Navigating Nice Guy Recovery | Insights from Jason Lange

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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This is your host, author, coach
and healer, Andy Grant.

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You can visit theandygrant.com
to learn more about me.

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Real Men Feel exists to remind
men that they're human beings

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and that they have the right to
experience and express all of

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their emotions.
We have conversations that most

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men are not having, but that all
men can benefit from.

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My guest today is Jason Lang
Jason is a men's embodiment

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coach, group facilitator and
certified No More Mr. Nice Guy

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coach.
He helps men drop in and wake up

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to deeper clarity in their
life's purpose and

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relationships.
He believes every man should be

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in a men's group for the growth
and support opportunities that

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such groups provide.
We have a lot of common

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experiences with men's groups
and the book No More Mr. Naiska,

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it's author Doctor Robert Glover
was on Real Men Feel episode 224

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back in early 2021.
Jason and I have a powerful

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conversation touching on nice
guy syndrome, men's work, covert

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contracts, authenticity, and
much more.

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Jason shares how nice guys are
created very early in childhood,

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what led him to seeking a men's
group, his definition of men's

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work, and what women really
crave from men.

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Let's do it.
Welcome to Real Menfield, Jason.

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So excited to be here.
Thank you for having me, Andy.

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Yeah, I'm really sad to talk to
you.

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Back in 2020 and 2021, I
facilitated groups at the

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appropriately titled website
mensgroups.com.

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Men's Men's group.com One.
No.

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Yeah.
One singular.

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So many men came there because
of one book, No More Mr. Nice

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Guy by Doctor Robert Glover.
It was practically like the

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Bible of the organization
because one of the things that

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book stresses is every man
should join the men's group.

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Now I know that you have worked
with Doctor Glover and are a

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certified No More Mr. Nice Guy
coach.

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So for people not familiar with
that that Bible of men's work,

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what would you how would you
describe Nice Guy syndrome?

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Yeah, and and kind of how I work
with it in a, in a sense is nice

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guys tend to be born into a
context where right, we both as

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humans, we have two primary
needs when we're born. 1 is

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security and attachment.
So human beings are very quite

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unique in the, in the world in
the sense when we come out of

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the womb, we cannot survive on
our own.

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We literally we will die if
we're just left to our own

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devices.
And there's all kinds of biology

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around that.
Our brains got too big, so birth

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started happening and basically
a trimester earlier, but that.

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So we come out and we need
secure attachment, which means

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we need the people around us to
take care of us.

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We also come out with this need
for something called

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authenticity, which is our need
to express what's true in

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ourselves.
I'm hungry, I'm tired, I'm sad.

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I want this, I don't want that,
right?

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And those are two human needs.
Now, the birth of Nice Guy

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syndrome in my book is what
happens when those come into

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conflict.
So in order to maintain healthy

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security and attachment
generally with some kind of

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caregiver, often but not always
our mothers or a female figure,

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when in order to do that, we
have to start to disconnect from

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what's happening inside of
ourselves.

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So another way to think of this,
Andy, is, you know, ideally the

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environment when we're growing
up as kids is our parents are

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attuning to our nervous systems,
right?

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So they're they're the
directionality of attention is

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them to us with nice guys,
something often happens where

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very quickly we have to attune
to the nervous system of someone

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else, often a primary caregiver.
So in order to take care of our

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mother or our father or keep the
peace, there's a certain way we

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have to be to keep them well
regulated in a sense.

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And the cost of that is often US
disconnecting from our truth in

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the moment.
And so the origin story often

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goes quite young in a sense.
And then if we pair that with

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some of the cultural context
right now of many men, I think I

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imagine that you worked with and
I've worked with over the years

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were raised by seeing the impact
of what I call kind of

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pathological masculine.
So men disconnected from their

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hearts that can hurt the
environment, hurt their spouses,

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hurt their kids are checked out
or Alcoholics or volatile or

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whatever that might be.
We're we're, you know, still

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kind of rounding out the tail
end here of the Me Too movement

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and all of this truth coming to
light of just the many ways

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different men in the world have
abused their power and rank.

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The point of that is many men
who often, but again, not

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always, were sometimes raised by
women hearing about all the

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awful things certain types of
men do or sometimes experiencing

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it themselves, right, with an
abusive father or neglectful

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father or something.
And so the other part of Nice

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Guy is often, well, I don't want
to be that.

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So it's kind of the pushing away
of the macho jerk in some sense,

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the the kind of assertive,
authoritative, aggressive guy

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who just goes for what he wants.
So nice guys end up kind of

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having this paradigm of what's
important to me is that whoever

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I'm with feels safe, supported
and is OK is not in some kind of

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distress and I will mold my
behavior to make sure that

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happens.
What then often happens is

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because I'm disconnected from
what I need, instead of being

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able to ask for it directly,
Nice guys.

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As Doctor Glover says, we create
these covert contracts and try

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to get those needs met in other
ways.

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So, you know, a typical one as
well.

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I'll do this for you because
then you'll have to do that for

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me.
But I've never actually asked

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you if you were up for that
agreement.

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And then when you don't do that
thing back, I get really

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frustrated or resentful or
passive aggressive about it.

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So the work you know, I do with
nice guys in a sense is and I

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actually think in the the, the
long term view here, nice guys

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are an incredible evolution.
We want men who are connected

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and have the capacity to attune
to other.

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The problem is, some of us nice
guys throw out the baby with the

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bathwater and then totally
disconnect from ourselves, our

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truth, our our wants, our
desires, our sexuality even.

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And we don't actually get the
things we want in life.

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And frankly, we become less
trustable 'cause people can kind

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of feel we're not really being
as direct as we might wanna be,

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because directness might cause
conflict.

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And we don't wanna cost
conflict.

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We wanna keep everything nice,
right?

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Yeah, yeah.
That that niceness can feel

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artificial and that I think
that's what people something off

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there, right.
So I went back and so Doctor

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Glover was a guest on on this
show back episode 224.

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And I went back and one, one of
my favorite quotes out of that

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was Doctor Glover said, if I'm a
nice guy, then everyone will

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like and love me.
And so that's the the essence of

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that covert agreement.
Like I'm, I'm being nice to get

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me something.
I'm yeah, I'm not nice 'cause

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it's just my general affable
nature there.

