No Competition, Just Growth: The Lez Bro's Take on Men's Work

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There's a starvation for
connection, there's a starvation

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for vulnerability and just
finding out like who they truly

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are.
Like deep, deep down, like a lot

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of men don't get to really truly
understand who they are because

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they're always in go, go, go.
They're in action mode, right?

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And so like, when does man stop
and like actually breathe and

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pause and think about, you know,
who am I truly?

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And I think that it's just it's,
it's a societal thing that these

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these spaces were never set up
for men.

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer Andy Grant.

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Today's guest is someone who's
flipping the script on men's

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relationship work in the most
unexpected way.

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Ostalao is a lesbian coach who
works with straight men, both

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single and married, helping them
build deeper connection,

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emotional honesty and grounded
confidence.

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Through her coaching practice,
the Lesbro men are finding

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something they really
experience.

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A space with no sexual tension,
no competition, and no pressure

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to perform.
Just real honesty, mindfulness

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and growth.
We explore why men are choosing

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a lesbian coach, what emotional
safety actually unlocks, how

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mindfulness and presence can
transform the way men show up in

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love and life.
Let's do it.

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So First off, I want to know
about the moment of realization

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of the need in the creation of
the Lesbro.

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The Lesbro the the moment of the
need came.

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I was I was with sitting with a
bunch of male Co workers.

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This was about 10 years ago.
I was sitting with a bunch of

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male Co workers.
I was the only woman in the room

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and they were asking me so many
questions.

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Just questions about why isn't
this girl texting me back?

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Does this shirt match these
shoes?

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Like what happens?
Like what do I do for our first

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anniversary?
Like all of these questions and

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it was very simple of me to
answer them.

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I, I was dating men at the time
and, and I've now, you know,

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dated, I've now I dated Whitman,
but they were asking me so many

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questions and I didn't realize
the need that I was just so

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happy to be like answering those
questions.

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And they were so happy and they
were so relieved and they got

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answers to the questions that
they wanted and they would thank

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me over and over again.
They would come back to me and

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thank me.
And this kept happening over and

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over again until literally
earlier this year where I was, I

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got a dream actually, where I
thought about those scenarios

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again.
And I was like, there is still a

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need for this even years later.
Because this happened in

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multiple workplaces actually,
where I would become really good

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friends with the men in the
workplace and they would ask me

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questions.
And I think the moment they

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heard that I was a lesbian, all
of the guards went down, right?

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We're not competing.
They're not trying to impress

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me.
I'm not trying to impress them.

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And so they go straight into
vulnerable questions, which I

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absolutely loved.
And I think the need came during

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that, during those moments of
vulnerability.

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And that's how the Lesper was
born.

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Now, when you tell people that
you're a lesbian who coaches

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straight men about love and
relationships, what's the most

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common reaction you get?
When I tell women, straight

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women, the first reaction is, Oh
my God, my husband needs this.

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That is literally the first
reaction with men, with straight

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men, they're like, huh,
interesting.

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Like they, they, they're a
little curious.

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They're a little like, huh, I've
never, I've never thought about

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this concept before.
But then they do ask me more

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questions about what it's about
and what can we talk about?

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And is it confidential?
They're more about privacy

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related questions and where the
women are like where does my

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husband sign?
My husband needs this right

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away.
And so those are the top 2

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reactions I get.
So do you think spouses are

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interested in this because they
they see it as a safe place for

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them to send their man to as
well?

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Like you're not going to steal
their husband or anything like

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that.
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, like

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there's, there's there is a, a
real vulnerability with straight

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women, right.
When oh, you have a female

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therapist or there's like
there's female Co workers,

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there's always that type of
vulnerability there.

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But I think with straight women
sending their husbands, and this

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has happened to me a couple
times, they thank me after

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because they know it's a safe
space.

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They know it's a safe space
where they're not talking to

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their wives sometimes, but they
do talk to me and they feel

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it's, it's kind of like broing
out in a way, but in a way that

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just feels safe.
And I'm not going to report back

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to their wives.
And so there is this level of

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comfort and privacy and secrecy,
but in a very safe place.

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And so and the women know I'm
not going to steal their man,

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which is which is really
comforting thought for them.

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Is it that notion of the safe
space of the no sexual tension

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or competition?
Is that what makes this sort of

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thing work for guys who like
resist coaching or therapy to

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begin with?
Think so.

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You know, I don't offer a group
therapy because I do think

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there's a dynamic in Group
therapy that is a little bit

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more competitive and people
can't be themselves.

