The Evolution of Masculinity and the Modern Relationship

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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I'm your host, author, coach,
and healer, Andy Grant.

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Please visit theandygrant.com to
learn more about Juan.

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Real Men Feel reminds men that
they are human beings and they

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have the right to experience and
express all of their emotions.

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We have conversations that most
men are not having, but that all

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men can benefit from.
My guest today is Crystal

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DeSantis.
Crystal is a licensed Marriage

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and Family Therapist based in
Austin, TX, known for her

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expertise and relationships,
trauma work and sex therapy.

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Her development of the STRONG
model of relational therapy,

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which blends trauma informed and
attachment based methods, has

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earned her a reputation as a
leading authority in her domain.

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Her recent book, Strong, a
Relationship field guide for the

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Modern Man, offers practical
advice for navigating

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contemporary relationships.
Crystal shares her experiences

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from wanting nothing to do with
marriage to becoming a marriage

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therapist and the development of
her six pillars for strong

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relationships.
We talk about the evolution of

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relationships, the intersection
of pain and helplessness,

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challenges that men face, and a
subject that is horribly under

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discussed, the sexual abuse of
men.

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Let's do it.
Hello and welcome Crystal to

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Real Men Field.
Thank you so much for having me,

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Andy.
What got you interested in

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marriage and family therapy to
begin with?

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Gosh, that actually is really
intertwined with my personal

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story.
So I grew up with parents who

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were really lovely parents to
me, but not very good partners

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to each other.
And so I grew up watching this

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very conflict filled
relationship between them.

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And so when I left home and I
went out in the world, I the one

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thing I knew was, yeah, that
looks terrible.

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Like marriage and family like
that seems so stressful.

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Like I feel like as a kid I got
out of, you know, obviously I've

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got my stuff, but but I was
like, yeah, no, I'm not doing

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that.
Like that looks ridiculous.

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And then I went to college and I
actually went to an all women's

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college and same thing.
I was sitting there, you know,

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listening to my girlfriends and
my roommates.

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They're like, you know,
heartbreak after heartbreak

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after like questioning like, is
he going to call me?

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And like, what does this text
mean?

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And I was like, again, sounds
like a lot of work.

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I'm not interested.
So I just really, you know,

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decided like, dating and
relationships wasn't for me.

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And then I was in my mid 20s and
my younger sister got married.

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And one thing about me is half
my family is Asian and the other

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half is Italian.
So both, both cultures have

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these kind of traditions of
like, you know, you get the

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older 1 married first, then you
move on down the line.

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And so like the pattern had been
disrupted a little bit.

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So it kind of, was it family
pressure or just kind of that

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awareness of like, oh, you know,
my younger sister's gotten

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married and like I've, I've
missed a step, I guess.

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So I decided I was like, well, I
guess I should date.

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And so I literally like went on
a date and I was like, you want

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to be my boyfriend?
I was like, yeah, cool.

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All right.
But it was terrible.

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It was just AI think, 'cause I
didn't have any relationship

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skills.
He was lovely.

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But yeah, we just, you know, so
that ended and I was like, oh,

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wow, I don't know anything about
anything when it comes to love.

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So once again, like back to
being, you know, single and

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focusing on my career, which at
that time was PR and

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communications in the real
estate field.

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And and then a friend of mine
was like, no, you have to try

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this new online dating thing.
And anyway, Long story short,

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and I met my husband, realized
once again, I don't have any

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relationship skills, but I do
like this man and I want to keep

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him in my life.
So I went to therapy and from

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learning stuff myself and then
realizing like oh I can learn

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how to do this and then I can
get the degree and I can help

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others is what led me here.
So was your husband your first

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relationship?
Yes, my first long term

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relationship, the first, you
know, guy I tried to date, it

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was like I was maybe maybe three
months that we lasted because it

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was, you know.
So the first relationship you

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enjoyed at least.
Yeah, the first relationship

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that is like of any substance
was yeah, my husband and from

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day one like.
From talking to you previously,

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I know you have a focus that's
pretty unique with you focus on

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1st responder couples, Yes.
How did that come to be?

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So my husband is a first first
responder and he's also a

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veteran.
And so when I was when we got, I

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was living around a lot of
veterans and growing up, I grew

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up in Japan.
And so a lot of Americans that I

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and I were military couples.
So I just felt like a real

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affinity for that population.
And I noticed when I became a

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therapist that not a lot of
people specialized in that

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population.
And I just was like, well, I

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love, I love this population.
So let me focus on it.

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And as I did, I realized a lot
of the men were the ones also

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not just the couples, but the
men were also the ones that were

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not really being spoken to or
addressed when it came to the

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field of marriage, family and
relationships.

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So that then developed kind of
down into a little further niche

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of, OK, so there's veterans,
first responder couples, but a

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lot of the resources even to
that population focuses on the

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spouses, the women, you know how
to all of that.

