Navigating Grief: A Father's Journey Through Love, Loss, and Legacy

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer, Andy Grant.

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You can visit theandygrant.com
to learn more about how I might

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serve you.
Real Men Feel reminds men that

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the human beings and have the
right to experience and express

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all of their emotions.
We have conversations that most

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men are not having, but that all
men and the women who love them

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can benefit from.
My guest today is Jason Tuttle.

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Jason is a former stay at home
parent and married father of two

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kids with multiple physical and
cognitive disabilities.

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After losing his 15 year old
special needs son in January of

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2022, Jason decided to create
Letters to Zachary, a project of

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eternal love and legacy, to
share his feelings and grief

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while also helping others to see
a glimpse into the male mind and

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how it grieves.
Jason is very open and

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vulnerable in sharing his
emotional pain and grief.

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He offers insights for how women
can best support grieving men,

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the emotion that most men
typically lead with in times of

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grief, and has advice for men
dealing with deep loss.

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Let's do it.
Hello Jason, welcome to REAL Men

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Feel.
Hello, thank you for having me.

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So you've got A and it's kind of
what I love for real men feel a

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man shares his journey and how
he's being of service to the

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world.
And you are certainly doing

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that.
So let's just jump right into

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it.
Growing up, did you know?

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Did you always want to be
married and have a family?

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Yeah, that was that was a a
bucket list item for me.

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I always knew that I kind of
wanted to have kind of the

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traditional nuclear family, you
know, the three kids, the the

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dog, that kind of thing.
It was always something I

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wanted, that more so than what I
really knew what I wanted to do

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in life.
What were your earliest hints

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that your journey and your role
was going to be different than

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than that ideal?
I've for as far as I can

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remember, I've been told I work
really well with kids.

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And even when I was like in my
teenage years, people always

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told me that I acted older than
my age, almost as if I was an

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old soul if you will.
And, you know, even 131415

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people always thought I was much
older than what I was.

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Now nowadays people go, no, you
look like you've got a baby

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face.
And I'm just like, really,

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nobody else has ever told me
that.

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But yeah, I've, I've, I've
always been told that I, I've

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been kind of older than what I
was.

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And so I knew that was something
that I definitely wanted to

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pursue.
So you you were a full time stay

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at home dad for for two kids.
Yes.

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And and kids with with serious
medical issues.

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So how did dealing with all
that?

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How did that reshape your
perspective and even identity as

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a father?
We learn sometimes in life, life

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throws you a curveball to
backtrack just a little bit.

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When we found out that my wife
was pregnant, which would would

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have been with our son at the
time, she found it was actually

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her hairdresser that that
actually called it because she

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went in to get her hair done.
The hairdresser goes, you look

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kind of green, are you pregnant?
And she goes, well, we've been

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trying, but I don't know.
And she made her assistant go

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out and get a pregnancy test.
And almost immediately it came

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up.
And so she called it.

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But my wife came home, we talked
about, we were excited about it

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and I'll never forget it.
She goes, well, what if we have

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a child that's got like medical
disabilities?

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And my response was, well, if we
have one, then we're going to

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have one.
We'll just deal with it as it

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comes because I personally don't
believe in alternative methods

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for those that may not want
that.

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And so the joke that we, that
we've gone back and forth on

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many occasions has been, well,
apparently God hurt us because

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he obliged us with two of them.
And you know, but to get back to

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what you were asking about,
remind me of the question again.

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My brain just went blank.
No, you're fine.

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So yeah, so, well, let's get
you, you became a full time stay

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at home dad.
Yes.

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So, so first, like, why, why,
why did you take that role?

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Well, right after my son was
born, even though we knew of all

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the, the one issue that was
confirmed and all the

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possibilities, I actually worked
for probably two more years or

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three more years while he was
really young.

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And fortunately for me at the
first school I was at, because

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my degree is in physical
education, I taught elementary

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school PE.
And I was the quote, the quote

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UN quote class that they all
wanted to come to, which was

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great for me 'cause I rarely had
discipline issues.

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But one of the parents of one of
the several kids I had at school

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who lived literally in a
neighborhood like a stone's

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throw from my school, said that
she would watch him during the

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day.
So I wouldn't necessarily have

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to put him in like a traditional
daycare because of all of his

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issues.
And so she did that.

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And it got to a point where like
my parents watched them.

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And the reason why I left
education was that last year I

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was in education.
It got to a point where we were

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in and out of the hospital so
much that I was, I'd burn

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through all my personal time on
my sick leave.

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I don't think I used FM Lai
might have, but so we got to a

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point where I was essentially
working for free.

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And I was, I'll be honest, while
I was teaching, I had so much

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going on at home that it was
starting to show up at work.

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Like just the stress and just
the weight of just everything we

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were dealing with.
And it finally got to a point

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where like I talked to my
principal and I said, what would

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be your thoughts if I decided to
resign?

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And that this was literally the
middle of the year.

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And she said, well, she said,
you know, I don't want you to

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leave.
But she goes, I understand

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should you want to.
And for those that don't know

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it, it it, for those of us that
work in the educational industry

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system, whatever you call it, if
you get into a contract year and

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then decide for whatever reason,
no matter how noble it is, and

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you decide to resign in the
middle of the year, basically

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you get blackballed from that
county 'cause they do not like

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you breaking contracts, period.
And I asked her, I said if I

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resign 'cause it was January, I
said if I resign, am I going to

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get blackballed from the county?
And she gave me her principal

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answer, if you will, oh, no, no,
no.

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And I knew in my head the moment
I walked out that door, I'd

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never work in that county again.
But he was in another hospital a

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ton.
And I finally just, I called my

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wife from the office that day
and I said, hey, we've talked

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about this.
What are your thoughts?

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And she basically came back and
said, well, we can never really

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be prepared for.
We really just got to kind of

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RIP the Band-Aid off and just
see how it goes.

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And so that was a Wednesday.
By that Friday, I had my

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resignation on her desk.
I was driving, I drove off and

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left.
Now, that first month when I

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didn't have a paycheck, I kind
of was pulling my hair out

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going, what did I do?
But I mean, we learned to work

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with it.
And that's kind of how it came

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to where I became a stay at home
parent because even though I

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didn't have that income, we were
actually kind of saving money

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and time and stress and all that
with me being at home.

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And then my wife became the
breadwinner and started making

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wonderfully doing what she was
doing.

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That kind of made-up the
difference.

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So tell me a bit of of what
Zachary's challenges were and

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what daily life was like for
you.

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So he was born with a rare
condition called Eagle Barrett

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syndrome.
It's also affectionately known

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as Prune belly syndrome.
At the time he was born it was

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one in 40,000 births that it
would possibly occur.

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So the easiest way to explain it
without getting all technical

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into it is at this point doctors
don't know the official what

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starts.
If they do know it's a kind of

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AGI issue.
They do know it's related to the

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kidney.
My son was born with one kidney

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that did sustain some damage
while in utero.

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That is a part of the prune
belly.

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Also a part of the prune belly
is he was born with an

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abnormally large bladder that
did not get the sensation to go

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to the bathroom on its own.
Meaning I would at least the

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first several years of his life,
I had to give the catheter every

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four hours.
And if I didn't prune bellied

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kids or Eagle Barrett syndrome
kids are susceptible to urinary

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tract infections.
And the reason for that, for

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those that may not know is when
you the fluid that's in your

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bladder has sediment in it and
if you don't get it out, it's

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that sediment that either
irritates or infects and that's

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what causes a urinary tract
infection.

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So every time I'd get drain his
bladder, I would try to make

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sure I got as much of his fluid
out of his bladder as possible.

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Now some Eagle Barrett syndrome
kids go have horrendously tough

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times with them.
My son, on the other hand,

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because I was so proactive about
it, I think we had three or four

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urinary tract infections his
entire life just because I was

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so just like, you're not going
to get this.

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So one kidney sustained in utero
and abnormally large spider.

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The big issue that everybody
notices is my son was born

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without abdominal muscle.
He had none of it.

