Reinventing Yourself: Autonomy, Competence, and Connection

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Here's where I love turning to
something called self

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determination theory.
It's like, imagine just a

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triangle and it is the three
pillars of what we really need

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to feel content in our lives.
And that is autonomy,

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competence, and connection.
We always need that in any part

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of our lives.
So let's say you've got some big

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change that's coming in at work.
You're going to be on a new

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team.
There go your connections, your

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relationships, you have to do
slightly different job.

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There goes your competence and
you're going to be reporting to

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a new boss.
There goes your autonomy.

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Hello and welcome to REAL Men
Feel.

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I'm your host, Andy Grant.
Today's guest is Shelley

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McIntyre.
Shelley is a reinvention coach

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with a focus on corporate
professionals in their 40s and

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50s who have outgrown their
roles and are trying to figure

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out what comes next.
She helps people answer who am I

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without blowing up everything
they work for in the process.

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Today we're talking about why
competence can become a mask,

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self determination theory, the
hidden grief of losing a career

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path.
And while vulnerability and

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honesty may be the fuel for
meaningful change, let's do it.

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Hello Shelly, and welcome to
REAL Men Feel.

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Thank you for having me.
It's my pleasure.

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So what made you go from decades
in corporate strategy and high

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tech into coaching?
What I noticed over time in

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corporate strategy is that, you
know, I would work for these

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firms where we would spend a
really long time creating this

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beautiful strategy for clients
and we would work with their

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executive teams.
And then when we went to roll it

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out to the people who had to
implement that strategy, they

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were like, no, thank you.
And there was so much resistance

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that I didn't really understand
that I wanted to dig into

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essentially the nature of
resistance itself.

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And what I started discovering
is that below the resistance to

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change was a lot of grief.
People were really just scared

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of losing something familiar.
They were scared of losing

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relationships that they had
built.

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They were scared of losing the
competencies that they had

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created over a long period of
time.

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And it made them very averse to
change without really

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understanding why.
So if for me it was like, this

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is the nut, this is the thing
that we have to figure out, or

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none of these changes that
people are introducing are going

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to work, no matter how well
researched they are or no matter

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how well intended they are that
they would fix a million

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problems if we didn't address
the underlying fears of loss.

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Below, new ideas.
We're cooked.

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Fear of loss in the workplace.
I, you know, I get it with

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certainly with layoffs or fear
or restructuring all that, but

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not just around here comes some
changes.

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What are are their most specific
losses that it was?

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I mean, you mentioned
relationships.

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Is it status?
Is it, you know, how people are

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tied to the role and afraid of
changing anything about it?

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Yeah, here.
Here's where I love turning to

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something called self
determination theory, which is a

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super simple theory.
It's like imagine just a

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triangle.
And it is the three pillars of

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what we really need to feel
content in our lives, and that

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is autonomy, competence and
connection.

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So we always need that in any
part of our lives.

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So let's say you've got some big
change that's coming in at work.

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You're going to be on a new
team.

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There go your connections, your
relationships, You have to do

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slightly different job.
There goes your competence.

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And you're going to be reporting
to a new boss.

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There goes your autonomy.
So if we are faced with a threat

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in any one of those 3 pillars,
we're going to push back if we

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don't have a sound replacement
strategy for that thing.

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So a lot of the fears that
people have about any change can

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usually be tied back to one of
those three things.

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Interesting, and you make it
clear that what you do with

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people is not career coaching
but reinvention coaching.

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Can you explain the difference?
Yeah, career coaching, I think

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is super important and valid,
especially if people are like, I

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need to get a new job.
I have to figure out how to

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present myself well.
I need to maybe update the

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language that people in the
market are using today to

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describe their abilities.
Fantastic.

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There are a lot of people who do
that.

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People tend to come to me and
say I don't like who I've

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become.
I don't remember what I like

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anymore.
I want to keep working, but not

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in this corporate environment.
I don't know what the world

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looks like on the outside of it.
Am I good?

