Not Allowed to Die | Paws For Patrick

0:01 Hello and welcome to real men. Feel I'm your host author coach and healer and e-grant. Real men feel is here to remind men that they are human beings. Imagine that and have the right, the desire, the need to own an Express all of their emotions. You can learn more about how I help people do that at the Indy Grant.com. My guest today is Dan McClure, Dan is the mental health director for pause, for Patrick, a non-profit organization dedicated to connecting young people. With mental health, issues to emotional support animals. He is also a school Social worker a therapist in private practice and the host of the podcast not allowed to die where he explores the dilemmas he sees clients facing in his work. It Dane was one of the people that reached out to be in multiple ways and multiple times during what I now refer to as my dark months.

0:48 When I finally read his messages, I was really psyched to connect with him. I've already been on his show, not allowed to die. So glad to return the interview favor. So Dan, welcome to real men field. Thank you. I'm I'm a big fan, so I'm very excited to be here. And yeah, this is just exciting to connect with your audience, because again, I think men connecting with their feelings whatnot is just so incredibly important. So this is a thrill for me. Awesome cool. I love love to make dreams come true. So let's start with some of the work. You do, like what, what's the range of age for the kids? You deal with it school while working a high school. So again it's from you know, the youngest will ever have it high schools 13 to, you know? The high school does service students up to 22 years old. But they're at a different program and then in my private practice, I have usually stay with the teens to people in their 50s or might like my current clients and then with posture Patrick were generally helping people who are from you know six years old is the youngest in the family that we've helped all the way up.

1:50 We've helped people as old as 89 but we tend to focus on young people which we Define as 20 like 26 and under General. A is where our main focus is and what got you interested? Did in sort of mental health, work and being a social worker and a counselor. Well, I have a lot of family with mental health issues and so all growing up, whether it was, you know, an aunt with schizophrenia and Uncle with bipolar or whatnot. It was just very natural for us to be discussing mental health things. And I always knew I wanted to help people but I thought I wanted to do it by going into politics and I worked on a couple campaigns and I thought well this is gross. I don't want to just worry about who's We're and donations for something. And so I got a job.

2:35 I thought I want to be a lobbyist. So I got a job with a place called the center for violence, Interruption. And I thought I was going to go down to Springfield. Illinois, and Lobby, for better laws for gun, violence and whatnot. But they said we need you to go into Chicago public schools and work with kids. Have been kicked out to teach them about socialization, like mail socialization and how they learn and because and how that leads to violence and so I did that and I fell in love with direct service and I I've kind of really never looked back, very cool, the politics part, especially interest me. So you quickly realized it wasn't for you in your brief period. There did you meet politicians that went into this to be of service and quickly realized that this isn't the way to serve? Or did you meet anyone with your kind of initial mindset? I met a couple of people like that and I'm not more people. The vast majority of people I was working with were people who Started out idealistic in their college days and whatnot and then quickly realized that it was all about fundraising and it was really about organizing dinners and it was about deciding like who was scratching who's back and so yeah. The people, it became a lot about logistics, more than it was about issues.

3:45 And I found that it was like, well when do you get to work? She work on the writing of a law or helping anybody and and that part is, they are too sometimes. But the vast majority of the people, I went to college with or the guys who were older than me and my fraternity who Gotten into that life, they lost that connection pretty quickly and it was more about can I get on this next bigger campaign? So I can be a staffer to this Congress person who's going places as opposed to really caring about the issues. Well, I'm glad you found your best Avenue to be truly of service. Much better than setting up, dinners in logistics, I hope so. And as I mentioned, your podcast is called not allowed to die which is really one of my favorite all-time podcast out.

4:28 Yells I've ever heard. Tell me the significance of that name. Well, as I always say on my podcast and to all of the students that I work with, I don't care what you do to get through the day. So unfortunately, a lot of the students, I work with, they use drugs, they used alcohol there, they engage in self-injury and they can be very hard on themselves about that and self blaming and I'll say I'm glad that you did whatever it took to get you here. Because you're here now. And we want to make healthier choices as often as we can. But do It takes to get you through, you're just not allowed to die. If I'm going to work with you, you have to be committed to staying alive and working on it. And that's, that's sometimes a much tougher ask than we, wish it was. I was actually referencing.

