Presence Over Perfection For Dads: The Engaged Father Project

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I think helping fathers
understand not only that it's OK

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to be vulnerable, but that
there's this pretty incredible

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power that comes along with
being vulnerable and just being

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able to raise your hand and say,
like, I don't have all the

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answers.
And not only is that OK, but

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it's an incredible first step to
like real meaningful growth.

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Field.

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I'm your host, Andy Grant.
You can visit theandygrant.com

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to learn more about me.
You know, a lot of men want to

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be great fathers, but stress,
pressure and old patterns keep

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getting in the way.
Today's guest, John Horde knows

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that struggle first hand.
He went from stressed out

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reactive parenting to becoming
deeply present with his kids.

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And now he helps other fathers
to do the same thing through the

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Engaged Father Project.
This is a conversation about

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emotional regulation,
intentional parenting, and

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redefining what strong
fatherhood really looks like.

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Let's do it.
Hello John, and welcome to REAL

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Men Feel.
Yeah.

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Thank you for having me, Andy.
You know, you do know many men

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want to be present, authentic,
grounded fathers, but they find

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themselves being distracted,
overwhelmed, reactive to things.

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What do you see as the biggest
disconnect between the intention

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of fathers and how they
actually?

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Act, That's a great question.
You know, I think a lot of times

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it's just not not looking
inward, right?

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It's kind of like staring at the
sun, right?

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It's painful to look into a
mirror that might show us, you

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know, where we're not getting
things right.

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You know, as fathers, I think we
typically take a lot of pride in

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being a provider and, you know,
doing the hard things and, you

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know, sacrificing ourselves for
the betterment of our kids.

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And those things kind of feel
noble.

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And there's a lot of pride that
is kind of built into that.

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But I've been spending a lot of
time just thinking about like,

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what is it that we're avoiding?
Like what are the things that we

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think might allow us to grow or
to change in a way that would

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benefit those around us?
But it's just maybe a little bit

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too uncomfortable to do it.
So I think that's the biggest

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disconnect, honestly.
It's that it's that painful

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acceptance of I have flaws, I'm
willing to open myself up to see

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them because I know what's on
the other side is worth it.

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Was there a point in your life
that you realized I'm becoming

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the father?
I said I never would.

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Well, professionally, yes, like
I, I set out, I, I went to art

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school.
So I remember being in high

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school saying, you know, I want
to go a different path than my

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dad did.
And my brother was eight years

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older than me and he, you know,
kind of went to business and

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marketing and advertising path.
And I remember thinking, I just

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want to, I want to do something
different.

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I don't want to, I don't want to
do business.

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And so I went to art school and
I got a job out of college, you

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know, working in an art
department.

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And within this same company, I
worked there for 18 years.

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I eventually got offered a
position that seemed really

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attractive at the time because
of all of the, you know, the

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perks and the status that came
along with it, where I switched

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roles and I went from being in a
creative capacity to being in

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more of a regular business
capacity.

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And so I, I switched gears
because I was, I was attracted

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to the material things that
would come along with making

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that switch.
And so I kind of, I fell into a

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professional path that I said I
would never fall into.

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And as a result of that stress,
anxiety and, and, and all of the

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things that came along with
this, you know, new career path,

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that is what basically forced me
into becoming the type of father

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that I didn't want to become
like where, you know, full of

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good intentions.
I, I was a good dad and I think

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anybody would tell you that.
But, you know, my frustrations

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were just barely underneath the
surface level.

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And it wouldn't take a whole lot
to expose those things.

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And you know, when that was
happening, you know, when those

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things would sort of erupt, you
know, then then I was able to

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see pretty clearly that, you
know, this isn't the type of dad

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that I want to be in.
You know, this is not the type

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of husband that I want to be for
my wife.

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So that's what that's what
really showed those things to

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me.
Yeah.

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And in my experience, in the
experience of most men I come

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across, the men have been taught
emotional suppression, not

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emotional regulation.
So it was that your experience?

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Yeah, I think so.
I think it's pretty standard and

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I I certainly fell into that.
So how did you personally learn

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to change that?
Well, in the, in the, in the

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point in my life when things got
really hard, stress and anxiety

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at an all time high had my first
panic attack, which is, is an

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awful thing to experience.
When things got really

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challenging for me, I, I, I
found a coach.

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I, I wasn't looking for a life
coach.

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And at the time, if you would
have asked me what a life coach

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was, I would have, I would have
given you the wrong answer.

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I, I would have told you that a
life coach is for somebody that

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is just lacking life skills.
They can't get their stuff

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together and they just need like
basic skills to their life so

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they can go out and support
themselves.

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So I, I started working with a
coach and they, they quite

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literally changed how I, how I
saw and experienced my life.

