Redefining Success: The Hollow Man Syndrome

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What we then discover is that
the root system was decaying all

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along, was super shallow, and
the inside of the tree is

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hollow.
And I think that's a great

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metaphor for the way that a lot
of men are operating.

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They assume the roles that
they're assigned.

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They take on additional roles of
strength and productivity and

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being providers and all the rest
of it.

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But they have very weak roots,
shallow engagement and

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relationships.
I don't really feel it.

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Unfulfilled and empty inside.
Hello and welcome to Real Men

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Feel.
I'm your host, Andy Grant.

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Today we're diving into
something that a lot of men

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experience but rarely talk
about, the feeling of looking

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successful on the outside but
feeling empty on the inside.

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Our guest today is Kenyatta
Meadows, a Senior Vice President

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at Bank of America and Master
Certified Executive Coach who

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worked with high achieving men
struggling with what he calls

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the Hollow Man Syndrome.
Kenyatta spent years mastering

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the traditional masculine
playbook out, working everyone

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out, performing expectations and
climbing the corporate ladder

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until he realized the cost of
that success was his own

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well-being.
Today, we're going to explore

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why success can leave men
feeling empty, why the perfect

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work life balance is a myth, and
how men can reconnect with the

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parts of themselves that they
were taught to suppress.

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Nope.
We had technical challenges

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about halfway through this
episode.

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So if you notice a sudden outfit
change, don't be alarmed.

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All right, let's do it.
Hello Kenyatta and welcome to

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REAL MEN Feel.
Thank.

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You you talk about something
called the hollow man syndrome.

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Could you expand on what that
means in in kind of day-to-day

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life?
Yeah.

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So it's really a metaphor for
something that we've seen

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probably plenty of times and the
NR experience, and that's we

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pass by a tree, let's say,
constantly, and it's sturdy and

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it's big and it's strong.
And then after a little bit of

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weather, maybe rain or a little
bit of wind, one evening, we,

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we, we wake up to the tree lying
flat on its side.

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And what we then discover is
that the root system was

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decaying all along, was super
shallow, and the inside of the

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tree is hollow.
And I think that's a great

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metaphor for the way that a lot
of men are operating.

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They assume the roles that
they're assigned.

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They take on additional roles of
strength and productivity and

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being providers and all the rest
of it.

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But they have very weak roots,
shallow engagement and

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relationships.
I don't really feel it

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unfulfilled and empty inside.
And so this is where the hollow

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man metaphor comes from.
And I think how how it

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manifests, you know, I've kind
of touched on that a little bit.

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You're going to see
relationships that are just not

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thriving, that are not growing.
They may not be really growing

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in any clear way and and they're
generally going to be feeling

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that emptiness, but it's not
just a condition that's sort of

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static, right?
When you feel empty, you feel

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frustrated.
That could mean that you're

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medic self medicating or you're
overindulging.

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It could mean that you're, you
know, your temper is even

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shorter than they may already
have been.

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And there can be, I think in a
lot of ways what we see is sort

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of midlife crisis and a lot of
men and the way that they may be

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acting out may be a sense of
trying to fill that void.

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So it doesn't necessarily have
to be entirely destructive, but

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it may also just demonstrate
some kind of abnormal behavior.

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So I'd like to think a lot of
men listening.

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I have kind of checked all the
boxes that should have life,

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decide that they are successful,
but that hollow man can have all

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the trappings, the
manifestations, but is just

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feeling empty and lacking and
frustrated inside.

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Absolutely.
I mean, it's going to be very

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unique, right?
Just depending on, I mean, if

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you think about a tree, if you
think about 10 trees in that

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scenario, you're going to have
various degrees of shallowness.

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You can have various degrees of
being hollow.

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And they're not all lying on, on
their side, right.

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They are firmly planted, and
they may never fall in any kind

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of critical way that draws
significant attention, but that

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doesn't make them any less
hollow or any any less in need.

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Were you a hollow man?
Is that how you discovered this

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or something else?
Yeah, I would say there's

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certainly elements of being
hollow or seeking and needing

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some kind of fulfillment.
But like I just mentioned, there

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was no particular crisis, right?
There was nothing that blew me

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over or or that was a critical
turning point necessarily.

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But I think, yeah, by being
intentional and being reflective

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and thinking about how I wanted
to live my life, how I wanted to

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contribute, how I wanted to plan
on what I wanted my life to look

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like as a father, what I wanted
my child's life to look like.

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Those are some of the things
that were, I guess if you have

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to call them turning points.
There were turning points, but

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they were more intentional, I
would say, than necessarily

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circumstantial.
So more decision points, choice

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points for you as opposed to
kind of just going with the flow

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that might lead you to lack of
fulfillment.

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Yeah, that's right, reflection,
but I think that's really,

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really important.
I think that's something that

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certainly not just men, but you
know, we all should should do,

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you know, are we still on track?
Are we still on course?

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What is that course is do we
have a new and insight, right.

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Maybe at one point we thought
here's what here's the

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destination that we want to want
to go to.

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Is that still where we want to
go?

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Is this still the way we want to
get there?