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And so I was like, well, again,
let me focus on the the

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marginalized population and that
led me to men's work.

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And do you find that first
responders and vets have

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different issues than the non
first responder or vet male?

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They have unique issues for
sure.

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They're generally in higher
stress environments.

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The couples often have unique
stressors that other, you know,

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the civilian population doesn't
deal with.

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Even just for example, as a
first responder, you know, like

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your husband's gone 24 or 48,
you know, at a time.

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So just unique, unique aspects
and unique stressors that come

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with that.
Also, exposure to a lot of

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trauma, which was also a
specialty of mine, and trauma

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really impacts the way that you
show up in a relationship,

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right, Being on the receiving
end of trauma.

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So that was also something that
I see very much unique in this

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population.
You know, one thing I have asked

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lots of guests, because you
know, some people, someone that

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has a story and then goes into
service, they usually have some

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sort of trauma in their life.
And, and I, I'm sure in your

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clients lives there's trauma.
So I I ask people, is it

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possible to become an adult in
the modern world and not

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experience trauma at some point?
You know, So what I say as as

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like, so part of the work that
I've done also is being a

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supervisor for younger
therapists is I won't say that

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necessarily everybody has
experienced trauma cause

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trauma's so personal, but as a
therapist doing relational work

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without understanding trauma and
attachment doesn't make sense.

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So it's like, yeah, trauma, it's
whether it's attachment trauma

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or, you know, a single incident,
trauma from, you know, a violent

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event or something.
I don't disagree that, you know,

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especially as a therapist or
somebody who wants to help, you

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got to have an understanding of
attachment trauma and how that

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impacts person in the world.
As we're, we're approaching

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election season, or I guess
we're in election season, I

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should say, but I'd a past guest
years ago said that everybody on

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the planet has suffered trauma
because everybody was surprised

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when Donald Trump won the
presidency the first time.

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So we'll see.
Yeah, you know, again, trauma's

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so personal.
Yeah, yeah, that's the way.

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Yeah.
I can't, like I've I've yet to

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meet someone that claims to have
had a trauma free upbringing at

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all.
But yeah, it's just what?

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What degree?
Yeah, yeah, And it so well, I I

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was going to say, you know, part
of that is I actually have it.

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It's, it's so interesting
because when you say that, the

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first thing that comes up for me
is I've actually worked with

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many veterans and 1st responders
who absolutely deny the J of

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trauma, you know, And so that's
also again where it's like, it's

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such a, it's become such a laden
word, you know?

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And so when I say in my book,
and I kind of break it down with

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like the, the, it's the
intersection of pain and

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helplessness, right?
And so whether that's physical

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pain or emotional pain or
relational pain, and then that

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feeling of helplessness, right?
And so whether it is like you're

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in a war zone and you watch
your, you know, the convoy in

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front of you get blown up and
there's nothing you can do.

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Or, you know, on a personal
level, being a kid and your

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parents telling you like, Hey,
we're getting a divorce and you

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know, you never see your one
parent again or, or whatever

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that that situation of, of or
abuse, right?

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Peeing and helplessness, That
intersection right there is

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often where I'm like, if you've
ever experienced that on some

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level, we could call that a
traumatic event.

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Right.
And everyone's a child at some

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point.
And every child is helpless in a

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lot of aspects of their life.
So yeah, yeah, that's why it's

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so prevalent.
So I know you want to create the

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the strong model of relational
therapy.

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Tell tell me what that means.
Yeah, so when I was starting my

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practice again, I knew I wanted
to focus on veterans first

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responders.
And I just like kind of what I

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said was like hypermasculine man
and the people who love them

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because that was kind of the
again, the field or the

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population that I felt was kind
of neglected by the field a

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little bit.
And and so I wanted my practice

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to reflect two things like
tactical skills and a strength

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forward approach.
And so, you know, the tactical

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skills, one of the big obstacles
often to veterans, first

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responders or any kind of, you
know, guy to enter therapy is

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like, well, I'm just going to go
sit on the couch and and she's

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going to make me cry.
And like, how is that helpful?

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You know?
And so I wanted to have an

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acronym that was like, when I
say healthy relationships, what

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does that mean?
And then I wanted a word that

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represents, again, that kind of
strength forward approach.

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And you know the universe, the
stars aligned, and here we are

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strong.
Strong is healthy and strong are

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the six pillars of a healthy
relationship.

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All right, so let's get into the
pillar.

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What are what are those six
pillars?

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Yeah.
So again, these are just kind of

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like from research, from
clinical experience, the six

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things that a healthy
relationship has.

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So number one is safety.
So a healthy relationship is a

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safe relationship.
That means, you know, the people

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that are in it are self aware.
They Co create stability and

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safety together, right?
They have an invested interest

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in making sure that both people
feel safe in the relationship,

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right?
Whether it's physical safety,

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emotional safety, all of it.
They have skills of self

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regulation so that even if they
get upset, they know how to

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regulate their bodies so that
they don't take it out on their

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partner, whether verbally or
physically.