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It's just me and another man on
Zoom.

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And they don't have to pretend,
they don't have to perform, they

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don't have to impress.
And I think with all of those

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barriers removed, there is a
vulnerability that comes out

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that you can't get when you meet
a man on a street or in a coffee

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shop.
The performativeness doesn't

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need to be there.
They're not trying to hook up

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with me.
They're just trying to fix

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whatever is going on in their
life, either with their wife or

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their spouse, or they're trying
to connect with women, Right.

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So I work with single men,
straight men and also married

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straight men.
Now, when we first talked, you

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said that it was this, there's
no sexual tension.

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And I was like, oh, come on,
like every guy I've met.

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And you might speak for myself.
If, if, if I'm having some sort

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of, you know, if being a lesbian
is part of the, the lower the

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marketing, the name of what I'm
into.

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I, there's going to be a sense
of that.

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Can I turn her?
Can I hook up?

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How can I make this work?
Anyway, I'm just got to, that's

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got to be the back of everyone's
mind at some point.

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And, and actually ask this in,
in my online group, authentic

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AFI ask guys and only half the
guy, I was surprised like half

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the guys like, Oh yeah, yeah, I
could see that I'd be, you know,

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turn her and all that sort of
stuff.

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But then half the guys like, no,
that thought wouldn't have

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crossed their mind and they,
they would feel more comfortable

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talking to a lesbian coach.
So you.

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Know, you know what's so crazy?
I used to have a best friend.

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I was dating women at the time
and it was a male best friend

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who just spent so much time with
me.

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We were best friends and, and at
one point he was like, Hey,

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like, would you ever give me a
chance?

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And I was like, where did this
even come from?

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Because I just thought we were
friends.

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I never thought in the back of
my head that he had a crush on

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me or he liked me or something.
But I think you're 100% right.

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There is this notion in the back
of of the mind for some men that

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are like, hey, I, I, I think she
would turn for me, which is so,

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so interesting actually to hear.
I mean, a lot of times in my

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sessions there maybe is that,
but I think there is like this

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social boundary where where they
don't cross that, which is which

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is great.
I think 'cause we talk about

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like way deeper things and more
vulnerable things and get to the

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heart of the issues, whether
they're trying to find a mate or

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they're trying to fix things
with their wife.

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Even if there is that tension in
the back of their head.

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So far so good.
They haven't told me about it,

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which is good.
Yeah.

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And it could just be like, wait,
I've just seen too many of that

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type of movies or, you know, you
know, pop culture has influenced

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me in this way.
Yeah.

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And and I imagine the the Zoom
like do you, do you meet anybody

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in person?
No, it's all all on Zoom.

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OK.
Yeah.

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So that makes it less possibly
intimate as.

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Well, yes, yes.
So what they do off of the Zoom

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call is, you know, none of my
business, but but on the Zoom

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call it's it's pretty
professional.

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Yeah.
So do do you find that men are

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starved for advice or
conversation or just like

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judgment, free witnessing and
someone hearing them?

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What?
What?

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I love, I love the use of your
word starve, because I would say

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that is an accurate word because
if you take a look at women in

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general, straight or gay, it
doesn't matter the way that

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we've been socialized growing up
is very communal, right?

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We get together, we have
sleepovers growing up.

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We have we we talk to each other
about our intermo innermost

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feelings.
We go to brunch.

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We, we talk about our baby
showers that we have these

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social gatherings and we go to
book clubs.

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There's a lot of women in yoga
classes and meditation classes.

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There are these communal spaces
and these intimate friendships

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where women, and you will
probably already know this, but

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we discuss very intimate details
about our lives with our closest

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friends.
And I feel like when you use the

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word starve, it kind of like it
was like a such a, it was such a

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perfect word because men don't
have those spaces built in even

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from childhood, right?
It's always just like boys

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playing on the playground.
And it's like playing the sport,

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not talking about feelings, like
how, how you show how good you

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are is, is the performance of
the action that you're doing.

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And, and as you grow up, that
doesn't change as well.

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There aren't a lot of social
places where men can have these

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conversations with other men or
with women.

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And I think you're absolutely
right.

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I think there's, there's a
starved, there's a starvation

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for connection, there's a
starvation for vulnerability and

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just finding out like who they
truly are.

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Like deep, deep down, like a lot
of men don't get to really truly

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understand who they are because
they're always in go, go, go.

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They're in action mode, right?
And so like, when does man stop

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and like actually breathe and
pause and think about, you know,

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who am I truly?
And I think that it's just it's,

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it's a societal thing that's a
these, these spaces were never

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set up for men.
Are there particular emotions

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that you see most men struggling
with?

