The Evolution of Masculinity and the Modern Relationship

0:00 Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel. I'm your host, author, coach, and healer, Andy Grant. Please visit theandygrant.com to learn more about Juan. Real Men Feel reminds men that they are human beings and they have the right to experience and express all of their emotions. We have conversations that most men are not having, but that all men can benefit from. My guest today is Crystal DeSantis. Crystal is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist based in Austin, TX, known for her expertise and relationships, trauma work and sex therapy. Her development of the STRONG model of relational therapy, which blends trauma informed and attachment based methods, has earned her a reputation as a leading authority in her domain.

0:41 Her recent book, Strong, a Relationship field guide for the Modern Man, offers practical advice for navigating contemporary relationships. Crystal shares her experiences from wanting nothing to do with marriage to becoming a marriage therapist and the development of her six pillars for strong relationships. We talk about the evolution of relationships, the intersection of pain and helplessness, challenges that men face, and a subject that is horribly under discussed, the sexual abuse of men. Let's do it. Hello and welcome Crystal to Real Men Field. Thank you so much for having me, Andy. What got you interested in marriage and family therapy to begin with?

1:23 Gosh, that actually is really intertwined with my personal story. So I grew up with parents who were really lovely parents to me, but not very good partners to each other. And so I grew up watching this very conflict filled relationship between them. And so when I left home and I went out in the world, I the one thing I knew was, yeah, that looks terrible. Like marriage and family like that seems so stressful. Like I feel like as a kid I got out of, you know, obviously I've got my stuff, but but I was like, yeah, no, I'm not doing that. Like that looks ridiculous.

2:07 And then I went to college and I actually went to an all women's college and same thing. I was sitting there, you know, listening to my girlfriends and my roommates. They're like, you know, heartbreak after heartbreak after like questioning like, is he going to call me? And like, what does this text mean? And I was like, again, sounds like a lot of work. I'm not interested. So I just really, you know, decided like, dating and relationships wasn't for me. And then I was in my mid 20s and my younger sister got married. And one thing about me is half my family is Asian and the other half is Italian. So both, both cultures have these kind of traditions of like, you know, you get the older 1 married first, then you move on down the line.

2:53 And so like the pattern had been disrupted a little bit. So it kind of, was it family pressure or just kind of that awareness of like, oh, you know, my younger sister's gotten married and like I've, I've missed a step, I guess. So I decided I was like, well, I guess I should date. And so I literally like went on a date and I was like, you want to be my boyfriend? I was like, yeah, cool. All right. But it was terrible. It was just AI think, 'cause I didn't have any relationship skills. He was lovely. But yeah, we just, you know, so that ended and I was like, oh, wow, I don't know anything about anything when it comes to love. So once again, like back to being, you know, single and focusing on my career, which at that time was PR and communications in the real estate field.

3:41 And and then a friend of mine was like, no, you have to try this new online dating thing. And anyway, Long story short, and I met my husband, realized once again, I don't have any relationship skills, but I do like this man and I want to keep him in my life. So I went to therapy and from learning stuff myself and then realizing like oh I can learn how to do this and then I can get the degree and I can help others is what led me here. So was your husband your first relationship? Yes, my first long term relationship, the first, you know, guy I tried to date, it was like I was maybe maybe three months that we lasted because it was, you know. So the first relationship you enjoyed at least. Yeah, the first relationship that is like of any substance was yeah, my husband and from day one like. From talking to you previously, I know you have a focus that's pretty unique with you focus on 1st responder couples, Yes. How did that come to be?

4:42 So my husband is a first first responder and he's also a veteran. And so when I was when we got, I was living around a lot of veterans and growing up, I grew up in Japan. And so a lot of Americans that I and I were military couples. So I just felt like a real affinity for that population. And I noticed when I became a therapist that not a lot of people specialized in that population. And I just was like, well, I love, I love this population. So let me focus on it. And as I did, I realized a lot of the men were the ones also not just the couples, but the men were also the ones that were not really being spoken to or addressed when it came to the field of marriage, family and relationships.