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Was there something in your
experience that had you kind of

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transition from, I want to
create my own intentional life

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to I want to help other men do
that?

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Yeah.
You know, I don't know that

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there was any, any major pivot
because I've always been someone

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who's been interested in
mentorship and I've been active

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in mentorship.
I've been active, you know, in

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board service, looking to get
back into board service.

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But I, I signed the board of an
organ procurement and

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transplantation organization for
almost 10 years.

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So I've always been engaged in
some kind of of giving.

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It hasn't necessarily been, you
know, flashy or, or major in

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some, some, some obvious way,
But particularly around COVID,

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listening to, you know, what a
lot of men were talking about,

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what a lot of my friends were
talking about what I was

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feeling.
I thought after having done some

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reflection and some, you know,
that thought process, that

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intentionality, that it would be
pretty selfish of me actually to

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sit on that and not at least put
it out there and allow other

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people to kind of dip into that,
well, whenever or however they

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they chose to.
So that's also why, you know, I

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captured a lot of what we're
talking about here today and you

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know, in this book, the new
alpha.

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And I'm pretty proud of some of
the, you know, the feedback and

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the results already the people
have kind of shared in the way

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that it's helped them, women as
well, by the way, to help them

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to appreciate, you know, what
some men are going through, why

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they behave the way they behave
and why maybe they're not so

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articulate about their emotions.
They don't have that emotional

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literacy to express themselves
usefully.

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So I I found it very helpful to
share with other men.

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So you mentioned finding value
in being of service, being a

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mentor as a young man, as a
child, did you have mentors?

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I did for sure.
I mean, my father was very, very

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active all throughout my life,
actually all the way through

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last summer when he passed away.
I had other men in, in the

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neighborhood, in our family
systems, you know, in the

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church, in my school, parents of
my friends.

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And those are people who just
engage with me directly, right?

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Of course, there were others
that we see regularly or read

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about who are also our mentors,
even if we don't have a direct

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relationship with them.
So I had really good overall.

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I had good mentors, but I would
say that some of that mentorship

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is not 100% positive because I
also was able to observe.

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Even if I couldn't really
understand at the time, I can

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understand how some of them were
going through their challenges

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and probably not addressing them
as well as they could.

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So your book is called The New
Alpha.

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I think most men, fortunately or
unfortunately, are familiar with

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the traditional alpha mentality,
which is kind of that dominance

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and achievement are the real
definitions of strength.

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What's the cost of living that
way long term?

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Well, there are many costs I and
we all actually know them, but

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to articulate them, we have
health crisis, we have heart

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disease specifically, we have
hypertension.

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Like I said before, you know, a
lot of these this, this desire

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to either fulfill or to numb
ourselves, to distract ourselves

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could range from overeating to
overdrinking to, you know,

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engaging in in other illicit
activities and behaviors.

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It could be thrill seeking even,
right?

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I mean, why does somebody seek
thrills?

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They're they're certainly
looking for some kind of

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stimulation, some kind of
fulfillment, right?

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And I'm not saying the thrill
seeking is a bad thing

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necessarily, but clearly if
you're doing 150 on a highway

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with other people and families,
that's not the same thing as you

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jumping out of a plane, right?
Bless you, do your thing.

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But there's a lot that actually
can be destructive in that way.

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So I think it can manifest in a
lot of different ways and

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depending on the person's
personality as well.

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You may have people who are just
very, very quiet and kind of

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keep everything inside.
You may have some people who are

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a combination.
You have some people who are

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very vocal and they, you know,
push all their problems and

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their troubles and worries on
others.

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So it could really manifest in a
lot of different ways.

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And you talk about emotional
integrity as as really a new

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strength to ferment, to focus
on.

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So what does emotional integrity
mean to you?

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So really I spent time talking
about vulnerability and most

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people, most men, certainly at
various points in time, we're

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taught to hide our
vulnerabilities, to hide the

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deficiencies.
And yes, we shouldn't be walking

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around necessarily with a list
of all of our deficiencies and

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advertising in, in, you know,
when we, when we're introduced

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to others or introducing
ourselves, you know, obviously

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I'm not proposing that we do
things that, that don't make any

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social sense.
But certainly in forums like

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this, communities like this,
that you, that you're driving

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and, and that, that I'm driving,
it's good to come together and,

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and say, Hey, look, here's
something I'm struggling with.

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What what's your take?
What do you think would be

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helpful or come and ask for
something if you already have a

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specific ask?
So I think from a vulnerability

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perspective, this is where we
can actually build community and

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then build strength and build
ourselves up probably way faster

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and in a couple of ways specific
to the vulnerability.

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But also by virtue of building
stronger relationships and then

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building the relationship
muscle, right, building our

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ability to ask for help,
building our ability to connect

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with people.
Then it will permeate other

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vulnerabilities, other topics,
other deficiencies, and then

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won't stay that way for long.
So I think that's really

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critical.
And then I, I referenced, I

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think emotional literacy and
emotional literacy is really

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around not just your ability or
your willingness to feel your

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emotions and to feel that
vulnerability or to acknowledge

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it, but then to think about how
do I describe it?