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I think there's there's two, I
would say, I would say obviously

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vulnerability is a big one,
right?

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It's like even finding a safe
place where a no one's going to

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make fun of me and BI feel I
will feel heard if I'm actually

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even going to tell you about my
deepest emotions.

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So that vulnerability is like a
big one.

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The second thing, it's less of
emotion but more of an action is

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a lot of my clients struggle
with reactivity where where a

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lot of times there's a stimulus
and there's an immediate

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response and that response gets
them in trouble, right?

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That immediate response gets
them in a lot of trouble.

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Whereas when when working with
with me, I try to integrate

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mindfulness as much as possible
where there is a stimulus and

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there is a gap, a pause,
breathing, thinking about the

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situation, understanding and
then the response.

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So I think those are the two big
ones actually for my clients.

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It's like the vulnerability
aspect, but also like how to

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reduce reactivity.
And this is a common theme for

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the past year of shows.
I'm realizing that the guys that

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come to me and the times I
reached out for help, I have to

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be at rock bottom and I'm trying
like why?

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Why do so many guys have to?
You know, all hope is lost

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before they reach out.
So are you finding guys pre

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disaster or have most of your
clients hit rock bottom of some

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level before they've come to
you?

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Yeah, it's more, it's more
angled towards the the line of

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rock bottom only because I find
that men are fixers, right?

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They will try to fix in so many
different ways before trying to

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reach out for help.
And I think it's more towards

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the spectrum of like, I'm giving
up now.

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I don't know how to find a
girlfriend.

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I don't know how to do this
anymore.

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I've tried all these different
ways.

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00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:43,400
I don't know how to fix things
with my wife.

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I've been together with her for
years.

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But we now we feel like
roommates.

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00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,360
And now it feels like we're on
the verge of divorce, right.

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And always towards that breaking
point.

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Because I feel like they think
that they have tried every

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single thing.
And it just comes from that

238
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fixing mentality where it's
like, oh, now I need help

239
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,160
because I've tried everything
that I could do.

240
00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,920
Yeah, a lot of it's just, it's
like preventative stuff isn't

241
00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,880
really a big thing with with
men.

242
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,040
Whereas women we're like, let's
just make sure that this is

243
00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,960
going to go great, let's do all
the preventative care right now

244
00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,560
so that we don't screw up this
marriage or whatever, right?

245
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Whereas like men, it's kind of
like a last resort.

246
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:17,920
Yeah.
And it makes sense.

247
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,400
And as you were pointing out
that we're fixers, Yeah, if it's

248
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,000
not broken, nothing to fix.
And especially when it's our

249
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,440
inner world, our relationships,
it's really going to be

250
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,040
obviously broken before we will
do something. 100%, I feel that.

251
00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:32,800
Yeah, I feel that a lot
actually.

252
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,400
So I know that you emphasize
mindfulness and groundedness.

253
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Why is that so critical in in
relationships and and love

254
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,640
overall?
Think that first of all, I've

255
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:48,960
been meditating for a really
long time.

256
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:51,560
It's changed my life and I'm
sure that you, you've been doing

257
00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:54,560
it for a really long time.
And the, the benefits of it are

258
00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:00,160
so, so intense.
And a lot of times men aren't

259
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,800
trained to, to meditate.
They're, it's not a, a thought

260
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,760
that even crosses most men's
mind.

261
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,880
Maybe it's fear of humiliation.
Maybe they, they don't have the

262
00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,520
right teacher.
Maybe they've never thought

263
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:12,960
about the benefits of it, right.
There's a plethora of reasons,

264
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,880
but I find that with my clients,
some of them are a bit hesitant

265
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,960
actually to even jump into this
realm of mindfulness and

266
00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,720
meditation.
But I take a very practical

267
00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,600
approach where I like have them
think about something that is

268
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,120
stressing them out in their
relationship or even at work.

269
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,440
And I have them just breathe
through it.

270
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And I then I ask them how their
body responds.

271
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,480
And it's literally like the
evidence speaks for themselves

272
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:37,080
because they always feel better,
right?

273
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,160
So now like, like a lot of times
men, I have to be very

274
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:42,680
practical, very logical.
It's like, OK, let's do a

275
00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:44,520
thought experiment.
Let's, let's actually do the

276
00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,040
experiment.
What was, what was the result of

277
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:48,320
that?
How does your body feel now?

278
00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:50,720
And they're like, oh, so much
better, right?