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And they have the skills of
self-expression.

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So I call these the four s s of
safety that again, sometimes in

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a couple at any point, you know,
there's going to be hard

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conversations that need to be
had and they're harder when you

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don't have the words for them,
right?

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Because then it does sometimes
become like an acting out,

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right?
So self-expression, these are

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the four things that help a
relationship feel safe.

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OK, so that's the S, The T is
trust, right?

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The fundamental, like piece of
what makes a relationship a

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relationship is that these
people trust each other, right?

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And so that's also, I talk about
the power of attachment, right?

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If you grew up in a hall where
you couldn't trust your parents,

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you couldn't rely on them, or
you never had a relationship in

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which you could trust the other
person.

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Let's say you have a history of
being cheated on or being, you

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know, abused in a relationship.
Finding a place at a formula

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that you can use to build trust
with your partner is so

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important, right?
In a healthy relationship.

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Then the R is respect.
Again, Like one thing I heard

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00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,520
from talking with a lot of men
is like they want to feel

226
00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,880
respected in their
relationships, right?

227
00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,400
But one thing I saw is, you
know, when you're trying to

228
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,120
demand respect from your
partner, but you don't have self

229
00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,040
respect because you're acting in
ways that you're not proud of or

230
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,120
you don't understand how to
respect their boundaries as a

231
00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,280
pardar, there's going to be
issues, there's going to be

232
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:31,840
conflict, there's going to be
pain.

233
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:37,040
So having safety, trust and
respect are kind of those first

234
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,520
three steps to a healthy
relationship.

235
00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,520
Then once we kind of get those
three really solid, because what

236
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I often say is if you don't have
those safety trust or respect

237
00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:53,960
those elements, you really don't
have a foundation for a healthy

238
00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:55,600
relationship.
So that your relationship is

239
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,240
going to be in constant crisis
mode, right?

240
00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,920
So STR helps your relationship
survive.

241
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,840
And once we get there, then we
can go to the Ong parts of what

242
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:11,440
makes a relationship thrive.
And so that's openness, right?

243
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,840
Building in an open line of
communication, open,

244
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:21,920
transparent, honest environment
in your relationship where we

245
00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,400
can also build in that growth
mindset that, you know, the

246
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,120
person that you are when you're
20 or 30 and you meet your

247
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,000
partner is not going to be the
same person that you are when

248
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,520
you're 50 or 60.
And that's a good thing, right?

249
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,520
Your partner's also going to be
changing throughout their life

250
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,960
as well, hopefully, right?
And so that was something else.

251
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,440
It's like not being threatened
by what happens when you are

252
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,600
open in a relationship, right?
So openness, make sure you grow

253
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,240
together rather than a part
nurturing is the end.

254
00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,080
So again, like I was thinking
about what makes, what makes a

255
00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,920
relationship not just survive,
but really thrive.

256
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:03,640
And what I saw in reading a lot
of research and even just like

257
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:07,440
in the experiential is when
people feel like the other

258
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,480
partner is their cheerleader,
right?

259
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,160
And they nurture, like I know my
partner wants me to be the best,

260
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,280
best version of me.
And if I'm going through a slump

261
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,960
that they really care about, how
can we get you back to the best

262
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:24,160
version of you?
Like, what do you need to do to

263
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,080
go spark your interest to go,
you know, find yourself and be

264
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,440
like, be at the good place
again, you know, just nurturing

265
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:35,320
each other's hopes and dreams so
that you don't feel like.

266
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,160
Because one thing I saw a lot of
an old, like old models of

267
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,440
relationship is that you have to
give up so much of yourself to

268
00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,520
be in a relationship, right.
Like the old ball and chain.

269
00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,680
Yeah, I wish I could do that,
but married now, you know, or.

270
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,680
Yeah, you know, and that idea
that you have to like, like cut

271
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,800
parts of yourself off to fit
into this like, relationship

272
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,280
box.
And I really hated that.

273
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,560
Like, I don't like that, you
know, I mean, on a psychological

274
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,480
level as well.
I think it, I mean, there's lots

275
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:08,520
of stuff coming out about this
now, but that kind of in some

276
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,880
ways, again, causation,
correlation, whatever.

277
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,040
But like then the midlife
experience of like, I can't live

278
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,440
like this anymore, right?
And like, there are so many

279
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,680
stories of people that are like,
I've never saw this coding life.

280
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,440
So he was so straight laced and
followed all the rules and like

281
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,280
lived life by a little script
until one day he just like got

282
00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:30,680
out, tore those clothes off,
bought a motorcycle and, you

283
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:32,640
know, now lives on a beach and
he sings happy.

