The Depression Files

0:00 You are listening to real men, feel with Andy grant real men, feel encourages men to allow and express all of their emotions, despite what you may have been taught all emotions, do serve you real. Men feel is committed to engaging in discussions that most men aren't having, but all men can benefit from all links mentioned in each episode. Are in the show notes found on the blog at real men, feel dot-org. Now let's get to it. Hello. And welcome to another edition of real men. Feel, this is your host, Andy Grant. Point. Well we are still in the midst of the coronavirus pandemic. Unless ideally by the time you listen to it it's all a thing of the past and no one even remembers what I'm talking about but I don't think that's going to be the case but nerves are high anxiety. Anxiety is high, there's a lot of fear. So today we're going to talk about a really cheery subject, depression, joining me today is mental health, Advocate podcaster, Nami speaker, logger and Coach, mr. Levin, welcome to the show.

0:59 Good. How you Andy, thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure. I've been looking forward to a connecting, you to connecting with you for a while. First, I just want to ask, like, so, how are you really at this crazy time? I'm doing. Well, it has been really a crazy time like you said, and I think it's probably been crazy for most listeners. You know, for me here in and school administrator and st. Paul public schools, and we recently had a strike And so all the teachers were on strike us administrators were in the building with essentially on our own and teachers settled and came back to work for about one day. And then we were told that we were going to be working remotely, teacher started working remotely, and then administrators a couple days later. So, this week is my first week working remotely as a public school administrator.

1:57 And so, it's really, it's really Inaud, and I think st. Paul Public Schools. I give them a lot of credit. They are pumping out a ton of information. We're getting things rolling really fast. We're having remote meetings already and getting ready for distance learning starting after next week, which is our spring break. Oh, cool. Because I know some place some places around the country of seem to be closing. Some it seems like it's up to each School up to each teacher to come up with content. Try to get in touch with students but you sound like you guys have a real sense. Realized plan. Yeah, we definitely have a plan in our K. Through 2. Teachers are going to be using a platform called seesaw primarily in our grades 3 through 12 are going to be using, schoology, which they've used for a long time. So I, you know, it'll be interesting to see it roll out and, you know, I was trying to joke about a serious subject but that's how the only way I can talk about it for my experiences to is to try to bring some humor into it, but are you In in students and teachers and family and friends is, there are people really on edge you seeing more depression, or is it not kind of sucks, you know, it's hard to say about depression like clinical depression but definitely people are on edge, people are feeling overwhelmed in many ways. You know, our staff are trying to work remotely which they've never done our teaching.

3:23 Our paraprofessionals are trying to figure out their role and we're trying to meet with them and they haven't had the, you know, Perience, on technology, like our teachers have so a lot of it is new to them, they're feeling overwhelmed in that respect, but they're also feeling overwhelmed, you know, being parents or older folks and everybody's got their own situation. But I think the combined, let's try to, you know, get this online distance learning rolling as quickly as possible get through all this information being fed to us and understand it and get it up and rolling at. And at the same time dealing With like, I mentioned family situations and other things. I think a lot of people are overwhelmed. I don't know about depression right now. I think definitely some, but I haven't seen it myself with the people.

4:12 I work with cool. Yeah, we're trying. We're trying, you know, like you mentioned adding humor and stuff and and you know, it's a fine line to I have learned the hard way from screwing up myself by, you know, trying to bring light, to some things that are very seriously. Very serious and could be very, very triggering for certain people depending on what they're going through, right? So and I never want to make light of coronavirus because I want to make sure people are taking it very seriously. Yet at the same time, you know, there's some pretty funny memes out there and things to try to keep some lightheartedness but not take away. The the fact that it's important and that's kind of how I try to do a lot of my advocacy work at least on Twitter. I try to add humor where I can because it's not a very humorous Subject.

5:01 But I try to add it where I can, and I think people would see if they listen to my podcast, it's all interviews of men, but there are a fair amount of laughs depending on who I'm interviewing and what we're talking about. Cool. So let's dive into that. Let tell me about your podcast which is called the depression files. Yep. So the depressed, I'm sorry, the depression files and the podcast, I have almost 70 interviews published currently. So every single episode is a an interview with a man who has dealt with depression and or some other type of mental illness. Originally, my thought was just guys who have gone through depression. And I realized after, probably, my first five interviews, like, wow, these guys are dealing with many mental illnesses.

5:46 So it was really cool. And I just kind of started promoting it that way and adding the fact that it could be other mental illnesses. And it's really cool to be able to speak to these men, and to be able to dig deep and learn about them. Experiences. I have three goals for the show. The first goal is to educate those who know little about depression and, or other mental illnesses to support those who are going through depression, or another mental illness. And finally, to chip away at the stigma, I think there is a lot of power in sharing our stories, and the more people share, the more likely others are to share.

6:26 And, or to reach out for help, I spoke publicly. Luckily in front of all the st. Paul Public School administrators and and shared my story and even two years after that talk, some people reached out to me to say, you know what, I'm finally talking about the abuse. I dealt with as a kid and, and sharing that story and advocating around it. So, you know, it's just a testament to the more, we share our story. So I really want to give men voice to share their stories in a platform to do that and it's been It's selfishly. I get to learn a ton about so many different mental illnesses and I just love meeting these men and hearing their stories.