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How do I articulate it?
How do I tell even if it's not

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my wife, girlfriend, whatever,
my mother, but how do I tell my

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friends or these guys, maybe
they're not my friends really.

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I've keep my worlds entirely
separate.

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And here's a community that I
can come to and be that

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vulnerable self until I could
build myself up.

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Well, emotional literacy is
going to be, how do I articulate

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my feelings?
How do I ask for help, right.

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And that's something that I
think a lot of people get very

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frustrated with, men and women
alike, when it comes down to

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saying what they need or
thinking it through and having

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to put it into words, they get
frustrated.

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So sometimes it's because they
can't do it.

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They don't have the words for
it.

227
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,240
And then there's also times when
they can't control their

228
00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:27,120
emotions or their feelings
around their feelings, right?

229
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,560
And so that's a very easy thing
to try to avoid.

230
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:33,040
And sometimes I don't even want
to think about, you know, the

231
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,360
ways that I need to do the work
right, or, or what the reason is

232
00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,320
for feeling a certain way.
I'm gonna say, OK, you know

233
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:40,360
what?
I'm just going to go for a walk.

234
00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,160
I'm just going to take a nap or
I'm just going to go meet my

235
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,360
friends.
When really what it requires is

236
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,080
maybe sitting down with a piece
of paper and plotting out why it

237
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,440
is or how did I get to this
place or what is it that I'm

238
00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,800
really trying to achieve and who
is it who can help?

239
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,440
Or whatever the case is, or even
how can I reflect on who it is

240
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,320
that I can share with and help?
You know, that requires a lot of

241
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,360
intentionality.
It requires discipline and a lot

242
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,120
more effort than sometimes we're
willing to put in.

243
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,160
So it's really, again, another
learning.

244
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:12,920
Yeah.
Yeah, I've been talking about

245
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,800
the power of vulnerability for a
decade now, and I still meet so

246
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,120
many people that think a man
who's vulnerable is bawling in

247
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:23,640
response to anyone.
Somebody says, hey, how you

248
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,440
doing?
And like, no, that's not your,

249
00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:30,240
but your willingness and ability
to be vulnerable when it serves

250
00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:35,000
the purpose the the the stage,
the container you is not about

251
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,240
being so emotionally open and
wounded that you you lose all

252
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:40,880
control of yourself.
That's right.

253
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:42,480
Well, I mean a lot of
vulnerability.

254
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,120
And he can also just come even
in the form of Jest, right?

255
00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,600
I mean, you can make a self
deprecating kind of comment or

256
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,200
the way that people kind of
tease one another and tease

257
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,000
themselves and still be
communicating the need.

258
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,120
So it doesn't have to be all
soppy and you know that you're

259
00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,120
crying.
You can say, hey, you know what

260
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,080
I'm pretty good at at this, this
and this.

261
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,480
But what I'm not particularly
good at is creating a bridge

262
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:09,480
between this and this or, you
know, I'm not able to

263
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,680
effectively communicate with
other people.

264
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,280
Maybe my nonverbals are not so
great.

265
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,480
What what do you think about
that?

266
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:18,600
Right?
Like my face does this thing

267
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,840
when I get frustrated.
I'm not very good at being able

268
00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,400
to hide it.
OK, well, one, do I need to

269
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:23,520
hide?
Do you need to hide it?

270
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,720
And two, maybe here's some tips
that can help you to mitigate

271
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,880
that and hide it.
Or three, here's some tips that

272
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,800
help you to not be so frustrated
and annoyed by the thing that's

273
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,800
frustrating and annoying.
It's I mean, there's so many

274
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,920
ways to think about it, so many
ways to approach it.

275
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,720
And so you're 100% right.
And I know you've worked a lot

276
00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,200
in corporate world with lots of
executives.

277
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,040
From my experience with those
sort of people, it seems often

278
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:50,120
the highest performers can feel
the emptiest.

279
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,200
Well, yeah, I mean, there's no
question about it.

280
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,200
I mean, I was, I was one of
those people, right?

281
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,920
I was an executive on Wall
Street for the, you know, the

282
00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,800
last decade.
And yeah, I think not everybody

283
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,760
does.
But but a lot of what life

284
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,760
requires, that kind of a life
requires is in my book.

285
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,080
I talk about the three domains,
your relationships with people

286
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,120
at work, your relationships with
people at home, your

287
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:16,720
relationship with yourself.
And I think very often we don't

288
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,320
really focus on the relationship
with ourselves across the board,

289
00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,760
not just executives, but
certainly when you have to work,

290
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,440
you know, lots of hours or you
know, you're under incredible

291
00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,800
pressure and having to make
decisions and thinking about the

292
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,920
company's brand or whatever the
case is, you know, you have to

293
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,840
make some, some decisions and
some things maybe may, may come

294
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,200
into intention, right.
They may come into attention.

295
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:44,440
And so there may be a feeling of
emptiness in those other areas

296
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,280
because we're siphoning off
energy.