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They have these deeper questions
that really go to the root of

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identity.
So we do some excavation.

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In my work, it goes a little
deeper that a lot deeper than

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career coaching so that we find
like, what is the juice that's

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under there that may have been
dampened down by like years of

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corporate flogging that has
sapped you of this beautiful

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personality and these great
interests that maybe you've

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parked in order to adapt to this
corporate environment.

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And is there most common reason
or reasons that like especially

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high achievers just merge their
own identity with the the output

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the competence?
Yeah, because that's how they've

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been incentivized for years.
I mean, they've been rewarded

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for dulling their, you know,
dulling their weirdness.

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They've been rewarded for
getting mean and scrabbling up

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the corporate ladder.
And if you had told them ten

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years ago like this is what
you're going to be like in

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another 10 years, they probably
would have blanched a little.

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And I think there's usually
something that happens.

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There's they maybe they see
like, I don't know, some

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terrible news story or they turn
50 or something happens with

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their kid that is like a wake up
call.

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And they go, you know what?
I my soul, I'm feeling soul rot.

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I'm feeling like I'm not in this
anymore.

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I can't pretend to like what I'm
doing.

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And the mask is starting to come
off.

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And when the mask drops, like
it's hard to put it back on when

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when you feel like, oh, I've
turned a corner here.

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I see this system for what it
is.

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I can't Unsee it and I don't
have any ideas yet for what

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might need what might be next.
When a man comes to you and says

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I'm I'm still good at what I do,
but I just don't feel alive in

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it anymore.
Yeah, is it is it doesn't seem

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like it's grief underneath it at
that point.

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Is it is it more fear or, or is
it grief?

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Yeah, we don't.
We don't use the G word a lot

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and I feel like we should
because, because really

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especially like high achieving
men.

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And I work with a lot of high
achieving men.

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They, they get so much of their
self worth from their status and

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their title.
They're in a culture where

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people are like, whoa, you're
AVP.

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Hey, you must be super
important.

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I don't understand your job at
all.

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But it sounds real fancy and
they get to go, Yep, I'm real

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fancy even though they're
feeling like all I want to do is

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play my guitar and play Legos
and I don't want to be here

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anymore.
Right?

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They they have they tend to buy
into the external perception of

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their value.
So when other people say you are

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fancy and important, some little
part inside them starts

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believing that.
And then when they are faced

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with this idea of you will of
stepping away from the

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affiliation with that title or
with that company, that's when

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Terrors sets in because how are
they going to introduce

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themselves?
Are they just going to say, I'm

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Dirk and I like riding my
mountain bike like that can be

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really scary.
And if we dig under, OK, what's

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scary about that?
Well, people won't know that I'm

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good at stuff.
OK, great.

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What's the worst thing about
that?

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Well, then I'm just going to be
like any random person.

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OK, what's the worst thing about
that?

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Like, well, that I just don't
matter.

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Like, OK, now we're getting
somewhere.

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So we go very quickly from I
don't have that title to hang

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onto anymore to it doesn't
matter if I'm in the world.

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So that's going to be why
layoffs or even a fear of

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layoffs or restructuring talk,
it can feel like a personal

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assault, not just a business
decision, because it's all

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rooted in, Yeah.
So it's all rooted in how we're

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rewarded, how we're recognize
what we and the narrow box we

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perhaps put ourselves into for,
for our identity.

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That's right.
And if we go back to that self

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determination theory, if some,
if you have the threat of a

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layoff, and I've talked to so
many people who are like, it

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might be today, it might be in a
month.

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I'm not in control of this.
That's that autonomy piece where

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you are so accustomed to being
in charge and then you have this

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like hand of God that's going to
come down and make a decision

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for you that's going to affect
your entire life.