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And for me, that was really the
entry point into into all of

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this, you know, self exploration
and personal development and

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just getting really clear on,
you know, not only the type of

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dad that I wanted to be for my
kids, but the type of person

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that I wanted to be on a, on a
day-to-day basis.

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Yes, for the people around me
that I care about, but also for

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myself.
Yeah.

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One thing that I think it gets,
you know, it, it's mislabeled

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and misunderstood, but I find
that if more men were truly

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selfish and that they wanted to
feel good and, and enjoy their

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lives more like that
repercussion is really positive.

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Everybody around us, but we're,
you know, we're taught that

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selfishness is bad.
But I, I find healthy

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selfishness can actually end up
being rather selfless.

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Yeah, yeah.
And I like what you said there.

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And I, it makes me think about,
you know, filling your own cup.

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It's something that I say to my
kids all the time.

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I've shortened it.
And it's just like, hey, let's

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fill cups.
You know, if one of them kind of

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makes a snide remark to their
sibling or it's just, you know,

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something kind of cutting, like,
hey, let's fill cups.

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Meaning, you know, that we as a
parent or as an adult that we

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want to do things intentionally
in our lives that allow our cup

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to be full and to serve others
from what overflows from that

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cup and to not prioritize
helping everybody else around us

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at our own expense.
And I mean, it's, it's like,

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it's the oxygen mask thing,
right?

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The adult puts the mask on 1st
and then you help your kids.

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It's that sort of healthy
selfishness.

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I I do think is is incredibly
valuable and often overlooked

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like you said.
So what led you to the creation

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of the Engaged Father project?
Well, so that job I was telling

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you about, I worked there for
about 18 years.

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I, I started there part time,
ended up vice president, you

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know, thinking all along the way
that if I just get one more

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promotion or, you know, get a
salary increase, that, you know,

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happiness will be there waiting
for me like a pot of gold at the

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end of the rainbow.
And, and I got to a point where

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I realized that's just not true.
And so I was at a crossroads.

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And like I said, I'd worked with
a coach and it changed my life.

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And so I started thinking, you
know, maybe I could maybe I

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could become a coach.
You know, I love being in that

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space.
If I could help people the way

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that I was helped, you know, my
life was changed.

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If I could support somebody else
to change their life in a

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meaningful way, like how cool is
that?

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And like if I could also pay my
bills while doing that.

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Like it just seemed like an
awesome opportunity is like,

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check, check, check.
Like those things are

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incredible.
Like those things are three

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things that I I want to, I want
to hitch my wagon to those three

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things.
And so, yeah, I was left to make

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a decision of do I want to
continue down this path at my,

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the, the career that I've been
on for a long time, or go out on

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my own and start something new.
And I took some time to reflect

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on it and said, you know what?
You know, I was, I was sitting

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on my deck.
It was a sunny day.

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And I, I, I or casted myself, I
visioned myself on my deathbed

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at the end of my life, looking
back on that exact moment in

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time where I was sitting on my
deck contemplating this life

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decision.
And through that lens of, you

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know, what would I be most proud
of in my final days?

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You know, which decision would I
want to make in that moment?

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And it and it became crystal
clear to me.

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And so I went and got certified
as a life coach, went through an

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incredible program that was
really intense and

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transformational and grew so
much going through that process

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and made some amazing friends
and, you know, came out on the

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other side as a life coach.
And at that time, I was calling

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myself a success coach where the
concept was like, you know, hey,

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you're, you're, you're working
hard and you're being a provider

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and you've got all these goals,
you know, that might be waiting

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until retirement.
Like, let's not defer your

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happiness until then.
You know, let's whatever it is

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about retirement that sounds
really attractive to you, Like,

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let's find a way to pull some of
that stuff into your life today

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so you're not waiting to be
happy.

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And that was starting to work.
And I was working with clients

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and getting great results.
And one of my friends and peers

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that I went through the coaching
certification process with

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emailed me.
And she said how I was, I was

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vacuuming and I had a thought
about something you should

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explore.
Do you want to hear my idea?

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And so we jumped on a call and
we talked about it.

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And she said, John, all along
the way I saw you talking about

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these improvements that you were
making in yourself, but for the

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benefit of your kids, like you
wanted to be the best father

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that you could be.
And she's like, I think you

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should do that for other people.
I think you'd be great at it.

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And I think there's a real need
for that.

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And so we kind of put a
framework together for that.

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And I, you know, that was going
to go on the back burner.

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You know, it was going to be a
group coaching program for men.

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But at the time, I was focused
on doing this one-on-one work as

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a success coach.
And it was maybe 2 weeks after

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that I was doing some work on my
computer and I don't know what

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brought it on, but I just had
this moment of absolute clarity.