5:08 You just a few minutes ago, I had a student in my office. And she, she said, I wonder if I'm just always suicidal because, you know, it's just always going to be this way and if it's more, if it's my chemicals or if it's whatever else and you know in her family, she's got a huge family history of mental health, all over the place. Ace and, you know, her parents are going through divorce and her younger brother is transgender and there's just a lot of stress in the family and things like that, but she is incredible. And I said, you may go through periods where it's better for seven years and then things drop down again. But we can make it through that. We just have to end that. Sometimes that suicidality is that it feels like an exit like from the pain it's not about wanting to be dead. It's about wanting to know that they're I'm not going to always be trapped with that.

5:55 Pain and referencing some of oil. You and I Talked about and just that it's not a logical but we can give you better options and that's that's all we want to do and that's what I focus on. A lot of my day. Awesome. Awesome. Well it's I'm mmm, you know, it's saddens me that your day is filled with needing to do that, but I'm also glad you're there to do that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a job that we wish we could put ourselves out of business. But if I think there's a then I could go into just helping to coach people, to get a better job or something else like that. But Have you had kids that can't make that commitment? Like I don't want to be better. Like I can't promise you. I that I will live through today when they do that.

6:38 And yeah that happens. And that's one of the primary questions will ask in a suicide risk evaluation and I say, can you contractor safety? Can you promise me? You're going to be alive tomorrow and if they get be a maybe then that means we probably have to go to the hospital but I had another student earlier today who again she was having suicidal thoughts. Again, she's been hospitalized many times and she's like, don't, I don't want to necessarily be dead today but I'm afraid I'm going to get back there and in her case it just it's more of a question of You know, I don't know if I want to keep trying and so it's not, I'm going to do anything immediately, but I'm not sure this really feels worth it. And I say again, and based on her, she's 15 years old, her limited life experience. If most of your life has been pain, why would she? She wants to believe me, and all these other adults who keep saying it's going to get better, just hang on, but everything, in her life experience is pushing against that. And so, yes, there are kids, who will say, it just doesn't feel worth it and I don't know other student who's not. So, Idol at all, but he was just saying that again today, he was just saying, like, I he wishes his just like, Adams would just fall apart and he would just have to stop. Hold trying to hold himself together. He doesn't want to bother his parents, he doesn't he'll say I don't want to waste your time.

7:50 And I said, even if we're sitting in silence, you're never wasting my time, but he's just like it just want to disintegrate and he's not going to do anything. But yes, it actively engaging in treatment and help feels pointless to him at this point. And that's, that's tough to try to give because again, we can't, I can't. Or hope into their ear or what not. I can just reflect back that. I my belief in them and hope that, that, that does something for them. Right. You know, it's so refreshing to hear that kids today, can more openly talk about it, but when I was 15 it was only in a mental hospital. But I heard anybody else talk about suicide, which just made it seem like even at just a crazier thought like how how dare I have this contemplation. So I'm glad that kids are comfortable enough to to speak openly about it and it went Found in my life that no adult ever.

8:40 Told me my 20s, were way better than my teens and my thirties were better than my 20s. And my 40s were better than my 30s. And even with peers, have depression and suicidal thinking in those decades as well. But, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to go be in high school again, but my dad always told me that high school with the best years of your life. So, I often like, if, when I need someone bringing person that's in like, well, good for you high schools, not your Peak. That's that's one thing I can guarantee you if you feel like so horrible. So that's one possible way to spin it. But yeah, I do that. I'll often say, hey, middle school for most, if I interviewed 100 80 year olds, the word about the worst time in their life, it was probably middle school era and then High School tends to be about of the middle school. And it just like you said, 20 can be better 30 ski better. And so it doesn't, if you are peaking so often we miss, remember our brain cuts out, all the boring Gunk, it remembers the highs and remembers a lows.