7:08 Cool, cool. And you mentioned, you had some sort of experience because I was sure that nobody creates something called the depression files without first having some experience of their own in regards to that. Yeah, absolutely. So I have had two bouts of major depression. My first one was really easy to understand why I had been promoted. Get into a principal position in the district. And at the time, I had a five-year-old, a three-year-old, and two newborns. So so a lot on the plate and like, unlike many, I'm sorry, like many other principles, and people who are promoted into those roles.

7:49 I came into a really challenging position. There were cuts to the budget already and I was cutting people who hadn't even met and we were getting out. Rages class sizes and there were technical issues in the building and just a lot on the plate and then to come home to a five-year-old three-year-old. And two newborns was it was a lot on the plate and and it was also difficult for me because I didn't see the family very often. I was up. And and at work before anybody was out of bed and nine times out of ten, I was always home after dinner and nine times out of ten after bedtime. So, after two years, what So I did start experiencing depression and I saw my family doctor and that was a bizarre experience. One of the symptoms I had at the time at least when I was visiting with him was kind of fidgeting and I was pacing in this little office that was four by four and I literally couldn't sit down which was really weird for me and he walked in and right away was just like, whoa, what's going on? And shared with them my story.

9:01 And he said, this is definitely depression. He started me on a medication and I started some talk therapy and I think, you know, I got better after a couple of months and I was able to stay at work, but it was rough. And then after two years as a principal, I asked to voluntarily step down, back to an assistant principal mostly, because I wanted to see my family again and be a part of my kids lives. So and then my second year as an assistant principal, all of a sudden, out of nowhere, came my second bout of depression and I still remember sitting in a car with my brother. And best friend saying, you know what my body feels really different.

9:46 And this isn't going to be good and I started to crash and I crashed hard and wasn't able to really communicate with people found myself at a Thanksgiving dinner, sitting at the kitchen island countertop, Ching, my family and friends like communicating and I couldn't even associate with them. And you know, I wasn't sleeping. I couldn't sleep at all and my, my wife and I talked that night and said, you know, if this is how I Am With Friends, what's it like at work and we didn't want my boss, I had a new boss at his at that time. My second year as an assistant principal, the school got a new bought, a new principal but different building that I was then when I was a principal. But I shared with him and I didn't want him to think I was just incompetent, so my wife and I agreed that I should tell him what was going on met with him at a coffee shop. The very next morning and shared with him what was going on and he just said, you know what, go home and take care of yourself. We'll be.

10:45 Alright, at school. And as I walked out of the coffee shop, he called my wife to say Al just shared what's going on. And I want you to know, he's on his way home. Just to make sure he gets there. So obviously he was very supportive. But yeah, so so I ended up taking originally ten days off and I always call them unstructured days. I had no plans. I was trying to adjust my meds and seeing a psychiatrist and figured okay after two weeks I'll be better. And and I'll go back to work, but you know, I wasn't sleeping at all. I couldn't eat, I had a huge knot in my stomach.

11:26 I was rolling around in bed. Not sleeping. I would tell my wife during the day, hey, my psychologist said, it's like a brain injury and I need to nap. I would stay in bed for like 3 hours during the day, trying to nap and just roll around in bed, but that was like my safe space. So I did that. And I remember laying down with my daughter one night and because I used to when they were that age, I would lay down with them and get them to bed. And then my wife would, we would usually wake me up 15 minutes later and be like, okay, they're asleep. And my daughter nudged me in the side and she was like, all right, Dad, I'm good. I was like, okay and I didn't get up. I figured if I laid down long enough with her, that I would wake up and it would be time for me to get ready for bed for myself.

12:14 I just, I would create a list of things to do, like, do one load of laundry, clean one bathroom, and I couldn't do any of it. I was on the couch or I was in bed. Sometimes I was connected at my wife by The Hip not knowing what I should be doing. It was really Really bizarre. And then I decided to go back to work. There was about a week or two week period before winter break and I thought that would be a good trial period And I started having some, I wasn't getting better and I started having some generalized thoughts of suicide and I knew that I had a really washed wishy-washy psychiatric PA and I went and I told him hey I'm having some generalized thoughts of suicide.

13:04 Here is this, could it be the meds as paradoxical as it is that the fact that antidepressants have black box warning saying that they could increase thoughts of suicide, or could it be my depression? He said, yeah, could be either, he raised my meds and then my Suicidal Thoughts, my crying bouts got worse, hold it together. All day and ball at night. My Suicidal Thoughts became a plan. I mean I found myself doing some really weird things like in the dark in my bedroom with my laptop open searching, I just Googled suicide. And the first sight, I found showed the methods, the number of seconds to death and the number 0 to 10 and how painful it would be. And I slammed my laptop shut and just couldn't believe I was doing that.

13:54 Finally created a plan that was viable and I knew how how I was going to do that and I couldn't get the thoughts out of my head as much as I try to push him away and then they'd be there in like 20 minutes later. And finally, I woke up one night and drempt was dreaming about it and woke up and was scared as hell and invited my wife and my sister to go to my psychiatric appointment to, to support me and they did, and my wife really put her, my sister really put her foot down and said, look, he needs more because the Your PA said, you know, you could take work off, but that could be stressful to and what do you do? What do you tell them? So, I did take time off and checked myself into a partial hospitalization program for three weeks, which was a great start Kickstart to the recovery.

14:47 So that was lengthy. Sorry about that. Andy, no, no, never never apologize for sharing, something like that. No, and I just want to take a minute and take it out in for myself. Yeah, it's a lot of it got really, really heavy and like I said, I couldn't even believe the things I was doing and how much it impacted my focus, my memory, my cognition, I was driving my daughter, a block and a half away to pick up a carpool. Kid who had driven with many times and I got lost. It's literally one turn from our house about six blocks and I got spun around and had to pull over and pull out Google Maps. And I was so, Fairest and worried that my daughter was going to see what I was doing.