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It hit me like a lightning bolt
and I just, I knew that, you

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know, the engaged father
project, helping helping fathers

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get really clear on on the type
of dad that they want to be for

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their kids.
Why they still have the

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opportunity to do that with
their kids before they grow up

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and leave the house.
Like I could just, I could feel

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like the value there.
And I wanted and I wanted to be

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AI want to be a part of that,
right?

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Like, you know, there are so
many sort of stereotypical

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things that come along with
being a father and some are good

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and and some I don't think
you're very healthy.

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And I want to be AI want to be a
part of working with people to

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figure out, you know, what is
that ideal version of a dad look

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like?
And like, let's get you there.

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Let's start putting processes
and get you taking steps to to

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fulfill that role so you don't
end up on your deathbed carrying

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the weight of regret.
Just realizing when it's too

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late.
Like maybe I was too focused on

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work or maybe my job had me
traveling too much.

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You know that that regret is
heavy.

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I've talked to plenty of older
fathers that live that

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experience and it's hard.
It's hard for them to carry that

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with them and and I would love
to help dads not feel that way.

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So how do you describe a life
coach today?

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Well, that's a good question,
and I think it can take

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different forms.
My, my version of a life coach,

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they help you see what you
wouldn't see otherwise.

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There's something pretty magical
that happens when you're talking

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to another person that's not
going to judge you.

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This the type of coaching that I
do, you know, I don't, I don't

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give advice, you know, I don't,
I don't tell people the type of

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dad that they should be really
safe space where dads can, you

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know, take their masks off or
put their put their armor down,

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right?
We go through life being guarded

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a lot of the times and, you
know, we're on the lookout for

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threats and conflict.
And just to be in a space where

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you can sort of take that off
and all of a sudden, like you

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feel a little bit lighter and to
have somebody just ask curious

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questions.
You know, I'm not trying to lead

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anybody to anything specific.
Just asking questions and

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letting people have a space
where they can answer in a way

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that quite honestly, most people
haven't ever had that type of

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space before, right?
To be in a, in a spot where you

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can answer with, without the
fear of judgement.

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It allows people to access a
different part of their brain

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and they start to discover
things that are, that have

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really been there all along, but
they just couldn't quite get to

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them.
And it's, it's, it's a, it's a

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pretty fantastic process just
just to be a part of, honestly.

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We mentioned many stereotypes of
fatherhood.

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What are some of the most
damaging stereotypes that that

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you come across?
Not showing weakness.

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That's, that's one that I'm, I'm
thinking about so often these

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days is about what does it mean
to be vulnerable?

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And you know, why, why our
fathers kind of, you know,

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encouraged to not be vulnerable
a lot of the time.

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And, you know, my own theory is
that it has a lot to do with,

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you know, being raised as a boy.
And, you know, boys aren't

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supposed to be weak.
Boy, the thing boys don't cry,

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right?
That exists for a a reason.

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And maybe it's served a purpose
at some point in time where you

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had to present this this vision
of strength, because if you

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didn't, somebody was going to
come along and club you in the

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head and take your food or your
valuables or whatever.

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And so that that image of
strength was essential for

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preservation.
But, you know, times change.

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And that's, that's not the world
that we live in right now.

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And so I think helping fathers
understand not only that it's OK

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to be vulnerable, but that
there's this pretty incredible

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power that comes along with
being vulnerable and just being

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able to raise your hand and say,
like, I don't have all the

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answers.
And not only is that OK, but

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it's an incredible first step to
like real meaningful growth.

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And you mentioned helping people
discover their idealized version

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of a dad.
Is that version different for

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each person or is there an ideal
that fits everybody?

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No, it's totally unique and you
know, the work that I do, it

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supports that.
Again, like I don't, it's not

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like I've figured out how to be
a great dad.

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And if you just follow my three
steps, you'll be a great dad

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too.
It is it is completely unique to

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each father.
And, you know, one of the one of

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the ways that, you know, I help
dads kind of realize like, you

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know, what kind of dad do you
want to be is just imagine that

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your kid is, you know, they're
18 and they're leaving the house

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and maybe they're going to go to
college.

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Let's just say they're moving
out.

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And when they move out, they're
going to have a roommate.

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How would you hope that your kid
would describe you as a father

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to their roommate?
You know, what do you want them

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to say about you when you're not
around?

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And whatever those answers are
like kind of working backwards

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to see like is what you're doing
today not, not your intentions,

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not the reasons why you're doing
these things?

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Like are your daily actions
supporting that ideal outcome

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that you have?
And a lot of times, if we're

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honest with ourself, our daily
actions don't really align.