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That is deeply scary thing.
What are some of the signs that

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someone isn't just in a a rough
patch at work, but they're

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really doing something that
they'd really be best served by

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moving on to something else?
Yeah, I think there there's a

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couple, one that you don't like
yourself anymore, Like they're

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you're observing your own
behaviors, maybe at work, maybe

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with your family, because it's
easy to bring this stuff home

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with you where you're like, you
know what, I think I'm getting

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mean and I don't want to be
mean.

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Or you go to work and you deeply
no longer believe in what you're

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doing.
Like I've had clients who say I

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can't stomach the idea of what
my company does to make money.

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And I think paying attention to
where these feelings land in

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your body is great.
People will say, like, I've soul

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rot, I feel it in my stomach.
And if it's becoming like an

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identifiable body sensation,
that is such valuable

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information.
A lot of people have trouble

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identifying really precise
feelings.

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It's a very normal thing, but
they can sometimes access

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sensations and the sensations
are really great indicators of

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what you're actually feeling.
If you're saying like I feel, I

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feel it in my stomach, well, you
might be feeling disgusted, you

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might be feeling resentful.
Like if you can get specific

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about how you feel going to work
each day and name it aloud, then

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you've got something to work
with.

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They mentioned anger showing up
as a sign to perhaps that you

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know this isn't where you should
be anymore.

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Or you've.
I don't want to say I don't

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wait.
Wow.

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So here what comes my mind.
I was going to say you've

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outlived your usefulness, which
isn't true, but is that really

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the fear?
Yeah, yes.

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So this is like essentially the
fear of annihilation, right?

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I'm not useful anymore.
Is a deeply scary idea, but it's

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not true.
It's never true.

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This is some, this is somebody
else's voice that is coming up

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and squawking at you from your
shoulder.

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So maybe you feel ineffective in
the corporate system that you're

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part of, but that's an issue
with the system, not with you,

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never with you.
And it really feels like if it

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was ever true, it was
generations ago that you got a

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job, you worked there till you
retired or died.

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And so that's no longer the
world we live in and haven't for

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some time.
But is that still, you know,

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this deep seated ancestral
attachment that that makes every

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restructuring or job loss so
scary?

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Of course, because it's probable
that dad did and it's hard to

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shake.
Like you probably grew up and

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you had a parent who said just
we're going to get, we're going

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to get a great job.
You're going to stay there for

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40 years.
My dad worked at IBM for over 40

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years.
And so we had, we came from this

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culture and this generation who
is trying to teach us you, we

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can't easily shake that, right?
It's we can look at the Gen.

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Z folks out there who are in the
workspace and they're like,

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maybe I'll give a job two years,
but if I don't get these

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promotions, I'm leaving.
Or if I feel like going to

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Tibet, I'm leaving.
And our minds are kind of blown.

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And we wish we could be like
that, but we can't just like hop

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away from our culture, hop away
from our training.

227
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,240
It's hard.
I've heard you talk about

228
00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,640
invisible contracts at work, and
can you explain what what that

229
00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:51,920
is?
Yeah.

230
00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:56,280
So, and, and we inherited this
idea from the previous

231
00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,760
generation, from the boomers and
the older folks.

232
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,920
The contract is I'm going to be
super loyal to this company.

233
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,600
I'm going to give it my all.
I'm going to work on the

234
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,760
weekends.
And in return, this company will

235
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:16,000
reward me with safety and
stability and advancement and

236
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,800
pay at some companies that works
great for quite a long time.

237
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:26,040
Like, I have friends who work at
Microsoft for over 25 years, and

238
00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,520
they could just hop around and
they were rewarded for their

239
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:34,720
loyalty and their tenure.
That contract actually never

240
00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:39,720
existed because the company does
what's in the company's best

241
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,280
interest.
So if at some point they go, you

242
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,480
know what, we're going to
actually abolish this team and

243
00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:49,200
we're going to reorganize this
team because I think that's

244
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,360
going to increase the
shareholder price and that's

245
00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:53,680
going to make the shareholders
happy.