279
00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,360
And so I can't take them through
it theoretically.

280
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,680
I have to take it practically.
And then they understand why

281
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:02,360
it's important and how does it
show up in their relationships.

282
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,800
I'll give an example of of a
married man who super react,

283
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,120
like very, very reactive.
A lot of times, a lot of the

284
00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,560
fights that they had was because
both of them are undergoing

285
00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:17,160
stress with the kids and having
very reactive responses.

286
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,600
And so we just did a little bit
of meditation and infuse that

287
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,600
into his decision making as
well.

288
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,080
Right where it's like, OK,
there's something that has been

289
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,400
said that from your wife that
has triggered you.

290
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:32,120
And So what is your immediate
response?

291
00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:33,720
And he tells me what usually
happens.

292
00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,160
And this pattern repeats and
repeats and repeats and repeats.

293
00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:39,000
And so, OK, what do we do now?
What happens when your wife says

294
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,080
this?
And now you're going to go

295
00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,240
through this entire breathing
technique, which is so foreign

296
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,520
to most men actually, which is
so foreign.

297
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,360
And they're like, they sometimes
they fight me on it initially.

298
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,600
But once we get into it and
then, OK, now how is your

299
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:53,920
response going to be to your
wife?

300
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,720
It they, you can literally see
the hamster in their head going,

301
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,200
whoa, I feel so much better.
I feel so much more calmer.

302
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,840
I can see this from different
angles now.

303
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,760
And this is how I would respond.
So like literally taking them

304
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,040
through the process practically
of how mindfulness can fix a

305
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:17,120
situation has been, has been so
amazing just to watch because

306
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,520
then they come back to me to be
like, hey, this happened again.

307
00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,240
But instead of blowing up, this
is what I did instead.

308
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,600
And then we actually connected
afterwards.

309
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,000
And so that I think is just the
proof.

310
00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,200
The proof is in the pudding,
right?

311
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,000
But you have to, what I find a
lot with a lot of my clients is

312
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,120
you have to take them through it
practically.

313
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:38,520
And it's been really helpful.
Yeah, when I I think it was like

314
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:42,480
2008, I finally really got a
meditation practice going and

315
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,200
until that had tried it here or
there or just as a blunt, I

316
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,080
can't sit in the Lotus position
for hours in the corner.

317
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,560
I'm not going to meditate that.
When I finally did find a

318
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,960
practice that that worked for
me, the first thing I noticed

319
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,360
was not being so reactive.
Like I really noticed that like

320
00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,680
'cause it, it was always at work
and like emails, oh, why these

321
00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,840
people stupid asking how long?
That's the same question.

322
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,480
Would I be less furious from an
e-mail?

323
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,880
I'm like, yeah, be like, hey,
where'd my fury at emails go?

324
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,200
And I just realized, Oh yeah.
So that that reactivity just

325
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,760
just decreases.
And you know, I think another

326
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,200
thing for for guys, especially
in a competitive work

327
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:18,000
environment, that reactivity can
seem like a good thing, like a

328
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:19,960
fast action and make quick
decisions.

329
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,240
But but mindfulness, slowing
things down actually makes

330
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,880
better reactions, better
decisions.

331
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,480
Is that what you find?
Oh my God.

332
00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,320
And I, I feel like even just
coming back from my clients,

333
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,160
like taking this practice,
taking it seriously, doing it

334
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,320
every single day, even when
there's nothing wrong, even when

335
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:36,680
there's nothing wrong in their
marriage.

336
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,480
And then them just doing it.
It's a, it's been a game changer

337
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,680
for them, right?
Because it's something new that

338
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,320
they have never even considered.
And now they have a way to

339
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,440
actually process their emotions
and think about it and breathe

340
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,600
through them.
And it doesn't just affect them,

341
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,480
it affects their relationship
with their spouse.

342
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,140
That affects their relationship
with their children, their Co

343
00:16:57,140 --> 00:17:00,280
workers, their communities.
I think like 1 little Pebble has

344
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,280
so many ripples when it comes to
meditation and and men actually

345
00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,040
and mindfulness in men.
That is just you can see the

346
00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:08,400
ripples.
You don't see them right away,

347
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,040
but you eventually see you see
them throughout the community.

348
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,599
You mentioned working with
married men and single men.

349
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,240
Are they coming to you with the
same issues?

350
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,640
Do you see the same patterns in
them or is it different?

351
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,079
Mostly different because their
goals are different.