9:36 And so for people, Who had more highs the lows in high school? They kind of long for those Highs. But the reality is, the vast majority of high school is just, you know, boring Town, French test, trying to find someone to sit with at lunch, it's not terrible. Is that it? But yeah, we can do better. We can do better than that. Yeah, cool. Now, do you ever are you are allowed. Would you ever talk to teenagers on your show? Yeah, I mean, it's something that it would either require again parent. Probably parent consent. And I've had a number of my students request. Has to be on the show and I'm just getting better with the technology to be able to sort of record with them. And so I have students that, you know, particularly my transgender students or whatnot, who can share a perspective that maybe a lot of people aren't as familiar with that.

10:20 I do want to get out into the world because it's, you know, it's one thing hearing from me, the dilemmas that my students are facing, but I think it means so much more to people to hear it from their actual voices. Yeah, for sure. Totally agree. So what was there? Something specific that prompted you to start the podcast? I think I lost a friend of mine to a heart attack and in I did his eulogy and in doing his eulogy I was asking everyone there to write letters to his children about you know what, stories, they remembered things that he did and I thought to myself, you know, I actually have some heart issues and I thought I want to people have often told me to write a book or whatnot, but frankly, a lot of people don't read these.

11:07 Today. It's so I thought, well, as kind of this, this podcast is a bit of a love letter to my children that if they ever wanted to hear my voice or my thoughts on anything, so I hope other people are getting something out of it, but every recording to me is saying, like, here's a little way Dad's thinking about things that if they were lose me tomorrow, they would still have. They could look up. Oh, what do you think about cognitive behavioral therapy or some of the topics would be more interesting and less interesting than others but I think that's what that's what got me kick start and it's time, it's time to do this. Plus, I am a podcast junkie. I'm dying, I'm subscribed to 85 podcasts and I listened to quite a few of, I listen to two and a half times speed. So when I hear your voice, it's often going a lot faster than isn't like right now.

11:51 Wow. I mean, I feel like I'm I talk too fast at normal speed sometimes so I can imagine me double speed, but a good good for you to keep up with all that. What age are your children right now? My older guy is 11 and he just had his first day of middle school. School orientation today. And then, my younger guy is seven, you mentioned having a family history. Do you worry about what your lineage means for them? Absolutely. And I remember, I remember my dating life. I was dating this girl who she had a diagnosis of bipolar disorder. And I remember part of the reason I thought, you know, again it wasn't the whole thing. But by breaking up is like well with my family history with her genetics, that just seems like a bad. You know, that very Risky investment. But yeah, I worry about every time, my kids may be overly emotional about something, I worry, you'll get, will they be back?

12:44 So I have You know, several nephews and nieces who have been hospitalized for being suicidal. I did, I lost one of my nephew's to Suicide the last January so knowing. But I think the only advantage of having a family with this kind of history is I will get my kids if they're showing things like we already had my younger guy working with the school, social worker, you know, during his first grade year just because again, he has some really strong emotional reactions to thing. And I think by normalizing that. Hey, it's okay. When you get sometimes my Gravel just he'll start crying and say I'm sad and I don't know why and I'll say that's okay. You're just having too many like your emotions are coming faster right now than your words can come. And so normalizing that for him and saying again, that it's okay not to be okay.

13:31 And so planting that seed early on and that it's okay to get help, I'm hoping that that will be the key to. They may always have some challenges and reframing this idea that whatever we think of as a weakness can be our super power and that you No, I my favorite superhero Spider-Man and one of Spider-Man's Powers is Spider Sense. And in our day-to-day lives anxiety is kind of like Spider Sense it alerts you to things that could be potential dangers. Now what we have to do with anxieties, we have to learn to ignore it when it's not a real danger and I'm sure Spider-Man had to do that all the time. It's like, oh, that pizza delivery guy is not going to punch me in the back of the head but in depressions, superpower can be heightened empathy.

14:12 And I went through a depressive period when I was in Middle School and I think that's also so much of what made me empathetic to friends to family to other people like that to realize and the incredible impact that adults had a my life. When I was 13 years old by just giving a little bit of belief and saying like, hey, at that right time when that person comes in and they show a belief in you that can change the course of your life. So I think I hope for my kids. If they do have mental health challenges, we can eventually help them reframe them, as Something that makes you special and different but not less than that, that notion of how powerful an adult believing in you is really to, like it just brought to my, so I, I can still remember and the fifth grade. I was goofing off in gym class doing something. I wasn't supposed to whatever it was and the the teacher pulled me aside and just said, you know, Andy, you're going to be a force of nature.