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There's something in it for me.
So there's like a almost an evil

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intent to to the niceness of a
of a nice guy, at least at

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times.
Totally.

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And there's lots of ways nice
guys can actually sometimes be

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not very nice because of all the
covert lack of truth, kind of

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passive aggressive manipulation
that I've done it before, like,

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you know, a lot myself, like
I've been there, I've done it.

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And it's like I, in retrospect,
yeah, that wasn't very kind, you

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know?
Yeah, yeah.

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So I wanted to ask what got you
involved in this work?

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So was it your own discovering
your own Nice Guy syndrome or

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something else?
Yeah, I mean, before I even

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knew, you know, about the term
of nice guy.

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For me, it started with just
pain around women.

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I did not know how to connect to
women.

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Got really awkward, nervous in
my body, uncomfortable around

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touch.
And that kind of on ramped me in

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my late teens and early 20s
into, you know, just the general

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path of self discovery and
personal growth.

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And then I got super lucky, man,
in my 20s.

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Came across the men's group back
in, you know, mid 2000s when

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they weren't quite as prevalent
as they are now.

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And that just radically shifted
the direction of my life because

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I started to get feedback from
other men about how they were

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experiencing me, how I was
showing up when I wasn't being

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truthful.
And they would sometimes dig

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under the surface and help me
discover what was actually going

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on there.
And then as I, you know, went

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into men's work, like, I'm not a
lot of men.

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Yeah.
I discovered no more Mr. Nice

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Guy.
And I was like, oof.

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Ouch.
You know, this is this is, this

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rings pretty true for me here.
And for me, the, you know, maybe

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there's two flavors of nice
guys, one of which is kind of

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just desperately seeking
approval from from others and

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love.
And for me, it was a little bit

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more on the spectrum of just
total conflict avoidance.

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Just could not handle conflict
in a sense.

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And it would just overwhelm my
nervous system.

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And reading that book and
starting to do men's work and

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learning like, Oh yeah, wait a
second, boundaries.

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These are a thing, right?
I need to be able to identify

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them and set them.
And as I teach guys, now, you

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know, it's actually the quickest
way to find out if you want

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someone in your life, you set a
good boundary with them.

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If they respect that, awesome.
They don't respect that.

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They just answered your
question.

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Right.
It's almost like that's their

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it's it's you're giving people
an opportunity to put up their

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hand and go, yeah, I have a
covert contract with you.

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I'm I'm not as nice, affable,
supportive, whatever I might

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seem on the surface as perhaps
you you thought about that

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relationship.
One thing you said back in one

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of your first lines, first
sentences since you're getting

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here, you mentioned authenticity
as a basic infantile need.

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And I don't think I've heard,
I've heard self-expression, but

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I really like how you, you, you
stress that it's our

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authenticity at that, at the
core of our being that that is

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yearning for expression and
recognition.

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Yeah, it's this, right?
Self-expression, I think, is

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quite related to it in a sense
of, oh, here's what I'm

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authentically feeling.
And so I'm able to share that in

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my environment or relationships,
react to it.

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You know, in a sense, I need
this.

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I'm feeling this.
Like that's an actual capacity

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we need as human beings.
I'm hungry right now, so I'm

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gonna cry until someone feeds
me, right?

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That's a basic authentic
expression that unfortunately,

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you know, even as young kids,
we'll learn to start

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manipulating of like, oh, but if
I cry too much, then I can tell

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mom isn't happy when she comes
for me.

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So I'm not going to cry when I'm
hungry.

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I'm just going to be a good
little boy, right?

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You know, there's so many ways
this could manifest.

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And suddenly we're kind of, you
know, in a sense, we start to

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betray or neglect ourselves in
the process.

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And I think particularly in
relationships, this is somewhere

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it shows up because, you know,
basically if it, if the person

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you're with you keep having the
experience of they're not even

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willing to stand up for
themselves.

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The easy leap of judgement is,
well, then how can I trust them

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to stand up for me?
Right?

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And I see this in, in, in
romantic relationships a lot of

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like, wow, he is tolerating
something that is pretty awful

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and he's not saying no or he's
not speaking back to me and

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setting a boundary.
And it actually can create a

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like a repulsion or I don't
trust you or a fact that it's

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pretty often shocking to some of
the guys I work with when they

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like learn to get in touch with
maybe a little bit of angry

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anger or a no in a healthy way,
not in an aggressive way, but

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just like, hey, no, it's not OK
to talk to me like that.

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Their partners actually end up
feeling more trusting of them

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because it's like, oh, I can
feel you.

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You're not going to be pushed
around.

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In a sense.
I can trust that you have this

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capacity to be here and stand up
for yourself, which then again

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by extension is you could
probably do that for me too.

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Right, If, if, if we value
ourselves, will value other

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people too.
But if we're lying to ourselves

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and lying about every
relationship and, and doing

229
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,520
everything covertly and, you
know, being manipulative,

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00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:17,360
whether you know, consciously or
unconsciously, like, like energy

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00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,880
is felt it, it, it yeah.
What we present to the world is

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not what the world perceives It
truly it, it gets our

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authenticity and we can be
authentically masking who we are

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trying to hide that too.
So it's, you know, it's it's a

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trip.
I've I've found I hear this from

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00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,200
a lot of guys and I it was my
experience too, reading no one

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00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:38,600
Mr. Nice Guy.
That's a tough read.

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00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,720
I don't, you know, I've not met
many men that picked up.

239
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,400
Yeah.
Oh, yeah, I'm sure I'm a nice

240
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,120
guy.
I can't wait to identify myself

241
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,240
in here.
Like, no, it's like, I liked

242
00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,200
being nice.
I didn't like being called a

243
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,520
nice guy.
And that was my experience

244
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:59,400
growing up.
And was it what, what was it

245
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,320
like when you first first read
the book?

246
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,240
Did you just see truth in every
chapter?

247
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:04,920
Or is it, you know, just some
aspects?