297
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,720
We're siphoning off time to help
to keep pumping up and propping

298
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,520
up, you know, our, our, our work
domains.

299
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,080
And that's not exclusive to
executives, but you definitely

300
00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,520
can see it, I think at scale
because they're working really

301
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:00,760
hard.
Lawyers are working hard.

302
00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,600
Doctors may be feeling that as
well.

303
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,160
And they have, you know, some of
the highest suicide rates and

304
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,560
some of the highest substance
abuse rates of anybody else, the

305
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,000
people who know the body, who
understand the body better than

306
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,120
anybody else on the planet,
pretty much, Right.

307
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,360
And so that alone, knowledge
alone isn't all that's going to

308
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,080
keep us, keep us safe.
It's not all that's going to

309
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,600
help us to feel fulfilled.
And so I think that's a big part

310
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,320
of why we're we're oftentimes
just not maintaining that

311
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,800
balance between those across
those domains.

312
00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,200
Yeah.
And another type of balance I've

313
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,400
I've seen you talk about is the
notion of perfecting your work

314
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,080
life balance.
And you talk about something

315
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,000
that I really like the idea of
called wobbling.

316
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:42,800
Well, So what?
What does that mean?

317
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,120
Yeah, so, so, you know, people
talk about perfecting work life

318
00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,240
balance and what work life
balances.

319
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:50,920
I can tell you what it isn't,
right?

320
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,440
So if you're thinking that
you're going to spend 8 hours

321
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,760
with your friends and family, 8
hours at work, 8 hours for

322
00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,840
yourself all the time, every
every day, every week, every

323
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,800
month, you're deluding yourself
and you've pretty much failed.

324
00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,640
You will find that you failed
before you even really start.

325
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,800
The example I use in the book is
of of sort of world class

326
00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,560
cyclists, right?
When you see those guys coming

327
00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,839
down for the Tour de France or
when you see them in the

328
00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:17,280
Olympics and they're they're
really sprinting.

329
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,960
What you see is the bike kind of
going almost crazy, almost like

330
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,960
a pendulum, right?
With each push and thrust to the

331
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,480
legs, the bike is really not
staying perfectly still.

332
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,440
A pendulum is swinging at any
point almost is it never

333
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,720
completely vertical, which we
might call balanced or or or

334
00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,520
static, right?
It's on average.

335
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,240
So for feeling well, well,
you're going to need to spend

336
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:48,680
some time focused on yourself,
focused on a family member who

337
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,080
may need some attention.
You may need to spend more time

338
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,920
with your kid at school or to
deal with some disciplinary

339
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:58,800
issue.
You may need to spend more time,

340
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,360
like we spoke about already,
actually with putting out a fire

341
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,360
at work or dealing with a
project or maybe the seasonality

342
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:07,360
with your work at various
periods.

343
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,080
It's going to be more busy.
You're going to have to

344
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,400
sacrifice more.
And that's that's fine.

345
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:17,320
But the key is on balance and in
reflection, how much time am I

346
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,320
sacrificing in one domain or how
much time am I giving in one

347
00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:23,560
domain?
And does that actually help me

348
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,960
to lead an integrated and
reasonably balanced life?

349
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,200
And so that's the idea behind,
behind Wobbling Well, that we're

350
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,000
going to be that pendulum
constantly swinging across those

351
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,400
3 domains.
But in the end, can we still

352
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,360
feel or can we still say that
we've done a good job of

353
00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:42,720
integrating?
So Kenyatta, you talk about the

354
00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,320
importance of re parenting your
inner child.

355
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,520
I imagine that's not work or
even a phrase that many men are

356
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:52,800
familiar with.
Could you expand on what that

357
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,120
work means?
Yeah.

358
00:18:54,120 --> 00:18:56,400
So basically it's just about
taking accountability and taking

359
00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,000
responsibility for who we are,
where we are in our lives,

360
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,120
right.
We have all been affected

361
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,920
positively and negatively by the
things that have happened

362
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,520
yesterday, last week, last year,
and certainly in our childhood

363
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,120
going back to to those formative
years.

364
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,600
But at some point, all the
things that we didn't get or the

365
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,520
things that were problematic for
us, unless we're going to live a

366
00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,600
life that is continually
structured and constrained and

367
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:27,320
scarred by those things, we're
going to have to do the job that

368
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,720
even the best intentioned, most
loving guardian parent, teacher,

369
00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:36,360
whomever didn't know, wasn't
able to do what they weren't

370
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,920
equipped for or the time
obviously being different didn't

371
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,840
require.
And so reparenting yourself is

372
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,560
really about thinking now as an
adult and maybe even a parent,

373
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,640
what is it that I need?
What are my vulnerable spots?

374
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,240
Where have I not been greater?
Where am I not good?

375
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,720
And actually taking some
accountability for, for making

376
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,560
those changes and, and, and
being intentional about it and

377
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,080
then building on it.
OK.

378
00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,480
So it's, it's some self
reflection, looking at your own

379
00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,080
personal history and being
honest with yourself.

380
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,120
I I feel like a lot of guys like
well, happened a long time ago.

