted it was difficult at times to, you know, think about those situations again, and the funny thing is we were writing a memoir this still researching it. You know, I've about myself calling my mom and asking certain questions around certain situations that, you know, I was too young to remember and just gaining her perspective and her insight about, you know, those situations specifically when she was pregnant.

36:40 The doctor actually recommended that my parents support me. They said that, you know, if they go through with this pregnancy, See that I'll be confined to a wheelchair for the rest of my life and they will have to take care of me. So it's more of a flight risk of the hazard to go forward and he's like hey, you guys are young, you can try again. So hearing her tell me that because I always knew she was like, yeah, you know, I had complications with her pregnancy, but that's where it stopped. But as I'm finding out more, it's just like, wow. There's been adversity since birth and it just clicked in my mind, that I really do have a purpose because of my mother wasn't strong enough or was it solidified and her faith.

37:27 I wouldn't be here today. Like, I'm not confined to a wheelchair like a, you know, I can walk. I can talk, I can, you know, see here all of the things that you know, most people probably take for granted. I've been blessed with so that very potentially dark. Morbid situation turned into a beautiful blessing. So for me, I just have a gave me a different outlook on life. But you know what, I've been tested from the beginning keeps going was was was that just a shitty doctor was he just misreading things like it. If you've been healthy all your life, like what, what the hell? What do they think was wrong?

38:09 No lie. Andy. I've literally been healthy all my life. I haven't had any major. Sorry, man. Hope your mom got a new doctor. That's awesome. And when we talked earlier, you've actually never read your book. No, it's too hard for me. And I just want to tell everyone watching this and listening. I wrote it. I wrote every single work, but for me and I went through numerous drafts and reviews and so forth, but I've never sat down and read it from top to bottom. Even in my, you know, editing process a chapter, at a time, go through. But as far as reading and top and bottom, it's hard.

38:52 It's just as difficult. Like a lot of those situations. I've moved past. I found some resolved there, but, you know, some of those situations. It's just too painful to sit there with however, I made a made a commitment to myself, you know. When I decide to bring children to this world, I promised myself that I would read it before they're born because at some point once they get older, I want to be able to give that to them. So they can have a full scope of who their father was at one point in his life to understand that. Hey Daddy is human. He's not perfect. He's not, you know, don't put me on his pedestal I made mistakes because I think that's very powerful and my job. I've never raised kids.

39:37 So this is just me speculating here. I just think that it's important to give them your failures and paint the whole Collective picture as to what life is about who you are and don't Shield them from the privilege of life, you know, do it and tablespoons because you don't want them to grow up, you know, paranoid or anything like that, but just have to understand that hate life will test you. It's on you to continuously get up and keep going. And again as long as you get up and keep going if Or my perspective. Well, your life had no failures because you always tip going exactly. Well, good. I hope and now you you wrote your Memoir. You're in your mid-20s when you wrote this. Yeah, so I started that book.

40:24 When I was 21. I finished it at 25, and it came out on my 26th, birthday. All right, so that's pretty young for a memoir. So, do you do, you do you aspire to have so many more? Adventures and winds. That they'll be a part two of your story. There's definitely gonna be a part two, but way later in the class, I need a break, you know, I say that because it's you know, I've heard that frequently like man you wrote A Memoir, you're only in your twenties. Like how why? But for me it just spoke to they just don't have an understanding of who I am or what I've been through. You know, I even had close friends and families like you writing a book about your life, whatever you've done.

41:08 But then when they They were able to sit with it. And I just it's like, I get it now, you need it to do this, and I'm happy that I took that leap of faith to go about writing that book and incorporating, the wrongness and all of the traumatic experiences. Without fear, like, I truly feel brave for doing that and you are so good on you. So, you know, you've had your, your physical run-ins with the police. You you've been in prison and there's one chapter in your book called called thug life. So. Please tell me what thug life means. So thug, life is an acronym by the late great, Tupac Shakur, and it means the hate you give the hate you give little infants fucks everyone.

42:02 And what that means is that level of conditioning that you give our children and you continuously feed them that hatred of self and not being accepted in this larger society. it's going to manifest into them and it's going to come out in a destructive facet. And that's what Thug Life represents. So I wanted you to share that because I never knew that seen it. I never realized was an acronym seen like at no freaking idea. So I imagine that would you already of other middle-aged white guys. Wait with everyone. There's no freaking idea that that was narrated him and it's like why do you want to be thugs?

42:45 I don't get it. Why? What's no? And again it that this almost the the as groups have their for black of a better term to no secret. Image, it creates that more separation some like, oh, that should be. Oh, wow. That's that's a great freaking acronym. And it is right. Yeah. I totally get it and shit. An interesting thing about it, that was actually his take on a movement. The intent for thug life was to be like a new Black Panther Party, you know, his mother wasn't an amazing Panther. He came from that ilk of revolutionaries. So for him. That was his wave and that was his responsibility within the movement thug life. So he was much more political than than white Society seeing it.

43:35 Oh, it's, you know, thanks to gangster, wannabe. More of that more that stuff and it's just Old Glory glamorizing crime. He was really, really, there was a higher purpose. Cool. No, since you ever read the book at one point, you also taught in this chapter on women and you say that you cheated on every We girlfriend or women that you ever cared about him because you sit, you said that it was because you didn't have any respect for a woman's worth. When or should I say when, when, or if did you realize that wasn't wasn't helping you? Or the, I definitely realized. Let's be clear that I realized that when I had went through a terrible heartbreak, and, you know, relationship. I had recently moved to the Washington DC area. And that's when I really Got to sit with myself and it just gave me a time to what I consider a world of mirrors. I was surrounded by myself.