284
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,640
He's like, well, you know, we
got to find a balance between

285
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,000
like expecting that people cut
off parts of themselves to fit

286
00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:43,640
into a rigid relationship role,
and then he'll screw it up.

287
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,320
Just going to go, you know, live
my wild self.

288
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,680
It's like, how can we nurture
that wild self in a

289
00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,480
relationship, right?
Finding that balance and that

290
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,440
nurturing together.
And then, of course, also, if

291
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,880
you're going to have children,
how can you nurture a family

292
00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:03,440
legacy and, you know, all of the
things that matter when it comes

293
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:09,280
to being a parent and, and
fostering and a nurturing

294
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:12,599
environment for children to grow
up in was also another thing

295
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:16,119
that I found really important
for the longevity of a couple.

296
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,599
And then the G is that kind of
final aspect of the, the

297
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:24,520
generous, the this generosity.
And so that generous mindset of,

298
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,960
you know, not just thinking
about me and what I want, but if

299
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,880
I'm thinking about my partner
and our couple, like, how do I

300
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,160
switch into being generous and,
and considering their needs?

301
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,400
And so that's really that kind
of final, like when you have all

302
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,400
of these solid things, the
little cherry on top is that

303
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,640
generous mindset where you're
like, you know, let me do

304
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,560
something nice for that just
because I guess I have to be in

305
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,520
plain, you know, anniversary,
like here's your flowers or

306
00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,720
here's your, you know, here's
your pound of flesh.

307
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:04,400
But here's it's like the
generous mindset of like, I want

308
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,360
them to be happy and that makes
me happy, right?

309
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,680
Yeah.
Cool, that's a really good

310
00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,040
acronym and it it it every
pillar feels solid and honest

311
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,840
and and valid cause some feel
forced.

312
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,960
So I went did it did it take a
long time to get there?

313
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,000
Like was there a lot of other
words trying to make work?

314
00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,880
Or, you know, it's so funny and
I think this is, I'm just like,

315
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,120
you know, I, I'm it just from
the beginning.

316
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,680
It's what it was.
Yeah.

317
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,080
I wanted, I wanted something
that represented strength.

318
00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,720
And it worked out and it worked.
So what way did you decide to

319
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,760
write the book for men?
So what really sparked it is

320
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,480
that, you know, when I would
work with these couples, first

321
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,040
of all, like one thing I'd
learned about men, which

322
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,920
obviously, you know, tell me if
you agree or not, but you know,

323
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,120
I always noticed that they
wanted some idea of structure.

324
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,440
They wanted insight.
They wanted to be able to feel

325
00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:09,080
empowered in the process, right.
And so, you know, often after

326
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,280
the first session, I always
wanted to like offer resources

327
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:14,800
and like, you know, if you want
to look up the science or if you

328
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,400
have any questions, or here's a
book I can recommend or here's a

329
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,360
podcast I can recommend.
And when I started to notice is

330
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:23,560
that I was recommending a lot
more resources to the female

331
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,200
client simply because there are
so many more resources for

332
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,600
women.
And so when it came to the guys,

333
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,240
I was like, Oh, I want to give
you something.

334
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:36,120
But I, I, there's, you know,
just, it wasn't as I didn't have

335
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:39,760
as much to give them.
And so that was part of writing

336
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,920
this book for men.
It was, you know, these are

337
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,000
strong relationship principles
that anybody can use.

338
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,280
But I wanted to also speak to
the specific struggles of what I

339
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,920
saw men experiencing when it
came to relationships.

340
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,880
So what are some of those common
struggles that you see men

341
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:57,840
running into?
Yeah.

342
00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,680
So the big thing that I saw was,
you know, relationships.

343
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,600
The, the premise of
relationships have changed in a

344
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:11,200
very, very short period of time.
And what I mean by that is, you

345
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,760
know, for a long time, I mean
generations, being in a

346
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,440
relationship was kind of
fundamental to survival, right?

347
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,400
Especially for for women, right,
is you couldn't, you couldn't

348
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,160
buy a house, you couldn't
support yourself.

349
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,120
You couldn't just be a single
woman in the world.

350
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:31,920
It just wasn't a thing, right?
And so a lot of the way that

351
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,080
women would that men as their
partners was, you know, can he

352
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:37,960
protect me?
Can he provide for me?

353
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:39,680
Can he give me babies?
Right.

354
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,320
Protect, provide, procreate.
These were the kind of tenants

355
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,280
of masculinity, right?
If you had these three things,

356
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,160
you were a good catch in the
dating market.

357
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,760
Parents would try and set you up
with their daughters would be

358
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,120
like, yeah, I guess, you know,
here we are, right?

359
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:57,760
Not at all saying that love
relationships weren't a same,

360
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,560
but it wasn't the foundation of
marriage, right?

361
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,360
I mean, yeah, there's just so
much research on this.