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So like no, no front muscle, no
side muscle, no any lowered and

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above, none of it.
Like I could lay him on the

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floor and from the outside, the
only thing between the outside

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world and his organs was the
skin in the white fascia that

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holds it together.
That's it.

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And like I could put him on the
floor and from the outside I

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could literally take my finger
and touch a part of his stomach

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and go, well, there's the large
intestine, there's the small

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intestine, there's his stomach,
there's his kidney.

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There's a, it literally like one
of those biology class dummies

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that are that stand up on the
front table that everybody looks

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at when you're in there.
I could literally point out all

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of that.
All of that that I just

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described was the actual prune
belly or Eagle Barrett syndrome

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itself.
The big secondary issues that

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I'm mostly dealt with.
His lungs were normally formed

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and he could breathe normally.
However, when you or I get a

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pneumonia or a bronchitis or
even today a COVID kind of style

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illness, because we've got the
abdominal muscle, we've got kind

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of that foundation or that floor
where we can build pressure on

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to get that deep cough out.
Well, he didn't have that.

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So I learned very, very quickly
that if he got a chest cold, if

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I couldn't get to it fast
enough, we were going to the

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hospital and we were going to
get admitted.

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I mean, almost inevitably.
And literally the 1st 5 or 6

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years of his life, we were in
and out of it.

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And one of the ICU rooms at my
local Children's Hospital every

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six months because of it.
Now once we finally really kind

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of understood it, it's not in
here anymore, but I'm like

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actually in the his room and on
one of the other walls.

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I used to have this large
shelving unit and I had like 6

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home respiratory related
machines that when I heard his

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cough I'd give the stethoscope
out.

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I'd listen to his chest and see
if I could hear rattling.

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If I did from that point I would
put the hill ROM vest machine

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on, which is what cystic
fibrosis patients use.

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It would basically blow up and
release a beats on the chest to

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kind of loosen it up.
I would then go to an

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encephalator, which is basically
a mass that would go over his

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like his nose and his mouth.
It would, I hate to say

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violently, but it was very
quickly would blow air in there

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and immediately suck it back
out.

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It wasn't a pleasant experience.
And it, what that would do is it

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would kind of suck that up into
his esophagus, up into the like

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the base of his throat.
The next step I would do is I

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would have a suction machine
where I would take a flexible

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catheter, go in his nose, wrap
it around his sinuses, go down

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into his, the back of his throat
and suction it all out.

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And then after that was done, I
would take a nebulizer that

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everybody that has kids knows
what that is and give him like a

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breathing treatment.
And I would do that every four

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hours while I was at home.
And if I couldn't get on top of

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00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,520
it, I was going to the hospital
and we were getting admitted.

225
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,840
All of that was related to just
the Eagle Barrett syndrome, the

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00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:40,200
prune belly.
So daily life sounds like you

227
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:41,520
were kind of turned into a
doctor.

228
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,160
You were just full time medical
care.

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00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,280
Yeah, I I've said many times, I
never thought in my wildest

230
00:12:47,560 --> 00:12:51,680
imagination of what I would have
to learn about respiratory

231
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:55,320
related issues, GI related
issues, neurological related

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00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,600
issues and a couple of other
areas.

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00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:04,160
With all that going on, like,
was it ever good?

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00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:11,720
Were there moments like.
Yes, there were even in the, I

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00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,720
will say people always ask me
about it and I would say

236
00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,480
probably the first four or five
years are really stressful for

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00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:23,560
me just because up until about
that fifth year thing is

238
00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:26,680
secondary issues would pop up
that I had no idea were going to

239
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,920
pop up.
So by about Year 5 or 6, I'd

240
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,280
seen basically everything.
So after that point, once it

241
00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,480
popped up, I didn't freak out
about it because I I'd seen it

242
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,240
before.
But up until that point, every

243
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,160
time someone would come up and
just like, what's this?

244
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,800
How do I handle, what do I do?
Do I need to go to the hospital?

245
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,440
That kind of thing.
But in between there, yeah,

246
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,000
there were a lot of happy
moments.

247
00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:55,640
My son was the most laid back,
happy child, even through the

248
00:13:55,640 --> 00:14:00,520
difficult life that he led in
the entire 15 years he was

249
00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,880
around.
I think he cried twice.

250
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,640
He was always happy.
In fact, the story I tell people

251
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:11,120
is there was a time I went to
go, like give him a catheter.

252
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,920
And for most men, if you tell
them that you've got to give

253
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:16,880
them a catheter, they kind of
look at you and go, oh, what are

254
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,400
you doing with that going down
there?

255
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:22,200
And but my son, we had done it
so much that this was just daily

256
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:23,720
life.
And so he would literally get on

257
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,200
the floor.
He'd laid back, He'd put his

258
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,920
hands behind his head and look
at me like, well, old man, let's

259
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,800
get this show on the road.
I got things to do and it even

260
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,960
when I would like insert things
and all that, he would not

261
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,080
flinch.
Nothing.

262
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,440
I mean, he would.
He was just, he was used to it.

263
00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,600
And how old was Zachary when you
had your daughter?

264
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:52,720
He was three, I believe because
we always knew, even before all

265
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,360
the medical issues, we always
knew that we wanted to have more

266
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:58,480
than one.
In fact, when my wife before we

267
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:01,880
got married, she point blank
came up to me and said I want 4

268
00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,080
kids.
And it from a man's perspective,

269
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,880
I went, well, let's have the
first one and then we'll talk.

270
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,520
I mean, it wasn't much of A
stretch because I always, up

271
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,240
until the medical issues, I
always kind of knew I wanted 3.

272
00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,200
So going to a fourth one wasn't
much of A stretch.

273
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,800
It was more the fact that how
blunt she was about it.

274
00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:26,240
And I was just like, hello, He
was two or three, I think,

275
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,120
'cause she's two years behind
him.

276
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,960
And as you can imagine, when we
told our families that we were

277
00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,040
going to try for another one,
you can imagine the backlash we

278
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,840
got 'cause they're just like,
you have all these medical

279
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,720
issues and why would you want to
add to that?

280
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,480
And I, I told both sides, I
said, look, I'm a researcher and

281
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,920
I have researched and I've
talked to people till I'm blue

282
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,440
in the face.
And they have all said, just

283
00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:52,600
because you have these issues
does not guarantee that you're

284
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:54,400
going to have a child that has
any of them.

285
00:15:55,280 --> 00:16:00,600
There's a small chance, but it's
so small that it's not worth not

286
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,200
doing it should you want to have
another child.

287
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,560
And so that that's kind of the
resistance we came across.

288
00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,920
Yeah, I, I mean, I that that's
my first thought too.

289
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:11,960
Like, why?
Why would you do this to

290
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:12,960
yourself?
Yeah.

291
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:17,720
But was it just again that
innate desire for for family

292
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,480
and.
Well, we, we always knew that we

293
00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,200
wanted our son to have a brother
or sister, not to be an only

294
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,320
child.
I'm one of three.

295
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,080
My, my wife's one of three.
Like she's a cradle Catholic

296
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,040
from the Northeast.
So they're all like one of

297
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,200
eight.
I mean, they come out of the

298
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,000
woodwork when we go up there.
So we always knew we wanted to

299
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,800
have at least more than one.
And honestly, from my daughter,

300
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:48,120
when she was born, she was
considered the normal one, as

301
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,880
crazy as that sounds.
And the reason why we say that

302
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,280
was because when she was born,
we were basing her development

303
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,400
on our son.
Now, what we found out six

304
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,320
months in was she was delayed.
And like, I talked to the

305
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,160
pediatrician who actually had a
special needs, has a special

306
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,319
needs child, and I said, well,
why do you think she's delayed?

307
00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:11,640
And she said, well, if you're
basing her development on your

308
00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,359
son, she's going to look normal.
But based on normal standards,

309
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:20,760
your daughter's delayed.
And it was at six months that

310
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,680
the proverbial snowball started
rolling downhill for them.

311
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,400
And at the end of the day, once
we had both of them, my son was

312
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,480
born with Eagle Barrett
syndrome, the rare condition.

313
00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,440
However, both of them were born,
my son was born with a rare

314
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,040
condition, but all the other
issues, they were born identical

315
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,240
to each other.
And we still don't know why.