44:44 And I couldn't escape the images being reflected back to me, you know, and at that time, the report images because the way I had exemplify myself, you know, through the course of how I treat it women. And for me, I just viewed it. As you know, this is karma for all of the wrong that you've done, the lies that you told the selfishness that you exhibited. Because for me, it is all about what I wanted and when I wanted it and I think there's this huge misconception that the way that a man treats his mother. Other his sister is how you treat his, that's not true. Who. So let's just get that out there. That's not true. Because I was raised by my mother, had a great respect from my mother. Don't get me wrong, you know, we had our spats, but she didn't raise me to treat women in that faster.

45:30 So, the fact that I demonstrate at myself that way, it just spoke to the lack of respect that I have for their gentleness and them as human beings first and foremost, but I say a lot of it. Reflected back to what I saw from men around me growing up. Men around me really perpetuated, you know, having multiple women at their disposal and you know, it was in the music that I listened to my peers. Also participated in such actions. So for me, oh, this is what I'm supposed to do. But again, you know, you get a little bit older, you leave this Trail of Tears and all of this destruction only to run right into it when it happens to you.

46:21 And at that point I say, you know what, this isn't right, you know, like, I made women feel like this. Yeah, I gotta chill out because it didn't feel good. Good. Hey, it's good to recognize that and yeah, you know, I share often. We Can't change anything until we're aware of it. Yeah. So until you like feel it, notice it. You can have a bit of empathy. You see, you know, via the effects that you haven't people the and you experience the effects that other people's actions have on you and you and you don't like it, then you can realize, oh, I'm not gonna do that anymore, but I wish male you've, you've gone through a lot in your, in your, you know, still young life. And you know, you've learned the healing and the power of sharing.

47:10 Your story and and the power and healing of therapy and forgiving yourself. So I wonder you know, you've gone through the stereotypes living different ways for you. What does it mean to be a man today? Responsible. Taking being accountable, you know for the choices that you make as a man and setting an example, you know for everyone around you. And that's the big. Those are the biggest factors and just exemplifying yourself as being discipline discipline is the key to everything. Because if you are able to put One Foot In Front Of Another, there's always going to be for Progress. No matter what obstacles you walk into is great to walk into them instead of falling to them.

48:13 And is there one thing? It might be one of those things or something else. Entirely. Is there. Is there something you wish more men knew? That is okay to feel like that it just that simple. It's okay to express what you're going through. I think it's imperative that you find individuals that are emotionally intelligent enough and equipped with the tools to give you that space to act as a sounding board and just encourage you to do more of it. And I just really feel like that, you know. Every man needs that couldn't agree more.

48:53 What you looking forward to? I'm looking forward to getting a haircut. It's a boy. I'm working on a book right now. And this one is completely different than my first one. My first one being the Memoir this one. It's Untitled right now. So Gob still working through that but it's just a polar opposite of my first book. This one is actually fiction and it's going to be a series. I can give you that first, but I'm excited for it because it's a new challenge. I'm someone who is a thrill. Junkie, it made Italy.

49:36 And for me, my Thrills are associated with overcoming challenges. And, you know, for someone else that may seem like, or that may appear as achieving a goal. But for me, it's like, okay. I've never done that before. I'm going to go do it. So that's the thrill for me. Like, okay cool. I'm going to do this. I'm going to kill it. So I'm excited. It's different. I had to take a step back from writing to go do some research and understand the craft of fiction writing because it's a polar opposite. From again, you know, the nonfiction and the the Memoir Lane, so I had to take some time to research some of the people that I consider our greats in that space.

50:21 So what's the best way people can? Follow you connect with. You see what you're up to Instagram. It's Ishmael is ma e. L-- underscore Brown, BR o WN & Twitter. It's Ishmael underscore Brown and the number three cool. And where can people find your book? Is? It is available, everywhere. It is available on Amazon, is also available on my website, which is Ishmael brown.com. And that link is also in my bio on Instagram and We're cool. I really appreciate you. Sharing your book with the world and your time today here with us, fucking take care of yourself.

51:04 Be safe, where we going fucking heartbreaking that to like, really say that and mean, it's so much to black men, a meeting. But damn it. Yeah, because your New York City, right? Yes. Yeah. All right. Keep your head down, man. All right, and you shouldn't play with fuck that footnote. Sorry, Put Your Head Up, Put Your Head Up. Like way I'm gonna want to just talk about not shrinking and am trying to shrink it. All right, just be safe. All right, you know how to do it. I think you visit real midfielder dog. Everyone will have links for all the Ishmael has contacts and books and ways for you to get in touch with him and follow him and and encouraged him to have enough Adventures for that. That Memoir part 2, at some point, that was going to be way better with a more boxy.

51:55 And thank you for joining us. Wherever you're listening to real men, feel give a like a subscription, share a review with always appreciated. And until next time, don't suffer in silence, talk to someone reach out to me. Don't have someone to talk to or buggies running. They'll talk you to be. Well, everybody. Thank you for listening to real men. Field contact us at real men, feel at gmail.com. Join the private, real men field, Facebook group at Book.com slash groups / real men. Field, learn more about author coach and Keeler, Andy, Grant at the ante. Grants.com., If you enjoyed this episode, it would help us greatly.

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