15:07 Like, you have this your charismatic and you don't even realize it, and your shoulders are really broad. You going to be this Big man, you're just I know it but if you goof off and don't pay attention, you're going to blow all that potential that you have. And I was like, what really? Like I think, you know, I just felt like this fat unquoted kid. I'm just trying to hide and not be noticed in your gym class and he's talking about how I'm, like, like my physical stature is intimidating and like, wow, but I've never forgot that. So, such a casual comment but it's someone taking the time to like, you know, look at child in the eyes and say, Something good, something positive, something hopeful about the future? Yeah, can just be a tremendous impact.

15:48 Now, you mentioned Contracting for safety earlier and I want to kind of get back to that. And like I know what that means because I've lived through many of them. But for someone that's not familiar with that term. Could you could you explain what? That is sure. It's again for a mental health. Professional or what not? When were assessing someone we might say again, like, can you promise me? It's a promise made by the client that they are going to be alive and that they're going to sometimes when your A safety plan with someone. That who will you contact if things get worse or whatnot? And people who've never been through depression, will often ask me? Well, why wouldn't they just lie? Why wouldn't they just say and often as people get really depressed, they start to lose cognitive flexibility. So if they just can't think of other Alternatives and often, they're so exhausted. By the way, they're feeling like that. They they won't bother to lie.

16:34 They and I have had multiple clients who have said, I was mid suicide attempt but I made myself throw up the pills I made myself Elf do whichever because I remember that promise that I made you. So we don't know exactly why it works. We do know though, a clay that Contracting for safety. Does people tend to follow through on their promises? And it's when they are showing reservations on that, that is a gigantic red flag. So, we're looking for things. Like, when were assessing risk, does a person have a plan? If they have a plan, is their plan realistic, how are they thinking about death and the afterlife? You know, so we're taking all of those things into account. I remember, I had Girl, and I asked her, well, what do you think? It's like to be dead in her face?

17:15 Just lit up with a glow of happiness. She's like, I'd be with my grandma again and I said oh no like this like this is, yeah. So we have to Justice taking all those factors into account of what is what is the entire suicidal risk here? But then when they make those contracts and then saying like how what do they need to help support that contract for safety and what? And when are we going to assess again? Because we never want to say, oh, okay you're not suicidal, you're free to go and see any year. Here. It means we have to keep assessing until those Suicidal Thoughts are not coming. So, there are some kids. I might literally make a contract for safety with every single day and say, okay, coming back in tomorrow until we're not having intrusive - Suicidal Thoughts. Yeah.

17:56 You know, we talked about this in one of our earlier conversations which was not a show. We actually just talked to for the sake of talking and I was always like I would lie and manipulate with the best of them. But when when someone said, can you promise me? You're safe. Can you promise you? You're gonna show up tomorrow that you're gonna live through today. I could say, yes. And I, yeah, I meant it, and I was like, what sort of weirdo am I that the, the strongest committed I'll make is only when I'm, you know, at my lowest. I'll promise this guy. I just met that. Yeah, I'll keep going. And I've had that I've, you know, I would look back and like, oh, I really want to do something bad right now. Like I promised that therapist that, that I'd stick around like, all right.

18:37 And so it's really cool to hear you explain it and because yeah and I just thought him, I just bizarrely. You know, it's weird. I'll be honest at my lowest moments or actually, sometimes I thought since that since this promise is so important, this is truly another sign that and I don't really want to die. Hmm. And so again I think it's that especially an adult to a teenager or child like someone else believe in you that much and asking you to promise to stick around. There's such a power in that that I never appreciated when I was on the other side of that. When I get I'm very manipulative. And but what I always say to the students is I'm never gonna manipulate with you with lies.