381
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,680
You should be over it so that
it's that's that's not

382
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,240
reparenting your inner child.
No, not at all.

383
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,360
And actually that's a, you know,
it's an additional point that I

384
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,080
think is worth is it's worth
making that you just touched on

385
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,720
is really good, I think as
parents, if you're a good parent

386
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,400
there, it also requires some
patience, right?

387
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,040
It also requires grace and
forgiveness and an understanding

388
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,800
that mistakes will happen, that
people won't get things right

389
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,800
the first time, etcetera,
etcetera.

390
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,600
And I think having that same
kind of grace with ourselves is

391
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,840
useful as we repair it because
we're going to still fall into

392
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:42,840
patterns.
We're still going to make

393
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:44,880
mistakes, we're still going to
have shortcomings.

394
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:50,320
But as long as we continue to be
intentional and focused and even

395
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,320
ask for help, right, which is
something that we expect to our

396
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,440
children, our children and other
people to do.

397
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:58,080
If you don't know how to do
something, ask the question,

398
00:20:58,280 --> 00:20:59,920
Come and get me, I'll be happy
to help you.

399
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,680
So I think, you know, having
that kind of patience and grace

400
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,120
with ourselves is also really
important.

401
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,480
Cool.
And in the realm of actual

402
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,680
parenting, I I know that you
took some extended leave when

403
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,600
you first became a father.
Was that a difficult decision

404
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,000
or?
Yeah, it was actually, believe

405
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,480
it or not.
So I had four months paid, fully

406
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,480
paid.
And for most people, that would

407
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,320
seem like a, you know, a no
brainer.

408
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,080
But being in a, you know, a
competitive Wall Street

409
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,000
environment, you know, any
significant absence could mean

410
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,920
that, you know, a, a meaningful
project could come on board or

411
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,560
something that you're
responsible for within your

412
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,480
portfolio.
That stuff might change.

413
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,560
People may realize, hey, you
know what, we actually did find

414
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,240
a workaround.
And even though maybe it isn't

415
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:49,680
ideal, it's better than having
to pay this guy to do it.

416
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,720
Let's put him somewhere else or
have him do something else.

417
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,800
I mean, those weren't
necessarily very specific risks

418
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,720
that I was like staring down the
barrel of something specific,

419
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,640
but those were some of the the
thoughts that went through my

420
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,720
mind and the go through the
minds of other people who don't

421
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,680
take that leave, right.
So even though it's available,

422
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,200
there is still kind of a
question in a lot of people's

423
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,280
minds.
Is that something that's kind of

424
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:15,120
just on paper?
Is it something that maybe more

425
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:18,200
junior people could get away
with who don't have teams or who

426
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,120
don't have major
responsibilities?

427
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,480
Is it something that maybe
someone who is more stagnant in

428
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,320
their career or happy wherever
they are and not aspirational,

429
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,440
not looking to, you know, try to
get promoted or, or, or take on

430
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,280
more responsibility, Maybe they
would be happy to do that.

431
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,360
So for me, you know, it was much
more complicated than saying,

432
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:38,480
well, I'm going to take, you
know, four months off.

433
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,440
And, and by the way, it's not
really four months off.

434
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,800
It's four months away from your
profession, but actually still

435
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,400
doing the work of a father and a
partner, right?

436
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,120
And, and taking care of
yourself, which is also a really

437
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:52,080
important thing that I talk
about in the book in terms, of,

438
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:53,720
you know, that relationship with
yourself.

439
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,360
So that was really useful time
for me.

440
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,840
It was not an easy decision to
make, but ultimately I was happy

441
00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,520
that I made that decision and I
did take that time.

442
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,720
And did they approve to be a a
downside at work when you

443
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,000
returned at all or was
everything?

444
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:07,800
Good.
Great question.

445
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,320
There was no downside
whatsoever.

446
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,400
And in fact, a number of the
people that I, well, several of

447
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,760
the very senior people more
senior than me that I had spoken

448
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,040
to when I came back, I'd spoken
them before I took leave.

449
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,560
And when I came back, you know,
they said, hey, you know what,

450
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,240
you're an incredible role model.
You know, I'm so happy that you

451
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,720
took that leave.
You really set a good example.

452
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,840
And also, I think a big part of
it for me was that I did have a

453
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,280
reputation for being a, a, a
diligent person who, you know,

454
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,000
work hard and had high standards
for my team and the people that

455
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,080
I worked with and so forth.
And then I did produce.

456
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,280
So it wasn't seen as me really
shirking responsibility.

457
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,040
It was seen as me, you know, my
taking on my responsibility at

458
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,960
home, my responsibility to
myself, putting work in its

459
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,200
appropriate place, that yes, I
can be serious about it, yes, it

460
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,680
does matter to me.
But no, it is not all that

461
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:58,840
matters.
And no, it's not the most

462
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,200
important part of my life, and
certainly not right now.

463
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,280
Yeah.
What would you recommend to

464
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,880
people?
A man that is struggling between

465
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,080
I've got to keep providing and I
want to be present at home.

466
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,920
Is it just deciding what's more
important to you?