246
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:55,360
It's going to make our board
happy.

247
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,760
So let's just press a couple
buttons.

248
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,800
And these 300 people are laid
off and these 400 people are

249
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,440
restructured.
OK, great job.

250
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,920
And meanwhile, the people who
are affected are like, wait,

251
00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,480
wait, wait, wait, wait.
I thought we had a contract and

252
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:17,440
the company's like contract.
Nope, no, no, we kept you on at

253
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,960
the pleasure of the company.
That was always the contract.

254
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:27,680
So it can be a rude awakening
for people to realize that this

255
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,240
contract was only in their
imagination and only they were

256
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:35,080
upholding it.
So is that similar to being on

257
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,520
the emotional payroll?
Because to me, it's, it was

258
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,520
always important that I be on
that payroll.

259
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,760
So I cared and kept showing up.
But there also becomes a point

260
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,120
where it's a detriment.
Yeah, that's right.

261
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:51,720
And it's not to denigrate the
idea of the contract or the idea

262
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,240
of being on the payroll, because
we also benefit from that.

263
00:16:55,560 --> 00:17:00,160
We get a sense of community.
We get to feel like we're

264
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,920
improving our skills.
We get to feel like we're

265
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,400
working toward a higher purpose
with other people.

266
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,920
Those are all super important
things that we that we can't and

267
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,520
we shouldn't easily let go of.
But I think when we've get

268
00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:22,200
emotionally hooked into that
system and into the idea of the

269
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:29,200
contract, the stakes become very
high and it makes it so that we

270
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,680
don't easily walk away from
something that's bad for us.

271
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,480
So is it sort of like the
comfort zone?

272
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,640
Even though I know this position
is no longer good for me, I'm

273
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,520
used to it, so I'm going to stay
here until I'm almost forced

274
00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,120
out.
Yeah, and, and comfort.

275
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,120
Comfort is like a wolf in
sheep's clothing in a, in a way,

276
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,200
it's a familiarity zone.
Like I, I like to think of it as

277
00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:01,200
like I've got this cloak and the
cloak protects me and I'm going

278
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:04,040
to wear the cloak everyday.
The cloak is made of razor

279
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,200
blades.
However I am, I'm used to the

280
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,160
feeling now.
The blood doesn't bother me

281
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:11,000
anymore.
So I'm just going to keep

282
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,520
putting this razor blade cloak
on and we're going to call it

283
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,320
comfort.
It's really familiarity.

284
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,480
I believe you.
You talk of four phases to

285
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:24,840
reinvention.
So yeah.

286
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,120
What are they, and is anyone
more difficult than the others?

287
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:34,160
Sure.
Yeah, Identity crisis usually is

288
00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,280
like the first one of who am I?
Why?

289
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,400
I thought I was going to be a,
you know, veterinarian.

290
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,960
And now here I am as a business
analyst and I don't recognize

291
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,440
myself anymore.
So the first is just like, how

292
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:56,920
did I get here?
And and then it's more like, OK,

293
00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,880
we have to build this new
foundation of remembering who we

294
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:08,680
are and practising a new, which
could be an old way of being in

295
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,560
the world to reconnect what we
love.

296
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,600
And then we've got to like
explore some possibilities.

297
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,760
We have to go out and test like,
oh, do I like pickleball?

298
00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:22,320
I don't know.
Do I like playing the ukulele?

299
00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,360
I don't know, do I like, like,
what do I like?

300
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:30,880
And that can be a scary thing
for people to do because they've

301
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,640
spent a really long time just
getting up and going to work and

302
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,560
working 10 hours a day and then
maybe dealing with kids stuff on

303
00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:40,600
the weekend.
And they've had, they have no

304
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,240
hobbies, they've had no time for
themselves.

305
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,720
And even carving out that time
for that kind of experimentation

306
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,160
takes a lot of effort and
dedication.