248
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,760
Of it or yeah, I think the
experience I had is probably

249
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,640
similar to what you've you
you've noticed.

250
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,760
It's been it's, it's often like
a oh, and like a little bit of

251
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,960
revulsion of like, oh, like,
yeah, wow, did they read my

252
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,560
diary?
Like is it really, you know,

253
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,280
which on the one hand is often
like, and on the other hand is

254
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,200
like, oh, wait, I'm not the only
one.

255
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,840
OK, This is like, I'm not broken
or something.

256
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,040
It just hears for me, it
actually eventually generated

257
00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,520
some compassion for me where
it's just like, oh, this is just

258
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,040
some habits of my nervous system
I learned when I was really

259
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,400
young that aren't serving me and
aren't serving the people I'm

260
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,040
around.
So let's let's work on changing

261
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,120
that, right?
And getting the tools from, you

262
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,280
know, working with someone like
Doctor Glover or getting into a

263
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,720
group or men's work, Like that's
really in my book, the path out.

264
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:57,000
So one one term that's been said
multiple times already and I

265
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,840
just in case it's new to someone
or in case never like how would

266
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,120
you define men's work?
Yeah, men's work.

267
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,640
It is such a vague term in a
sense, but it's really just the

268
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work.
I say men 'cause I work with

269
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men, but it's the work of
becoming more whole in human, so

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00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:18,040
just more whole and feeling
complete and OK in ourselves.

271
00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,160
And for a lot of us guys, that
often involves becoming more

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00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:29,120
present and grounded in our
bodies, more open and sensitive

273
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,840
in our hearts, connected to our
feelings, and then more clear

274
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,120
and in, in a sense, control of
our awareness.

275
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,600
So we're not just getting lost
in thought or rumination or

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00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,080
regret about the past or fear
about the future.

277
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:49,440
And it's in a sense all kinds of
different work that just work

278
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,600
those three muscles.
So ideally we get to this state

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00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,520
that I, you know, I try to
cultivate with men of yeah,

280
00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:59,520
ground in our body, open in our
heart and sharp and clear with

281
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,920
our awareness and able to in a
sense.

282
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,960
And I know you.
Oriented towards what's most

283
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:10,000
important.
I know you call yourself an

284
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,760
embodiment coach.
So is is the essence of that,

285
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,800
you know, getting men back, back
in their physical body and, and

286
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,280
and embracing all of their
sensations and whatever it means

287
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,240
to be themselves.
Absolutely.

288
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,240
So the idea is, you know,
particularly for nice guys, but

289
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,760
for a lot of men and you know,
culture and just lifestyle these

290
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,600
days don't particularly help us
in the sense of phones and

291
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,680
commercial like just
everything's trying to take us

292
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,600
out of the moment generally,
right distractions, chemicals,

293
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,240
whatever.
But this idea of so much of so

294
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,880
many men I work with, I think
nice guys in particular get to

295
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,960
this place where they think they
have to figure it all out in

296
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:53,440
their head.
I'm gonna, if I just thought of

297
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,960
the right answer or mapped it
all out, I would crack this and

298
00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:00,960
it'll be perfect and I won't get
hurt or I won't do it wrong or

299
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,440
whatever that might be.
And can heavily ruminate and are

300
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,960
often missing nice guys in
particular.

301
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,400
Like I say, I think that
connection to our, the lower

302
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,359
part of our body, our instinct,
our drive, our desire, our

303
00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:19,040
impulse, quite quite literally
in that the process of bringing

304
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:24,880
that back online is so
empowering for men and often

305
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,760
includes not just connecting to
our physical body, but our

306
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,680
emotional body, right?
Like the name of your show, Real

307
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:34,440
men feel there's a way that the
way I kind of teach it, you

308
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:39,720
know, pretty much all emotions
start as sensations in our body,

309
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:41,840
right?
It's an actual bodily.

310
00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,520
Oh, I feel the heat going up my
chest, down my arms.

311
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,920
I'm angry, right?
Wow, there's this pit in my

312
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,200
stomach.
I just feel, whoa, I am scared.

313
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,480
Like I'm so scared or, you know,
can just feel this heaviness in

314
00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,080
my face and my chest and there's
just so much grief.

315
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,480
Here it comes, you know?
And so the more we get into our

316
00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,160
bodies, the more we get into our
hearts.

317
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:10,920
And in my experience and why
it's important is it makes us

318
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,680
more effective.
I think that's why I tend to

319
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:18,640
emphasize the embodiment stuff.
You know the, you probably know

320
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,720
that the vagal nerve, right?
It's this collection of nerves

321
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,640
that go from our brain down our
spine.

322
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,040
And it's basically what connects
the brain to our body.

323
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:28,960
It's kind of the central channel
for that.

324
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,600
And they've done research and
wildly enough, if we consider

325
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,880
that, you know, let's say a
superhighway, 80% of the

326
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,720
traffic, 80% of the traffic
flows body to brain.

327
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,560
Only 20% of the traffic goes
brain to body.

328
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:52,200
So when we're not in our body,
we are actually missing out on

329
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:58,200
an incredible amount of
information we can use to inform

330
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,240
our decisions and make better
judgments and lead our lives.

331
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:06,000
So getting into our bodies is
often one of the best ways

332
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,680
where, as I say, it's like we
kind of learn to surf the

333
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,680
moment, you know, our body is
the antenna feeding us and that

334
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,960
gives us information that then
helps us make a decision.

335
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:17,960
That doesn't always come from up
here.

336
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,600
And there's tons of research
about it, right, of how how fast

337
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,240
the body can make certain
decisions.

338
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,600
And then we'll like out try to
out think it above.

339
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,560
And it's like, Oh, I know that
first impulse was actually

340
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:37,240
right.
Yes, so many insightful,

341
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,040
powerful, truthful things being
shared here.

342
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,240
And I hope it's it's landing
with him because it's the really

343
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,440
rich content.
And you know, in my own

344
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:51,560
experience of being alive and
working with other men so many,

345
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,480
so many times, I must come like,
Hey, how you feeling?

346
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:54,680
How you doing?
Like, I don't know, I don't

347
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,480
know.
And so, so much of that is

348
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,880
because we're trying to think
our feelings and being, not

349
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,520
being, not being present, not
being in our body.