362
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:11,720
And, you know, and So what has
changed very quickly is that, I

363
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,880
mean, within the past few
decades, marriage has started to

364
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,560
be an option, not an obligation,
right?

365
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,320
Like a woman could not get
married these days, right?

366
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,200
And not be a man, same thing
like a single man.

367
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,360
I mean, there were always
bachelor men back in the day,

368
00:21:27,360 --> 00:21:31,200
but you know, it could it's now
an active choice, not

369
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,480
necessarily a requirement to be
a part of society to be a

370
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,160
married person.
And same thing if you're a

371
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,680
married person, you can also now
choose to be an unmarried

372
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,600
person, right?
And so that like, how do you

373
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,880
maintain a relationship when
that is the new landscape?

374
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,840
That was something that I saw
was very confusing to a lot of

375
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,160
men.
Like what do we do when we're

376
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,760
not needed?
How like we're we're also

377
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,560
getting the message that we're
not wanted.

378
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:03,840
So what do we do right?
So what do they do?

379
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:04,680
Yeah.
Well.

380
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,640
Because I imagine they're
supposed to come up a lot for

381
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,200
the first responders too,
because that's emphasizing that

382
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,080
protector mode, that being.
Valuable.

383
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,240
Totally.
So when when that comes to an

384
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,000
end, yeah, due to choice or not
choice, I imagine it's more

385
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:18,680
traumatic.
Yeah.

386
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,080
If it's not by your choice,
absolutely.

387
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,760
And that was something again,
like whether it's first

388
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,640
responder or I, I heard that a
lot from them where they're

389
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:30,200
like, I'm doing the things that
I thought women value in men.

390
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,680
Like I put a roof over her head.
I'm providing a good paycheck.

391
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,520
I, you know, like I could beat
up any guy if any guy looks at

392
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,800
her wrong.
And like, I gave her babies,

393
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,200
what else?
Like, why is she still unhappy?

394
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:46,680
And so that's really what it
was, is expanding the

395
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,480
definitions of what does it mean
to be a protector?

396
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,000
What does it mean to be a
provider?

397
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,680
What does it mean to be a
procreator?

398
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,440
Maybe it's being a parent now
and they just expanding that.

399
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,480
So it's like we're not.
My message is never like, oh, we

400
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,320
just need to change, you know,
don't be masculine anymore.

401
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:07,880
It's women still want masculine
men, but the ways of being

402
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:13,680
protective and being a provider
just need to adapt and change

403
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,160
and modernize to be attractive
to the modern woman, right.

404
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,120
And also this is also part of
humanizing men.

405
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,800
Like you know, your entire
mission and it's like never, not

406
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,200
just a fist and a wallet, you
know, and A and a penis.

407
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,200
It's like men also then being
able to inhabit their entire

408
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,760
humanity and knowing that they
are wanted in relationships, not

409
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,000
just needed because they're
useful, because they have

410
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,800
performance value, which then if
you stop performing well, then

411
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,680
you're out, you know, and that
kind of disposable view of of

412
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,720
masculine.
Yeah, 'cause I'd love to.

413
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,360
The notion of providing also
means, again, it's not just

414
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:57,240
shelter or money, it's joy.
Yes, it's love.

415
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:01,920
It's a high vibration and
procreating and raising

416
00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,640
miserable children especially
more you miserable boys that

417
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:05,600
become.
Miserable men.

418
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:07,280
That does not help the planet at
all.

419
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,360
Absolutely.
Absolutely.

420
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,080
Yeah.
And then protecting, too.

421
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,960
That was something is, you know,
being physically, you know, good

422
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,560
for you.
And, you know, everybody take

423
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,280
care of your health, do what
makes you feel good and healthy

424
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,800
and all of that and empowered.
You know, there is something

425
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:27,480
really mentally powerful about
being able to feel strong

426
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,880
physically.
I am feeling capable physically.

427
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,840
And yet hinging your masculinity
on that is like a really

428
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,600
teetering, you know, like it's
so it can be so fragile, right?

429
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,760
Because our our bodies are all
gonna age and, you know,

430
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,080
struggle at some point, right?
And so really getting away from

431
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,680
this idea that, like, physical
protection and like muscles is

432
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,720
the same because also the
threats to relationships have

433
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,760
changed, right.
So, you know, evolutionary back

434
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,600
in the day, yeah, being a strong
man who could fight off the

435
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:08,760
wolves and, you know, fight off
the, I don't know, pillagers and

436
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,040
all of that was super useful
because that was the biggest

437
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,880
threat to your family's safety.
But now what is actually the

438
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,360
threat to your family's safety?
Maybe it's maybe it's porn

439
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:22,320
addiction.
Maybe it's an emotional affair,

440
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:27,400
maybe it's work or alcohol
taking you away from being

441
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,320
present and connected, right?
And so being able to be a

442
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,640
protector, but an appropriate
connector for an appropriate

443
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,720
protector for the threats that
are actually being faced by the

444
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,280
relationship, right?
Yeah, 'cause if you're a great

445
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,400
physical protector, but you come
home and you find your wife or

446
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,160
children crying and that just
makes you freeze, I don't know

447
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,040
what to do with this.
Like, yeah, you got to be a

448
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,400
protector in all aspects of your
humanity, as you said earlier.