307
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,280
But it's the only way out
because we have to get, we have

308
00:19:55,280 --> 00:20:00,280
to get information in our bodies
to know whether it's a good Ave.

309
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,520
to pursue.
Was that why so many men have to

310
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,840
hit some sort of crisis in order
to even consider making changes

311
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,560
in not not just work, but in in
their overall life?

312
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:20,680
Yeah, I think it's while it's
like post traumatic growth is

313
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:26,880
clarifying and you can point to
something like you have a story

314
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,040
to tell.
This thing happened or I turned

315
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:34,160
50 or my wife got a breast
cancer diagnosis.

316
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,160
Like there's some major
precipitating event that that

317
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:43,720
becomes your narrative that is
untouchable by others.

318
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,520
So if somebody says this thing
happened and as a result I

319
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,440
changed my job or changed my
life, other people will go, oh

320
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:57,160
dude, that totally makes sense.
It's like us.

321
00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:02,000
It's like a protection, like a
protection from critique from

322
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:07,680
the outside.
However, pre traumatic growth is

323
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,600
more interesting.
If you say I see where I'm

324
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,480
headed here, I see that there
could be a heart attack in my

325
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,400
future, I see that I'm at risk
for stroke.

326
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,760
I am pre diabetic.
I don't want to experience that

327
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,120
trauma.
So how can I grow?

328
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,280
How can I address this identity
crisis?

329
00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,160
How can I do some, you know,
foundation building?

330
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,280
How can I start some
experimentation now while I'm

331
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:47,200
still employed so that I can
stave off this crisis and have

332
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,680
something that I am drawn to
rather than pushed to?

333
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,280
Because being drawn to something
new, it's so much more powerful

334
00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:04,880
and joyful than being pushed.
You see a difference between men

335
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,720
and women and their ability to
see the opportunity of pre

336
00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,720
traumatic growth.
That's a good question.

337
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,080
I see a difference in
opportunity to act on it.

338
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:28,200
A lot of men have the luxury of
being able to explore and dabble

339
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,400
because they tend to not have as
many caretaking

340
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:37,320
responsibilities.
It can be a great thing for men

341
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,440
to go all right, I have this
window of calm in my life where

342
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,440
I hate my job.
I need to get out of there.

343
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,320
Things are kind of handled at
home.

344
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:55,720
So I do have the bandwidth to
take on a new hobby or to do a

345
00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,840
little exploring.
So I I do tend to see that they

346
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,720
have some more opportunities
with their time than women do.

347
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,240
Interesting because in in my
lived experience and about 90%

348
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,000
of the men that I ever
encounter, it's been a theme

349
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,360
this this whole year on the
show.

350
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:17,880
Like why do men, mostly so many
men have to hit rock bottom

351
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:22,880
before they will make a change
or or even just ask for support

352
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,320
or help?
But you but you simply you, you

353
00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,640
see it differently.
You see, maybe it's the kind of

354
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,160
people that are coming to you.
There they are.

355
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:32,720
They do see, you know, the the
train headed their way and

356
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,440
they're willing to ask, like,
what else can I do instead of

357
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,480
get hit by it?
Yeah, I mean, that's not the

358
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,320
majority of people.
I think I I do agree with you

359
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:49,480
that a crisis is just, it's just
permission to move is a crisis.

360
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,640
But you always could give
yourself that permission at any

361
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,360
moment.
It's just that you are in this

362
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:01,840
culture that tells you that you
can't, that tells you that the

363
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:07,080
only way, the only valid reason
to make a dramatic change is the

364
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,240
crisis.
But that was always untrue.

365
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:14,400
You could just do it when you
wanted to.

366
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,120
In the show, I talk a lot about
the power, the power of

367
00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:23,360
vulnerability and authenticity.
Still, so many men think that

368
00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:26,520
being vulnerable, especially
high achieving men in the

369
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,360
workplace, think that will make
them seem weak.