15:32 I was trying not to let her know. Yeah, everything is. It's almost like there's a PTSD for suicide attempts because everything you're saying, I'm just having different flashbacks different times in my own life and I know that site I know those feelings, I know there's experiences so I hear you and thank God, you had such a supportive family and and workplace and and Community, huh? Absolutely absolutely. And I think that's so important that people reach out for help because Because I mean, I was really close to to to, you know, taking my own life and I was very close to it and I know that if I didn't reach out and ask for help, I would have been in dire trouble. Yeah, yeah.

16:22 And as difficult as it is that is the most important thing to do to reach out for help. And some people say, you know, I don't have family, I don't have you know a tight friend I can ask but there's always always. It might be a clergy member, it might be a suicide hotline might be the, ER, depending on where you're at, you know, in your depression, but there is somebody and you need to reach out and if you get a bad response because some people are like, well I tried and they blew me off. Well then you try somebody else. Yeah. You know, right? Yeah. So important, right. God's sake, don't? It's not a sign that you're meant to die. If that first person you you decide to take a risk with doesn't take it well or yeah the suicide hotline you know you get Connected it like its it just is a disconnection like don't try to make it into something else.

17:10 And then in fact, in fact, when I was in a really bad place, the first person I decided to reach out to essentially blew me off. It was somebody who had worked with, who was a coach of mine. And I said, you know, I'm really in a bad place really struggling. And it was really difficult for me to reach out and the person was like, you know, we have a coaching relationship, we can't, you know, taint that like and and I was thinking like this is the Positive person in my life. This is why I'm reaching out and I got shut down. And that was really, really hard but it didn't stop me from then reaching out to others, you know. I think I might I might take it for granted as as living through that kind of knowing that so often what people need is just that save space just to stand there and hear it right?

17:59 That person didn't have to do anything but they couldn't deal with that uncomfortableness because I talking to someone who is feeling like they are better off dead, it almost it's so unnatural. It could be so uncovered for someone that's never thought that it's just like it's a mostly just can't deal with it. They don't know what to do with it. So it's not a reflection on the person telling them what's up. It's just that they just cannot resonate or perhaps it troubles them for something that they've never even like acknowledging themselves, right? But, you know, it's but it's about them, it's not about you. So don't take it as a another Lamb a judgment against you, it's just that. Yeah. Just, you know, unfortunately, you pick someone that just wasn't capable of hearing it in that moment at least, right?

18:45 Right. And I tell people, you know, you don't have to be a therapist or a doctor to listen to somebody and to ask somebody if they're okay. And to listen, you know, and to listen empathetically and and hear them out and offer support and, you know, hopefully they aren't in such a dire situation, but you really have to listen Listen closely and make your decision of next steps based on what they're they're saying. All right, all right, and in case someone is listening now and is getting any sort of triggering thoughts their own. I just do want to share the National Suicide Lifeline in the United States. One eight hundred two, seven, three, eight, two, five five. That's one eight hundred two seven, three talk and and just tell someone just get it off your chest and stop ruminating about it because I found that was the worst thing.

19:31 And I always felt better telling someone how bad I felt Um, not for the sake of like a drama show, just just uh feeling that. That a bit of the weight is gone. Is that been your experience? Yeah, definitely definitely. So it sounds like from even your first episode that you could tell the people you work with and you were supported through through both experiences both episode. So, it's interesting. I told my boss and that was it at work and I had no option. I knew. I need it off and I knew I needed to tell, I guess I could have just said I was sick. I think I had only known him for a few months, but we had really bonded and I really trusted him and shared with him and but I didn't want anybody else to know. And it's really incredible looking back, just how much shame I had.

20:26 I walked up and down the aisles of Walgreens our Pharmacy, little drug store, I would walk up and down. Isles to make sure no neighbor was in there. Before I went to the Towner to ask, like God forbid. Somebody heard I was asking for an antidepressant, right? So I would walk the place and make sure no neighbor was in there. And then I get home and I would tear up the paperwork into tiny little pieces as if somebody might go through my trash and see the name of an antidepressant like it's really, really odd. Or I went to a behavioral health clinic that was, you know, not too far from st. Paul, where I work and I've been in the school district since 99. So, so I know a lot of people in the in st. Paul.

21:08 And it was a behavioral health clinic, so I couldn't say. Yeah. If I bumped into somebody, I'm here from my yearly, physical, you know, I'm going to behavioral health clinic, so, I was tempted. I asked, you know, do a lot of people from st. Paul, come here. And they were like, yeah, and I was very close to leaving my psychiatrist because I didn't want to bump into somebody who might see me there a lot of Shame involved. And I think that's, Part of the challenge of reaching out that did, did you ever face the stigma of it, or was it just fear of the potential of, even having stigma against yourself? I think it was mostly the fear of the stigma and avoiding people, I mean, even when I was at home, I wouldn't go out to the store because I didn't want to see somebody to have to explain why I wasn't at work.

22:02 Right? You know, you look healthy. You look fine. So, you know, I never and I had already communicated with my boss and he was supportive. So I I can't really say that. That I felt the stigma now that you ask, but I definitely believe there's a strong stigma out there. I think it's still, you know, and I think that's partly where the shame comes from. I think. And a lot of people even Nami has come out. And said, you know, we shouldn't use the word stigma we should use the word discrimination and I have my own take on that. I believe. If we could get rid of the stigma, there would be less discrimination. So I think it's important to talk about both because if there was no Stigma, nobody would be discriminating, right? We would understand what it's about and we would have more empathy for people just like we do when somebody's out because of cancer or heart disease did, have you ever looked at What the shame was rooted in like were you conscious of what you were afraid of happening?