19:18 I'm only going to manipulate you with truth and I say, you know, if you die, I love you. It's going to destroy me, but that's not the reason to stay alive. I don't want you to stay alive for your friends, for your mother. For me, I want you to stay alive because I really truly believe your life is going to get better. But, you know, we do ask manipulative question, sometimes, like, who would find your body and you know, like things like that are You know, like they can stagger person and take them home to the reality. They don't want to hurt other people and of the hundreds of people, I've worked with who made suicide attempts, none of them. None of the people I've worked with who made a suicide attempt to really want it to die. They just wanted the pain to stop. And so giving any other out for how that can happen but there is and if this sounds crazy but it people are more, they would rather face death, then face the shame of going and asking their family for help asking because and unfortunately this is the truly tragic thing. Very frequently.

20:13 When we tell parents your child is suicidal, like they didn't want to tell you that though they're just doing it for attention. It's like, no no one's doing that. At that point for just attention, if they are. And if they want attention that badly, there's something else really wrong there because there should be a better way to break a window. Do something else like that go, you know? Like but the like if that's the way they're trying to get attention, we need something's wrong with their system and their way of getting help. Yeah, I've always heard hated that phrase because I'm like well then give this some attention. All right. That's an easy prescription to fill or the other one. I always hated talking about a suicide attempt, you know? Oh the it's just, they just asked him, is just a very, they're asking for help. They just looking for help and attention. And the like every other way in case, if someone is in the ocean drowning says, help help you go in and help them, but it like a suicide attempt was a cry for help. Oh, we can ignore it just a cry for help. They didn't really, really want to die. Um, well then all the more reason to help them. Well, I think that people don't realize, what a big deal, it is is something called a parachute.

21:12 That attempt an apparent suicide attempt is a suicide attempt that we know would not be lethal. So I person who they make a like, news for themself out of like, dental floss or whatnot, or they are like just using a butter knife to kind of like slid along their wrists or doing things like that. Everyone knows that it's not likely to be lethal. But what there it's it's a very big deal and dangerous because they are rehearsing. Yeah. And when they're rehearsing that thing and it means they're doing it with a plan in their mind and this Is like major danger sign. And so somebody seeing that are hearing that might think. Oh they're just doing that for attention. When in reality like this is. Hey, this is one of our last chance as we've got to move. Now to give this person more help when the pair of suicide attempts are showing up, I can remember visiting a family with friends of my dad. I was in Middle School, and the parents were making fun of their daughter because the night before, she had attempted suicide via an overdose of aspirin and they're all Lee mocking her for thinking that would do anything and I wanted to punch them both in the face because about a month earlier, it was the first suicide attempt. I remember I swallowed a whole bottle of aspirin because I thought you could OD on anything. I thought anything right in the in the wrong amount of the right amount depending how I wanted to look at it would get me out of here.

22:33 So yeah, I was horrified that they were doing that and it's like yeah I want to I still want to go fight them. But I never I never met that feeling again. That was my only experience with them and stuck with me for my entire life. But like everything counts tonight and I had lots of the practice the rehearsing. I had, you know, the cut marks on my, my wrists that weren't really like, can I do this? When would I be will I bleed yet? Is this knife sharp enough? I had all that sort of nonsense. So yeah and everything. Counts, everything matters. Yeah. Yeah. And so that the diminishing of people's feelings and again that That's what gets so many men to internalize their feelings or express it through anger as opposed to. Because when the idea of being mocked for having feelings for having, you know, just this idea of indecision or whatnot, it just it makes a person.

23:29 Say forget it. I would rather, I would literally rather die than the expose myself to that shame in that ridicule. And so, that's some of the one of the things that were pushing against with so many families and giving families to education, most of most families Of their children. But there are four there, unfortunately, they're more afraid of creating soft children who are dependent, then they are of make, they're doing the things that make their children might not survive to adulthood. And so it, we again, we have to say, we're prepare the child for the path, not the path of the child, we're not trying. I'm never trying to say just toddle your children, but we do have to listen to them and say are we on a sustainable path? And are we doing things that are going to make this child?