316
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:45,320
Both of them were born with
neurological delays, severe

317
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:50,040
delays, meaning they both
function about 7 to 9 years old,

318
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,400
no matter their age.
Both of them were born with

319
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,240
epilepsy, meaning of the six
different kinds of seizures I've

320
00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,280
seen, four of them in my house.
Both of them were non verbal.

321
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,560
Both of them could walk with
assistance, but basically needed

322
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:09,960
a wheelchair to get around.
And then as of two years ago or

323
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:15,680
three years ago, genetics seems
to believe that my daughter and

324
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,200
even my son, even though now
he's passed, may have another

325
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,360
rare condition.
And based on her comments, she

326
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:27,280
seems to think we're not only #1
for her, we're #1 worldwide.

327
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,320
And so we're still waiting on to
see if anything comes to

328
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,240
fruition out of that.
So in the first probably five

329
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,400
years of our marriage, we had
two kids born 2 years apart

330
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:44,040
having identical issues.
So your stay at home dad with

331
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,080
two children and to say special
needs just sounds like the

332
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,560
grossest understatement to
describe anyone's family.

333
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,480
But how does that and maybe you
don't have time to to even have

334
00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,600
thoughts on this or realize in
the moment, but how did that

335
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,600
change your perspective and
identity as a father?

336
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,360
Now I can look back on it and
realize I was in a state of

337
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:10,200
grieving, although I didn't
realize it in the beginning.

338
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,160
I was grieving the life I
thought we were going to have

339
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:19,160
versus the life we got.
So for example, as you can see

340
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,920
here and from other podcasts, I
can run my mouth, I have no

341
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:25,200
problem talking.
But my son was non verbal.

342
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,320
I taught physical education,
thought my son might get into

343
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,760
sports.
My son could do no sports

344
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,240
because of his issues.
And so there were a lot of

345
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:38,480
things, at least in that aspect
that were hard hitting to me.

346
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,520
And like one of the things I
always wanted, which

347
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:45,440
unfortunately I never got was
even though I knew my son was

348
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,000
non verbal, there were he did
say a few words in his life.

349
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,960
And all I ever wanted was to
hear him say dad at least once.

350
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,920
And he never did.
He said mom once and said

351
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,960
something else once but never
said that.

352
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,440
And that was especially when he
passed.

353
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,080
That was a really hard pill to
swallow for me.

354
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,760
Even though I mean, I, I, you
could see in pictures just what

355
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,920
he thought of both his mother
and myself based on his looks at

356
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,800
us and kind of the non verbal
cues.

357
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,680
But you know it that that was
just a tough pill to swallow for

358
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,520
me.
And so you, you mentioned that

359
00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,840
he passed when he was 15.
Yes.

360
00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,080
Was, was that a surprise?
Did you know it was coming?

361
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:34,560
It was actually sudden and
unexpected, so I'll try to make

362
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:40,680
this as simplistic as possible.
So of all the issues that my son

363
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,200
had, I knew all the different
characteristics and what to look

364
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,320
out for is should something pop
up.

365
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,120
Three days before he passed,
they came home from school.

366
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:52,560
I did my normal routine.
I got him off the bus, got him

367
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,000
in their lounge where, you know,
gave snacks and all that kind of

368
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,120
stuff.
We'd lounge together.

369
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:59,400
I made dinner.
You know, he ate like a horse

370
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,760
that night and usually in the
evening I would put my daughter

371
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,120
to bed 1st and then I would give
him like about an hour

372
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,760
afterwards, just give someone on
one time with his mother myself,

373
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:14,240
'cause I love my daughter, but
she can be a lot of times.

374
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,560
And my son, even though he
couldn't talk some nights, he

375
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,720
would give me this look of I
need a break from her.

376
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,920
And so that's where that kind of
started.

377
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,520
But so that evening, we brought
him into the living, into our

378
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,120
bedroom, and typically we would
lay on either side of the bed.

379
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,000
We'd put him in the middle and
he'd roll back and forth and

380
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,120
goof off with us as we were
watching TV.

381
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:38,360
We got ready to put him to bed.
My wife went to go use the

382
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:40,840
electric toothbrush, which he
liked because of his sensory

383
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,120
issues.
And Torzan, he threw up a little

384
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:46,840
bit and I looked at my wife and
she looked at me and I said,

385
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,640
well, maybe you hit the like the
gag reflex and something was in

386
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,760
there and it just came up.
Didn't strike me as all, we put

387
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,400
him to bed that night and he's
always been a really good

388
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,560
sleeper.
Well, that night he was up and

389
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,640
down most of the night, which is
unusual for him.

390
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,240
And so the next morning I told
my wife, I said I'm going to let

391
00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:06,880
his teacher know, I'm going to
keep him home.

392
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,080
I don't know.
I said he may have like a 24

393
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,240
hour virus, which is what he got
in many times in his life.

394
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,600
I said he's just got to work his
way through it.

395
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,000
There's not a whole lot we can
do other than just to watch him.

396
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,440
And so we got my daughter on the
bus that day.

397
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,600
I told his teacher she's like,
great, fine, we'll see you the

398
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,600
next day.
And then that day, he absolutely

399
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,360
refused to take a nap.
He didn't really want to eat and

400
00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:32,160
drink that day.
And like, I looked at my wife

401
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,480
and I said, you know, if I'm not
feeling well, if I don't want to

402
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,680
eat and drink, that's fine.
I said I'm OK with him not doing

403
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,520
this for a day.
I said, but if he starts doing

404
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,240
this tomorrow, it's going to
catch my attention that

405
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,360
something's not right.
Because typically even though

406
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:51,400
you're sick and all that, you
know, you give it a day 24 hours

407
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,400
ish.
And then at least after that

408
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,800
point, you'll start at least
wanting to drink something

409
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,840
because you just haven't had
anything in that length of time.

410
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,880
So he didn't want to take a nap.
He didn't want to lay down.

411
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,520
And he was, I wouldn't say he
was cranky, but he just, he just

412
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,840
looked uncomfortable.
So I, I, that evening I did the

413
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,000
same thing.
I, in fact, I put him to bed the

414
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,400
same time as his sister and he
immediately got quiet and I just

415
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:21,280
looked at my wife and I said,
well, he's just got to be

416
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,600
exhausted because he was up all,
literally all night last night.

417
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,720
I said he was up all day.
So he's been up all like 30

418
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,080
something hours, so he's got to
be exhausted.

419
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,040
I bet you and I said I'm going
to keep him home.

420
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,080
Let's see that that first night
was Wednesday, that was Thursday

421
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,640
and I said, well, I'm going to
keep him home on Friday.

422
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,280
I said should.
I said at least at that point if

423
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,640
he's not feeling any better,
we've got the weekend to recover

424
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,280
and we can go back on Monday.
I said, or if something should,

425
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,680
if it should anything change,
we're home and I can take him to

426
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,400
the hospital or should we need
to.

427
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,960
OK, wonderful.
So that Friday morning we get my

428
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,400
daughter up and going, get her
on the bus and I walk into his

429
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,000
room.
And typically when I walk into

430
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,280
his room, he's happy and
excited.

431
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,560
He's bouncing on his bed, he's
clapping his hands because you

432
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,560
know, I'm getting him up and
he's wanting to get his day

433
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,200
started.
So I walk in here, which I'm in

434
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:19,680
his room and I open the door and
he's awake with his eyes open.

435
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,200
And I wouldn't say he's
lethargic, but he he just kind

436
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,080
of looks at me.
He doesn't really bounce,

437
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,240
doesn't really clap his hands
and that kind of catches my

438
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,080
attention.
And I walk over to the side.

439
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,520
I off the of the bed that I get
him up on.

440
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,680
And I notice he's got a dark
green streak coming out the side

441
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,920
of his mouth from where he'd
been laying.

442
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,440
And I look at it and look at my
wife.

443
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,280
And I said, I don't know a ton
about the human body, but what I

444
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,920
do know is the only thing dark
green in your body that would

445
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,960
come out of your body's bile and
why is it coming out of his

446
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,880
mouth?
I said, this is not good.