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We've mentioned the power and
importance of being vulnerable.

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What other emotions do you see
fathers commonly feeling but

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rarely admitting?
That we don't have all the

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answers, That there's times when
we just don't know what to do,

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That we're scared.
You know, like fathers are

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supposed to be strong.
We want to be that, that rock of

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support, you know, for our kids.
And we want them to feel comfort

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in knowing that we are strong
and that we're always there for

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them.
And that's OK.

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00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:09,000
But sometimes that desire to
always be strong makes it so we

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can't raise our hand and say I'm
scared.

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And being scared is a human
emotion.

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And when we just like suppress
that or just act like it's not

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there, we're unwilling to show
it for other people.

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I think that's got long term
consequences both within the

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family and then, you know, for
the for the father himself,

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right?
Like having challenging emotions

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that you're experiencing but not
having any outlet, forum or a

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way to work through those.
That leads to a heavy life in my

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opinion.
And I, I imagine that's the sort

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of thing that keeps someone in
that reactive mode where I'm

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just storing all my emotions and
because in my experience, every

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00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,560
emotion is going to be felt and
expressed.

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And if I don't do it
consciously, it comes out

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sideways and distorted ways and
in non productive ways.

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Yeah, it the emotions.
We'll find a way out.

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And, you know, when I turn the
clock back and I think about

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when I was, you know, working
in, you know, in my corporate

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00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:16,080
career, yeah, I, I said that my
frustrations were right under

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the surface.
So, you know, a kid would do

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something small that would upset
me.

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You know, and maybe the kid did
something that just truly wasn't

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unkind.
And it needed to be sort of like

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a coaching moment or a teaching
moment.

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But maybe they just did
something that was completely

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age appropriate and my my
reaction wouldn't be right sized

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for what they did.
It would be oversized because

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like you said, you know, when
we're carrying all of that stuff

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under the surface and it doesn't
have an outlet, you know, it's

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like a volcano.
It's it's going to find a way

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out.
And in those moments are they're

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ugly, they're painful.
I, I, I still have some where I

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00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,120
still carry the regret of some
of my reactions.

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I'm thankful that it didn't ever
escalate to something that was

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too severe or anything physical
like that.

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00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,520
But I have some moments that I'm
not proud of, for sure.

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You help men recognize when
they're parenting from some old

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conditioning versus their their
conscious choice.

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00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,000
Yeah, there's like a little
exercise that we do called, you

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00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,960
know, what's in your parenting
backpack.

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00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:29,320
And it's just kind of pressing
pause to take a look at like

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what are what are all the the
tools that you have, the beliefs

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00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,200
that you have, the things that
you saw, you know, from your

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father or from your parents or
from other parents.

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00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,760
Like all these things that you
just kind of collect over time,

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00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,000
stopping to like actually take a
look and explore those things.

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And some of those things might
really be working well for you.

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00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,640
It's like, OK, cool.
Like let's lean into those like

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00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,400
identifying what is working well
and let's multiply how

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00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,160
frequently we're using those
things.

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00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,640
And then maybe take a look at
some of the things that like,

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you know what, I've always
believed that that is true, or I

355
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,280
was told that that's the way
things are supposed to be done.

356
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,360
But if I stop and really examine
like the results of that, I

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00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:20,520
don't, I don't like the way that
that feels or I don't like the

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00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,520
way that my kids feel when that
happens.

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And so I'm not going to do that
anymore.

360
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,880
And so there's things that we're
going to like pull out of the

361
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,920
backpack.
And then there's other things

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where like maybe we can just
transform what it is.

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00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:36,720
And there's one, when I was
going through my coaching

364
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,640
certification process, we went
through this exercise where you

365
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,800
write down all of your beliefs
and you can start to uncover

366
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,280
your beliefs just by filling in
the blank.

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Like I believe that fill it in
and you go through an exercise

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00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,680
and it's just sort of a mind, a
mind dump, a mental dump of

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whatever that blank is.
You just kind of keep writing

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00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,560
that out.
And the first one that came to

371
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,400
mind for me when I did that and
I hadn't thought about it in

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years, was something that I was
told when I was young and it was

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coming from my dad.
And it said, if you're going to

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do something, do it right.
And it, you know, in the moment,

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I was like, whoa, like I haven't
thought about that in so long.

376
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,360
And I kind of, I stopped and I
was thinking about it.

377
00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:28,960
And, you know, I don't fault my
dad for saying that.

378
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I believe that he said that with
nothing but good intentions

379
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,800
about putting a good foot
forward, you know, putting good

380
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,840
work out there, it'll help you
advance and get good things

381
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,240
again, said with love and good
intentions.

382
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:47,000
But I can tell you, like for me,
I've been like a perfectionist

383
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,240
all my life and it's something
that I'm working on.