467
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,280
Well, I don't know.
I mean, ultimately, yes, you

468
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,720
have to decide what's more
important, but I wouldn't say

469
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:18,800
that it's just deciding because
it's not easy.

470
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,920
And sort of as we spoke about in
terms of wobbling, well, what is

471
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,200
required, it's not a static
state.

472
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,880
Some days you're going to have
to put in more time at work.

473
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,720
You're going to have to pick up
an extra shift.

474
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,000
You're going to have to work on,
you know, work on your project

475
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:33,200
on the weekend or do some
emails.

476
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,320
Or you might have to while
you're burping the baby or

477
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,360
changing the diaper or whatever
it is, you're either thinking

478
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:41,120
about stuff where you're leaving
a voice note, whatever the case

479
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:42,640
is.
I mean, that has to, you know,

480
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,360
you have to find that balance.
But certainly your primary

481
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:48,280
responsibility is providing for
your family.

482
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,120
The question is, is providing
for my family, the way that I've

483
00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:55,200
been doing it, the only way that
it can be done right now?

484
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,280
So I think, I think sometimes
people are making a false choice

485
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,560
between what they have or where
they are and what they want or

486
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,680
what they think is necessary.
And there can be some

487
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,320
variability in terms of how do I
provide on this side, but then

488
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,280
also what is necessary for me to
provide.

489
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:13,720
Maybe we can cut back on some
things.

490
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,760
Maybe what I really was hoping
to achieve or what I really

491
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,120
wanted to provide or produce.
I don't really even need to now.

492
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:22,520
Maybe not at all.
Maybe it's aspirational.

493
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,360
Maybe I want to stock up some
more on my child's education

494
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,160
fund for 20 years from now.
I mean, we, we should just make

495
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,720
some decisions, not easy
decisions, but we have to make

496
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:33,560
some critical decisions.
And then that's a part of being

497
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,120
an adult.
And frankly, I think that's just

498
00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:37,120
a part of being a, a man.
That's a part of being a leader

499
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,800
in any capacity.
You have to make hard decisions.

500
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,000
Yeah.
And one thing I find talking to

501
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,080
so many guests, I, I like to
stress the importance that

502
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,240
providing as a man, it's not
just money, It is your presence,

503
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,720
your, your love, your attention,
your answering questions.

504
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,240
It there's so much more, but I
think so many guys would just

505
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,040
think they're nothing but but
the the the checkbook.

506
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,320
Absolutely.
And Andy, one of the things that

507
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,880
I mentioned in the book as well
is that a lot of, and this is

508
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,800
really a really important point,
a lot of what we aim to provide

509
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,720
for our children are the things
that were either taught to us or

510
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,240
that we experienced the children
that we thought were were

511
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,400
important.
But that doesn't mean that

512
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,120
that's what our children will
necessarily value.

513
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,640
So, for example, if wanted, you
wish your guardian or parents

514
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,200
could have given you a down
payment for your first, first

515
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,560
home, or you wanted a car and
you know, all your friends had

516
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,080
one, but your parents couldn't
get you 1.

517
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:38,560
So you're thinking yourself,
well, I want to make sure that

518
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,000
my kid has a fund for a nice car
when they turn 16 or 18 and it's

519
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,520
going to be a beautiful
graduation present, etcetera,

520
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,760
etcetera.
As such, I have to get promoted,

521
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,640
I have to work harder.
I have to take them on all these

522
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,880
fancy vacations or do certain
things.

523
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,440
Yeah, they're probably going to
appreciate it, but maybe not as

524
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,000
much as you would have have have
appreciated it.

525
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,240
And it probably doesn't mean as
much to them as you might think.

526
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:04,840
And it may not mean as much to
them as spending time with you

527
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,440
or having you in a good mood
when you're at home, right.

528
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:11,640
So is that car worth your bad
mood?

529
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:16,080
And you're being tired or you're
being distracted for months or

530
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,000
weeks or years even on end
because this is how you're wired

531
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,640
and how you're thinking and
approaching, approaching

532
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,360
problems.
And then one of the things too

533
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:26,920
that I think is kind of ironic
and and unfortunate is that

534
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,480
because a lot of men have taken
on this kind of pressure to

535
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,360
provide things for their family,
and the family doesn't really

536
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,800
understand where that's coming
from.

537
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,880
They don't understand the
significance of it.

538
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:38,400
I mean, they may not even be
aware of it.

539
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,440
That leads to a feeling of
dissatisfaction that the man may

540
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,040
feel that he is not being
appreciated for all the

541
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,000
sacrifice that he makes over all
the things that he's trying to

542
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,480
provide.
But the reality is nobody really

543
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,480
understands that.
And the meaning that he's

544
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,080
attributing to it is not meaning
that they're going to be getting

545
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,120
out of it.
So, so it's really important to

546
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:01,680
have that kind of clarity, to
have that good communication and

547
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,480
to try to again, strive for that
balance.

548
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,960
Beautiful.
I believe in your book you talk

549
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,400
about you.
You've created 3 pillars of the

550
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,560
new alpha.
Can you share with those 3

551
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:11,840
pillars are?
Yeah.