447
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,800
So I get him out of bed and he's
kind of floppy, like he can't

448
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,120
hold himself up.
And that didn't really strike me

449
00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:00,360
just because there'd been some
respiratory stays where he was

450
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:01,760
that way.
And I thought, well, maybe he's

451
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,720
really getting sick and maybe I
need to take him to the

452
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,640
hospital.
I take him out in the living

453
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,080
room and I go through kind of my
mental medical protocol and I

454
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,160
listen to his chest.
There's nothing in there.

455
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,000
I Cath his bladder.
I don't get a whole lot out.

456
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,360
I look at all the other signs
and the only thing that stands

457
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:21,760
out to me is because of his
Eagle Barrett syndrome, his

458
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,760
midsection is very pliable,
almost spongy because there's no

459
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,760
abdominal muscle there.
And I go and feel it and it's

460
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,520
literally like cinder block wall
rock hard.

461
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:35,760
And I, I look at my wife and I
go, this is off.

462
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,160
Something's not right right
here.

463
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,000
And I and I don't know what it
is.

464
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,600
And so we're sitting there and
in the, in the moment, I thought

465
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,040
it was like 30 minutes, but in
it was more like 2 minutes.

466
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,480
But in the two minutes I was
there in my brain going, what do

467
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,240
I want to do?
What do I want to do?

468
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:53,960
It was just a hunch.
I went, I'm taking him to the

469
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,200
Children's Hospital.
I don't know what this is.

470
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,600
I need to get a professional to
look at this.

471
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,760
So we get him dressed, I get him
in his wheelchair, I get him in

472
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,880
the van and I do like 90 miles
an hour up to the Children's

473
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,360
Hospital.
And we get up there, we get into

474
00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:11,280
the parking day, I get his chair
and I go to get him out of the

475
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,880
van and he's really floppy at
this point.

476
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,960
And this catches my attention.
So I get him in his chair and he

477
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,160
looks like he's like falling
asleep and waking up almost in

478
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:23,880
and out of consciousness kind of
thing.

479
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,080
And I'm trying to keep him awake
'cause I don't know what's going

480
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,280
on with him.
Kind of like, you never want a

481
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,160
person that gets a concussion to
fall asleep right afterwards.

482
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:37,480
And what I didn't realize in the
in the in the moment, at that

483
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,760
point, from the time I drove him
from my house to the Children's

484
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,880
Hospital till we got in the ER,
he was literally dying right in

485
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,080
front of me.
I had no idea in the moment, but

486
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,280
I get him in the chair.
I get him up to the ER and I

487
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,560
skipped the line like the right
like I need medical attention

488
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,920
and before and like the security
guard comes over to me as if to

489
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,040
say, you need to get line.
And he walks over to me and I

490
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,480
go, I don't think he's
breathing.

491
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,480
I need help immediately.
And so he gets the attention of

492
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,320
the nurse.
She looks at him and she goes

493
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,320
follow me.
Now I've been in this this

494
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,760
hospital 100 times and this is
the first time I've ever gone at

495
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,120
a full run through the ER
waiting room into the ER to a

496
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:22,360
trauma room.
I mean like as fast as we can

497
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:25,240
go.
So we get into a trauma room.

498
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,520
I instinctively like unbuckled
from his chair.

499
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,120
I pick him up, I put him on the
Gurney that's in there and I

500
00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:34,640
back out of the way in hopes
they'll let me stay in there cuz

501
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,440
he's non verbal.
He can't tell them what's going

502
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,960
on.
And so I'm hoping that they'll

503
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,880
let me stay there so I can at
least say, hey, this is what's

504
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,520
going on.
This is why I brought him here.

505
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,920
Luckily, there's a trauma room
right next to us at the doors

506
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,480
are open, it's empty and I back
off in there and they let me

507
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,240
stay in there.
They immediately cut off all of

508
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,640
his clothes.
And the first thing that they

509
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,240
did that struck me as they went
over to his knee, got this straw

510
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,400
and literally drilled into his
knee just immediately like that.

511
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,120
And later I, I said, what did
you drill into his knee?

512
00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:10,840
And I said, I said, I've never
seen that before.

513
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,240
And they said, well, that's a
port to get into his system.

514
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,760
When we have patients like this,
we try to get antibiotics or

515
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,320
just something in the system to
see if we can help combat

516
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:20,760
whatever we think we're dealing
with.

517
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,040
And it caught my attention
because they gave him no pain

518
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,600
meds and like, he did not
flinch.

519
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:31,160
And I and I tell people, I said
if you had someone drill into

520
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,800
your bone, into your leg with no
pain meds, you would have come

521
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,560
off the table.
It would have been

522
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,160
excruciatingly painful.
And he never flinched.

523
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,800
So they cut off his clothes.
They immediately intubate him,

524
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:45,960
like putting the tube in him to
get oxygen in him.

525
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,880
And they put like all the
things, put the monitors on him

526
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,320
and they're looking at him and
like the head of yard dot comes

527
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:53,720
in there and she bark shorters
at him.

528
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,640
And like 2 minutes in, they
start chest compressions, doing

529
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,600
CPR.
The heady Ardot comes over to me

530
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,960
in the other room and she goes
down to the minute, how long has

531
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,440
he been this way?
And I said, you know, X number

532
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,280
of minutes plus or minus like 2
minutes.

533
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,320
She goes back over and bark
shorters at and then she walks

534
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,480
back over to me and says to the
to the best of your

535
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,800
recollection, what was the
scenario that you decided that

536
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,400
you needed to bring him up to
the hospital for?

537
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:21,480
And I tell her everything that's
going on.

538
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,360
She goes back in and bark
shorters at it.

539
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:29,080
During all of this, they're,
they're rotating, doing chest

540
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,840
compressions on them.
They're you know, there's to

541
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,520
this day, I can remember looking
in the room and there was sets

542
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,600
of 212345 sets of two people.
And I can tell you exactly

543
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,160
whatever what every set of two
people were doing and they're

544
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,520
working on them.
And probably about 3 minutes

545
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,800
goes by and they get the paddles
out, which you know now they're

546
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,000
like the pads you stick to
people, not the old ones where

547
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,320
you put the gel on them.
And I hear him yell clear and

548
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,680
they shock him and literally he
lifts off the table and goes

549
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,240
back down.
Well, as I'm watching this, I

550
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,560
turn my attention to the monitor
because I'd, I'd, I'd looked at

551
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:08,960
that monitor 1000 times because
of all of his respiratory stays.

552
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,120
And I was looking at his heart
rate while they did it.

553
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,480
And it literally went boop and
goes right back to what it was

554
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,040
doing.
I mean, it was still going up

555
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,680
and down, but it was faint.
And in my brain at the moment I

556
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,200
go, he's not coming back.
Now I don't react to it, but I

557
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,680
go, he's not coming back.
And they continue to work on

558
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,800
him.
And it come at the end of the

559
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:32,960
day, it came back.
I think they shocked him like

560
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,400
four or five times.
It was, it was a good number of

561
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,400
times.
And they get towards what turned

562
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,240
out to be kind of the end of
them working on him.

563
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,800
And the head ER dot comes over
to me and she said, well, I can

564
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,560
shock him again.
But she said, I think the

565
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,720
results going to be the same.
And I said, well, this is out of

566
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,320
my medical wheelhouse.
I said, do what you think is

567
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,600
professionally necessary.
And I think they did.

568
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:55,320
I, that's the one part I don't
remember.

569
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,680
I think they did.
And then she pronounces them and

570
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,640
offers her condolences.
And I, as one could imagine, I

571
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,240
turn into the other room and I
have a moment for a second.

572
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:11,160
And then I immediately clear it
up and I, I call my wife.

573
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,120
Now my wife at this point is
working from home.

574
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,680
All she knows or is thinking is
I'm taking him up to the

575
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,360
hospital.
I'm most likely going to get

576
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:20,760
admitted.
We're going to be there for our

577
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,720
seven to 10 days, and then I'm
going to come home.

578
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,160
Well, I had to tell her that her
son was dead on the table.