23:06 Yeah, you know, I think for whatever reason just a mental illness comes with. With the shame, I think many people, I mean, I can't say everybody has that, that would obviously not be correct. And I don't think I would have it again. Luckily, I've only had the two bouts of depression. I've been, you know, mentally fit for a long time but I believe the work I'm doing is helping to chip away at the stigma by getting men to speak about it, but I do think. Yeah. It's hard to say because like whatever fear was You quiet then has obviously been shattered. Yeah, since you're speaking publicly, you're doing your podcast, I'm just wondering if you ever like, you know have you ever realized?

23:53 Oh this is what I was afraid would happen but it I see that it doesn't happen. Yeah I think the the mental illness for one thing just impacts your mind in your brain so much that that you can't think logically. You can't understand that this is just an illness like cancer or Thing else but I do think also is the reactions. Many people have you know if we I mean I've been writing a Blog as well also called the depression files and I would have a coat one of the teachers who I work with know about my blog and she'd come into my office, she would still walk all the way back by my desk and whispered to me I read your last post and I'd feel like it's not a secret.

24:45 Even say that out loud. Yeah, you know but there's still this tendency that we don't really talk about it. We keep it a secret. If somebody dies by Suicide you know you it's it's maybe a little more common that people are willing to share that and I understand the difficulties also because those sharing it isn't that person. But I don't know. I just I do feel like the stigma is still there. Some of it is self-stigma like your kind of pointing out the fact that I didn't realize I wasn't really Discriminated against, I didn't really, but yeah. So I think some of the stigma is within and I think definitely there are plenty of stories about people not getting hired or getting fired and such because of a mental illness, are not getting the accommodations that they would, if they had another physical illness, right?

25:37 Yeah, I'm so I dealt with, with depression Suicidal Thoughts From A really young age. So, I kind of now, by the time, In college I was like, I don't care. Like I'm it's my types of hide. It didn't work, so I don't, I didn't care who knew so I've never really had to deal with that as an adult. I've been pretty open and actually a couple years ago last month on a job hunt, you know, now job locations. Like oh do you want to say that you have any sort of mental illness for the sake of, you know, tracking and government? I don't even know why I said like, like should I say yes? But like, well, am I likely to be more hired? Now they looking for the mentally, it was like, what should I do with this question now? So now it's like, as it totally flip Like they're trying to get us, so it's yeah, it's really bizarre. But yeah, we always like to, you know, ask people about what their because I know that I've discovered, you know, in my life action cures fear, right?

26:28 Everything I used to be terrified of now, I don't like, oh my God, that this, this is the thing. I used to be totally afraid of anyone finding out, and now I hear him talk about it all the time. And I just wondered if you've had those moments of realizations, you know, I think like you said, now that I'm talking about it and everything. Can I have no fear of it and I'm trying to work at diminishing the stigma. But at the time, I certainly had a lot of fear of people knowing people finding out, I don't, I think it was unfounded, you know. It would be interesting to me. I do not want to go through another bout of depression, but I am kind of curious, like would I be able to share it and feel the way I do now about others, who are living with a mental illness, or would I fall into this shame again?

27:12 If depression fell, Pardon me again. You know, I really don't know the answer and I hope I never know the answer because I really don't want to get there again. You know, I think everybody's depression is very different, right? I talk to Men Who some guys or people in general, right? I just reference men because that's who I've been interviewing but people have different types of depression, some live with, what used to be called dysthymia, which is now just called chronic depression. And so it's a low-grade, although they may disagree and say no, no, it's not low, right? But a constant depression others, go through Cycles, some that are easy to recognize the cycle. So for example, sad seasonal, affective disorder where it's coming around in the winter typically and those dark days dark months and then they're okay until the next winter. Some are going every few weeks, they had a depressive cycle and some are just cycling on and off and there's no Pattern. The the depression I have had at least so far was a depression in 2010 and a depression in 2013.

28:23 They were both incredibly awful and I would never wish them upon my worst enemy which is part of the reason I'm out advocating but I feel really pretty lucky to be the type of person who is not cycling through. But I'm also, I'm still on medication, I'm still going to a men's support group for Russian anxiety every other week. I'm doing the podcast on talking about it and sharing about it. I'm trying to make sure I'm exercising more, so I'm definitely in a different place about watching for it and taking care of it. But I really, I feel lucky for two reasons, one, I do feel lucky that I've gone through it because it really gives me a different kind of empathy for people with a mental illness.

29:10 And I certainly had some of the very negative stereotypes that I'm Embarrassed to mention, but will because I think it's important like in my mind mental illness. I would think of somebody begging on the street for money, you know, and I wouldn't even think like why what might have happened to them to get them in that place, you know. But that was one of my very negative stereotypes. So I think it has grown me immensely with a different type of empathy and I get to, you know, like I said interview and learn so much about Out it and I really feel like I'm helping people. It's, it's an incredible feeling to feel like I'm doing good and putting good out into the world and supporting people and hopefully saving lives and that feels really, really good. So yeah.