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00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,680
And I was afraid to do something
unless, unless I thought I would

385
00:23:54,680 --> 00:24:00,520
do it well or do it perfectly.
And so a lot of times I would

386
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:06,160
just sort of stay small and I
would talk myself out of doing

387
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,640
things because, you know, if I
couldn't do it at a really high

388
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:15,040
level means I shouldn't do it.
Well, failure is not only is

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00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,840
failure OK, it's, it's really
healthy.

390
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:23,080
And now I believe that if, if
you're not failing, it means

391
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,520
that you're not close enough to
the edge to be trying new

392
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,760
things.
And I'm, and I'm really working

393
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,520
on kind of taking that to the
other extreme where instead of

394
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:36,800
avoiding, avoiding failure at
all costs, it's now like a goal

395
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,560
of mine.
It's a, it's a bit of a, an

396
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,840
expectation that I'm putting on
myself to make sure that I'm

397
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,320
trying enough new things and I'm
letting go of this like, well,

398
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,960
what if it doesn't go well?
And all the fears that come

399
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,280
along with that, just kind of
letting that go and it, it has

400
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,480
led to some, some really cool
moments of growth for myself.

401
00:24:55,480 --> 00:25:00,720
So I think, you know, to answer
your question, just some honest

402
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:07,320
introspection looking at what it
is that we're doing on a regular

403
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,960
basis and just being honest with
ourself on whether or not we we

404
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,560
actually like that behavior,
whether we're OK with that

405
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,560
outcome with our family or not.
Yeah, I have very similar

406
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,360
experiences to what what you've
shared.

407
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:23,960
And like, school came really
easy to me, which taught me

408
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,320
that, oh, I should only do
things that are really easy for

409
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,920
me.
And the risk of failure was, was

410
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,240
terrifying.
And I'm, I'm not sure where the

411
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,760
saying came from, but, you know,
you can be right or you can be

412
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,440
happy.
And when I decided I'd rather be

413
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,840
happy than being insisting on
being right and correct and

414
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,520
getting everything excellent,
that that was the big

415
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:48,160
transformation for me.
How does being present actually

416
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:52,040
look in real life versus just
being, you know, the perfect dad

417
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:58,440
on Instagram?
Well, you know, being present or

418
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,360
just being aware.
I, I don't know if somebody

419
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,280
would say that there's a
difference between the two.

420
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,560
They feel like they're either
the same thing or certainly like

421
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,160
they butt right up against each
other.

422
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:19,080
But being, being present, being
in that moment, it allows, I'll

423
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,680
just speak for myself when I'm
present and I'm aware.

424
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,960
Maybe there's just a moment
where, you know, the kids might

425
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:32,200
be on the couch and they're
watching TV and I'm not doing

426
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,600
anything.
Maybe I'm like in between tasks

427
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:40,280
and I'll just ask myself, like,
what would make the kids feel

428
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,360
loved right now?
What could I do?

429
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:48,720
And I'll just, it doesn't have
to be anything big and I'll just

430
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,440
walk up behind him.
I don't need to like interrupt

431
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,320
him.
Sometimes I do, sometimes I say,

432
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,680
you know, pause the screens and
I'll, and I'll get on their eye

433
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,560
level and like, I'll have like a
quick little conversation with

434
00:26:58,560 --> 00:26:59,960
him.
But sometimes it's just walking

435
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:04,120
over to him and giving him a
kiss on top of their head and

436
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,200
rubbing their shoulder and
saying, I, I love you.

437
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,760
And that's it.
And, you know, it's not hard to

438
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,760
see the value of those moments
as they, you know, stack over

439
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,160
time.
But for me, I have to be present

440
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,760
to be in a space where I can ask
myself, like, there's this,

441
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:29,800
there's this gap in between
tasks or there's just this

442
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,400
moment of time, what would I
like to fill it with?

443
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:38,400
And, you know, in those moments,
I've, I've done this work on

444
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,080
myself and I know how I want my
kids to feel about me.

445
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,200
You know, when they grow up and
move out, I want them to to

446
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:50,600
describe me as a dad that made
them feel safe and they felt

447
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,880
seen and they felt like an
important member of the

448
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,560
household and they felt
unconditionally supported by me

449
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,840
in whatever they did.
And so I can sort of, you know,

450
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,800
go, I can visit those answers in
my head and just say, like, OK,

451
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:11,400
what can I do right now that
aligns with that ideal outcome?

452
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,280
And sometimes it's just a quick
kiss on the head, or other times

453
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,760
maybe it's a little bit more
formal or I was like, hey, guys,

454
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,600
just like, come here.
Like follow me here.