579
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,920
And I'll never forget the sound
that she made over that phone

580
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,040
when she finally took a breath
to, like, gain her composure.

581
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:40,680
I said, 'cause she was working
remotely, I said contact your

582
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,440
boss, tell them what's going on,
leave work, call your parents,

583
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,240
'cause they live close to us,
have them drive you up here.

584
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,760
I'm a very kind of military
telling her I was just like,

585
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,560
you're not in the state to
drive, you need to be up here,

586
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,440
call your parents, OK?
And she did that and that came

587
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,680
up.
I then had to call my mother who

588
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,400
had watched him many times over,
over his life.

589
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,440
And I'll never forget her
response.

590
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,400
And, you know, I had to
compartmentalize in that point.

591
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,080
Now, later on down the road, my
mother said, I'm curious, how

592
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,600
long after Zachary passed away
did you call me?

593
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,400
And I said, about 10 minutes.
And she goes, you were eerily

594
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,760
calm when you called me.
Zachary had literally just

595
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,080
passed.
And it's like you had no

596
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,720
emotion.
And I said, well, in that

597
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:32,840
moment, I knew I had to talk to
Jennifer.

598
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,760
I knew I had to talk to you and
I needed information.

599
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,680
And I said if I were a
blubbering idiot, so to speak, I

600
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,040
wouldn't have been able to get
it.

601
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,120
And I, and literally after I got
off the phone, the care team

602
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,520
came in there, offered her
condolences and she and she

603
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,520
asked me something.
She said, you know, we're here

604
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,480
to get you through this next
process.

605
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,280
And I said I literally stopped
in her tracks.

606
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,520
I pointed at my sound and I
said, this is going to sound

607
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,560
cold and callous and I don't
mean it to be.

608
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:03,880
I said, but I will deal with him
in a minute.

609
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,760
I said I've got questions that I
need answers to.

610
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,960
And she goes, OK, what would you
like to know?

611
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,320
And I rapid fired off literally
20 questions back-to-back back,

612
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,280
back, back to her.
What was going to happen?

613
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,640
If I like what happens from
here?

614
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,000
Where does my son go?
Is the corner going to do an

615
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,800
autopsy?
If he does, what's the protocol

616
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:25,520
for it?
If he doesn't, why is he not

617
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,840
doing it?
I said, if he does do a autopsy,

618
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:31,680
what's the turn around time?
If he doesn't do an autopsy, who

619
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,920
do I need to contact here for
the Funeral Home?

620
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,160
And like, she even took a step
back, 'cause like I was, I was

621
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,560
just, I just kept going.
And I said, I don't mean to be.

622
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,360
I said, but right now the thing
that's going to comfort me is

623
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,960
information.
And she goes, OK, And you know

624
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,000
the rest.
She comes back and tells me all

625
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,280
that.
And, you know, his mother comes

626
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:56,400
up and we finally decide we're
going to leave.

627
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,240
And the head of your doc comes
over to us.

628
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,240
And I literally look at it and
said, look, I said this is

629
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,000
devastating for us.
And I said y'all did the best

630
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,640
y'all can.
I said I don't want you to think

631
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,320
anything other.
I said the fact that y'all work

632
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:15,199
for 45 continuous minutes to try
to save him was much longer than

633
00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,520
I ever thought y'all would work.
And I said I sincerely

634
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:22,280
appreciate all y'all's effort.
I said I'm.

635
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,159
I said don't think I'm upset at
y'all that y'all didn't save

636
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,639
him.
I said I get that he was

637
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:30,280
basically too far gone once we
brought him in here.

638
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,840
And then typically what people
will ask me, they say, well,

639
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,800
what was the hardest thing about
that day outside of losing your

640
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:39,920
son?
I said two things.

641
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,719
I said while I was waiting for
my daughter to not my daughter,

642
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,840
my wife to come up.
I said I noticed how cold he

643
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,600
got, how fast he got that way.
They'd literally stopped working

644
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:53,800
on him and it was literally like
3 minutes.

645
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,160
He went from warm to cold.
I said it was that fast.

646
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:01,400
And I said the other thing that
I'll never forget was when we

647
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,080
left the trauma room, I had to
take all of his cut off clothes,

648
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,720
put it in his empty wheelchair
and wheel it through that whole

649
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:11,320
hospital, go down to the, our
the van, put it in the back of

650
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,840
our van.
And we had to drive 60 miles

651
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,680
home and miles home.
And we were like in dead silence

652
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,080
the entire way home.
I said I'll never forget those.

653
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,000
That's a lot.
It is.

654
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,000
So I just want to back up a
little bit.

655
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,480
Sure.
You're probably unconsciously

656
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,520
grieving the life you thought
you would have with these two

657
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:44,080
special needs kids and you again
to sudden and shockingly lose

658
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,720
your son.
It sounds like you gave yourself

659
00:35:47,720 --> 00:35:53,080
about 30 seconds to feel that
and then information mode being

660
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,800
the rock and forming the family.
Exactly.

661
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,760
How long was that brief amount
you gave yourself?

662
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,320
How long did that?
Was that all that you gave

663
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:06,200
yourself?
How long did that last?

664
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,800
When when I got home, as you can
see the Z behind me, I'm in

665
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,320
Zachary's room.
We got home and you can't see

666
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,640
from here, but there's there's
another wall in here.

667
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,360
And I wheeled his wheelchair in
in the corner.

668
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,760
It's somewhere behind me.
I parked it there.

669
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,240
In fact, it had that wheelchair
has not moved since the day I

670
00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:30,160
brought it in here, since the
day he passed.

671
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:34,400
And I came around to the side of
his bed right here.

672
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,920
And I looked at it before my
wife kind of followed me into

673
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,000
the room.
And it was at that point it hit

674
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,920
me like a Mack truck, like
almost knees buckling kind of

675
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:49,640
scenario.
So we did that.

676
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,040
I did that for a few minutes and
then we regained composure

677
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,920
because we my parents asked us
to come over to their house.

678
00:36:57,920 --> 00:36:59,640
Like my whole family was over
there.

679
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:08,080
And we got over there and we
walked in and my brothers and I

680
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:09,800
have a have a pretty good
relationship.

681
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,920
Are we buddy buddy?
Like do we hang out all the

682
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,040
time?
No, but like I walked in, I saw

683
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,320
my whole family and the first
person I saw was my eldest

684
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,120
brother.
And I don't know what it was

685
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,480
about it, but when I saw him as
I was walking into my parents

686
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:32,160
room, like my knees buckled, I
like I lost it and like he

687
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,880
hugged me and all that kind of
thing.

688
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,480
And I and I lost it for a few
minutes and I regained composure

689
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,960
for that moment.
And so I went back in there and

690
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,320
as you can imagine, I had the
whole family kind of staring at

691
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,560
me and, and you know, they were
understandably, they kind of

692
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,920
wanted to know what was going on
and how it happened.

693
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,840
And so I tried to tell, but as
anybody in that state, I would

694
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,240
get through a few words and I
could feel that like trembling,

695
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:58,400
like I was going to lose it
again kind of feeling.

696
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,760
And so that was the longest
conversation I think I've ever

697
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,720
had.
And I did that.

698
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:12,160
And essentially what had
happened next was we went home.

699
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,600
My daughter at that point had no
idea what was going on.

700
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:20,280
All she knew was I took my son
to the hospital and that she

701
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,040
probably thought in her
simplistic understanding, I was

702
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:28,280
still going to be there.
And so I had to inform her when

703
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,480
she got home that her son had
passed away, her, excuse me, her

704
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,240
brother had passed away.
And that was difficult just

705
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:38,880
because of her with her delays,
it was hard to make that a

706
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:44,560
simple concept.
And then after we did that, we

707
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,400
went to the Funeral Home and got
information was kind of the rest

708
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,640
of that day.
Did you and your wife grieve

709
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,680
differently?
We do.

710
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,240
She's the quiet and kind of unto
herself and she'll go off and

711
00:39:00,240 --> 00:39:02,200
have a moment to herself kind of
thing.

712
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,240
I, at least in the house, I'm
very visual.