5:33 So that then developed kind of down into a little further niche of, OK, so there's veterans, first responder couples, but a lot of the resources even to that population focuses on the spouses, the women, you know how to all of that. And so I was like, well, again, let me focus on the the marginalized population and that led me to men's work. And do you find that first responders and vets have different issues than the non first responder or vet male? They have unique issues for sure. They're generally in higher stress environments. The couples often have unique stressors that other, you know, the civilian population doesn't deal with.

6:20 Even just for example, as a first responder, you know, like your husband's gone 24 or 48, you know, at a time. So just unique, unique aspects and unique stressors that come with that. Also, exposure to a lot of trauma, which was also a specialty of mine, and trauma really impacts the way that you show up in a relationship, right, Being on the receiving end of trauma. So that was also something that I see very much unique in this population. You know, one thing I have asked lots of guests, because you know, some people, someone that has a story and then goes into service, they usually have some sort of trauma in their life. And, and I, I'm sure in your clients lives there's trauma. So I I ask people, is it possible to become an adult in the modern world and not experience trauma at some point? You know, So what I say as as like, so part of the work that I've done also is being a supervisor for younger therapists is I won't say that necessarily everybody has experienced trauma cause trauma's so personal, but as a therapist doing relational work without understanding trauma and attachment doesn't make sense.

7:41 So it's like, yeah, trauma, it's whether it's attachment trauma or, you know, a single incident, trauma from, you know, a violent event or something. I don't disagree that, you know, especially as a therapist or somebody who wants to help, you got to have an understanding of attachment trauma and how that impacts person in the world. As we're, we're approaching election season, or I guess we're in election season, I should say, but I'd a past guest years ago said that everybody on the planet has suffered trauma because everybody was surprised when Donald Trump won the presidency the first time. So we'll see. Yeah, you know, again, trauma's so personal. Yeah, yeah, that's the way.

8:27 Yeah. I can't, like I've I've yet to meet someone that claims to have had a trauma free upbringing at all. But yeah, it's just what? What degree? Yeah, yeah, And it so well, I I was going to say, you know, part of that is I actually have it. It's, it's so interesting because when you say that, the first thing that comes up for me is I've actually worked with many veterans and 1st responders who absolutely deny the J of trauma, you know, And so that's also again where it's like, it's such a, it's become such a laden word, you know? And so when I say in my book, and I kind of break it down with like the, the, it's the intersection of pain and helplessness, right? And so whether that's physical pain or emotional pain or relational pain, and then that feeling of helplessness, right? And so whether it is like you're in a war zone and you watch your, you know, the convoy in front of you get blown up and there's nothing you can do.

9:21 Or, you know, on a personal level, being a kid and your parents telling you like, Hey, we're getting a divorce and you know, you never see your one parent again or, or whatever that that situation of, of or abuse, right? Peeing and helplessness, That intersection right there is often where I'm like, if you've ever experienced that on some level, we could call that a traumatic event. Right. And everyone's a child at some point. And every child is helpless in a lot of aspects of their life. So yeah, yeah, that's why it's so prevalent. So I know you want to create the the strong model of relational therapy. Tell tell me what that means. Yeah, so when I was starting my practice again, I knew I wanted to focus on veterans first responders. And I just like kind of what I said was like hypermasculine man and the people who love them because that was kind of the again, the field or the population that I felt was kind of neglected by the field a little bit. And and so I wanted my practice to reflect two things like tactical skills and a strength forward approach. And so, you know, the tactical skills, one of the big obstacles often to veterans, first responders or any kind of, you know, guy to enter therapy is like, well, I'm just going to go sit on the couch and and she's going to make me cry. And like, how is that helpful?

10:47 You know? And so I wanted to have an acronym that was like, when I say healthy relationships, what does that mean? And then I wanted a word that represents, again, that kind of strength forward approach. And you know the universe, the stars aligned, and here we are strong. Strong is healthy and strong are the six pillars of a healthy relationship. All right, so let's get into the pillar. What are what are those six pillars? Yeah. So again, these are just kind of like from research, from clinical experience, the six things that a healthy relationship has. So number one is safety. So a healthy relationship is a safe relationship. That means, you know, the people that are in it are self aware. They Co create stability and safety together, right? They have an invested interest in making sure that both people feel safe in the relationship, right? Whether it's physical safety, emotional safety, all of it. They have skills of self regulation so that even if they get upset, they know how to regulate their bodies so that they don't take it out on their partner, whether verbally or physically.