350
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,720
You know, men truly don't know
how they feel.

351
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,240
And I've seen studies and
research that men process their

352
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,720
emotions by through movement and
that if you want to talk to a

353
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,600
man, go go for a walk.
Don't don't like for a spouse to

354
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,480
sit the husband down.
Like I got to talk to you.

355
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,160
It's serious.
And you sit down and just stare

356
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,000
at him like that's like the
worst thing for a man in many

357
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,040
cases.
But if you go give him something

358
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,480
to do, like, you know, while
woodworking or while walking or

359
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,480
chatting, while bowling, like
anything.

360
00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,760
But if a man has some physical
action to almost distract the

361
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,640
mind, they can get more in touch
with the heart.

362
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,120
Yeah, yeah.
And I would name that is, you

363
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,680
know, the what's the, the term
they use right, is

364
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,920
interoception.
So we have proprioception, which

365
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,000
is awareness of like how our
bodies moving through space on

366
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,040
the outside.
Interoception is the awareness

367
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,000
of what's happening inside
ourselves and US men in

368
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,600
particular.
And you know, we're dealt a

369
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,800
pretty terrible deck of cards
here in that, as I say, you

370
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:06,240
know, from a young age, most
boys and men are taught and

371
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,640
rewarded for being out of their
bodies.

372
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,640
So they're about their ability
to disconnect from their body,

373
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,360
right?
So young boy, stop crying,

374
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:17,960
toughen up.
You know, just get over it.

375
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,920
You're fine, right?
You can just feel all that

376
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,520
energy that so many of us
received, which what it's really

377
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,280
saying is ignore what's
happening.

378
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,880
Ignore what you're having, what
you're feeling, right?

379
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,520
Override that and then we get
into school, right?

380
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,440
And they do show, right?
Boys, we have certain different

381
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,040
biochemistry we need to move.
We're wild.

382
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,960
We learn through moving through
action.

383
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:47,160
Sit in this desk for eight hours
and don't move again.

384
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,160
We're taught override what's
happening in your body.

385
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,280
Then we become teenagers, you
know, locker room culture.

386
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,160
Don't ever share a
vulnerability.

387
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:57,760
Don't ever show weakness 'cause
they're going to use it against

388
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,280
you, you know?
And then up through, you know,

389
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,160
in some sense, even though it
might not connect with it, a lot

390
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,560
of sports, a lot of professional
sports in particular, it's push

391
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,640
your body harder and you're
going to pay for it later in

392
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,320
life.
But we're going to reward you

393
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,240
right now for literally
destroying your body and brain

394
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,400
with some of these sports.
You know, it's pretty wild.

395
00:22:18,120 --> 00:22:21,600
And then what we're rewarded for
in our work oftentimes is men

396
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,000
is, oh, he works 80 hours.
He's such a hard worker.

397
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,880
He doesn't even sleep right.
And you're, and you think about

398
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,240
it and it's like we reward men
for being disembodied, for being

399
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:33,760
disconnected.
So many of the world's most

400
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,840
dangerous jobs men do that
actually cause harm to our

401
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,480
bodies.
You know, it's certainly

402
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,880
changing these days.
But traditionally, military

403
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,680
service was mostly men kind of
disposable bodies.

404
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,200
It's just this whole thing is
kind of weighing down on us.

405
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,680
And then most of us, you know,
I've met a few who were lucky,

406
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:57,560
but most guys I know didn't
necessarily, particularly in

407
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,120
earlier generations, have
parents that knew how to

408
00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:06,600
actually attune and slow down
and be present with them and

409
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,720
help them actually identify and
label and know what the

410
00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:14,320
sensations they were having in
their body are.

411
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,360
Which to me is this is one of
the, you know, primary gifts

412
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:21,640
parents can give their kids.
And I see it a lot now as a

413
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,880
father of, you know, this thing
my wife and I are trying to do

414
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:29,080
of give my daughter language for
the experience she's having in

415
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,120
her body.
So she, you know, we're like,

416
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:32,560
no, you can't have another
cookie.

417
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,360
I want it.
I want it, I want it, I want it.

418
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,720
Wow, it seems like you're really
mad.

419
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,400
You're angry right now, huh?
That daddy told you you can't

420
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,720
have another cookie.
And then you can, you know, you

421
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,040
can actually see it over time,
sinking of like, yeah, I am

422
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:49,440
angry.
Yeah, I'm mad.

423
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,520
I want another cookie.
Lo and behold, that's how she

424
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,920
learns to label that sensation
in her body.

425
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,960
Ah, that sensation.
That's anger or that's sadness

426
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:02,000
or that's an anxiety or, you
know, whatever it is.

427
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,960
We have books on this stuff that
we're teaching our daughter.

428
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,640
And I'm like, oh, I learn
something every time I read

429
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,440
these, right?
My capacity for labeling my

430
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,920
inner world goes up in that, you
know, I, I think this is

431
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,680
particularly for men.
I work with a lot of guys in

432
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,520
relationships.
And yeah, it's really hard when

433
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,280
the woman's like, what are you
feeling?

434
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,760
And he's like, and then she gets
mad, you know, that he doesn't

435
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,120
know what to say.
And it's like, well, he's had

436
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,720
253545 years of no one teaching
him that.

437
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,840
And that's kind of putting him
on the spot.

438
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,880
You know, a great question I
often do for men is just like,

439
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,640
yeah, can you name a physical
sensation you're having right

440
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,560
now?
Yeah, my chest feels hot, feels

441
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:40,760
tight.
Great.

442
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,560
That is fantastic information to
share, even if you don't know

443
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,080
the, you know, emotion
necessarily correlated with it

444
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,040
yet 'cause our body tells us so
much.

445
00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,160
What is it about men's groups
that make them so?