352
00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:29,240
I think with single men, they
are starving for connection and

353
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,760
finding the right person and
dealing with rejection, whether

354
00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:35,840
it's like they're meeting people
in real life.

355
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,200
A lot of my clients are meeting
people on apps.

356
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,040
And so that reaction that the
dealing with the rejection of

357
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,680
that trying to find connection
through all of the the ups and

358
00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:51,280
downs of like dating, online
dating is, is a big one.

359
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,840
So I think the, the connection
is the big one, right?

360
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,720
And just finding someone that
they want to be with.

361
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,760
A lot of these people, a lot of
these men like want to find long

362
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:03,240
term connection, but they don't
know how.

363
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,400
And I guess, Oh no, when you,
when you put it that way, I

364
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,840
think with the married men, it's
also connection, right?

365
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:13,240
It's like, how do we get back to
the two people that fell in

366
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,400
love, right?
I mean, so a lot of a lot of

367
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:20,360
times, you know, school drop
offs happen and dropping kids

368
00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:23,400
off to swim care and getting
them bath time and getting them

369
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:24,920
ready for bed.
And it just becomes this

370
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:29,160
monotonous routine.
And how do we stop being

371
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,320
roommates?
Like how do we connect again?

372
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,800
How do we become those two
people that have fell in love?

373
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:36,320
And I think at the end of the
day, you're, it's about

374
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,080
connection on both sides, right?
But it's just in different ways.

375
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:44,520
I was reading this article last
week about how marriages, a lot

376
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,440
of them can survive without sex,
but they can't survive without

377
00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:51,320
touch.
And I find that a lot of my

378
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,440
clients are actually talking
about like, we don't even touch

379
00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,000
anymore.
And so that is when like the

380
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,560
danger zone kind of happens,
right?

381
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,720
It's like, how do we build that
connection again so that we can

382
00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,560
even be sitting in the same room
and after bath time and after

383
00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,760
the kids are down?
It's we're not just on our

384
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,960
phones or just staring at a
screen like 6 feet apart.

385
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,440
Like how do we connect and touch
again?

386
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,000
And so I think to answer your
question, it's connection on

387
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,840
both sides for straight men that
are single and straight men that

388
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:22,000
are married.
What sort of outdated ideas

389
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,000
about masculinity do you see
that keeps guys stuck in their

390
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:34,960
heads?
I think that a lot of times they

391
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:41,240
think that the right way to deal
with uncomfortable emotions or

392
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,520
any feeling of discomfort is to
shut down and not showcase it.

393
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,040
I think they've seen that
whether through their, their

394
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,120
father or other male role
models.

395
00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:58,240
It's just like I keep it
together and I become the, the

396
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,200
rock of the family because no
one can guess my emotions.

397
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,840
I'm always strong.
I'm always like steady and I

398
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,040
keep the family steady.
And so keeping my emotions to

399
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:13,360
myself is a sign of strength,
whereas it's kind of the

400
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:14,840
opposite because when you keep
those.

401
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,520
Those emot, you know this very
well, when you keep those

402
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,040
emotions like buried, buried,
buried, buried, buried, they're

403
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,080
going to come out in different
ways and it's going to be

404
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,560
unhealthy ways for the most
part.

405
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:29,080
And I think the outdatedness of
that is like, oh, I need in

406
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,960
order to be a strong masculine
man, I need to keep my emotions

407
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:33,880
to myself.
So people see me as a very

408
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:36,840
secure, confident leader of the
family, right?

409
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,120
I think that is a big one that
shows up a lot.

410
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:41,600
Yeah.
Even that notion of I keep it

411
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,600
together, the more accurate is
I'm pretending to keep it

412
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:46,240
together.
Yeah.

413
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,360
That's and then.
Other people buy the ACT until

414
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:50,160
you fall apart, hit rock bottom
and seek help.

415
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:54,640
Yes, 100 percent, 100%.
And I wish that I wish that

416
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,840
society would change like even
from like when, when little boys

417
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,760
like are in like the playground,
right?

418
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,040
Like, I wish that things were
set up so that there were more

419
00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:07,000
opportunities for men to talk
about these things from an

420
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,400
earlier age where women, like, I
remember being a little girl

421
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,120
playing with Barbies.
And just like even through

422
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,280
playing with Barbies, we would
talk about what's going on in

423
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,240
our day and like, what's like,
what did, what did she say?

424
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,320
In the playgrounds, there's
like, still communication and

425
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:24,200
still, like emotions being
dispersed.