11:58 And they have the skills of self-expression. So I call these the four s s of safety that again, sometimes in a couple at any point, you know, there's going to be hard conversations that need to be had and they're harder when you don't have the words for them, right? Because then it does sometimes become like an acting out, right? So self-expression, these are the four things that help a relationship feel safe. OK, so that's the S, The T is trust, right? The fundamental, like piece of what makes a relationship a relationship is that these people trust each other, right? And so that's also, I talk about the power of attachment, right?

12:38 If you grew up in a hall where you couldn't trust your parents, you couldn't rely on them, or you never had a relationship in which you could trust the other person. Let's say you have a history of being cheated on or being, you know, abused in a relationship. Finding a place at a formula that you can use to build trust with your partner is so important, right? In a healthy relationship. Then the R is respect. Again, Like one thing I heard from talking with a lot of men is like they want to feel respected in their relationships, right? But one thing I saw is, you know, when you're trying to demand respect from your partner, but you don't have self respect because you're acting in ways that you're not proud of or you don't understand how to respect their boundaries as a pardar, there's going to be issues, there's going to be conflict, there's going to be pain.

13:32 So having safety, trust and respect are kind of those first three steps to a healthy relationship. Then once we kind of get those three really solid, because what I often say is if you don't have those safety trust or respect those elements, you really don't have a foundation for a healthy relationship. So that your relationship is going to be in constant crisis mode, right? So STR helps your relationship survive. And once we get there, then we can go to the Ong parts of what makes a relationship thrive. And so that's openness, right? Building in an open line of communication, open, transparent, honest environment in your relationship where we can also build in that growth mindset that, you know, the person that you are when you're 20 or 30 and you meet your partner is not going to be the same person that you are when you're 50 or 60. And that's a good thing, right?

14:35 Your partner's also going to be changing throughout their life as well, hopefully, right? And so that was something else. It's like not being threatened by what happens when you are open in a relationship, right? So openness, make sure you grow together rather than a part nurturing is the end. So again, like I was thinking about what makes, what makes a relationship not just survive, but really thrive. And what I saw in reading a lot of research and even just like in the experiential is when people feel like the other partner is their cheerleader, right? And they nurture, like I know my partner wants me to be the best, best version of me. And if I'm going through a slump that they really care about, how can we get you back to the best version of you? Like, what do you need to do to go spark your interest to go, you know, find yourself and be like, be at the good place again, you know, just nurturing each other's hopes and dreams so that you don't feel like.

15:35 Because one thing I saw a lot of an old, like old models of relationship is that you have to give up so much of yourself to be in a relationship, right. Like the old ball and chain. Yeah, I wish I could do that, but married now, you know, or. Yeah, you know, and that idea that you have to like, like cut parts of yourself off to fit into this like, relationship box. And I really hated that. Like, I don't like that, you know, I mean, on a psychological level as well. I think it, I mean, there's lots of stuff coming out about this now, but that kind of in some ways, again, causation, correlation, whatever. But like then the midlife experience of like, I can't live like this anymore, right? And like, there are so many stories of people that are like, I've never saw this coding life.

16:21 So he was so straight laced and followed all the rules and like lived life by a little script until one day he just like got out, tore those clothes off, bought a motorcycle and, you know, now lives on a beach and he sings happy. He's like, well, you know, we got to find a balance between like expecting that people cut off parts of themselves to fit into a rigid relationship role, and then he'll screw it up. Just going to go, you know, live my wild self. It's like, how can we nurture that wild self in a relationship, right? Finding that balance and that nurturing together. And then, of course, also, if you're going to have children, how can you nurture a family legacy and, you know, all of the things that matter when it comes to being a parent and, and fostering and a nurturing environment for children to grow up in was also another thing that I found really important for the longevity of a couple.