552
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,520
So, so I, I also refer to them
as a three domains.

553
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,080
So the three domains are really
based on the relationships that

554
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,440
you have with people at work,
the relationships that you have

555
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:23,920
with people at home.
So this could be your children,

556
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,040
your partner and the
relationship with yourself.

557
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,880
And so the idea there is we've
got a lot of clarity in terms of

558
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,080
frameworks for work.
We have measures of success.

559
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,960
We have, you know, routines and
we know when we're going to talk

560
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,720
about performance and, you know,
we have standards for feedback

561
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,240
and, and, and, and making
changes.

562
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,120
We don't generally have those
kinds of frameworks at home.

563
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,040
We don't generally have measures
of success at all.

564
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,880
We don't have values systems and
placemats and mottos for

565
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,760
families.
And we don't generally dedicate

566
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:03,200
as much time to our own
well-being and our health and

567
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,360
our own growth as we do to the
progress of our companies, which

568
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,600
may not even be our companies,
right.

569
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,120
We may not have any particular
stake other than to be an

570
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,440
employee or a stakeholder in the
company.

571
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,920
Not that that's nothing, but
again, why are we investing the

572
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,880
best of what we have in terms of
time, energy, knowledge for

573
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,120
somebody else's dream as opposed
to fulfilling our own lives or

574
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,240
the lives of the people around
us and who depend on us?

575
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,640
So on the three, the three
domains of those 3 pillars are

576
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,080
really important because one
that allows us to think about

577
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,000
how do we create balance across
them?

578
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,160
How do we create balance within
them and by bringing them all

579
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,680
together, it's how you how you
would establish a fully

580
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:47,920
integrated and well balanced
life.

581
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,720
Cool.
I got to be honest, Alpha is

582
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,280
something I've just, I've always
hated that term.

583
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,160
I find like the manosphere is
just full of so many people

584
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,000
talking about and I'm an alpha.
I'm an alpha and I in my actual

585
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,200
life, when I've met guys who are
naturally in charge, naturally

586
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,240
being things, they've never had
to say I'm the alpha.

587
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,680
So now we're doing this
etcetera.

588
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,480
So what?
What is that original term

589
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,080
without without your 3 domains?
What does that term bring up for

590
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,120
you?
Well, it brings up exactly what

591
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,680
you're, you know what you're
talking about.

592
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,840
And I think there's some
tradition in the word and

593
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,800
there's some hyperbole in the
word and there's a lot of

594
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,760
exaggeration in the word.
And so the idea here is to

595
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,080
challenge that, right?
It's to challenge this notion of

596
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,840
being hyper masculine and super
tough and not being vulnerable

597
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,720
and actually redefining what
success looks like.

598
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,360
Understanding that strange is
built up on vulnerability.

599
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,680
The connection is built on
vulnerability.

600
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,600
It's built on asking for help
and also offering help, right.

601
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,800
And so I think that is
incredibly important.

602
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,360
And, you know, it's, it's
interesting when people talk

603
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:56,400
about being an alpha, it's like
kind of saying that you're

604
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,240
humble or, you know, when, you
know, maybe some lady says I'm

605
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,720
really classy.
You know, who, who, who, who,

606
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,960
who is, who is classy?
Which classy person says I'm

607
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,680
classy, Right.
Which humble person says I'm

608
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:09,760
humble?
Most of the people that I know

609
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,600
that I would consider alphas in
a healthy sense would never,

610
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,920
would never probably even think
of declaring themselves.

611
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,680
They simply are.
Yeah.

612
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:21,720
Cool.
Yeah.

613
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,520
I was going to ask, like, is the
Wall Street environment, did it

614
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,600
have people, like, proclaiming
it and not, you know, I'm the

615
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,040
new Wolf of Wall Street?
But no, it was done by their

616
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,480
their actions, their presence.
Yeah.

617
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,760
I mean, and I think, you know,
look, so, so if you take the two

618
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,040
largest banks in this country,
they have maybe in total around

619
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,880
half a million people who work
for them.

620
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:44,240
And they're not all in this
country.

621
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,760
They're based, but the banks are
based here.

622
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:48,400
But you know, and most of the
people here, but they're global

623
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,720
operations.
If you think of any 500,000

624
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,520
people, you're going to get
people of all kinds, some people

625
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,680
who are very shy, some people
who are very thoughtful, some

626
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,680
who are braggadocious, some who
are super smart, some who are

627
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,600
OK.
But at the end of the day, one

628
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,680
of the misnomers or
misunderstandings, I would say

629
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,440
anyway, about Wall Street is
that it's full of arrogant and

630
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,160
thoughtless people.
Of course there are plenty of

631
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,240
those people, but you have
plenty arrogant plumbers and

632
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,680
cops and bakers and right bus
drivers for sure in this city.

633
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,760
And so I, I think that Wall
Street does in many ways get a

634
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:28,640
bad, get a bad rap a little bit.
But yes, it is, it is certainly

635
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,760
a part of that classic kind of
stereotypical Wolf of Wall

636
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,080
Street ideal.
That isn't generally what I've

637
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,360
come across.
And I don't think that generally

638
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,080
exists really in in the Wall
Street environment.