30:00 So I'm thankful that I went through the depression and like I said, I'm very thankful that I've had two bouts and hopefully never another one. I've definitely felt that met. A lot of people that do that too, but could I have dared tell you. At in your first major, depression, your home, your can't work. Cause I know there's gonna be a day that you're going to be glad for this and all these great things that come from it. No way, absolutely not never would have thought of never, never would have thought it and that's part of the reason, you know I'm a huge believer in support groups. Like I said, I still go and part of it is you get to meet others who are there, right? In a really deep dark place and you get to support them, they get to see.

30:44 See where people have come to those who are feeling better, and you get to support one another and it's like instant trust, right? I walked in my first night. I went to the support group was the night before I checked myself into the partial hospitalization program. I walked through the door. I cried for two hours in front of like eight strange. Men sharing my story didn't want the two hours to end because it was like the first safe space I had ever felt and and I remember just like bawling Then at the end be like, is This Confidential because again, the same still creeped in, right? Like nobody's going to say where I work, do, you know? So yeah, but support groups I think are really can be really beneficial and usually there's no cost, right? A lot of people who are looking for help, don't have the funds to get a therapist in your first kind of public outing of yourself.

31:41 Was it? The podcast was the public? Speaking engagement. What was the first big public step for you? Yeah, that's a great question. So in, once I was healthy, probably I bet a good two years out or so. I decided to share my story and I I even thought about sharing it with the staff I worked with. But then I was like, you know, this is going to become all about me and really it's about the work. So I decided to create a blog. I had never blog before decided to create a blog and I wrote my story, that was the first entry of my blog and then I started like Googling my blog and I couldn't even find it like knowing where it was.

32:23 So I was like, okay, well that's not working. So then I created a Twitter account to my blog and started writing more posting more and on Twitter, really all of my Twitter feed was essentially trying to drive traffic to my blog and then I started getting recognized by some people in the mental health world and I got invited to a conference. And from the conference, I came away from a conference. It's an amazing conference. That is for online Advocates of chronic illnesses. So it's chronic illnesses of all types, it's put on by Jansen. So I was a little nervous because that is a pharmaceutical to division of Johnson & Johnson. They pay for Advocates to get together to come out to a conference.

33:12 But The Advocates run the show. They create, they invite the speakers and they have big speakers. Twitter's there, YouTube's usually, they're a lot of The Advocates, present, and somebody from their reached out to me and said, hey, we We're trying to ramp up our mental health Advocates. We have a lot for HIV psoriasis, different stomach, illnesses cancers, and we're trying to ramp up until illness and you aren't a shoo-in but we'd love it if you applied and I applied and got in and from that conference and meeting all these different Advocates was amazing. And it's really kind of interesting because there was not a single session on a podcast there.

33:53 But for whatever reason, I walked get out of there with this idea to podcast and through a contact, I made their a YouTuber. She had connected me with a big podcast or Paul Gilmartin of mental illness, happy hour and I reached out to him, and he was so helpful. He just fired me back. A huge, huge letter of tips and advice for a podcast. And then I started. I was so the that's how the podcast came around and then I was really nervous to launch it, right? Like Started the way I started, it's kind of funny. I was like, okay, I'm gonna do this, I bought two mics to headphones, and I went to my support group and where I go, they had about 10 different support groups.

34:37 So I asked if the leaders would share what I was doing. So I invited guys one at a time down in my basement recorded the podcast, and it was so funny. My daughters would be on the couch and someone would knock on the door and they'd be like another strange man coming over dad nothing like, yeah. And then Then eventually I realized I was going to tap out of resources. So I went to Skype so that I could interview men from around the world. But what I did at first was I had about six or eight episodes created, before I ever launched it. And, you know, this little piece of me was like if I never launched it, nobody can critique me, I can't fail at it.

35:18 Maybe I'll just keep it here. It's been fun, but then all the sudden on September 10th, I think it is was world. Suicide, Prevention and awareness day. And I had one episode that had been that I had edited. I was like, oh my God, if there is ever a day to launch, the depression files today is the day. So I just launched it then. And now it's been about two and a half years that it's been going. I publish every other Sunday. And I have really, really tried hard to get a very diverse group of men, and it's been pretty incredible. I have like, from an NFL player to an ER surgeon to War veterans to a transgender male, all different types of people, some are Advocates themselves, some aren't I've targeted black men at times, you know, so that I can get people of color on the show and talk about their experience, and then the different mental illnesses.

36:21 It's pretty unbelievable. Actually, I mean, from every mental illness, you can Name. I probably have had on the show from didd dissociative identity disorder, which is the old multiple personality disorder, bipolar one, bipolar to schizophrenia schizoaffective disorder. Borderline personality disorder, associative disorder, I just like everything and like I said, selfishly it's been amazing to talk to these people and to learn about everything and, and to hear different, you know, different perspectives is another thing I like to Bring to the table. So I may disagree with somebody but I'm going to let them share their perspective. If I really disagree with it, then I get put in a bind where I, I'll push back sometimes.

37:04 And say, you know, I did Might disagree a bit with that, but but it's been an amazing, amazing gig for me personally and talking to so many men have you come across any commonalities and all those different stories? So, That's a great question. I think the most common thing I hear one is that a lot of men in hindsight can pick out some clear symptoms. They had as a kid that were hints of Mental Illness but they didn't realize it at the time and maybe their parents weren't to tune to it or maybe they're old enough. Now that back then nobody talked about it and just thought maybe you were quirky or different.