449
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,840
So besides what we already
talked about, what are some

450
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,840
other common misconceptions that
you you like to debunk?

451
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:08,440
Yeah, You know, I, what I also
like to name is that we're right

452
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,800
on the frontier of a completely
new paradigm, right.

453
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,720
And so I guess part of, you
know, what I always like to

454
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:21,080
mention for men is like, you
know, not all women are by

455
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,560
default healthy either, right?
And so that's also what I wanted

456
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:30,360
to focus this book on, on men is
like, sure, women might have had

457
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:32,320
a few more years.
And I think there's a message

458
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,400
out there which is not totally
untrue that women have had a

459
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,120
head start when it comes to
like, you know, self help and

460
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:43,720
therapy and all of that.
But you know, y'all can catch

461
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,680
up.
And then The thing is, it's not

462
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,880
just men versus women, which I'm
hearing a lot in social media is

463
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,320
like, you know, women and men
are done with each other and

464
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:54,160
blah, blah, blah.
First of all, like that's not

465
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,320
sustainable.
And second of all, it's not true

466
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,960
when it comes down to it, right?
People are wired for connection.

467
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,680
We crave connection.
We want to be seen, we want to

468
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,000
be known.
The more you can feel confident

469
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:13,320
in your skills as a relationship
partner also, then the better

470
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,160
off you will be when you do
enter the dating market or the

471
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,880
better off you'll be in
addressing the issues in your

472
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:21,600
relationship if you do choose to
go to therapy or if you do

473
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,040
choose.
So that's something that that

474
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,880
misconception like, oh, well,
men are so far behind there's no

475
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,280
point in even trying to catch up
because women are done with us.

476
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,040
It's like, that's not true.
That's a very loud minority.

477
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,680
It's not true.
You know, there are a lot of

478
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,800
women out there that are rooting
for men and saying like, we want

479
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,960
you here, we want you present.
Like we want like, and a lot of

480
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,240
men speaking to their brothers
and the other men, like we guys,

481
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,080
we got this, we can do this.
And so just listen for those

482
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,720
voices, right?
So you mentioned the new

483
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,080
paradigm.
Can you name that?

484
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,200
What?
What are we on the frontier of,

485
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:58,600
exactly?
I think what we're on the

486
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,520
frontier of is, you know, again,
there was the past relationships

487
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,280
that were very dominated by like
kind of transaction and function

488
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,960
and basic need where the roles
were very clear, right?

489
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,160
Women needed men for physical
protection.

490
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,560
Women needed men to pay the
bills and go to work because

491
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,600
women couldn't, right,
societally.

492
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:23,520
And then the things have shifted
and kind of shaken apart and

493
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,960
we're we're still figuring out
what the future looks like,

494
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:28,720
right?
And I think some people are

495
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,280
really trying to rush the ending
of like, well, now then women

496
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:33,480
are in charge.
It's like, no, no, no, no, no,

497
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,480
that's not necessarily it
either, right?

498
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,600
Like the new paradigm is how do
we work together as equally

499
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,360
strong individuals, right?
That strong men are out there

500
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,960
and so are strong women.
And they are not a threat to

501
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,160
each other.
If anything, when they partner

502
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,440
up, when they find each other,
they are power couples, right?

503
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,800
And they, those power families
that have strong legacies that

504
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,480
then build, you know, create
environments for healthy

505
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,120
children.
And that's where like that's

506
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,880
where I'm hoping this new
paradigm leads us.

507
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,920
It's not well, strong men have
their day now.

508
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,680
It's the era of the strong
woman.

509
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,200
It's like, no, no, no, come on.
Let's all grow up a little bit

510
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,120
like.
Yeah, even I even the most

511
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,920
extreme male basher, like I
don't hear anyone saying the

512
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:21,120
world needs more weak men like
that.

513
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,080
I've not heard that rallying cry
from anybody.

514
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:29,640
Like, gosh, yes, but again, like
strong in a new way, right?

515
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:35,320
Or or strong in all aspects.
Like, Yep, yeah, again, not not

516
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,080
a strong monopod, but at least a
tripod of stability.

517
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,480
Yeah, yeah.
Now I I was looking at your your

518
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,000
book and name is so strong, a
relationship field guide for the

519
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,480
modern man and and something in
the description caught my eye

520
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,800
from men looking for ways to
distinguish themselves as high

521
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,560
value partners in the current
relationship landscape.

522
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,120
So that still sounds very
transactional.