17:16 And then the G is that kind of final aspect of the, the generous, the this generosity. And so that generous mindset of, you know, not just thinking about me and what I want, but if I'm thinking about my partner and our couple, like, how do I switch into being generous and, and considering their needs? And so that's really that kind of final, like when you have all of these solid things, the little cherry on top is that generous mindset where you're like, you know, let me do something nice for that just because I guess I have to be in plain, you know, anniversary, like here's your flowers or here's your, you know, here's your pound of flesh.

17:59 But here's it's like the generous mindset of like, I want them to be happy and that makes me happy, right? Yeah. Cool, that's a really good acronym and it it it every pillar feels solid and honest and and valid cause some feel forced. So I went did it did it take a long time to get there? Like was there a lot of other words trying to make work? Or, you know, it's so funny and I think this is, I'm just like, you know, I, I'm it just from the beginning. It's what it was. Yeah. I wanted, I wanted something that represented strength. And it worked out and it worked. So what way did you decide to write the book for men? So what really sparked it is that, you know, when I would work with these couples, first of all, like one thing I'd learned about men, which obviously, you know, tell me if you agree or not, but you know, I always noticed that they wanted some idea of structure.

18:59 They wanted insight. They wanted to be able to feel empowered in the process, right. And so, you know, often after the first session, I always wanted to like offer resources and like, you know, if you want to look up the science or if you have any questions, or here's a book I can recommend or here's a podcast I can recommend. And when I started to notice is that I was recommending a lot more resources to the female client simply because there are so many more resources for women. And so when it came to the guys, I was like, Oh, I want to give you something. But I, I, there's, you know, just, it wasn't as I didn't have as much to give them. And so that was part of writing this book for men. It was, you know, these are strong relationship principles that anybody can use.

19:45 But I wanted to also speak to the specific struggles of what I saw men experiencing when it came to relationships. So what are some of those common struggles that you see men running into? Yeah. So the big thing that I saw was, you know, relationships. The, the premise of relationships have changed in a very, very short period of time. And what I mean by that is, you know, for a long time, I mean generations, being in a relationship was kind of fundamental to survival, right? Especially for for women, right, is you couldn't, you couldn't buy a house, you couldn't support yourself. You couldn't just be a single woman in the world.

20:27 It just wasn't a thing, right? And so a lot of the way that women would that men as their partners was, you know, can he protect me? Can he provide for me? Can he give me babies? Right. Protect, provide, procreate. These were the kind of tenants of masculinity, right? If you had these three things, you were a good catch in the dating market. Parents would try and set you up with their daughters would be like, yeah, I guess, you know, here we are, right? Not at all saying that love relationships weren't a same, but it wasn't the foundation of marriage, right? I mean, yeah, there's just so much research on this. And, you know, and So what has changed very quickly is that, I mean, within the past few decades, marriage has started to be an option, not an obligation, right?

21:18 Like a woman could not get married these days, right? And not be a man, same thing like a single man. I mean, there were always bachelor men back in the day, but you know, it could it's now an active choice, not necessarily a requirement to be a part of society to be a married person. And same thing if you're a married person, you can also now choose to be an unmarried person, right? And so that like, how do you maintain a relationship when that is the new landscape? That was something that I saw was very confusing to a lot of men. Like what do we do when we're not needed? How like we're we're also getting the message that we're not wanted.

21:58 So what do we do right? So what do they do? Yeah. Well. Because I imagine they're supposed to come up a lot for the first responders too, because that's emphasizing that protector mode, that being. Valuable. Totally. So when when that comes to an end, yeah, due to choice or not choice, I imagine it's more traumatic. Yeah. If it's not by your choice, absolutely. And that was something again, like whether it's first responder or I, I heard that a lot from them where they're like, I'm doing the things that I thought women value in men. Like I put a roof over her head. I'm providing a good paycheck. I, you know, like I could beat up any guy if any guy looks at her wrong. And like, I gave her babies, what else? Like, why is she still unhappy?

22:43 And so that's really what it was, is expanding the definitions of what does it mean to be a protector? What does it mean to be a provider? What does it mean to be a procreator? Maybe it's being a parent now and they just expanding that. So it's like we're not. My message is never like, oh, we just need to change, you know, don't be masculine anymore. It's women still want masculine men, but the ways of being protective and being a provider just need to adapt and change and modernize to be attractive to the modern woman, right. And also this is also part of humanizing men. Like you know, your entire mission and it's like never, not just a fist and a wallet, you know, and A and a penis.