446
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,400
Yeah, I think it's for one, a
safe, like honestly a safe space

447
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,260
where, you know, whether it's a
men's group, a women's group, Co

448
00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:10,600
Ed group, gay group, straight
group, The the idea is what's

449
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,480
important is something happens
when we're in a group that has

450
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,560
enough shared reality that we've
kind of been raised in a similar

451
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,840
context.
And I think for men in

452
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,400
particular, there's just this
feeling of, Oh my God, these

453
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,280
guys get it right.
I see this all the time of once

454
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:31,520
a man starts to share something
relaxes of wow, they get it.

455
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,760
You know, I see this, it's kind
of intense, but I've seen this

456
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,760
and experienced this with men
before of, you know, bringing

457
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:44,480
forward like just tremendous
hurt and depression and even

458
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,000
like, a part of me sometimes
just doesn't even know why I

459
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,680
want to live.
And I think sometimes other

460
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,920
people can jump in like, oh, my
God.

461
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,160
But sometimes I've seen just
another man just be like, yeah,

462
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,120
man, I totally know that
feeling.

463
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:06,840
And just that moment of, oh, OK,
you know, that feeling creates

464
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,800
so much connection in humanity
in a sense.

465
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,680
And it's that capacity to, you
know, paradoxically, oftentimes

466
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:21,720
what I see in men's group, Andy,
is it becomes a safe place for

467
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:26,840
US men to actually bring forward
our feminine, our emotional

468
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,280
selves, our feeling selves in a
very safe container where no one

469
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,320
needs anything from us.
They're not our spouse, our kid,

470
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,640
our employee.
There's no burden of how we

471
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,400
should have to be.
So we're allowed to just kind of

472
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,160
bring ourselves forward and
feel.

473
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:47,920
And the relief I see that
creating men is unbelievable,

474
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,080
because without it, you probably
know this too.

475
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:57,600
Most men walk through the world
holding so much because they

476
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,240
don't know what to do with their
emotions.

477
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,920
They don't know how to label
them, and they have no idea

478
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,680
where to put them.
So instead we just kind of clamp

479
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,440
down internally.
And then if things get too

480
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:15,920
dysregulated, we grab a drink of
booze, some weed, jerk off, go,

481
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,000
you know, work harder, whatever
that might be to try to get away

482
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,640
from those feelings.
And men's group is often just a

483
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,360
place where we're allowed to
just be as men, where no one

484
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:27,960
needs anything from us.
And we're often guys just they

485
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,720
want us to flourish.
They just want us to, you know,

486
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,080
do well in life.
And, you know, the other part

487
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,920
I'll just add in there that's
just as important, I think is

488
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:42,680
the it's the ability to get
clear, loving feedback.

489
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,720
I think something that many men,
even though they can sometimes

490
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,040
be terrified of it, actually
crave, I kind of call it the

491
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,760
spinach in the teeth thing,
right?

492
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,320
It's like when we discover we
have some men in our life who

493
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,160
will actually tell us when we
have spinach in our teeth of

494
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,960
like, hey, I'm seeing something
right now or I'm seeing a way

495
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,880
you're showing up and it's not
so great, man.

496
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,320
And I love you.
And I believe there's more here.

497
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,480
You, you know, you could do
better in your relationship or

498
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,040
with your work.
That actually often for US men,

499
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,160
when it's delivered in a caring
way, it feels like love.

500
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:19,360
Like, Oh my God, this person
actually cares enough about me

501
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,480
to kind of call me forward in
what they're seeing in my life.

502
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,520
And I think a lot of men just do
not have that.

503
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:36,240
Yeah, I, I, I can't think of a
single men's circle, well,

504
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,960
official or unofficial that I've
ever been in that didn't have

505
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,840
that, that that when that first
guy, you know, crosses that

506
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:47,400
invisible line and share
something vulnerable, perhaps

507
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,080
surprising, and it gives
permission to everyone else to

508
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,040
do the same thing.
And and this is where I see the

509
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,520
competitive side of men actually
be of service to them.

510
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,280
But oh, we're going, we're doing
it's that kind of group.

511
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:00,440
Oh, we're going to share.
All right.

512
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,360
Well, let me find what's what's
my darkest thing that I never

513
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,720
would have dare spoken about
today had I thought about it.

514
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,000
But here it is for me.
And yeah, and I do know how you

515
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,440
feel.
We're talking about your

516
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,560
depression, talking about your
suicidal ideation, talk about

517
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,560
how much you hate your job,
whatever it may be.

518
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,920
But once, when, when again, when
one man is willing to be seen

519
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,960
fully, that authenticity we
spoke of, it gives permission to

520
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,080
every other man.
And, and I think I agree with

521
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,040
you that men are dying,
literally dying for that

522
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,600
permission to open up, to share,
to, to bring their femininity

523
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,280
forward, Right?
Because, you know, but before

524
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,880
man or woman, it's human.
And there there's, there's a lot

525
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:42,880
of differences, but there's a
lot of similarities too.

526
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,040
And having emotions is one of
the similarities.

527
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,880
Place to learn to safely work
with those things.

528
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,640
And honestly, for a lot of guys
To tie it back to what you were

529
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,680
mentioning, one of the ways I
often use men's group when I'm

530
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,320
leading it or in it and often
see useful for guys is helping

531
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:03,480
them get clear about what
they're feeling or needing,

532
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,000
right, to actually get in touch.
And suddenly it becomes like,

533
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,120
it's like a light bulb goes on.
It's like, Oh yeah, I'm actually

534
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,240
pissed.
I'm mad at my wife for doing

535
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:13,800
that, that that's what this is
about.

536
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:18,360
I'm mad at her for doing this.
And that clarity then informs

537
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,080
them to be able to go back into
the world and engage in a clear

538
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,040
and concise way, right?
Rather than acting out of some

539
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,160
kind of deep resentment that
they hadn't really been clear

540
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,240
about yet.
And they're kind of withdrawing

541
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,120
from their partner.
And then their partner feels it

542
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,280
and, you know, it just gets
sticky.

543
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,480
But or, you know, I've seen it
with guys in work and it's just,

544
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,800
you know, it's like you've been
trying to do this thing for, you

545
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,840
know, 6912 months and it's not
happening.

546
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,840
Like, you know what's going on.
You just dig them deep in and

547
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,760
deepen in with the man.
And it turns out it's like, I

548
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,760
actually don't want to do it.
You know, I actually just, if

549
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,800
I'm really honest, I don't want
to do that.