24:10 Feel like they can become an And in healthy adult. Now they have the skills to do that. And whenever we're belittling someone for diminishing them, that's not helping them to become an independent successful. Healthy adult. So in today's Times of so much separation and you know, almost Civil War level of discourse politically socially. Are you seeing more of that showing up in the lives of kids? Yeah, I think a feeling that just, you know, for some families like okay, we're not raising a Snowflake here and you know, just, oh, the particularly for certain families, this idea of expression, even the term like political correctness.

24:50 Well, when you say that term, you are saying things don't matter, unless they affect me or the people that I care about, you know, because really whenever we're something is politically, correct? And you all were saying, is we want to give Credence to other people's feelings and a different perspective and way of looking at things. So we only are, it's a matter to management or I was listening to something Ibaka. Hodgins squared today about is cancel culture, toxic, but even even this idea of cancel culture, it is diminishing. This idea, you know, just be saying, hey, people's feelings matter. If you can go through life, without going out of your way to hurt people's feelings, try to do that. If you do just apologize for and recognize it, it's not asking anyone to radically transform the way they're operating.

25:34 It's just about an awareness and so, but, unfortunately, it's become somewhat political to just acknowledge and And we have had so many more kids since the pandemic come out as gender non-binary or transgender. And I think while kids were on doing school over computers and things like that and they could turn their cameras off a lot, more of them, were able to explore. Hey, I can be whatever gender I want. I can be whatever gender really impacts me. And so when we came back from the pandemic, it was like, you know, flowers that sprouted overnight. They kids were everywhere and it's just an interesting. So I'm seeing things changes on. Fuel all over the place but it creates a level of anxiety for kids because anytime someone sees someone be judgmental about any other group, it makes them Wonder.

26:24 Well what might they say about me? You know, so if I hear this, my family member and their rallying, you know, against black lives matter or against anything else, hey what if I expressed that I'm Different in some other way, it doesn't feel safe and it gives them this message. I have to just be quiet and hide Who I Really Am. Hide my feelings. So that's hard. Yeah. Anytime someone is witnessing and other be blamed or shun than they imagined. Oh, what if, what if I'm another or realizing? I know I am in other but nobody knows it yet. And yeah, yeah. Yeah, life isn't easy but no but it's worth living. Yeah, and that's that's a huge that that took me decades to get it really did, but that if Ike fair, if I could enforce some class at every school system it would be the you know your life is worth living class. But what and I think if we if we view life as being unsuccessful, if we're not happy then, lots of people are going to feel like they're unsuccessful.

27:22 Life isn't promised us happiness life promises as an experience and I think The more we can say the ups and the Downs, like, when we go to a movie or a play, we would never go to a movie or play. That was nothing but just happy. Snapshot happy, snapshot we want some drama? Some conflict, I was asking to student today is friction good or bad and if first she was like, well, bad and it's like, well then we couldn't go anywhere. We need friction but too much is wearing our skin off. It's terrible. So that's we were not supposed to be happy all the time. We're here for an experience and if we once we can Embrace that, that even though Hounds are there interesting. There's something different. And so again, I would rather, when I was a coach, I would say, I would rather lose a lacrosse game, you know, 2:44, then when a baseball game 928 because I'd rather play playing lacrosse.

28:09 I yeah. So that's like even losing can be a memory, it can be an experience and let's drink that up. So you have lots of cool ways that your of service. So I want to move on to another one. So tell me about pause for Patrick. What is that? So Patrick was my student and during the pandemic during May of 2020, he took his own life and he and I had been very close, but he was one of those people for whom therapy, really didn't work. He had a very hard time expressing himself. In words when he was having a hard day throughout his high school career, he would just want to go home and be with his dog and that was all he wanted and his parents. They tried everything they tried therapy, they tried medication, they sent him to a therapeutic School. And sent him to a Wilderness Program and, you know, they loved him.

29:00 But again the pain that he was feeling inside, he just could not express. So when he died there was a GoFundMe that was made for the family and the family said you know this is nice but we don't really need this money. We want to do something with it to honor Patrick's memory in his legacy and so they said what would again really he cared about was animals and the impact that animals can have soap officer, Patrick, has organization. That's dedicated to bringing the Love of Animals, the people who need it. The most And so, we do that in two ways, we help people who have mental health disorders. Get emotional, support animals and we also have a team of Therapy Dog. Handlers who bring therapy dogs to different? I'll bring the schools or hospitals. So for people who can't have animals at all, they can have contact with animals.