370
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,080
They'll get less respect.
What do you see as the real fuel

371
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,120
that that's needed for
reinvention?

372
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:42,600
Well, it's such a funny thing
that keeps getting perpetuated

373
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:49,440
about vulnerability and weakness
when it's actually the bravest

374
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:54,360
possible thing.
Like, Can you imagine, you know,

375
00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:01,080
a man, any man that can say, I'm
feeling really scared about this

376
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,000
and I'm not sure how this is
going to go.

377
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,960
I've got to do some
experimenting.

378
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,560
I'm worried about how I'm going
to be perceived like that takes

379
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,160
a lot of balls to be able to say
that out loud.

380
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:23,000
Those are the bravest people who
can say that and feel secure in

381
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:27,200
who they are and and want to
build something better for

382
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,720
themselves.
I think.

383
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:35,560
I think a lot of times when when
people react so like let's say

384
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:39,520
somebody is getting super
emotional and they're sharing

385
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,520
their feelings and you've got
somebody else going.

386
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:48,720
Oh my God, who is this Sissy?
What that person with that

387
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:54,360
critiquing person could be
feeling many layers below.

388
00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:59,160
They have what they have access
to is why don't I get to express

389
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,760
my feelings in this way?
I don't want you to be able to

390
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,800
do this because it means that I
would have to feel my feelings,

391
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,840
and my feelings are really scary
and I don't know how to deal

392
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,480
with them.
So it's going to be a lot easier

393
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:15,240
and supported by my culture if I
call you out for being weak.

394
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,720
Yeah, that's one of the I've had
the pleasure to be in lots of

395
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,800
different men's groups and
that's where the competitive

396
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,240
competitiveness of men can
really benefit because it's just

397
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,200
like one person to to lead with
vulnerability, to be open, to

398
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,040
get emotional.
And then other guys like that's

399
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,360
what we're doing here.
OK, I could do this, but out of

400
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:38,720
that, yeah, it it is often the
opposite and there's judgement

401
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,240
and and shutting down.
And what a beautiful thing if

402
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,360
you're in a group with other men
or if you're in a group at work,

403
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:53,720
to be the type of leader who can
normalize that kind of emotional

404
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,440
way of being in the world.
You get to set an example for

405
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,840
other people that it's OK to
feel your feelings.

406
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,200
Yeah, and it was stressed.
That doesn't mean that we are

407
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,360
suggesting every CEO should open
every meeting.

408
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,120
Crying like men feel their
feelings does not mean you're

409
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:12,720
walking around bawling all the
time.

410
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,800
It's just open and honest with
whatever's going on.

411
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:20,840
You know, I in my work, I use
this emotions wheel a lot, which

412
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,360
is just lists, you know, dozens
and dozens and dozens of emotion

413
00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:28,640
words.
And it's such a handy tool to

414
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,240
hand to somebody and say, how
are you really feeling where

415
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,480
they get to go?
You know, 2 layers deeper than

416
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,560
mad, sad, and glad, right?
Because mad, sad and glad are

417
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:45,760
the ones people have access to.
But like, feelings are neutral.

418
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,880
You know, people say there are
bad emotions and good emotions.

419
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,800
Nope.
They are all valid experiences

420
00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:00,160
of being a person in the world.
But if we can get specific and

421
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,360
name them, we'll see that
there's like, I don't know, 50

422
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:10,440
words for happy and there's 50
words for like, I'm not sure

423
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,520
about that.
So if we increase our emotional

424
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:20,080
vocabulary, I think we'll be
able to see that feeling or

425
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,280
being emotional is such a wide
panoply of different things.

426
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:30,040
And Once Upon a time, I was a
struggling screenwriter, and I

427
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,520
discovered the Emotion wheel.
Just to give me more, you know,

428
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,400
to act as a, a thesaurus of, of
emotions and character traits.

429
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,960
And, and now, yeah, I, I, that's
one of the first things I, I

430
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,000
share with a new client.
I, I send them a copy in the

431
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,320
mail or hand it to him in, in
person.