23:27 It's like men also then being able to inhabit their entire humanity and knowing that they are wanted in relationships, not just needed because they're useful, because they have performance value, which then if you stop performing well, then you're out, you know, and that kind of disposable view of of masculine. Yeah, 'cause I'd love to. The notion of providing also means, again, it's not just shelter or money, it's joy. Yes, it's love. It's a high vibration and procreating and raising miserable children especially more you miserable boys that become. Miserable men. That does not help the planet at all. Absolutely. Absolutely.

24:09 Yeah. And then protecting, too. That was something is, you know, being physically, you know, good for you. And, you know, everybody take care of your health, do what makes you feel good and healthy and all of that and empowered. You know, there is something really mentally powerful about being able to feel strong physically. I am feeling capable physically. And yet hinging your masculinity on that is like a really teetering, you know, like it's so it can be so fragile, right? Because our our bodies are all gonna age and, you know, struggle at some point, right? And so really getting away from this idea that, like, physical protection and like muscles is the same because also the threats to relationships have changed, right. So, you know, evolutionary back in the day, yeah, being a strong man who could fight off the wolves and, you know, fight off the, I don't know, pillagers and all of that was super useful because that was the biggest threat to your family's safety. But now what is actually the threat to your family's safety? Maybe it's maybe it's porn addiction. Maybe it's an emotional affair, maybe it's work or alcohol taking you away from being present and connected, right? And so being able to be a protector, but an appropriate connector for an appropriate protector for the threats that are actually being faced by the

25:40 relationship, right? Yeah, 'cause if you're a great physical protector, but you come home and you find your wife or children crying and that just makes you freeze, I don't know what to do with this. Like, yeah, you got to be a protector in all aspects of your humanity, as you said earlier. So besides what we already talked about, what are some other common misconceptions that you you like to debunk? Yeah, You know, I, what I also like to name is that we're right on the frontier of a completely new paradigm, right. And so I guess part of, you know, what I always like to mention for men is like, you know, not all women are by default healthy either, right? And so that's also what I wanted to focus this book on, on men is like, sure, women might have had a few more years. And I think there's a message out there which is not totally untrue that women have had a head start when it comes to like, you know, self help and therapy and all of that. But you know, y'all can catch up. And then The thing is, it's not just men versus women, which I'm hearing a lot in social media is like, you know, women and men are done with each other and blah, blah, blah. First of all, like that's not sustainable. And second of all, it's not true when it comes down to it, right? People are wired for connection.

26:59 We crave connection. We want to be seen, we want to be known. The more you can feel confident in your skills as a relationship partner also, then the better off you will be when you do enter the dating market or the better off you'll be in addressing the issues in your relationship if you do choose to go to therapy or if you do choose. So that's something that that misconception like, oh, well, men are so far behind there's no point in even trying to catch up because women are done with us. It's like, that's not true. That's a very loud minority. It's not true. You know, there are a lot of women out there that are rooting for men and saying like, we want you here, we want you present. Like we want like, and a lot of men speaking to their brothers and the other men, like we guys, we got this, we can do this. And so just listen for those voices, right? So you mentioned the new paradigm. Can you name that?

27:56 What? What are we on the frontier of, exactly? I think what we're on the frontier of is, you know, again, there was the past relationships that were very dominated by like kind of transaction and function and basic need where the roles were very clear, right? Women needed men for physical protection. Women needed men to pay the bills and go to work because women couldn't, right, societally. And then the things have shifted and kind of shaken apart and we're we're still figuring out what the future looks like, right? And I think some people are really trying to rush the ending of like, well, now then women are in charge. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, that's not necessarily it either, right?

28:36 Like the new paradigm is how do we work together as equally strong individuals, right? That strong men are out there and so are strong women. And they are not a threat to each other. If anything, when they partner up, when they find each other, they are power couples, right? And they, those power families that have strong legacies that then build, you know, create environments for healthy children. And that's where like that's where I'm hoping this new paradigm leads us. It's not well, strong men have their day now. It's the era of the strong woman. It's like, no, no, no, come on. Let's all grow up a little bit like. Yeah, even I even the most extreme male basher, like I don't hear anyone saying the world needs more weak men like that.