29:44 So there was unfortunately. In Highland Park Illinois, there was a shooting at the July 4th parade. So we brought therapy dogs to where the people were, you know, that in the days and weeks, after we brought therapy dogs to just be with people, So they can pet them and, you know, decompress and whatnot. So my role is the mental health advisor, so when a person contacts pause for Patrick, they get assigned a wish granter, who will be sort of their case manager. Some people need help getting an animal. So we can pay up to $500 to help person acquire an animal. And then if they need training for that animal and we're not talking about service dog training. We're talking about like General obedience type training but we can pay up to $750 for them. So that the dog isn't, you know, getting him kicked out of their apartment, if not Park, King too much, it's not doing whatever.

30:27 And then I, as one of the therapists in our team, might write a assess, a person, and then write an Esa letter. So they can have that animal in their apartment, or their college dorm or whatnot. And so again, our goal just to help whoever needs it. Awesome. Handsome and is this, is this local to the Chicago area only or know so far. We've helped people in 29 States and you know, so it's we're actively recruiting volunteers, and particularly therapists in all different. It's because you know, technically people are supposed to be with Telehealth. They've allowed some reciprocity and opening things up, but for example, California in particular, the therapist has to be in the state, you know, for the NES a letter to be valid. So I can't just necessarily do yes. A letter for someone in California, even though I'm a licensed clinician Illinois.

31:15 So but yeah. So we're recruiting people and we help people all over so they don't need to be in Illinois for us to help them out. Awesome. Dana want to give you one a chance to find out more information about you and the podcast and pause for Patrick. So, is there one place to go? They covers that all or what do we need to mention? What wise I would say, people should go to pause for Patrick dot org and find out more about posture, Patrick, they can find my bio on there. And then if they do, they, if they are interested in the podcast, they can just go to. They can just Google search not allowed to die podcast, and then it'll take whether they listed on a podcast or whether they listen on Android, they'll find Thanks to Stitcher. I mean whatever that is that where they would like to listen and be able to rate it, but I would encourage please anybody go to pause for Patrick and spread the word about that. Because we feel like there are so many young people who could truly benefit and who might be able to have whether having a cat, a dog, whatever.

32:11 In their home, can make a tremendous difference in their mental health because no therapist is going to be there for you. Three in the morning but your dog, your cat. When you wake up with a bad dream, they might be able to be there and that can make all the difference in the world. Ya know from personal experience. I guarantee that that can make all the difference in the world. And yeah, I've survived many times and, you know, down to the moments that I didn't think I was going to get through due to a pet, so that's awesome. Before I Let You Go Dan one, final question, Is there one thing that you wish more men knew? That their value as men is, it has to be determined by them.

32:51 My favorite quote comes from Faulkner's, the sound and the Fury, and it's a teach men as the Arbiter of his own virtue. Meaning, you know, if you the father is talking to his son and he's the son is trying to justify waiting stick up her sister and he's saying Hey listen if you did the wrong thing and you convinced me, you did something right, what good is it if you did the right thing and I don't believe you, it doesn't matter. You have to be able to look in the mirror and every day like that. That's your only judge and we have to stop setting ourselves. An example of comparison to any other person. You have value every day just being on this planet, your presence here is enough. Then if you do anything else to help another person that's a bonus, but until you believe that it doesn't matter. Stop trying to prove your manliness your Worth to anybody else.

33:39 When you, once you can prove it to the guy in the mirror, everything else will take care of itself. Totally agree. Well, thanks. Dan. As always, I always loved the conversations and and all the ways of service and value that you are our being and bringing into the world and want to thank everyone for joining us today. Wherever you were discovering real men. Feel, Please Subscribe, follow, like, share, do whatever. The thing is, that's allowed on the platform that you're listening to post. Review a comment, share this with somebody. As always, you can reach out to me at real men. Feel at gmail.com, if you want to explore, what your life might be, like, with more authenticity Focus. Free Clarity call with me, by visiting the handy, Grant.com, talk. And until next time, be good to yourself.