426
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:28,080
Whereas like there's constantly
a need to hold your cards close

427
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,320
to your chest for men and for
boys, that is just so it's so

428
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,760
hard because these these
emotions need to be let out in

429
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,000
some way.
How do you help your clients

430
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,880
reframe vulnerability from being
seen as a weakness to something

431
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,160
that's actually attractive in a
relationship, perhaps?

432
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,440
Yeah, I think the reframe comes
what the, the technique that I

433
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,880
use is the is more is more
through mindfulness, right?

434
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,760
It's like, let's just take these
two situations, right?

435
00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:00,640
You could go through this date
and not share anything

436
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,080
vulnerable and then both of you
feel disconnected and both of

437
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,480
you have a bad time and then
you're back to where you were

438
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,320
before you even went On this
date, right?

439
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,880
Or you could go and like talk
about some things that happen in

440
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,520
your life that are maybe a
little bit more comfortable, but

441
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,560
at least you feel connected to
this person that you're going on

442
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,520
a date with this woman, this new
woman feels connected to you

443
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,200
because you've shared something
very, very nice and very

444
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,520
vulnerable and you've both have
level you, you both left with

445
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,480
some level of connectivity,
right?

446
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,680
Let's play through both of those
situations.

447
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,520
Situation A will leave you back
where you started, where

448
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,720
situation B, yes, it might be a
little bit just it might be a

449
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,200
little bit more discomfort
actually talking about certain

450
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,880
emotions, but at least you'll
have greater connection.

451
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,880
And then we go back to like,
what is the goal of you even

452
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,760
being here?
It's like, I want to find a

453
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,040
wife.
OK, well, that means being

454
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,520
vulnerable and having those
moments of connectivity where

455
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,200
it's like, OK, so like it's kind
of like very scientific.

456
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,680
How I take some of my clients is
like, OK, let's go through

457
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,560
situation A, situation B.
And what is your eventual goal?

458
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,120
And this is what we need to do
in order to get to this goal.

459
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:09,760
You can try it both ways and
then let's try it in the way

460
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,880
that gets towards your goal.
You know, a a lot of men that I

461
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,400
meet and myself, we can be very
black and white thinkers.

462
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,120
It's it's all or nothing.
So I want to get your thoughts.

463
00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,080
Can you be too vulnerable?
Like being vulnerable doesn't

464
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,160
mean on that first date, I
regurgitate all of my traumas

465
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,040
that I can am conscious of to
someone.

466
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,480
Is is that the proper sense of
vulnerability?

467
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,920
I mean, definitely not.
I think it's takes a balance.

468
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,040
I think what advice that I give
for men on the first date is

469
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:42,360
curiosity, right?
And I think a lot of complaints

470
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:45,880
that I get from my straight
girlfriends who go on these

471
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,520
dates is like, he never asked me
a single question.

472
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,520
He just kept talking about
himself for the whole 45 minutes

473
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:54,760
that we were at that restaurant
or hour and a half, right?

474
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:56,560
That is the number one
complaint.

475
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,160
He never asked me one question
about myself where So going in

476
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,200
there and regurgitating
everything about yourself and

477
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,000
kind of peacocking and being
like, OK, this is who I am.

478
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,240
I'm going to be this amazing
person, fall in love with me.

479
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,120
It's like it's not the right
approach, right?

480
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,880
And I think the advice that I
give to a lot of my my straight

481
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,960
men who are seeking whether a
girlfriend or a wife or whatnot,

482
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,480
is to be curious, right?
And so ask questions, but also

483
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,840
when you feel it's appropriate
to share, feel free to share

484
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,320
about your life.
But I think curiosity is the key

485
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,720
for those first dates.
Is there anything that stands

486
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:34,000
out as being the biggest
surprise to men after you've

487
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,600
worked with them for a while,
Like a a result from their own

488
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,120
mindfulness or their own
vulnerability or emotional

489
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:39,880
honesty?
What?

490
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,400
What surprises them?
You know, what's so crazy is

491
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:49,880
that the, the techniques that
some of them have learned

492
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,920
throughout the, you know, the
lesbor process, it's just not

493
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,400
just a for romantic love.
They're surprised that it

494
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,840
actually strengthened their
relationship with her dad or

495
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,800
with her mom or with her brother
that they haven't talked to in

496
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,720
five years.
And I, that is like the biggest

497
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,360
surprise to them.
Or they're like, holy moly, like

498
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,800
I'm now more reflective and more
vulnerable and more and more

499
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,400
open to connection with my
brother who I haven't talked to

500
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,000
in five years.
And I think that is so beautiful

501
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,760
because it's it first starts out
as connecting in a romantic way.