523
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,040
Is that you still you got to
stand out and put put like your

524
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,520
dating resume and, you know,
wear it and be it.

525
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,720
Is that what that's saying?
No, no, it is a.

526
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:15,480
It is a trendy phrase, but I
guess what I wanted to speak to

527
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:19,840
is the idea that, you know, it
can be daunting right now to

528
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,440
look at the dating landscape
because it is so confusing and

529
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,240
hostile, right?
And So what I'm hearing from a

530
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,240
lot of men is like, what's the
point?

531
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,800
Like, why would I put myself out
there just to get beat up and

532
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,360
rejected and laughed at?
It makes no sense.

533
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,520
Why would I do that?
And so part of it is, well, go

534
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,640
in, you know, sure, yes, that's
very daunting and all of that.

535
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:49,000
And if you can go in with a
plan, if you can go in with that

536
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:53,320
sense of I've got everything
I've done everything that I can

537
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,520
do on my side to be a high value
partner.

538
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,320
That will also help you feel
confident that if you do walk

539
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,360
into an environment where you
know, somebody is just using you

540
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,920
for a free meal or you're,
you're walking into an

541
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,680
environment where nobody is
really interested, then you know

542
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,600
it's not about you.
And you can say, this is not the

543
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,080
environment that I will find my
partner in, right?

544
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,200
And that will help distinguish
you as like, I know my value

545
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,160
because I've done the work to be
the high value partner that I

546
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,880
want to be.
And that will also give you that

547
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,760
confidence that, oh, I am also
able to recognize when I welcome

548
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,360
to situations that this is not
where I'm going to find my

549
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,240
partner.
And I'm glad you in, in that you

550
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,240
mentioned, you know, the the
attitude of well, what's the

551
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,720
point?
Why am I bothering this?

552
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,680
And cause another part of your,
the book description called out

553
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,800
something that caught my eye was
that this provides the motivated

554
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,960
modern man with applicable tools
and skills to step up their

555
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,040
relational game.
And that's that motivation part.

556
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,320
Cause yeah, guys, you got to
take action like, yeah.

557
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,280
So I don't care how many books
you read, I don't care how

558
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,520
people you talk to, If if it
doesn't translate into the

559
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,160
physical daily activities of
you, nothing in your life will

560
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,680
change.
Would you agree with?

561
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,680
That 100%, yeah, yes, I love
that.

562
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,280
Oh, there's a, there's a quote
that's like right on the tip of

563
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,440
my.
It's it's basically like, yeah,

564
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,400
like insight is no substitute
for action.

565
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,760
Yeah.
That's like you do need insights

566
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,480
and it's not a substitute for
action.

567
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:26,520
Right.
Yeah, it shouldn't inspire

568
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,560
action.
Just yeah, the rule doesn't

569
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,360
change by people going uh huh,
Yeah, they're going to then do.

570
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,320
Exactly.
Because I can you said earlier

571
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,280
that not all women are healthy
and I can imagine lots of guy

572
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,960
like this guy's listening
cheering that moment but but

573
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,600
yeah but that doesn't mean you
go she's she's not healthy and

574
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:45,880
you just stay the same you're.
Right.

575
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,440
And do nothing, just find
another and I'll help the other,

576
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,640
right.
And but that's really again,

577
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,400
where I think this is maybe what
the new paradigm is that as more

578
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,080
and more people get healthy,
because honestly, this is what

579
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,960
I'm seeing in the dating market
right now, is the healthy people

580
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:03,280
are struggling to find partners
that are equally at their level,

581
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,000
right?
Because a lot of people still

582
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,600
aren't doing the work, right?
A lot of people are still stuck

583
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,200
in blame mode.
And like, whose fault is this?

584
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,000
Is it women's fault?
Is it men's fault?

585
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,560
Like blah, blah, blah.
And so the healthy people are

586
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,880
kind of like they're leveling up
and there's not a lot of

587
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,600
partners at their level.
And so that's really where I'm

588
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,800
hoping that the paradigm of
like, when enough people realize

589
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,320
like we're sick of this blaze
game, we're sick of this, like,

590
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,920
whose fault is it?
I want to step up.

591
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,680
I want to make sure I can be the
highest value partner I can be.

592
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,440
And then when you, when enough
people get to that level, it's

593
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,240
like Malcolm Gladwell talks
about the tipping point, right?

594
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,560
It's like when enough people
level up their relational game

595
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,920
where they're like, OK, I, I
recognize it's not about like,

596
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,360
you know, blah, blah, blah.
At least, you know, negative

597
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,880
conversations down here.
That's where I think the

598
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,800
paradigm will shift, where then
healthier people will be able to

599
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,640
find healthy partners more
easily.

600
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,880
Right now it is a little sparse.
And so that's kind of

601
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,280
discouraging where I've heard
people where they're like, well,

602
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:07,000
I've done all this work and then
I, I, I've like, there's nobody

603
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,800
out there for me.
I'm like, I get it.