550
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,400
I feel done or I'm just doing
that because I thought it would

551
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,120
make me more money or something
like that.

552
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,480
And then again, it informs the
action they can take back in

553
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:10,080
life.
So I often find men's group gets

554
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,440
helps me get more into my bodily
experience and get clearer about

555
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,880
what it actually is.
So then I have like a direction

556
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,080
to go back into my life with
versus just coming in of just

557
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,160
like I'm not, I don't feel good.
You know, I'm mad or I'm sad

558
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,280
like is often I still all these
years sometimes will come into

559
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,240
that and then my group will help
sharpen me up and help me get

560
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,440
clear about what it is.
What are some of the common

561
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,000
challenges that have men coming
to see you today?

562
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,320
Yeah, I would say first and
foremost, one of the reasons I

563
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,800
focus on dating in relationships
for guys is pain around dating

564
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,400
in relationships.
I mean, it's kind of woven into

565
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,480
my story and how I started.
But I've just found it's

566
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,000
honestly, not to be too crude
here, but it's one of the only

567
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,720
things that'll get guys asses
off the couch is when their wife

568
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:03,360
leaves them or they've been
stuck online dating and 1st

569
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,760
dates for two years and they're
just so frustrated and burnt out

570
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,000
that there's some kind of
connection they're wanting in an

571
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,520
existing relationship or one
they haven't found yet.

572
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:14,840
And they realize, like, I need
some help.

573
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,080
This is not working.
So often times men who are

574
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,960
struggling in intimacy or
relationship, certainly men who

575
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,880
are struggling with like
direction and purpose, like, I

576
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,880
don't know, I don't know what
I'm doing or kind of hate my

577
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,560
job.
And I'm not sure what action to

578
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,280
take next.
Often get a lot of guys coming

579
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,160
to that.
And then more and more, I'm also

580
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,600
starting to get to work with men
who are like, you know, I'm 50

581
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,840
to 60 years old.
My kids are grown up.

582
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,400
I kind of did the escalator of
life, you know, I did the

583
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,240
family.
I got the high paying job I've

584
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:56,320
worked my butt off for for 30
years and I'm kind of miserable.

585
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,880
Like I'm kind of miserable.
I did all the things they told

586
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,480
me to do and yet I just, I'm not
waking up feeling good in my

587
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,400
body.
What is going on here?

588
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,120
And there's that kind of.
Yeah, same things I've been

589
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,480
finding for for decades.
Like the I I see that the

590
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,800
biggest mask that men carry
around is that everything's

591
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,000
fine.
Got all figured out.

592
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,760
Yeah.
And then when they, when they're

593
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,400
willing to get introspective and
and to share to someone else,

594
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,000
you know, I've done all the
things I'm supposed to, but I'm

595
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,240
still miserable.
What what did I do wrong?

596
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,640
Right.
And, and hopefully that that

597
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,160
pain of disappointment is enough
to make someone speak up to a,

598
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,400
a, a buddy, the, the bartender,
you know, therapist, coach,

599
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,920
men's group, whatever it is.
But I, I, you know that that's

600
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,960
when I, I, I wish men pain and
not so that they crack open

601
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,720
'cause I, I, I, I, I have not
met a man in my life that didn't

602
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,160
have some level of hidden pain,
often hidden shame about that

603
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:59,000
pain to begin with.
Totally.

604
00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:01,120
Yeah, it's part of that
condition.

605
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,040
And then if, if on top of that,
yeah, on top of that, you're

606
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,400
pretending to be nice and
helpful and that everything's

607
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,480
fine, that just it, it, it does
not help.

608
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,320
Inside And, you know, another
one that maybe kind of straddle

609
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,679
some of these I also get is just
a lot of men are just lonely

610
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,280
just.
Yeah, that's an epidemic,

611
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,360
desperately lonely.
And again, you know, society

612
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,880
isn't really helping in this
part.

613
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:28,600
Things are moving to work from
home and virtual and public

614
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,280
spaces keep disappearing.
And you know, it's, it's hard if

615
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,320
you know, in a, in a sense, And
I think for a lot of men, you

616
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,760
know, outside of that kind of K
through high school or

617
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,320
university years, if they many
men, if they haven't gotten

618
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,800
their guys by then out in the
world, unless they're lucky with

619
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,400
the workplace, they can really
struggle to build those new

620
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,400
connections, particularly later
in life.

621
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,000
And again, or just kind of dying
of loneliness inside, which then

622
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,720
I've often found impacts their
relationships because then

623
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,280
they're so lonely, they're
willing to dive into things that

624
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,400
are extremely volatile or with
unhealthy partners because it's

625
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:12,920
better than nothing, right?
In a sense.

626
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,800
And what I've seen is men, you
know, create this solid sense of

627
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,040
community around them,
particularly through a group.

628
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,600
It allows discernment to come
back in relationship and so much

629
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,560
more nourishment through
connection that, you know, guys

630
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,040
lives just tend to get quite a
bit better.

631
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,640
And that, you know, the other
thing is they live longer,

632
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:35,840
right?
All the research is pretty clear

633
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:40,920
that, yeah, that's being lonely.
Feeling alone is just as

634
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,440
damaging as being morbidly
obese, poking a smoking a pack

635
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,880
of cigarettes a day.
You know, I can't think of what

636
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,480
it was, which book it was, but
there's a book that just had a

637
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,280
documentary came out that just
very kind of in your face

638
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,480
research.
It's like literally just being

639
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,760
part of a club where you
regularly meet up with people

640
00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:03,360
decreases your chances of dying
in the next year by like 50%.

641
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:08,120
Like just having some kind of
community around you helps you

642
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,920
live longer.
And I think a lot of men are

643
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,240
kind of coming up against that
in our in our world right now

644
00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:17,880
and really desperate for some
kind of real connection in

645
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:23,160
bonding that's not just based on
triangulation, as I say, which

646
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,200
many men fall into of doing
things.