713
00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:10,480
It doesn't matter who's around.
If I, you know, if it hits me

714
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,720
hard enough and I'm just
bawling, crying, it doesn't

715
00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:15,200
matter.
That's just where it hits me.

716
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,360
Now, am I that way out in
public?

717
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,520
No, I'm pretty reserved out in
public.

718
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,600
But in the four walls of my
house, no.

719
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,080
I'm very, very visual, if you
will.

720
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:33,280
Is there anything you wish women
understood about men in grief?

721
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,840
Yes, what women need to
understand is despite whatever,

722
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,520
I don't know what you know, if
you're a woman listening, I

723
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:46,400
don't know what your situation
between your significant other

724
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,880
is.
You may have a significant other

725
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,800
that opens up, you may not.
But let's get past this fallacy

726
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,640
that men don't have emotions and
men don't get emotional.

727
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,040
We do.
We just.

728
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:06,480
Pick and choose where we do it.
A lot of us hold it in because

729
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,320
that's what we've been taught
since birth.

730
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,240
To give a great example, I'm 49
years old.

731
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:15,520
I'm generation X.
I'm part of the, you know, rub

732
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,760
some dirt on it, walk it off
generation or you're crying.

733
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,880
Give me, I'll give you something
to cry about kind of generation

734
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,400
is what I'm a part of.
And so I was always taught, sure

735
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,200
you can be emotional, but it
means be short, brief and then

736
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,040
you need to get back to whatever
you were doing.

737
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,640
And the, the best way I
described it is like you get 3

738
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,120
days of bereavement from your
work.

739
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,840
That was about the amount of
time that me as a man that I

740
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,320
should be grieving and that it
should be back to normal.

741
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:48,080
And so, you know, I tell women,
especially from some of the

742
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,520
things I've just seen in society
and heard these days, if you

743
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:56,280
want men to be emotional and
grieve, you can't dictate how we

744
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,840
do it.
You can't say, well, I want an

745
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,000
emotional sensitive man.
And then when he does it, you

746
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:08,040
ridicule him for being weak or
you or you ridicule him for I

747
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,880
can't believe you're being
emotional about that.

748
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,480
I can't believe that's bothering
you.

749
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:19,160
One of those style comments.
And so if you expect your male

750
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:25,080
partner or significant other to
be open ears and listen to you

751
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,200
then and not talk while you're
going through your entire cycle

752
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,440
of whatever's bothering you, you
have to be willing to do the

753
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,240
same for us.
If you don't, it will not work.

754
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:41,040
And a lot of men, to use a
sports analogy, a lot of men

755
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,920
kind of give the whole 3 strikes
and you're out kind of ideology.

756
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:50,600
You know, you may not think we
we remember something that you,

757
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,760
but we, but we don't forget it.
If you downplay, then that just

758
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,440
tells me as a man, if you're
saying I can't believe you're

759
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:01,120
getting upset about it, that's
just telling me from your point

760
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,240
of view that my feelings don't
matter as much.

761
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:08,760
It's only about your feelings
and my feelings will never

762
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,960
matter as much.
You've got to get out of that

763
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,240
thinking.
That's typically the ballpark of

764
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:20,960
what I tell a lot of women.
Was your willingness to feel in

765
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,120
privacy always there, or did it
take this this gut wrenching

766
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,760
experience to make that true for
you?

767
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,880
No, I've always been kind of, I
hate to say it blunt, if you

768
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,440
will.
I, I was always the person that

769
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,680
between the groups of people I
knew, I had the nerve to say

770
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,200
what everybody else was
thinking.

771
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,280
Like it didn't bother.
Like if I said something, it

772
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,000
offended someone and it was like
a staunch thing that I believed.

773
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,360
It didn't bother me.
Now, I mean, I wouldn't

774
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:53,720
necessarily rude about it, but
like I just I said what I felt.

775
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:59,280
And especially with the grieve,
at least initially, it was just

776
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,200
a family.
It was until probably a year

777
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,080
into that I got to where I'm at
today with everything I'm doing

778
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:06,840
all.
Right.

779
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,600
That, that was my next question.
So Zachary's been gone just over

780
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:11,960
three years, is that right?
Yeah.

781
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,440
Just over three years.
So what?

782
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,760
What was what?
Was there a pivotal moment that

783
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,640
made you put that grief into
something else?

784
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,880
Yeah, it was counseling.
I've always been a big proponent

785
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,280
of therapy and counseling.
I believe we all go through

786
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:33,320
seasons where we may need it.
I definitely, I up until about

787
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,520
two weeks before he passed, I
just finished like a year of

788
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:40,640
going once a week and I'd
literally two weeks before

789
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,960
called up my counselor and said,
hey, I think I've kind of cycled

790
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:46,800
through this should I need it
again, I'll call you back in on

791
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,240
your waiting list, that kind of
thing.

792
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,480
And there was a lot of
unintentional grieving stuff I

793
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:58,000
was dealing with pre his passing
that I finally got through for

794
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,520
two weeks later for actual
grieving to start as life would

795
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,720
have it.
But so I got back in to see her

796
00:44:05,720 --> 00:44:07,480
and I was seeing her weekly at
that point.

797
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:12,440
And probably about the almost
two months in one of the

798
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,680
sessions, she looks at me and
she goes, have you ever thought

799
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,760
about journaling?
And the irony of that statement

800
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,480
now because of all the writing I
do was I said, you know, I don't

801
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,200
know if writing's my thing.
I literally said those words to

802
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:28,920
her and she goes, well, she said
put it on the back burner.

803
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,920
It's more of a, a distraction, a
mindfulness activity.

804
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,440
It's more to get it off of you
than like to share it with

805
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,040
people.
And she said you can if you want

806
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,440
to, but it this isn't designed
for you to like share it with

807
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,640
the world unless you just, you
feel like you need to.

808
00:44:44,240 --> 00:44:46,840
And I said OK.
And even from that point, I put

809
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,200
it kind of on the mental back
burner for nine months after

810
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,080
that point.
I, I thought it, I resisted it,

811
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,840
I didn't want to do it.
And ultimately it was, I was on

812
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,160
Facebook, I was watching a reel
and honestly, I don't remember

813
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,120
what the reel was about, but
something in that reel caught my

814
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:07,040
attention that reminded me of my
son.

815
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:12,000
And I literally sitting in my
chair, just, I lost it for a

816
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,480
minute.
And it was in that moment that I

817
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,280
opened a Word document and
improper like Oxford English

818
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,720
style.
I, I wrote a letter to my son

819
00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:26,560
and I verbally vomited on a page
very open, very raw, like if I

820
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,280
felt like I needed to drop an F
bomb in there because that's

821
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,240
what I was feeling.
That's what I wrote.

822
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,200
And I did that several times a
day for several weeks.

823
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,800
I and I, for, for whatever
reason, I saved them all.

824
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,400
I don't, I honestly, I don't
remember why I saved them, but I

825
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,000
did.
I mean, I'm thankful I did now,

826
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,560
but in the moment I was just, I
don't remember what prompted me

827
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,280
to.
So I wrote those letters for

828
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,920
weeks and weeks and weeks and
one day out of the blue, I was

829
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,040
in a, a, a Facebook group that
dealt with grieving the loss of

830
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:02,480
a special needs child.
And I got to know the female

831
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,440
admin very well and got
connected with her on Facebook

832
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,680
and, and I messaged her and
said, Hey, do you mind if I

833
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,040
share one of my journaling
entries?

834
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:14,680
And literally before I could
finish, she was just like, yes,

835
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,360
we would love for you to.
She said, we rarely, if ever get

836
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,520
men in here kind of giving their
side of this journey.

837
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:24,800
We'd love to hear it.
And I said, OK.

838
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,720
And so I copied and pasted in
there.

839
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,360
And right before I hit Santa, I
paused for just a second.

840
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,760
I thought, well, as noble as
this is, it's still the

841
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,120
Internet.
And am I in the mental space?

842
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,880
Should someone in this room come
out and give me negative

843
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,440
comments?
Am I going to be able to handle

844
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,000
the negative side?
Should I get it and not jump

845
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,560
down someone's throat because I
can't handle it?