29:21 I've not heard that rallying cry from anybody. Like, gosh, yes, but again, like strong in a new way, right? Or or strong in all aspects. Like, Yep, yeah, again, not not a strong monopod, but at least a tripod of stability. Yeah, yeah. Now I I was looking at your your book and name is so strong, a relationship field guide for the modern man and and something in the description caught my eye from men looking for ways to distinguish themselves as high value partners in the current relationship landscape. So that still sounds very transactional. Is that you still you got to stand out and put put like your dating resume and, you know, wear it and be it.

30:05 Is that what that's saying? No, no, it is a. It is a trendy phrase, but I guess what I wanted to speak to is the idea that, you know, it can be daunting right now to look at the dating landscape because it is so confusing and hostile, right? And So what I'm hearing from a lot of men is like, what's the point? Like, why would I put myself out there just to get beat up and rejected and laughed at? It makes no sense. Why would I do that? And so part of it is, well, go in, you know, sure, yes, that's very daunting and all of that. And if you can go in with a plan, if you can go in with that sense of I've got everything I've done everything that I can do on my side to be a high value partner.

30:57 That will also help you feel confident that if you do walk into an environment where you know, somebody is just using you for a free meal or you're, you're walking into an environment where nobody is really interested, then you know it's not about you. And you can say, this is not the environment that I will find my partner in, right? And that will help distinguish you as like, I know my value because I've done the work to be the high value partner that I want to be. And that will also give you that confidence that, oh, I am also able to recognize when I welcome to situations that this is not where I'm going to find my partner. And I'm glad you in, in that you mentioned, you know, the the attitude of well, what's the point? Why am I bothering this?

31:39 And cause another part of your, the book description called out something that caught my eye was that this provides the motivated modern man with applicable tools and skills to step up their relational game. And that's that motivation part. Cause yeah, guys, you got to take action like, yeah. So I don't care how many books you read, I don't care how people you talk to, If if it doesn't translate into the physical daily activities of you, nothing in your life will change. Would you agree with? That 100%, yeah, yes, I love that. Oh, there's a, there's a quote that's like right on the tip of my. It's it's basically like, yeah, like insight is no substitute for action.

32:20 Yeah. That's like you do need insights and it's not a substitute for action. Right. Yeah, it shouldn't inspire action. Just yeah, the rule doesn't change by people going uh huh, Yeah, they're going to then do. Exactly. Because I can you said earlier that not all women are healthy and I can imagine lots of guy like this guy's listening cheering that moment but but yeah but that doesn't mean you go she's she's not healthy and you just stay the same you're. Right. And do nothing, just find another and I'll help the other, right. And but that's really again, where I think this is maybe what the new paradigm is that as more and more people get healthy, because honestly, this is what I'm seeing in the dating market right now, is the healthy people are struggling to find partners that are equally at their level, right? Because a lot of people still aren't doing the work, right? A lot of people are still stuck in blame mode. And like, whose fault is this?

33:10 Is it women's fault? Is it men's fault? Like blah, blah, blah. And so the healthy people are kind of like they're leveling up and there's not a lot of partners at their level. And so that's really where I'm hoping that the paradigm of like, when enough people realize like we're sick of this blaze game, we're sick of this, like, whose fault is it? I want to step up. I want to make sure I can be the highest value partner I can be. And then when you, when enough people get to that level, it's like Malcolm Gladwell talks about the tipping point, right? It's like when enough people level up their relational game where they're like, OK, I, I recognize it's not about like, you know, blah, blah, blah. At least, you know, negative conversations down here. That's where I think the paradigm will shift, where then healthier people will be able to find healthy partners more easily.

33:58 Right now it is a little sparse. And so that's kind of discouraging where I've heard people where they're like, well, I've done all this work and then I, I, I've like, there's nobody out there for me. I'm like, I get it. But trust more people will do the work. And you know, that'll be the paradigm shift. Yeah, I mean, I hear that a lot. I I hear from a lot of female listeners and friends that like Andy, you've got to make a dating site like where where, where the real men feel listeners, Where can I find the single real men that are willing to feel. And I, I, I don't know what to do with them, but yeah, so, so. And when I tell people when they're looking for like, well, the go to the places that you feel drawn to as a healthy, you know, personal growth inspired woman or man and just look who's there.