37:53 I think that's probably the biggest one and then quite a few men with bipolar disorder. I have found originally land with a diagnosis of depression and then get put on an antidepressant which kicks off a really, really powerful Mania because of the antidepressant and then they realize and get diagnosed with bipolar disorder because possibly, they had some smaller manias and not really realized it. So that's been a fairly common one as well. But the other thing I do and that I love doing to is speaking publicly, I was like you mentioned I spoke a lot for Nami speaking for Nam, he's been a little challenging because it's often during the workday and I have a typical our hourly job, you know, typical hours. But I have spoken a fair amount on my own now and I love to do that.

38:45 And I'm really the new thing lately that I'm trying to speak more about. If there's any listeners who want to hear more about it is Everybody knows about the mental struggles. The mental health struggles of the kids in education and we're not servicing them as much as we need to. There aren't enough beds, there aren't enough doctors. They need way more help than we can give. But at least people are talking about them and trying to make changes. Nobody is talking about Educators and I believe, even before coronavirus came particularly in an urban School setting, like where I work. Teachers are dealing with kids who are going in and out of complex trauma on a daily basis.

39:29 Kids are having behaviors because of the trauma, they're experiencing, we are on the receiving end of that trauma often, often and teachers are stuck in their classroom all day long and they don't get a break from it. So, and it's well-known secondary trauma, or compassion, trauma, right? And nobody's talking about it. And I don't Know why? But I think we're going to see a lot more need for support for educators because they are burning out. The job is stressful enough. You deal with angry yelling parents, you got administrator sometimes breathing down, your necks doing formal observations.

40:10 And then I don't know. Let's say Elementary School teacher has to rip a scissors out of a kid's hand because they're going for their own neck. And then, you know, they call for support, we get the kid away. And then we're like, okay. Okay. Continue your math lesson. Thank you you know and and we have an EAP employee assistance program so we do get for free counseling sessions confidential but that's a drop in the bucket right? And I think we can create a better system of supports for our Educators and that's something that I would love to develop and share with districts because I think there's a huge need and I don't know how many more suicides and mental health leaves of absences we have to wait.

40:54 Before somebody says yes, let's look at the Educators. Let's figure this out and support them more because there's a dire need. Just in our small building and and School District. I've got plenty of examples and I know we're not an anomaly in the Twin City metro area in the past two years, we've lost two principles to Suicide. The the suicide suicide rate for men in the Twin City metro area in the past two years has gone up 18%. So and the numbers Nationwide, ER continue to go in the wrong direction. Yeah. Numbers of suicides and suicide attempts. It's mind-boggling, actually, the data was part of the reason I decided to Advocate it was shocking to me to see the data.

41:41 So tell me more about the, the program for educators. What what does that look like? What would that look like? So I would love to be in a position where I'm able to do more research around it. I think there are more companies that are able to You more for their employees than what educators are doing. So I think there are many places who are doing a great job that I would love to try to emulate. Some of my thoughts are like across our school district. I think it's big enough that we should have support groups. We should have support groups for our social workers. We should have a support group for our counselors, the support group for maybe rk3 teachers are for 48. Teachers are high school teachers so they can share the stories, the stories that they're all dealing with.

42:24 They can see They're not the only one who had a desk thrown at on more a book whipped at them, right? And they can talk about how stressful it is and be able to get that off their chest. Like you mentioned earlier, what a relief it is to be able to share some of that, right? So that's one way. I think we can do we've brought mindfulness into our school for the kids. I think we can offer some mindfulness and meditation ahead of time. Before the school day some optional courses for teachers. We have brought in Therapists into our own school for the kids one grading day. I had our art therapist open up her room for any teachers who wanted to go in and we did a group session of art therapy around the topic of self-care and we only had about eight Educators there, but the conversation was amazing.

43:15 Like, they were sharing things that I was just like, whoa. I can't believe like one session meeting and they weren't all from the same grade or anything. They weren't super tight. But the things that came up and came out, like, we need to be doing those things on a regular basis and those are just a couple sample examples and those are great. Like those are those are such low budget, things like that. So budgets, not a barrier to the think you've talked about there, right? Right. I created a, I got a grant from Health Partners and I created a self-care room in our building. So there's a space, where teachers on their prep can go and there's like a shiatsu massage chair in there. There are iPods, I got with headphones so they can listen to Patient.

43:55 I did meditations or just music and different things, comfortable chair, where they can recline, massager that. You can change the head on so you can give yourself a back massage or rub your legs. But, yeah. So, I mean, I think there's a lot we could do and I think it's really, really needed after I shared my story with the administrators, you know, I had people reaching out to me and Tears like privately saying like you just shared my story and we have people struggling but after I had shared I also asked the district a let me do more. Now let me do more and really I felt like the door was kind of closed on it and I don't know if it's like a liability thing that they're worried about or oh my goodness. He said the s word suicide.

44:44 What do we do now? But they knew what I was going to talk about. So I was really excited and proud of the district to let me share my story. Akley in front of 140, Public School, administrators from our district. I just, I want to do more and I think we need more for the administrators and the staff all of the staff. So you much Beyond people coming and saying you just told my story when they see you speak. Is there a question? You're asked, most often is something that people want to know more about the the most often or as far as Educators go, anybody any audience study like what do you get asked the most? You know, I think people are just a lot of people are looking for a quick fix.

45:30 You know, how what do I need to do? How do I get better? And really there's no quick fix. Unfortunately and I feel like our medicines are so far behind compared to every other ailment and illness and medical. You know all these new new developments they come out with. But still, our antidepressants are take one and wait, six weeks. Weeks to see if they did. There's an effect. And if there's not, we'll try another one. And then you wait, another six weeks and of all the illnesses to have a mental health, a brain disorder where you may be considering aside, that's not the one we want it meds to wait. So I've been excited now that they came out with s ketamine, you know, some different types which is a whole new class of Phi classification of drugs.