502
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,240
Whether it's single men who want
to connect, who want to have a

503
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,320
girlfriend or a wife or married
men who want to connect with

504
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,920
their wife again and have sex
more and like become those

505
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,520
people that they were once.
It always starts off with the

506
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,560
goal of romantic love.
But the moment these techniques

507
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:46,240
are utilized on in a routinely
basis, they use it for other

508
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:49,200
relationships in their life and
that actually really surprises

509
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,560
them because it helps strengthen
other relationships.

510
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:58,240
Do you think, and if so, why,
that this work is needed now

511
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,280
more than ever?
100% yes.

512
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,360
I feel like there's just,
there's so much junk on the

513
00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:09,120
Internet of like, like young men
consuming content that is so

514
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,280
riddled with toxic masculinity.
And, and I'm sure that you, you

515
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:15,840
our understanding of this as
well, right?

516
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,640
I'm not a young boy.
I don't know all of the, the

517
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,880
terrible things that are out on
the Internet that have to do

518
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,560
with like what it means to be a
man.

519
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,520
And this is how you be a man.
And this is not how to be a simp

520
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,840
or like all of this stuff.
There's so much out there and I

521
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:32,920
feel like it, it's, it's only
getting worse.

522
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:37,560
And I feel like men have to go
through this process and then

523
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,760
hit rock bottom to be like, oh,
everything that they told me

524
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,800
wasn't real, wasn't true.
It actually got me into more

525
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,680
trouble.
And it's going to keep happening

526
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,760
right?
When it's, if it's like a, like

527
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,040
a little boy finding a, a
teenage boy finding a YouTube

528
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:57,000
video of a, a toxic podcast,
which there is a lot of them out

529
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,240
there, and then trying to follow
that advice and then not

530
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,760
succeeding in whatever they were
trying to do.

531
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,240
And then doing that over and
over again because until they

532
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,360
crush their own spirit and it
happens over and over again.

533
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,520
And I think until men get to
that place of rock bottom,

534
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,320
they're not going to reach out
to some something like the

535
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:17,320
Lesboro, right?
They're going to follow the

536
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,360
advice of other toxic men.
And I feel like there's now more

537
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:23,480
than ever a need for this stuff
because there's so much other

538
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,160
garbage out on the Internet.
And if if there was a man

539
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,560
listening to us right now,
feeling disconnected, feeling

540
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,640
isolated, perhaps he's not.
He can sense rock bottom is

541
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,040
coming, but he's not there.
What's a a gentle first step you

542
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,440
might invite him to take?
I, I mean, obviously go to

543
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,560
thelesbro.com.
That's what that's, that's my

544
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,480
first, maybe that's a not too
gentle, but the lesbro.com

545
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,400
because I'd love to do even a
free 15 minute consultation just

546
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,240
to see where his head's at.
A lot of times in those free 15

547
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,280
minute consultations, like a lot
of men just talk to me about

548
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,760
what's going on in their head.
And a lot of times they solve

549
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,440
their own problems because it's
the first time that they've

550
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,520
articulated what's going on in
their heart.

551
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,120
And they're like, oh, OK, I just
need to do this and do this and

552
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:13,400
this because there is this,
this, this notion that so much

553
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,920
emotion is suppressed the moment
that they say it out loud, even

554
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,320
in a 15 minute consultation
there, there's like a weight

555
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,920
lifted off of their shoulders
because it's the first time it's

556
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,000
being articulated out loud.
And we work and sometimes they

557
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,360
don't even become a client.
And I'm totally OK with that

558
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,000
because it solved an immediate
need or immediate problem that

559
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,000
they had because it was a safe
space to just say things out

560
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,000
loud.
So I think that is like a gentle

561
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,040
first step, but also just, if
you don't want to, you don't

562
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:44,000
feel secure in that or just
just, it's not for you.

563
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,280
Even just sitting and breathing
would be a gentle first step,

564
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,400
right?
It's, and it's hard because

565
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,160
you're just, you just want me to
sit and breathe, just sitting

566
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,320
and breathing.
And one of the, one of the first

567
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,960
techniques that we use is like
literally just inhale through

568
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,440
your nose, exhale deeper, longer
through your mouth and just do

569
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,400
that for like 3 minutes.
Let us set a timer on your phone

570
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,840
and do that for three minutes.
And that's a gentle first step.

571
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,280
And and then book a consultation
on the lesboro.com.

572
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:14,400
What do you really want us to
do?