639
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,640
You're not really going to be
very successful, frankly, if you

640
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,200
if you behave that way
predominantly.

641
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,360
So, Kenyatta, what's the best
way for people to connect with

642
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,280
you?
Are you especially active on any

643
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,600
social media?
So especially LinkedIn actually.

644
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,560
So to be frank, I'm not a big
social media hound, but but the

645
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,640
best, the best place to reach me
from a social media perspective

646
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,040
would be just a follow on
LinkedIn.

647
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,960
But also, you know, people can
go to my website,

648
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,200
executiveparentcompany.com, all
one word and there you will find

649
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,520
out, you know, what was really
the driver behind establishing

650
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,720
executive parent company.
You can read more about the book

651
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:19,720
and there'll be some upcoming
books as well.

652
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,520
So you should continue to to
check that space on this

653
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,440
coaching that's available.
And also in short order, there's

654
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,760
going to be additional
information about workshops that

655
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,400
I provide for others and what
people can expect to get out of

656
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:32,360
those.
Beautiful.

657
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,760
Finally, Kenyatta, what is one
thing you wish more men knew?

658
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,680
So I touched on it a little bit
and I think it really boils down

659
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:49,240
to how freeing it is when you
don't hide or don't feel

660
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,120
compelled to hide your weakness
or your vulnerability.

661
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,240
It is just so liberating to say,
hey, you know what, I'm not good

662
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:58,880
at that and I'm going to work on
it.

663
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,320
Or you know what?
I think I could use some help on

664
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,520
that, believe it or not.
And I'm not going to get into, I

665
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,920
guess all the details because
it's kind of boring, but I had

666
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,960
an epiphany, which is no
epiphany at all really, probably

667
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,360
for most people.
And it was, I think I was just

668
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,040
ready for it.
I was ready to see what I just

669
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:20,480
could have seen or should have
seen.

670
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,679
And I reached out to a number of
people and I said, hey, how did

671
00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:27,400
you make that decision?
What was your thought process

672
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,760
when you were going through,
what were, what were the

673
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,719
tensions that you had to balance
when you kind of made, you know,

674
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:35,719
when you committed to this, to
this decision?

675
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,800
And it was just so interesting
getting the feedback.

676
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,760
And it was so interesting being
sort of in a, in a student kind

677
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,320
of position where I was just
learning and, and absorbing

678
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,840
somebody else's perspective.
I'm often doing that in terms of

679
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,560
an exchange.
I love, you know, I'm, I'm super

680
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,400
intellectually curious.
I, I love reading, I love

681
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,600
learning.
But it was just very different

682
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,480
sort of feeling that openness as
it relates to a question that I

683
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,560
had or something that I have
been struggling with or, or, or

684
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,440
wrestling with.
And so I think the more that we

685
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,320
can, the more than men can open
themselves up to that, the

686
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,080
better it will be.
However, they have to find the

687
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:17,360
community.
One of the things that I've

688
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,160
found is or, or a community that
works for them.

689
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,920
One of the things that I've
found is that men are the most

690
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,640
open and vulnerable with other
men, primarily when there's an

691
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,480
environment that is conducive to
that type of sharing.

692
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,240
And so I would highly encourage
people to try to find those

693
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:37,240
environments.
And I wish, wish men the most

694
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,920
success in that.
But that's one thing I

695
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,760
definitely not only wish that
they knew, but that I hope that

696
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,360
they can discover for
themselves.

697
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,000
Yeah, and that's a great point
to beyond just knowing it, do

698
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,720
something about knowing it.
Right.

699
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:52,760
Cool.
So can I really want to thank

700
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,920
you for sharing a bit of
yourself and your openness, your

701
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:59,160
vulnerability and you're dealing
helping me deal with some

702
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,560
frustrating tech issues as we
tried to get through this

703
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,920
episode.
Again, thanks for so much that

704
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,640
you're doing and being the
example of the of the ideal

705
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:09,840
alpha.
Perhaps you know another new

706
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:12,920
term to phrase it, but sure.
But this was a real pleasure for

707
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,720
me.
I really, really, really enjoyed

708
00:36:14,720 --> 00:36:16,600
it.
Thanks again to Kenyatta for

709
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,280
bringing this conversation to
Real Men Feel.

710
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,760
If you're listening and
something in this conversation

711
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,040
resonated with you.
That feeling of looking

712
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,480
successfully outside but knowing
something deeper is not aligned.

713
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,520
You're not alone.
Real strength isn't pretending

714
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,360
everything is fine.
Real strength is being honest

715
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,720
with yourself.
And if you want a place where

716
00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:37,320
men are having these kind of
conversations every day, I

717
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,200
invite you to join us inside the
Authentic AF community.

718
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,640
It's a space where men drop the
masks, talk about what's really

719
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,640
going on, and support each other
and becoming the men they were

720
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,520
meant to be.
Join us at realmenfeel.org/group

721
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,360
and until next time, be good to
yourself.