455
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,480
Like just sit down for a second
and I want to tell you

456
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,240
something.
And just having a heartfelt

457
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,600
conversation with them.
That's the importance of being

458
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,560
present for me.
So I have met men in their 80s

459
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:41,760
still dealing with the pain and
suffering of their dad, never

460
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:43,400
having told them that they love
them.

461
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,000
It when you were growing up, was
your dad able to tell you that

462
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,600
he loved you?
Yeah, Yep, we said it.

463
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,640
We said it often and it's
something that, you know, I've

464
00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:00,200
carried forward.
But I think expressing it is, is

465
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,600
obviously there's a ton of value
in doing that, but I also think

466
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,120
that there's a difference,
right?

467
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:10,720
Like saying the words in passing
it, it can, you know, just kind

468
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,280
of get habitual, like I'll say
the words and, and not that it's

469
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:21,520
damaging, but I think there are
there are levels of sincerity

470
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,120
that can come along with saying
those words.

471
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,800
And you know, I think like, you
know, making like eye contact,

472
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,240
like getting on their level, if
you've got younger kids, like

473
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,640
literally getting down to their
level and just looking them in

474
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,960
the eye for a moment and just
saying, like, I love you, you

475
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:51,480
mean, makes me emotional to
acting it out.

476
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,600
And I think that's, that's an
example of the of the power that

477
00:29:56,600 --> 00:30:00,360
can come from from doing that.
Just letting your kids know,

478
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,640
like, you mean so much to me.
And I am I am.

479
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,680
So I'm so thankful for you.
My, my daughter.

480
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,800
She's in middle school.
And today it was her first day

481
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,000
back after holiday break, and
she forgot her cheerleading bag.

482
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,840
And she was getting on the bus
and she said, oh, can you run my

483
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,400
cheerleading bag up to school
for me?

484
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,880
And I said, yeah, of course.
And I'm in the parking lot and

485
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,520
I'm about ready to walk into the
office and take her bag in.

486
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,200
And I was like, you know what,
what, what can I do?

487
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:36,120
I have an opportunity here to do
something cool so she feels

488
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,000
loved and appreciated.
And I was looking to the car and

489
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,240
I found a napkin and a pen and I
just I wrote her a quick note

490
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,200
and I said, I am, I'm so
grateful for you.

491
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,000
I am.
I feel so lucky that you're my

492
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,280
daughter.
Love always dad.

493
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,840
It was simple.
And I folded the napkin up and I

494
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:56,880
and I tucked it into the laces
in her shoes.

495
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,840
And she'll see that after school
when she's getting ready for

496
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:05,520
cheer practice.
So just I don't know, I'm Andy.

497
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,240
I'm kind of, I'm going off on a
tangent here.

498
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,280
I think your original question
had something to do with the the

499
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,640
power of saying I love you or if
I experienced that growing up.

500
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,040
But hopefully that that answers
your question.

501
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,600
Yeah, you displayed it and and I
think eye contact is is a key

502
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,720
part in having gratitude for
your children, for your life is

503
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,200
a key part as well.
I don't believe in your house,

504
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,000
it's ever going to be like, hey,
how you doing?

505
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:31,880
I love you.
It's not going to become that

506
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:33,800
casual.
And that's me.

507
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,800
And I like yeah, it's only and
and and making it so casual

508
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:39,880
reminds me of the man hug.
Just like, hey, what's up?

509
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:41,320
You know, you know, you barely
touch.

510
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:42,880
You don't want cooties when you
hug someone.

511
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:47,560
You know, hugs meant to be long
lasting and saying I love you

512
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,720
meant yeah, at eye level,
maintaining eye contact.

513
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,440
And then that power of it is
always there.

514
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,960
It's always felt.
So it's a great constant

515
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,520
reminder of of the power of
love.

516
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,920
Yeah, it's funny.
I literally yesterday I was with

517
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,200
my kids driving home from a
family gathering and I forget

518
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,760
how the conversation came up,
but I started talking about how

519
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,360
I'm choosing to say I love you
more to more people, right?

520
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:15,680
It doesn't just have to be
family.

521
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,800
Like I'm saying it to friends
and like there's different ways

522
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,560
of expressing it.
You know, it's not like I'm

523
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,400
staring them in the eye and I'm
saying like, I love you, but

524
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,280
it's like I'm saying like, hey,
man, like I love you.

525
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,200
Like, or just, or maybe it's at
the end of a text, like love

526
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,680
you, brother.
And you know, my kids are on

527
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,880
board with that.
So like even just having that

528
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,200
conversation, like I feel good
about that as a dad, just

529
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,360
letting them know like it's,
it's OK to express that you

530
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,080
don't have to feel awkward about
it.