647
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,720
So you and I bond by having our
attention on this third thing,

648
00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,120
the sporting game, the fixing
the car, the thing which you

649
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:34,400
know, if there's a great time
and place for that, but often

650
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,640
misses.
You can do that for decades and

651
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,880
never actually look at each
other and say, hey, what's going

652
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:44,680
on for you and have that actual
interpersonal deep connection

653
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,280
that I think just a lot of men
are very malnourished on.

654
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,160
Yeah, it's a good way to put it.
Being the the ultimate

655
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:58,840
malnourishment is is that is
that that need for interaction

656
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,160
you did for humanity to have it
reflected back to us.

657
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,760
I've I've seen you talk about
you work.

658
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,280
I call it nice guy recovery.
So what what?

659
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,920
Tell me a little bit about what
Nice Guy recovery looks like.

660
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,600
Yeah, Nice Guy recovery is, you
know, really that process of

661
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:20,000
learning to fully inhabit
ourselves again as men and kind

662
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:25,200
of come out of that nice guy
shell of not of always

663
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,680
prioritizing others above
ourselves.

664
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,400
So a lot of times, yeah, it's
getting guys back into their

665
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,800
bodies, teaching them what
boundaries are, how to set them,

666
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,880
building some actual capacity in
their nervous systems to do

667
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,360
that.
So like, yeah, how do we

668
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,320
actually train your body to be
able to handle conflict, right?

669
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,920
What some languaging you can use
around that and in sense to get

670
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:56,080
just clear about what they want
and learn that it's OK to ask

671
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:58,160
for it.
You're not always going to get

672
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:03,600
it, but it's a much healthier
and honest and conducive to

673
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,360
connection when we start to
learn to ask for these things.

674
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:09,440
Hey, I'd like to take you on a
date 'cause I'm attracted to

675
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,680
you, right?
Versus I'm just gonna keep doing

676
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,880
nice things for her and hope
eventually she realizes I like

677
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,240
her, right?
That's like total classic nice

678
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:19,880
guy kind of stuff that I used to
do.

679
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,440
Because, you know, we don't want
to get rejected in a sense, and

680
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,040
we don't want to make her
uncomfortable.

681
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,040
But then, you know, we end up
being miserable a lot of times

682
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,320
or just learning.
Yeah, if if we never clearly

683
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,120
ask, we can never be clearly
shut up.

684
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:33,680
Yes, exactly.
Totally.

685
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,320
For a lot of guys too, man.
You know, sometimes it's setting

686
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:41,760
boundaries with like family
members or exes or spouses that

687
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:46,320
it is just being in relationship
with that person is

688
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,960
dysregulating.
So it's like we can do all the

689
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,920
coaching in the world, set up
structures and goals, but it's

690
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,120
like it's just opening the
Band-Aid every time they

691
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,120
interact with this person.
And so for some nice guys, it's

692
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,400
learning to say, hey, you know
what, I'm gonna step away from

693
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,680
this relationship, possibly
forever.

694
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,640
I don't know, to take care of
myself.

695
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,400
And it's amazing how much
vitality can come back to guys.

696
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,840
But you know, in a sense, I, I
also kind of teach it as just

697
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:16,760
learning to trust our impulses.
So for a lot of us,

698
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,480
impulsiveness has this negative
connotation, right?

699
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,640
He's, oh, he's out of control.
He's so impulsive, but I mean,

700
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,520
impulse in the sense of, yeah,
what is it that's actually

701
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,720
coming through my body?
What information am I getting?

702
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:33,760
Oh, for whatever reason, might
not be rational, but I want that

703
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,000
today and not that.
So I'm going to move towards

704
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,880
that and then see what happens
in my life rather than over

705
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,680
analyzing it forever and all.
I can't do that because of this

706
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,360
or that because of this that
might upset so and so.

707
00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:49,520
So yeah, Nice Guy Recovery is
really just the process of,

708
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,640
again, learning to be authentic
in our expression of who we are

709
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,000
and ask for what we want and
what we need and to trust that

710
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,640
that's actually gonna help us
find the real estate, most

711
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:05,480
authentic relationships in life.
Because when we're doing the

712
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,560
nice Guy thing, people are in
relationship with a figment.

713
00:40:09,720 --> 00:40:11,480
It's not real, It's not actually
us.

714
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,600
And so there's not actual
intimacy there, but when we

715
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,480
start to be authentic.
You know, some people are going

716
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:20,960
to be a no, like, hey, I'm just
not a fit for you and your

717
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,160
personality, your life.
But the people who are a yes are

718
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:25,960
going to be a yes to the
authentic you.

719
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,680
And it ends up being so much
easier.

720
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,520
So is is what women Well, first
of all, so especially a nice guy

721
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,400
is going to have a lot of
distorted thinking about what

722
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:43,840
women actually want from him.
So do women really want from men

723
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:45,520
authenticity, or is that just
part of it?

724
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,400
Yeah, I think it's definitely a
part of it.

725
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,600
What I would share, what I would
say in my experience is women

726
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,480
want to feel authenticity, but
they don't want to be your

727
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,600
mother.
And so I kind of, I see this

728
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,240
show up in my guys as the mother
lover conundrum.

729
00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:04,840
It's like, particularly if a man
doesn't have any other male

730
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,120
community, suddenly the only
place he can bring his emotional

731
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,520
self, his insecurities, his
fears is often times his

732
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,160
partner.
So it's kind of like, I'm scared

733
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,240
about that.
And what that often does is it

734
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:21,600
kind of puts her in the mother
soothing role of like, oh, wait,

735
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,360
now I you're not going to be OK.
You're not going to be OK.

736
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:27,440
So I have to soothe you in a
sense.

737
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,240
And there's a time and place for
that in any relationship.

738
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:32,720
I'm not here to say you never do
that with a partner.

739
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,320
The problem is when you mostly
only do that with that partner,

740
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,320
guess what?
That energy of kind of mothering

741
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,480
and soothing you, that is pretty
incompatible with I wanna jump

742
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:44,960
your bones and I'm attracted to
you.

743
00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:49,720
It is very different energy,
very different muscles.

744
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,600
So men learning, you know,
through men's group in a sense

745
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,360
to have a place to bring some of
this.