846
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,520
And ultimately I went, screw it,
I'll do it anyway.

847
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:55,120
And I, I submitted it to the
group and it was probably that

848
00:46:55,120 --> 00:47:00,440
evening, I, I think I'd gotten
off social media and I got in

849
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,960
that evening and there was a
massive response in this group.

850
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,880
And thankfully it was all
positive.

851
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,880
And I, I told I to this day,
I've told the, the admin there,

852
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,160
I said, if I hadn't gotten that
response, I said I wouldn't be

853
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,000
here, I wouldn't be doing what
I'm doing.

854
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:17,680
I said, because if I'd have
gotten a lot of negative, I

855
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,880
would have probably dropped it.
But I had women in there saying,

856
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:27,720
the one I'll never forget was I
had this one woman go, we've

857
00:47:27,720 --> 00:47:30,840
never talked.
I've never expressed to you how

858
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,120
I felt.
I've never told anybody what's

859
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,920
deep down inside.
And this letter word for word

860
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:41,720
exactly explains how I feel
every word of it.

861
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:44,120
And I said, well, I appreciate
that it resonates with you.

862
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:48,240
And I said it was inspired by my
son passing, unfortunately.

863
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,200
And I said I'm I'm glad that you
got something out of it.

864
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,040
And so that's kind of where the
ball started for everything

865
00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,440
that's gone on up to this point.
Was that very first just kind of

866
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:05,320
response I got?
So today, what is letters to

867
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:09,720
Zachary?
Letters to Zachary is a the the

868
00:48:09,720 --> 00:48:13,240
first thing that was that still
kind of the main place that I

869
00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:18,800
post on as a Facebook page.
That's where I do the just about

870
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,320
everything now.
I do all different types of

871
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:23,760
form.
I do the in the forms of

872
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,760
letters.
I do in the forms of like poetry

873
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,920
and prose.
I take like I follow a lot of a

874
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,800
lot of like well known people in
the grief community.

875
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,360
And I will like share, like
where you can comment above and

876
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,160
I'll take whatever their stuff
is and I'll kind of give the

877
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:44,480
mail commentary to what they've
written to give people like a

878
00:48:44,480 --> 00:48:47,320
different perspective from what
they've said.

879
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:51,280
I've done memes, I've done short
videos.

880
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:54,680
I mean, I, I've, I've kind of
learned how to do it all on

881
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,160
there just to get different
kind, you know, for those that

882
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,040
like videos versus reading and
those that like commentary

883
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:05,000
versus videos.
So there was the Facebook page

884
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,720
and then I moved over to
Instagram because then I could

885
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:11,640
do all the like, picture stuff
and commentary.

886
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:16,720
And then I'm now on, I've been
on TikTok and I, I, if you'd

887
00:49:16,720 --> 00:49:19,520
have told me years ago that I
had 49 years old, I'd be on

888
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:24,200
TikTok doing videos.
I, I just told you no, but here

889
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:25,880
I am.
And, and I got in there because

890
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,280
someone I know that's on there
said that there was a huge grief

891
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,440
community on there and I had no
idea.

892
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:36,960
And, and then it has then
subsequently, I now have a

893
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:41,960
professional website, letters to
zachary.com, where I've got like

894
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:44,360
all my social media with the
media appearance.

895
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,480
I've done how to get to
everything I'm a part of.

896
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,480
And then kind of I've got
resource pages on there,

897
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,000
although right now they're still
kind of small at this point.

898
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:58,560
I'm, I'm kind of adding them as
not as I'm finding them, that

899
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,480
kind of thing.
And then last but not least, I

900
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:08,640
am also, I'm also published.
This is the letters to Zachary

901
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:13,120
grief coloring book.
The reason why I went with a

902
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:18,600
coloring book versus like a
biography or a book style kind

903
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:23,400
of thing is one everybody does a
book and I I may eventually get

904
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:29,720
there, but the brainchild came
from my son.

905
00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:32,240
Zachary has a sister.
And I was thinking one day I was

906
00:50:32,240 --> 00:50:34,640
just like, what if I was a
different family that had a

907
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,440
child that didn't have the
issues that my daughter does?

908
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,440
How would I explain this to
them?

909
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:45,240
And what would I need to kind of
soften the moment to be able to

910
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:48,520
explain this to them?
And the coloring book was the

911
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,760
idea.
And I did that because first of

912
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,560
all, who doesn't like the color,
whether it's adults or children?

913
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:58,880
Second of all, coloring is is a
mindfulness activity is

914
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,240
destressing and for the
simplistic term terms is

915
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:07,440
distracting if you will.
And from the parents point of

916
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,080
view, I go, well if I can get my
daughter to color that will

917
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,520
distract her enough to give me
time in my brain to formulate

918
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:19,440
how I'm going to explain
difficult topics and simplistic

919
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,080
ways to my child.
And then last but not least,

920
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,600
several entries are mine in
there, but I did a survey and

921
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,080
literally all of the other
entries in there came from a

922
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:35,240
survey I did of people that I've
met online or I know personally

923
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:41,360
that have lost a loved one.
And what it basically did.

924
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,840
They entered all this
information, the illustrators

925
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,600
took the information and they
either made an actual coloring

926
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,520
book scene, they're related to
their information, or kind of a

927
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,800
collage in there.
And then on the Backpage, it

928
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,720
listed who the loved one was and
like positive things about him,

929
00:51:58,720 --> 00:52:02,000
like favorite sayings, favorite
quotes, just things they liked,

930
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,320
that kind of thing.
So I could make it a active and

931
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,400
interactive memorial.
In fact, like, here's one of the

932
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:15,440
collages they did for someone.
Here's the what they wrote about

933
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,040
them.
Well, that's a quote of mine.

934
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:19,960
Wow.
What's the luck that I went to

935
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,080
mine?
They did that.

936
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:23,800
There shouldn't be one here
right soon.

937
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:25,760
Yeah.
This one was a different person.

938
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,840
This is actually a coloring book
scene because they like camping,

939
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,280
they liked outdoors and they're
they liked music, as you can

940
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,360
see.
And inside the the kick drum,

941
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,680
there's something.
There's their initial.

942
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:43,720
And so it was just something
that I could do to like hold in

943
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:48,720
my hands of the legacy for my
son as well as the people that

944
00:52:48,720 --> 00:52:54,120
have loved ones in here now.
They have a tangible legacy for

945
00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:58,240
them.
And it was a way that I could

946
00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:02,720
give back to the grief community
because the grief community has

947
00:53:02,720 --> 00:53:07,160
been priceless in their help to
get me to where I am today.

948
00:53:08,240 --> 00:53:13,480
What advice would you give men
who are dealing with deep loss?

949
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,280
To be blunt and simplistic about
it sucks.

950
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,120
I mean, it's terrible.
It's the worst thing that you

951
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,440
can go through.
You know, if you're dealing,

952
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,000
especially recently, a terrible
loss, if you're the type of

953
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,160
person that you need to go in
your garage and you know, like

954
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,440
punch a hole through the
drywall, then go ahead and do

955
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:32,280
it.
I mean, that's perfectly normal.

956
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:37,080
That's dealing with the grief
that comes out.

957
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:40,240
And typically in man, it always
starts off as anger.

958
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,640
I don't know many men that it
doesn't start off in anger, but

959
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,560
have your moments of, of anger,
have your moments of just

960
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:55,360
desperation, that kind of thing.
But understand at the at some

961
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,120
point, the only way you're going
to get through grief is to

962
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,440
actually grieve.
And now when I, when I say some

963
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,200
point, it is perfectly normal to
kind of be in this grief state

964
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,440
at least the first year.
So don't.

965
00:54:09,640 --> 00:54:12,080
So if you think after six
months, what's wrong with me?

966
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:16,880
No, I know a lot of people took
them that entire first year to

967
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:21,960
finally kind of maybe not get
through, but kind of get over

968
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:27,160
that first hump to at least have
a a little better understanding

969
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:31,040
of it and understand that a lot
of the things that you're going

970
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,680
through, it does not make you
abnormal or unusual or weird or

971
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:38,040
anything like that.
If you're the type of person

972
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,720
that you want to kind of be
reclusive for a while, that's

973
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:41,720
normal.
I've done that.