432
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,640
But like here, this will help
you put what's going on inside

433
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,160
of you.
Give it, give it a word like,

434
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,480
'cause, yeah, so many guys
hungry, horny, happy, you know,

435
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:53,720
that's it.
Or angry.

436
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:58,240
And you know, Cappy is rare for
a man to be allowed to feel or

437
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:00,040
ever encourage to feel that.
So yeah.

438
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,600
So you you've mentioned such
things as exploring, you know,

439
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,960
pickleball and your hobbies.
What are some low stakes way for

440
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,920
a man who's questioning and
asking, well, who am I?

441
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,480
And is this, you know, have I
lived?

442
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:20,360
My is, is my usefulness, is my
identity, all the different

443
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,600
fears, the grief, It's, it's all
bubbling.

444
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,200
What are some low stakes first
steps that someone can take?

445
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,880
They probably know somebody who
has gotten out.

446
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,160
Maybe they were, maybe it was a
colleague who was laid off.

447
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,680
Maybe it was somebody who left
to start a business or buy a

448
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,800
franchise or whatever.
They, whatever it is, just start

449
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,200
calling people on the outside
and say, hey man, can I buy you

450
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,840
a beer and talk about and just
hear about their journey.

451
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:57,920
You know, I remember the first
time I left a long term job and

452
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,560
I was driving around during the
day and I was going to an

453
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,840
appointment or something and I'm
and I had been accustomed to

454
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,080
just being trapped in an office
from 8:00 to 6:00 every day for

455
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,920
years and years.
And I'm driving around.

456
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,240
I'm like seeing all these other
people on the street like, who

457
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,320
are you people?
Where did what, Why aren't you

458
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,520
at work?
What are you doing?

459
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,960
And it was such an eye opener to
start talking to people and

460
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,640
realizing there are lots of ways
to live.

461
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,800
There are lots of ways to earn
money and everybody's been

462
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,360
through some kind of transition
that you can get some knowledge

463
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,440
and wisdom from.
So a super low stakes way is

464
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,880
just start talking to people who
aren't in your corporate

465
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,160
environment anymore.
And Chilli, what's the best way

466
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,240
for people to connect with you
and learn more about all that

467
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,080
you offer?
They can check out my podcast,

468
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,280
Burn the Map, or they can look
at my website,

469
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,120
burnthemapcoaching.com.
Tell me a bit about your

470
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,040
podcast.
Insights for about 7 minutes at

471
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,560
a time.
They're super short episodes

472
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:09,640
where it's just me talking about
one small topic related to lots

473
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,040
of what we've been talking about
here.

474
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,960
And finally, Shelley, what is
one thing that you wish more men

475
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:24,400
knew?
I wish more men knew that their

476
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:29,080
value is inherent because they
are a person on this earth.

477
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,360
Beautiful, awesome.
Couldn't agree more with that.

478
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,400
And you know, I really love so
much of the reframing work that

479
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,000
that's that that's the best
label I can think of right now

480
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,800
that, you know, no matter how
much you've achieved, you're not

481
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,000
just your resume and there's a,
there's a whole bright world

482
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,520
that's available to you.
Absolutely.

483
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,640
Thanks again, Shelly, for this
powerful conversation.

484
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,960
So many men have been taught to
measure themselves by

485
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,560
productivity, performance, and
how well they can hold it all

486
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,280
together.
But when a job changes, a title

487
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:06,120
disappears, or life starts
asking deeper questions, that

488
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,600
identity can crack.
Reinvention is not failure.

489
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,360
Honesty is not weakness.
And there could be real power in

490
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:17,480
asking what comes next.
If this conversation hit home

491
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,400
for you and you're looking for a
place to dig deeper, join us in

492
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:26,120
the authentic AF community,
visit realmanfield.org group,

493
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,000
and until next time, be good to
yourself.