746
00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,880
What I see is it allows them to
bring a type of authenticity to

747
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,800
their relationship where they
can feel, you know, and I've had

748
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,400
this experience in my
relationship that the man is

749
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:09,280
being held.
He's being held.

750
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:14,160
So, oh, it doesn't fall solely
on me to make him feel OK,

751
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:15,520
right.
You know, there was an

752
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,440
experience I had with my wife,
maybe 2018, just become a coach

753
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,280
and kind of rather ill advised,
burned all the bridges with my

754
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:25,760
previous work.
And it's like, I'm just going to

755
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,440
dive all the way in.
And, you know, it was a

756
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,960
financial nightmare, just
nightmare in my tendency when I

757
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,120
get stressed is I withdraw.
I just stopped communicating.

758
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,960
I kind of go cold and it freaks
my wife out.

759
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,280
And we had gone through this
dance enough, enough that there

760
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,400
was a time I was really hurting
and I could feel it.

761
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,280
And we were like having this ice
cold dinner.

762
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,760
And thankfully because of my
men's group and work I had been

763
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,760
doing, like I kind of knew the
nugget underneath.

764
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,520
And it literally just took two
sentences.

765
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,760
And I was just like, it feels
really hard right now.

766
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,240
I feel like I'm losing at
everything and I want to be

767
00:43:05,240 --> 00:43:10,920
winning.
And what I'm doing is getting

768
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,840
support for my guys to figure
out what to do next.

769
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,880
And I just wanted you to know.
And her whole body just went,

770
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:25,640
she totally relaxed because she
got to know what was going on

771
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,640
inside of me.
And I wasn't in a panic of like,

772
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,440
and I don't know what to do.
Like, you know, we're not going

773
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,040
to be OK.
Instead it was the sense of OK,

774
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:41,560
he's got this and now I can
support him along with the other

775
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:42,520
support he's getting.
I'm.

776
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,560
Just saying.
You have a podcast.

777
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,320
Tell me about that.
Yeah, so I do do my own podcast

778
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,080
called Evolutionary Men and it's
really just kind of Nuggets and

779
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,280
wisdom I express every week of
just things I'm experiencing in

780
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,080
my own growth as a man, as a
leader and facilitator of men's

781
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,880
group and coaching.
And, you know, I try to keep it

782
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,480
short in that just as a parent,
I'm like, I can't keep up with

783
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,320
the three hour podcast every
week anymore.

784
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,000
Like give me 1015 minutes
sometimes.

785
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:10,840
That's what I can do.
And so yeah, just short little

786
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,280
wisdom teachings.
I occasionally do have guests on

787
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,680
that I've worked with or people
I'm doing trainings with.

788
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,640
So you can kind of check out me
and all my vibe there.

789
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,360
And it's part of why I feel was
so excited when you reached out

790
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,320
to me my my second episode,
which was something I created so

791
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,680
long ago.
Real men feel everything.

792
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:28,880
And I was like, oh, this guy
gets it.

793
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,080
He's we're right there with each
other.

794
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,720
So we did, definitely.
Did did you share the title?

795
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,040
Oh yeah, the podcast is called
Evolutionary Men.

796
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,480
So that's kind of my brand of
programs and coaching and the

797
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,400
podcast itself.
And Jason, what's the best way

798
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,960
for people to learn more about
everything you're up to podcast

799
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,520
wise, coaching wise, group wise,
Yeah.

800
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,440
Totally, Andy, thank you.
I just go to

801
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:54,000
evolutionary.mensoitsnot.com,
it's dot men and on there you

802
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,680
can see tons of podcasts.
I've done blogs, I've done

803
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:59,760
programs I'm running and there's
a contact form if you're like,

804
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,960
hey, I need to find a men's
group or something like that.

805
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,520
I, I love referring guys out or
helping them find something in

806
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,800
their local community or working
with me.

807
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,120
It doesn't really matter.
You know, my mission is

808
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,440
definitely, every man should be
in a men's group.

809
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,280
So I will try to help get you
there in any way I can.

810
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,440
Cool.
Yeah, I'm very much this same

811
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:23,320
mindset where, yeah, I've get
inquiries and phone calls and

812
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,000
emails all around and like,
yeah, it's not about, oh wait, I

813
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,200
need to get this client.
Like, no, how can what does this

814
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,440
man need?
And, and often you tell me if

815
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:33,360
this is true for you.
I hear from from a lot of women,

816
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,440
a lot of spouses.
Like I don't know how to help my

817
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:37,600
man, but can you tell him
something?

818
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,640
I hear from women and
increasingly I'm getting a lot

819
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,480
of female therapists who do like
couples work and they're like,

820
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,160
you know, I keep telling this
guy he needs some men, can you,

821
00:45:46,240 --> 00:45:48,840
can you help 'cause they're
like, I can do a lot for him.

822
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,680
And there's just there is that
something special that US men

823
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,720
can give each other?
It's like a, it's a very unique

824
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:59,360
texture and quality of love of
like, I don't need anything from

825
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,560
you and I just want to support
you and being your best.

826
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,200
Jason, thanks so much for
joining us today.

827
00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:06,600
I love everything that you're up
to.

828
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:12,120
Wish you continued reach and
success, therefore your own

829
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,200
growth and for the growth of
everybody that you interact

830
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,440
with.
I look forward to the men that

831
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,840
your daughter gets to meet as
she grows up and experienced.

832
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,560
I want to see a better
generation, a fuller, a more

833
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,440
honest, authentic man generation
is it will be her peers.

834
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,440
Yeah, Thank.
You for.

835
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,280
That thanks very much for
listening to us wherever you're

836
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:35,600
finding real men feel, please
subscribe link, follow post

837
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,720
review share with somebody else
visit real men feel that org for

838
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:40,480
a blog post follow about this
show.

839
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,520
We'll have resources links
everything needed everything

840
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,240
every book mentioned all sorts
of different ways to for you to

841
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:49,040
connect with more men.
If you need a group, if you need

842
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,640
a coach and connect with Jason,
and you can always read out to

843
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,440
me at realmenfeel@gmail.com.
And until next time, be good to

844
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:57,840
yourself.