974
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:43,680
If you want to stay in bed,
that's normal.

975
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,200
I've done that.
If you don't want to deal with

976
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:50,400
people, I've done that.
Now the last one I'll say, but,

977
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,720
but I'm going to say something
afterwards, at least for me and

978
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:58,200
grief, there was a period of
time I had a lot of really dark

979
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,400
thoughts relating to it.
And when I tell people that,

980
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,320
typically their ears perk up and
they say, well, are you

981
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:07,400
suicidal?
No, I'm not.

982
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:14,640
But when you're a man who's lost
your son and even daughter, but,

983
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,120
and you realize that you know
you, you've done things out of

984
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:22,080
order, the out of order, the,
the lineage on that line has

985
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,320
stopped all those stereotypical
things.

986
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,680
Sometimes those thoughts come
into your head.

987
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,240
And I tell people all the time
in short spurts.

988
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,840
In my opinion, that's completely
normal.

989
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,760
If it gets to where it's
becoming more and more and runs

990
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,680
your day and all that, at that
point, I tell people all the

991
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:45,440
time, seek help.
And I tell people all the time,

992
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:51,000
even though I say that 99.99% of
men would never do anything like

993
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,280
that.
But for some of us, that's a

994
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,520
natural progression to kind of
get through the dark times.

995
00:55:57,120 --> 00:56:01,920
And so I just, I tell again, I
tell men all the time, if you

996
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:05,160
think it's unusual or the, the,
the other people don't do it,

997
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,320
think again, because we've all
done it.

998
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:12,880
Yeah, yeah, I want to read right
that dark thoughts, thoughts of

999
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,000
ending things normal.
Yeah.

1000
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:20,520
If and when they become plans,
that's the that's the danger

1001
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,320
zone.
That's when really get help.

1002
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,760
Don't keep that to yourself.
So through all this, I don't

1003
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:29,680
want to, I don't want to lose
you without asking first.

1004
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,680
How is your daughter?
She's doing well.

1005
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:41,240
I think she understands it.
For a while there, when I got

1006
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:44,480
home, she always knew that when
I took she called Zachary Bubba

1007
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:46,240
because that was the word that
came out.

1008
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:50,160
She always knew that when I left
with Zachary that I would go

1009
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:51,760
there.
I would get admitted with him, I

1010
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:53,440
would stay with him, I would
bring him home.

1011
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:58,480
Well, this time I took him, but
when I came home, I was without

1012
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,400
him.
And so when she came in the

1013
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,640
door, she had this puzzled look
of, well, where's Bubba?

1014
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:10,440
And at that moment I had to go.
Well, girl, unfortunately

1015
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:13,960
Bubba's no longer with us.
I said.

1016
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:16,480
He's in heaven now.
I said, if Daddy could have

1017
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,600
brought him home, Daddy would
have done everything in his

1018
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:20,560
power to bring him home.
I said.

1019
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:22,800
But Daddy just couldn't do it
this time.

1020
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:29,240
And I think she kind of
understood in the beginning, I

1021
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:33,800
and I overtime I said it many
more times to her and even a

1022
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:37,840
little more simplistic terms to
say that she ever really

1023
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,600
completely understood it.
I don't know.

1024
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:45,400
I think she might have, but I
can't 100% say that she had.

1025
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,440
I know for a long while.
I know she was angry with me

1026
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:52,440
because I didn't bring him home,
which is fine.

1027
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:54,880
I, I had no issue with that
because that's how she dealt

1028
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,400
with it.
But there's still times here and

1029
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,960
there that she'll got, she'll
randomly just go Bubba, Bubba

1030
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,640
and, and just kind of call out
his name.

1031
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:08,520
It's kind of how she does
currently.

1032
00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:12,040
So you've mentioned God a few
times in our conversation.

1033
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:18,320
Has this, well, it's in this
this has your life strengthened

1034
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,600
weekend done anything to your
faith?

1035
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:25,080
Faith has always been a strong
component of what we've gone

1036
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:30,760
through.
I will be 100% honest, I've

1037
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,760
never like left the church and
nothing extreme like that.

1038
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,600
Have I strayed from it at times
when I've had questions?

1039
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,360
Yes.
But I've always come back.

1040
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:45,440
Not to get preachy or religious
or biblical or anything like

1041
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,160
that.
But yes, my family over the last

1042
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,480
20 year has had a lot of trials
and tribulations and hardships.

1043
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:58,240
But I related for those that are
familiar with the book of Job, a

1044
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:03,080
character in there that faced
basically ultimate devastation,

1045
00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:07,480
but still had faith in God and
you.

1046
00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,800
Now do I think I'm on the level
of, of, of Job?

1047
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:15,040
No Have I faced tremendous
devastation?

1048
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:21,200
Yes, but it's more the concept
in that book that faith was

1049
00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:24,400
never lost even through the most
of difficult times.

1050
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:30,280
And as a parent, losing a child,
in my opinion, is probably the

1051
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,400
most difficult time you can
imagine.

1052
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,480
And even though it may not have
always been on the forefront, it

1053
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:40,080
was never lost.
Jason, what's the best way for

1054
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:42,640
people to find out everything
that you're up to?

1055
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:47,480
You can go to letters to
zachary.com and Zachary is

1056
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:53,400
spelled ZACHARYI know sometimes
people put an E on the end.

1057
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,360
You can go there and you can
find out about the Facebook

1058
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,480
group and the page and all my
other social media and media

1059
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,400
experience and all that stuff.
If you don't want to go there,

1060
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:09,600
you can go to the Facebook page
of the same name and group of

1061
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:13,880
the same name.
And same name on TikTok and

1062
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:18,200
Instagram for those that saw the
coloring book that are

1063
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,880
interested in it.
If you go to my website, it's

1064
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:24,520
either the third or fourth
section down, you'll see a

1065
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:27,760
picture of it and a button.
If you press that button, it'll

1066
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:29,760
take you directly to the Amazon
page.

1067
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:33,240
Awesome.
Jason, I want to thank you for

1068
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:39,120
your your openness, your sharing
your vulnerability and putting

1069
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:42,240
your pain into positive action.
Sure.

1070
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,520
Yeah.
You know, at about a year and a

1071
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:47,360
half, I mean, I'm, well, I'll
forever grieve.

1072
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,280
It's a lifelong process.
But I had a year and a half.

1073
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:54,120
I just finally got to a point
where I was, instead of always

1074
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:58,360
being upset about it, what can I
do about it to be a be positive

1075
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:04,240
if if anything, in the name of
my son, it was the initial of it

1076
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,320
was I want to my son only lived
15 years.

1077
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,480
He's got to have more of a
legacy than just 15 years.

1078
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,920
And that was kind of the ball
that started rolling after I did

1079
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,880
that first letter.
Well, thanks again.

1080
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:22,280
Thanks for your sharing and I
know you are helping lots of

1081
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,240
other men and families
everybody.

1082
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:26,440
Sure.
Thank you so much.

1083
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,360
You know, at the end of the day,
despite whatever following I

1084
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:33,160
have, if I can help at least
one, then it was worthwhile.

1085
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:36,880
Amen.
Thanks for joining us, everyone.

1086
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,760
Please visit realmenfield.org.
See the blog post for this

1087
01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,120
episode, which you'll have all
the various links and resources

1088
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,160
that Jason and I discussed.
Wherever you're discovering Real

1089
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,880
Men feel, please subscribe,
follow, do all the things you

1090
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:52,040
can to spread the word, to share
this content, to show that you

1091
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,400
appreciate it is helping you.
If you aren't sure where you

1092
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,000
want to go in life, it is almost
impossible to get there.

1093
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,160
I invite you to book a free
Clarity call with me and we'll

1094
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,200
explore what you want, what's in
your way, and what you can do

1095
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,840
about it.
Please visit

1096
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:11,560
theandygrant.com/off and until
next time, be good to yourself.