531
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,640
And I love that they're a part
of that conversation.

532
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,800
And I and you brought up hugging
as well.

533
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,120
I started hugging people
differently probably within the

534
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:59,960
past, I don't know, year or so
to where it's like, yeah, I've

535
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:02,080
even hugged strangers.
I met people for the first time.

536
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,840
I man, if I think back to old
me, which is like what my kids

537
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,920
will say, like there's old dad
and and then there's me now, old

538
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:12,640
me.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't hug a

539
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,960
stranger.
I would be too worried about

540
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,000
making them feel uncomfortable
or worried about what they might

541
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:23,440
say, you know, after we part
ways and I'm I'm letting those

542
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,080
fears go.
And yeah, I hugged a stranger

543
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,080
not too long ago, was introduced
to them.

544
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,880
I said, you know what, I'm a
hugger, how about a hug?

545
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,400
And it kind of took her off,
like, caught her off guard for a

546
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,120
second.
She's like, yeah, fine.

547
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,440
Like, OK, great.
You can teach an old dog new

548
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,760
tricks for sure.
Yeah, and there is there.

549
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,720
So anytime I'm in front of
group, I teach what I call the

550
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,600
optimal hug.
The optimal hug is left ear to

551
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,600
left ear and that aligns your
hearts.

552
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,720
And if you pay attention, most
society, most people go right

553
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,640
ear to right ear to hug but not
feel that connection.

554
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,120
So if you really want to hug the
people that are closest to you

555
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,160
and mean something to you, go
left ear to left ear, hold it

556
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,280
for a good like like just three
seconds.

557
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,560
Not not saying 3 minutes, but
three seconds as opposed to just

558
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,080
touching goodbye and break it
up.

559
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:10,719
But the relationship
transforming.

560
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,400
I love that.
And yeah, I'm a hugger too.

561
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,000
And yeah, I don't.
I usually ask for permission

562
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:16,120
after the fact.
Oh, is this OK?

563
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:24,840
So is there a daily practice or
ritual that you recommend as a

564
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,760
first step for a dad to change
his relationship with himself as

565
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:37,800
a dad?
Well, I would say I again, I

566
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,120
hesitate to give advice to
people, so I guess I'll just

567
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,360
share what works for me.
And if somebody wants to say

568
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,320
like, hey, maybe I'll give that
a try, they can.

569
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,880
Writing an intention for the day
has, has been such a powerful

570
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,800
little exercise for me.
I journal quickly at the at the

571
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,280
end of the day.
I encourage my kids to do this

572
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,320
as well.
We do sleepovers in our house

573
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,360
all the time, you know, where
we've got two kids and like, you

574
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,800
know, my wife might go sleep in
my son's room and my daughter

575
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,720
might sleep in my room.
And it happened last night.

576
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,520
We were going to bed and I said,
let's, let's do our little

577
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,240
evening journal thing.
And she's, she loved it.

578
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:21,320
She even thanked me for it after
the fact.

579
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,600
She said thanks for making me
journal.

580
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,400
I was like, well, if I made you,
I, I asked you if you wanted to

581
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:30,080
and you happily accepted.
But writing down three things,

582
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,840
three wins from the day.
What were three great things

583
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,840
that you're happy for, grateful
for?

584
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:39,200
And then also writing down three
wins for tomorrow.

585
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,840
Like what are three things that
are like within your your

586
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,520
control or you're able to
influence like that would be

587
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,320
really great if those things
happened.

588
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,280
And then in the morning, writing
down your intention for the day

589
00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:58,120
it you can Google like what it
does, you know, psychologically

590
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,040
when you articulate those
thoughts into words.

591
00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:06,640
I don't know, I'm no
neuroscientist on on why it

592
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,600
works.
I can just only say that it

593
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:12,720
works for me, but I think
starting your day off with

594
00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:16,200
something like that, with an
intention of how you want to

595
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,760
show up for your kids and maybe
that is, you know, something

596
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,400
proactive.
I want to say I love you more or

597
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,840
I want to make more eye contact
or I want to, I want to listen

598
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:32,400
deeper, right?
You like phones like they're,

599
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,920
they're such a such an easy
distraction for us.

600
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:38,440
And you know, maybe I just want
to leave my phone in the other

601
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,160
room.
It could be those things or it

602
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,120
could be like, I want to, I want
to do less of this.

603
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,080
Like maybe they already realized
there's some things that they're

604
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,760
doing that they can feel that
are getting in the way.

605
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,560
And it's like I want to take a
breath.