46:18 So I'm hoping to see more more kind of evolved from those pieces. But I do think people have to create a tool belt of go twos and I always say it takes time and effort, but it definitely takes effort to get better. Like I do it's wrong. If you think you can even just pop a pill and just wait for it to get better. Yeah, you need to do things like exercise, like Journal, like, get outside. You know, there's a lot that you can do to work towards getting healthy, find a support. Group. Go to a therapist and I understand some people frown upon meds and, you know, I kind of feel like to each his own. I but my big thing about meds is don't judge people. Some people, you know, it's a difficult decision for anybody to take a medicine or not.

47:10 That's going to have some kind of impact on their brain, but don't don't go pill. Shaming people don't go bad mouth and Pete. You people are making difficult choices. Yeah, and, you know, their works that is a stick. Eggman that I definitely hear from people who I think are really not like really a tune to mental illness to social justice and anti-racism. But some of some people who will still say like, yeah someone so didn't take their pills today, you know, as if you know, they're acting crazy, you know? So those types of and I do think that there can be implications too.

47:52 Language use like that because that you know, if you say that in front of somebody who is taking medicine, what does that say to them? Yeah. Yeah I get that. Yeah. They're if there is the it's a different stigma and even people that can be doing it best to support people with mental illness and yeah they can be a whole oh you're doing that oh that's the wrong thing to do and that you know so but I was like medication gave me nothing but side effects. But at times it was like, well, at least I'm willing to take. If I had something, I'm gonna take give me something. I'm will like, I'm willing I'm trying to do something. So that was always me and my family, saw it as a positive sign if even if didn't help, I was like willing to do something and that was a good sign for sure.

48:38 And I've heard a lot of men say side effects, right? So and then it's a matter of maybe trying a different medication, right? And it's weighing the benefit in the risk, right? Like is your side effect Better than possibly being suicidal, right? Is it a side effect that you can live with? That's okay, is it just dry mouth, right? Or or is it a sexual deal and you're trying to get pregnant like, you know that. So there are different things to weigh out around side effects. I've been really happy on the medicine. I have taken with, which I would say, has zero side effects. That I've noticed I do know that at first, the doctor told me. For two days you're going to experience. I still remember exactly what he said and I remember those days dry mouth, dizziness and your anxiety is going to Skyrocket and for two days I like it's really weird. My anxiety was so so high but now I'm like tuned into it. So now that if I have just a little bit of anxiety that I never thought of, I even had any, but now, I can spot it. Easily like, oh, there.

49:53 There it is. I can feel it in my stomach, or whatever it might be. Because I think I was at such a high level that I now am able to recognize it more and, you know, another strategy that I use a lot. If I feel anxiety coming on, I'll do the deep breathing, you know, three, deep breaths and the breathing is awesome. I mean, it can really, you can change your blood pressure, your heart rate so many things with your breath and it's something that you have with you 24 hours. Hours a day, no matter where you are or what you're doing, you can take deep breaths. So that that's our love, those simplest things because it could, you can be homeless, you can have no resources and you can master that skill. Yeah, right.

50:33 And so, yeah, it doesn't, it's not a, there's not a means test to doing some of the things get that can make everybody feel better, right? And it's also important to to do those things and put things into practice when you're not at your lowest, because that's when it's the hardest to do anything. So, to add something new, when And when you're just, you feel like it's a huge deal, to put one foot on the floor and get out of bed. And that's not, that's going to be the hardest time to start an exercise program or to start meditating or even get to give a crap and go search YouTube for how do I do deep breathing? So, solutely do those things. Get into get into a gratitude habit, journaling exercise, do a support group while you're feeling at least good, if you have a history, like, do it when you're feeling good.

51:19 So that the Downs are As down there, not as Steep and not as rapid and I would say the same for going to a therapist, right? It's okay to go when you're healthy and you can talk about how rough it was and you can create strategies with them and things that will help get you out of it. All of that is really talking about building your resiliency, right? Your resiliency, your toolbox, so that you are prepared, right? I'm really confident that I have a lot of things in my tool belt, that if I start feeling depression coming on and I would hammer all of them. Be on my elliptical, you know, while talking to someone from my support group and you know, I would be and eating some celery all at the same time. So with all that said, it is there a book, a program, a habit that that you, you know, want to share the most. That that is kind of the go-to suggestion to people, you know, the breathing one that I mentioned, I think is really good.

52:16 I think I love journaling. I journaled every single night Through my depression more than I had ever journaled. And every night I ended my entry with today in order to work towards recovery. I and I put bullet points and that might have been literally. I got out of bed, but I wanted to acknowledge that I was working at it, because I didn't feel like I was. So I made myself Journal about a journaling is great. I think picking up a hobby if you used to play the guitar, but you haven't recently, you know, to have a hobby really helps to focus on Something other than ruminating, like, you talked about. So a hobby is great. And also, you know, exercise and it doesn't have to be big if you're starting to feel it.

53:03 Try to go out for a walk. I'm not saying a walk is going to cure you from a depression by any means, but it certainly is helpful to get fresh air. You get some exercise and I think it's important to try to keep up with your social contacts to, you know, don't like question yourself. If you start making excuses and you aren't seeing your friends at all anymore. Question yourself like, why why am I not doing that? Because that could be very much an indicator that you're starting to isolate which is not good and depending on tend to do that to go deeper in that we're at a time when a lot of people being forced into social isolation. So again, we're right now we're talking on Zoom but everyone, you know, if you have if you have a phone, you probably has five apps that let you connect with. People besides just actually calling them like the freaking 90s or something.