573
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,040
And and that's, and I want to
point that out that, you know,

574
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,000
meditation can be as simple as a
few deep breaths.

575
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,080
It doesn't mean go sit by a
candle for an hour, right?

576
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,080
Yeah, and I think there's
there's so much clarity that

577
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,000
comes from just sitting for
three minutes.

578
00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,240
You know what I mean?
You could be stirring about like

579
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,440
a problem that's something that
happened at work or a fight that

580
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,840
you just had with your wife.
And if you just stay for three

581
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,240
minutes, it literally, it's like
biology is magic.

582
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,600
It literally changes everything
in your body and you can make

583
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,040
better decisions.
So that is the gentle first step

584
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,640
that I would suggest.
Yeah, and when it comes to just

585
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,360
again, sharing someone, telling
someone, getting something off

586
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,800
your chest, all that great
stuff, or even journaling it

587
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,520
out, I I often find that the
worst place for our thoughts is

588
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,360
in our head.
Those darkest thing.

589
00:29:58,360 --> 00:29:59,920
We just room it over.
But yeah, if you say it, you

590
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:01,360
share with somebody, you'll feel
that relief.

591
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:02,320
If you write it down, journal
it.

592
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,360
You can then read it like, well,
that's ridiculous.

593
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,000
And you can be that witness from
your be be less reactive by not

594
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,360
just keep thinking that that
repetitive thought.

595
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,320
Yeah, one of my friends actually
mentioned something.

596
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,280
He's like the opposite of
depression is expression, right?

597
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,520
Literally expressing getting
things out of your body is

598
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,320
literally one of the antidotes
to depression.

599
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,000
It's like just saying it out
loud.

600
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,480
What's the best way for people
to connect with you and are you

601
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,800
like most active on any social
media platforms?

602
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,320
Yeah, I mean, I have an
Instagram at the Lesbro and but

603
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:40,360
most likely the website
isthelesbro.com LEZB ro.com.

604
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,360
I was tempted to say Zed because
I'm half Canadian, so I have a

605
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,000
LEZB ro.com, thelesbro.com.
But yeah, that's the just book a

606
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,000
free consultation.
You don't have to be a client,

607
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,680
doesn't matter.
I just want to talk to you.

608
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,200
And sometimes I just sit and
listen for 15 minutes and it

609
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,240
and, and give a little a, a few
remedies here and there.

610
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,920
And I don't even mind if you
don't become a client.

611
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,720
If you walk away with a simple
meditation technique and a few

612
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,960
practical solutions for your
problem, then then I'm happy.

613
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,920
It's not about money for me.
It's literally about I just want

614
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,520
to make this a better place
because I do see the ripple

615
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:17,200
effect throughout so many of my
clients lives.

616
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,520
Not only are they better with
themselves, they're better with

617
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,160
their spouses, they're better
with their kids, they're better

618
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,560
with their Co workers.
So if 115 minute session can

619
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,280
make that that ripple effect
happened, then I'm happy to do

620
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:29,280
it.
Cool.

621
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,320
And finally, what's one thing
you wish more men knew?

622
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,160
Oh, that you don't need to
perform to feel seen.

623
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,960
I think so many of us, you know,
we, we, we crave validation, men

624
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,320
or women, we crave validation.
And a lot of times I find like

625
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,160
with a lot of men, they, they
have to perform, they have to be

626
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,880
this other person that they are
not in order to feel loved and

627
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:58,800
connected to.
And they don't need to do that.

628
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:00,880
They just need to connect to
themselves, that's all.

629
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,880
Well, thanks so much for joining
us today, Asta and I wish you

630
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,960
fantastic luck and possible
franchising for the Lesbro,

631
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,040
whatever comes good for you.
I love it.

632
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,160
I love that so much.
Thank you so much Andy for

633
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,200
having me.
This was a great.

634
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,320
Thanks so much to Asta for such
a a fun and lively conversation.

635
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,000
You know what we talked about
today?

636
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:22,680
Emotional safety, mindfulness,
honesty.

637
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,240
Real connection is exactly what
I'm creating inside my authentic

638
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,400
AF community.
It's a space for men to drop the

639
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,960
masks, slow down, and be real
without competition or posture.

640
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,720
You can learn more about us and
join us at

641
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,600
realmenfield.org/group.
If today's episode stirred

642
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,360
something in you, don't wait for
rock bottom.

643
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,520
Act on it.
Connection starts with presence.

644
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,160
Presence starts with you
choosing yourself, so until next

645
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:50,960
time, be good to yourself.