606
00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:57,800
If I feel like stressed out or I
feel like there's conflict in

607
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,640
the house, I just want to like
take a breath before I do

608
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,760
anything, before I react.
Then like that's something

609
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,640
that's incredibly powerful
because when we create a little

610
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,080
bit of space and we're not just
reacting, if we can actually

611
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:17,040
just take a moment to pause and
actually think about how we want

612
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,360
to handle that situation.
Now we're now we're responding

613
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,400
intentionally instead of just
reacting.

614
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,280
And in those two things are, you
know, miles apart.

615
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,280
So if somebody's looking for a
daily exercise to try, start

616
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,680
there.
And and John, where can people

617
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,120
learn more about you and the
Engaged Father Project?

618
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,320
I have website, you can go to
the engaged father project.com.

619
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,720
You can find me on Instagram,
YouTube and TikTok as well.

620
00:37:46,720 --> 00:37:50,240
But I had a post on Instagram
that blew up about a month ago.

621
00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:55,120
And that's been, it's been a
really fun ride to kind of watch

622
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,720
that growth into, to read the
comments from people and to kind

623
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:02,360
of see like how it resonated
with them.

624
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,280
And, and there's a lot of, you
know, not just fathers, also

625
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,960
mothers that are in their, you
know, 50s and 60s and 70s

626
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:15,200
talking about the weight of
regret, largely in part with

627
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,560
being absent as a result of
trying to be a provider.

628
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,880
So I would say, find me on
Instagram at the engaged father

629
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,720
project and shoot me a message
there and, and we'll have a

630
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:28,920
conversation and, you know,
maybe I'm the right person for

631
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,240
you and we can do this work
together and you can literally

632
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,280
change the way that you're
showing up as a father.

633
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,000
And I've, I've been fortunate
enough to work with some people

634
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,760
that have made some incredible
transformations.

635
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,400
And I still stay in close
contact with them today and they

636
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:50,560
continue to talk about what a
change it's made for them and

637
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,600
their kids.
And just, you know, being a part

638
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,640
of this work, it's my purpose.
I feel like it's my life, my

639
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:01,680
life's calling.
So if these words are fine in

640
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,720
your ears and you feel like
maybe it's the right time to do

641
00:39:04,720 --> 00:39:07,920
some of this work, jump on
Instagram, send me a message and

642
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,360
and we'll talk.
John, what's one thing that you

643
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:18,600
wish more men knew?
I love that question, that it's

644
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,880
that it's OK to not have it all
figured out.

645
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:28,760
It really is OK.
And when we can be at peace with

646
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:36,440
that as a father, it allows for
some pretty other incredible

647
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:41,000
things to happen.
It allows us to get better at

648
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,440
asking for help.
It allows us to see help in

649
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,640
support in places where maybe we
wouldn't notice it otherwise.

650
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,320
And look, man, there's there's
no manual for how to be an

651
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,080
incredible dad.
And we're figuring it out on the

652
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,480
fly.
And it's, it's hard.

653
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,440
It's the most rewarding thing
that I can do in my life.

654
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,480
But it's hard at times, you
know, having having multiple

655
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,960
humans under one roof that are
all unique individuals and at

656
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,360
times want different things and
trying to have that feel like

657
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,760
cohesive and supportive.
It doesn't always, it doesn't

658
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,880
always work that way.
It's tough when.

659
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:27,080
What we're presented with on
Instagram a lot of the times

660
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:29,840
looks like we're supposed to
have it all figured out.

661
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,560
But it's OK if you don't, and
it's OK if it feels hard at

662
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,280
times.
You're not alone.

663
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,920
Then there is.
There's meaningful support out

664
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,480
there for you.
Thanks so much, John.

665
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,200
Thanks for doing your work.
Thanks for being of service to

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00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,200
fatherhood.
Thank being of service to

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00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,880
humanity.
And keep going and have a

668
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,160
fantastic 2026.
And please keep hugging

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00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,320
strangers.
I love it.

670
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,560
Thank you for the thank you for
the time, Andy I I appreciate it

671
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,680
means so much and you've been
incredible.

672
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,680
So thanks.
If this conversation hit home

673
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,600
for you, you're not alone and
you're not broken.

674
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,480
What John shared today is proof
that fatherhood is not about

675
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,760
perfection, it is about
presence.

676
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,920
If you want to learn more about
John's work in the Engaged

677
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,160
Father Project, you'll find all
the links in the show notes.

678
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,000
And if you're a man who wants a
space to talk honestly about

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00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,080
life, relationships, emotions,
and showing up better not just

680
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:26,320
as a father, but as a human,
you're invited to join my men's

681
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:27,840
community.
Authentic AF.

682
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,040
Visit realmenfeel.org/group.
Because when we are willing to

683
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,200
feel, we show up better for
everyone who depends on us.

684
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:37,800
Until next time, be good to
yourself.