34:42 But it be it a bookstore or an event, but you know, while you're going to the things that you enjoy, have your eyes open. Yeah, I'm glad that women know that you're out there. I'm glad that men know that you're out there. Because really, that's going to be the same, right? Is when right now it's kind of people are segregated into their gender groups a little bit. Like the healthy women are hanging out with other healthy women and the healthy men are hanging out with other healthy men. And it's kind of like a middle school dance where they're like, who's gonna, who's gonna make the 1st man, right. And so that I think that's going to be that next phase of like the bridges of how do these healthy people find each other because, yeah, it is tough right now.

35:23 Yeah. So I want to change the subject a bit because I want to get a chance to to get this. But when we first spoke, I asked you, is there something you don't get to talk about that much? And you wish you could. And you said that was men as survivors of abusive relationships, especially sexual abuse. So in your experience, how how is is how does sexual abuse of men impact their relationships? Oh, huge. I mean, so this is something actually that. Yeah. So as I became a therapist, right? And I wanted to work with men and I got my trauma training. I also got sex therapy training. And So what I started to attract were people that, you know, were having sexual issues in their relationships and often underneath whatever the surface level, you know, sexual dysfunction was, there was a deep story of pain around a sexual experience that was either abusive, non consensual. And a lot of men were the ones telling me those stories. Again, like I have a lot of colleagues who work with sex therapy and they hear a lot of stories from female survivors. And I just was ending up sharing a lot of stories from men. And the research and the the stories from that community just were not as prevalent.

36:51 And yet it is the same. You know, when you are on the receiving end of abuse, especially physical or sexual abuse, it really does tangle the the way that your brain develops around receiving love and safety and how that gets tangled with the experience of pain and lack of safety. And that is something that I would see a lot then. And the way it impacted people in relationships is I want to be physically close to somebody or I want to be emotionally close with somebody. But I have this terrible long history of what that could feel like and the pain that that can cause and the lack of autonomy and the, I think loss of power over my own body or my own experience in that that was often a really just a really scary place to go.

37:58 Just boiling it down to what does trauma do and what does abuse do? Is it it changes us from kids from being open and seeing the world as like a safe and loving place and our parents as loving and safe people. It changes us. It changes our brain to then see other people as threats. The world is a dangerous place and it puts us in protection mode. And So what I often saw with men this, I mean, speaking to about men right now, so men with a history of of sexual abuse in childhood was two things. One is being really disembodied from their own sexuality, right? If they were like objectified sexually in that way, it can be really kind of a disembodying experience as a child. It's a way a child can kind of keep themselves safe through that experience or brains, right? And so still feeling kind of disembodied from their sexuality.

38:55 And then the other one is emotionally feeling this push, pull between desiring connection and desiring to be vulnerable. And then that warning where that pull back of no, it's not safe, push them away, push them away. And so that again, was also really confusing, not just for their partners or like, I'm trying to be close to you or, you know, I feel so connected to you. And then and then I feel rejected by you or then you push me away and then you close off again. And you know, I don't, I don't know what's going on. And the, and the men too are feeling that same kind of struggle of why do I push her away or why am I? So, you know, I want this. I want this closeness, but then there's something that just comes out that makes me reject her or I can't perform or, you know, something happens that it just feels like I got to get away. I experience sexual abuse as a child and I resonate with everything you're saying.

39:48 And also that it, it's, it's hitting me, you know, it really being victimized really destroys all six of those pillars that you that you talked about, like every single yeah. 100%, yeah, absolutely. And you know, one of the things that again, as a, as a therapist, I always want to go back to, you know. When we don't have a sense of personal autonomy and power, it's really difficult for us to see ourselves as impactful and important in the world, right? 'cause that's kind of like basic what as humans we look to do. I mean, we, I mean, you can go back to the creation mess.