53:55 Actually make a phone call. Yeah, but yeah. I've been telling people these days with coronavirus makes sure that you are also not just texting but call and if you can zoom or Skype, you know, so that people can or FaceTime so people can see you, particularly I think a lot of the elderly are even much more isolated. Now, my mom is in an assisted living place and they aren't allowed out of the building, so she can't go out and they don't even want him out of the room. She said don't anybody tell on her but she said she's walking the Halls at night just yet exercise when nobody's around. So you know yeah reach out and but it is definitely a symptom of depression is isolating and it is not healthy right to just hunker down on the couch and make excuses to not do anything else or just say you got to lack of energy.

54:44 You it takes effort. Yeah, even put in going phone and just prompt yourself call someone Zoom. Someone connect with someone even have Show up every 30 minutes and until you finally. All right. I'm sick of me bugging myself and I'm going to take some action right? There's all sorts of techniques and tools but yeah I texting is the worst means of communication that humans have the more senses you engage that makes it more engaging so yeah. Don't it sender and recipient this. You can just read too much. You like your mood. I think I speak for myself, my mood goes into a text so I can read any message come to me. I can read it as. Oh you hateful about you know, You're putting me down to what's up? Oh how dare you ask, what's up? You know what?

55:24 You know. And and so it's horrible, like our mood will interpret a text message somebody for ways. But if I'm actually seeing you, we can look in each other's eyes and communicate that it brings back the humanity. Yeah. And you and we all have mirror neurons we're meant to see each other and feel each other and and be empathic and supportive and now more than ever. Everybody needs that if you're absolutely if your mental illness is Being to blissfully happy all the time, you know, whatever it is like, share that with somebody, you know. Absolutely. So you've got you've got a lot of accomplishments. You're doing a lot of good for yourself for your family, for your community, for your profession. What are you looking forward to?

56:10 Is there a big vision for the depression files or for what Al is up to next door? You know, there's not really a vision at times, I wish Wish I could just do the mental health advocacy, the public speaking podcast, the blog and focus, all of my work on that, so that may be a goal down the line. But I still enjoy working. In the schools, I still love will being around kids and you know it's tough to because I have a stable job with a decent salary and I get health care and wouldn't have that if I was off on my own. So I'm really enjoying how it is it right now.

56:51 It's a Mix. I get the work, the school. The kids get to utilize my brain. A lot in that job and work with people and I get to come home and work on the depression files and meet men. And, you know, even editing the podcast and stuff, I feel like there's a lot of creativity that goes into it. So I really, really enjoy where I'm at right now with kind of both those two pieces in my family of course. Awesome, awesome. Well, what's the best way that people Can can can find you get in touch with you? Find the podcast. Yeah, thanks for asking. The my website is the depression files.com, the depression files.com, and there you can find my story.

57:35 You can find my blog, my podcast, and then also, you can find out how to reach out to me if anybody does want some coaching or public speaking. I'm looking forward to doing more of that as well. But yeah, they're all on that website. Cool. And you activate, you especially active on in different social media platform than others are? Yes. Thank you again, for asking, you know, one piece of advice, I had early on was to really focus on one social media platform. So I'm really quite big on Twitter. Twitter is definitely where I'm tweeting a lot and so that is where you'll find me. I used to also have my tweets going to my Facebook account, but the Facebook doesn't allow that anymore or Twitter doesn't allow one of I'm don't allow it anymore that that broke somewhere along that.

58:24 I'm fairly recently. Yeah. So so I am on Facebook but not nearly as much as Twitter and on Twitter, I'm just at Al live in 1811, 18 coins. And I love all the links and social media contacts for a lat, the show notes for this episode at real men field that org. So if you missed anything, we talked about go there and you'll just be a click away to track down L and And dig into the depression files further than this. Al, I want to, I want to thank you, not for just being here, but for everything you're doing and being well, first of all for asking for help. Yeah.

59:04 Like and receiving that, and then sharing the fact that you got helped and that you're still here and you're helping other people stay here too, right? Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for having me on the show you to Andy are doing incredible work. Yeah. Unfortunately, we're both needed. Yeah, you know, I was a book. I wrote it, hit number one, in the Amazon category for suicide and I was like, Yay, gross. I mean, why is this a category? So it's so I kind of wish we were II. Look forward to the day that we are Obsolete and it has in the message that we need to share, but that's not today. So, right cool. So, thanks again, L.

59:44 Thanks everyone for listening. Wherever you're discovering real men, feel, please give a like a review. You subscription share it with someone else and through this all through, whatever personal Journey, you're going through through the global Journey that we're all going through. Support yourself, support your friends or your family. You are not in this alone, and as always be good to yourself. Thank you for listening to real men. Feel contact us at real men. Feel at gmail.com. Learn more about Andy Grant at V and E Grant.com, please subscribe to this podcast and leave a review on Apple podcast. Google play Spotify tune in or wherever you are discovering real. Men feel, Thank you for listening to real men. Feel contact us at real men. Feel at gmail.com. Learn more about Andy Grant at V and E Grant.com, please subscribe to this podcast and leave a review on Apple podcast. Google play Spotify tune in or wherever you are discovering real.

1:00:27 Men feel,