40:28 You can go back to any, you know, but feeling like we have an impact in the world is one of the foundational aspects of what makes us feel good as humans, right? And so then to be in a situation where your bodily autonomy is taken from you and what you say, what you want doesn't matter it, you know, that's such AI mean. It's such a profoundly impactful experience that can then affect how you see yourself. Even as you grow up, even as you get out of, you know, are not in that experience anymore, not in that situation, you can still develop this imprint that I am powerless and anything I try to make or build something will take it away from me, right?

41:19 And I, I often hear that from trauma survivors or abuse victims, Like I'm always just waiting for that other shoe to drop because I could build up myself so much. And I, and yet I have this core memory of like, everything. I, I like my bodily autonomy, my autonomy being just taken from me. And I couldn't do anything about it. So that's something that's so crucial to, yeah, to heal, to address. Yeah, and, and I know from from past times that that this show has dealt with this from the amount of e-mail I get from from men and so many saying I've never told someone this, but I had this experience. So it's far more common than we realize. Yes.

41:59 It's far more common than people admit or want or want to be. So yeah, yeah, yeah. So whatever stats someone reads about like vast, I can't imagine something else more underreported. 100% men being abused. Yes, yes. And even I mean, I think the rates with women is like one in four, which is still underreported. And then for men, it's even like less reported because of the stigma, because of the Sierra. What that says again, like as a man, you you're supposed to be this like in in control, competent, blah, blah, blah. And the you know, fears of what it, you know, if it was who a man or a woman or a family member or somebody, you know, so a lot of a lot of shame around that.

42:42 But yes, like you said, there's, I mean, I wish, I, I hope again, the paradigm shift that one day it'll feel safe enough in the world for men to tell their stories and be honest about, you know, what they've experienced. Because also, you know, like Bren�� Brown says, like, you know, shame can't stand the light, right? And shedding light on some of these stories is such a good way to normalize. Yeah, and and there aren't many resources. So I previously, it's it's years now, but Anne Silver's was a guest. She wrote the book The Abuse of Men by Women's. Are you familiar with that one? Yes, and then there's another one. Gosh, it's on my bookshelf. It's called His His History, Her Story, and it's written by a woman who is a therapist, but her partner was sexually abused as a child.

43:35 And so she talks about being the partner of a man who has a history of childhood sexual abuse. And then her work also deals with that. But that's also another one that I thought was really good for partners as well. Great, great. Yeah. And definitely I want to vouch and and recommend your book Strong a Relationship Field Guide for the Modern Man. And I know that's available on Amazon. Is, is that the the best place to get it? Yeah. It's also on Audible because I wanted to make it accessible for people that aren't book readers. And if you want, I, I will say this is something I don't want to advocate for because I'm a huge library person. I advocated for my local library. You can also request it at your local library. If you don't want to, you know, get it on Amazon, just put in a request at your local library.

44:20 Hey, can we add this book to the collection? Good local tip, support your library awesome and and your authors cool. So, so Crystal, what's the best way for people to find out more about you and, and and follow everything that you're up to? Right now, I would say probably the best place to follow me is on Instagram at ATX Therapist. So I'm in Austin, TX, so ATX Therapist and then my website, which is currently under a little bit of construction by Strong dot Love is the website. Oh, I mean, when did dot love become a thing? That's. You know, I just got lucky, I guess. Yeah, awesome. I, that's the first time I've heard anyone have that. Great. Good for you. Awesome. Well, Crystal, thanks for your time. Thanks for your work. Thanks for all the energy that you're putting in there to, to be of service to, to bring things more into the light that are bringing men shame and destroying relationships. Everyone can visit the the blog post for this episode. We'll have links to to Crystal's book and all the other books references that we have mentioned during the show. Thanks for joining us for this episode. Please visit realmenfeel.org.

45:21 Links and episodes. As I just said, I'm not repeating myself, but wherever you're discovering real men feel, please subscribe, like, follow, share this with somebody, post, review a comment. In essence, do all the things that you can do on the platform that you're on. If you're ready to challenge the beliefs that that aren't serving you, please consider a booking a clarity call with me by visiting the andygrant.com/talk. You can always reach out to me at realmenfeel@gmail.com. And until next time, be good to yourself.