604
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,239
But trust more people will do
the work.

605
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,639
And you know, that'll be the
paradigm shift.

606
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,120
Yeah, I mean, I hear that a lot.
I I hear from a lot of female

607
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,280
listeners and friends that like
Andy, you've got to make a

608
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,400
dating site like where where,
where the real men feel

609
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,000
listeners, Where can I find the
single real men that are willing

610
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,159
to feel.
And I, I, I don't know what to

611
00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:32,800
do with them, but yeah, so, so.
And when I tell people when

612
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,360
they're looking for like, well,
the go to the places that you

613
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,679
feel drawn to as a healthy, you
know, personal growth inspired

614
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,360
woman or man and just look who's
there.

615
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,159
But it be it a bookstore or an
event, but you know, while

616
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,400
you're going to the things that
you enjoy, have your eyes open.

617
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:52,719
Yeah, I'm glad that women know
that you're out there.

618
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,560
I'm glad that men know that
you're out there.

619
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,880
Because really, that's going to
be the same, right?

620
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,200
Is when right now it's kind of
people are segregated into their

621
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,720
gender groups a little bit.
Like the healthy women are

622
00:35:03,720 --> 00:35:06,960
hanging out with other healthy
women and the healthy men are

623
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,360
hanging out with other healthy
men.

624
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,040
And it's kind of like a middle
school dance where they're like,

625
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,240
who's gonna, who's gonna make
the 1st man, right.

626
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,880
And so that I think that's going
to be that next phase of like

627
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,000
the bridges of how do these
healthy people find each other

628
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:23,640
because, yeah, it is tough right
now.

629
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:27,040
Yeah.
So I want to change the subject

630
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:28,760
a bit because I want to get a
chance to to get this.

631
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,400
But when we first spoke, I asked
you, is there something you

632
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:33,920
don't get to talk about that
much?

633
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,120
And you wish you could.
And you said that was men as

634
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,720
survivors of abusive
relationships, especially sexual

635
00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:44,120
abuse.
So in your experience, how how

636
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,400
is is how does sexual abuse of
men impact their relationships?

637
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,080
Oh, huge.
I mean, so this is something

638
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:53,960
actually that.
Yeah.

639
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,560
So as I became a therapist,
right?

640
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,920
And I wanted to work with men
and I got my trauma training.

641
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:06,800
I also got sex therapy training.
And So what I started to attract

642
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,840
were people that, you know, were
having sexual issues in their

643
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:16,640
relationships and often
underneath whatever the surface

644
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,880
level, you know, sexual
dysfunction was, there was a

645
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:24,840
deep story of pain around a
sexual experience that was

646
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:32,200
either abusive, non consensual.
And a lot of men were the ones

647
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,720
telling me those stories.
Again, like I have a lot of

648
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:39,080
colleagues who work with sex
therapy and they hear a lot of

649
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,360
stories from female survivors.
And I just was ending up sharing

650
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,440
a lot of stories from men.
And the research and the the

651
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,520
stories from that community just
were not as prevalent.

652
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:55,240
And yet it is the same.
You know, when you are on the

653
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:59,920
receiving end of abuse,
especially physical or sexual

654
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:09,040
abuse, it really does tangle the
the way that your brain develops

655
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:14,040
around receiving love and safety
and how that gets tangled with

656
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,640
the experience of pain and lack
of safety.

657
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,080
And that is something that I
would see a lot then.

658
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,600
And the way it impacted people
in relationships is I want to be

659
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,800
physically close to somebody or
I want to be emotionally close

660
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:35,280
with somebody.
But I have this terrible long

661
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:40,040
history of what that could feel
like and the pain that that can

662
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:48,320
cause and the lack of autonomy
and the, I think loss of power

663
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:53,280
over my own body or my own
experience in that that was

664
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:57,800
often a really just a really
scary place to go.

665
00:37:58,720 --> 00:38:01,800
Just boiling it down to what
does trauma do and what does

666
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,840
abuse do?
Is it it changes us from kids

667
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,480
from being open and seeing the
world as like a safe and loving

668
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,360
place and our parents as loving
and safe people.

669
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:14,640
It changes us.
It changes our brain to then see

670
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,480
other people as threats.
The world is a dangerous place

671
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,560
and it puts us in protection
mode.

672
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,720
And So what I often saw with men
this, I mean, speaking to about

673
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,680
men right now, so men with a
history of of sexual abuse in

674
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:34,240
childhood was two things.
One is being really disembodied

675
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:39,680
from their own sexuality, right?
If they were like objectified

676
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,160
sexually in that way, it can be
really kind of a disembodying

677
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,920
experience as a child.
It's a way a child can kind of

678
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,360
keep themselves safe through
that experience or brains,

679
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,120
right?
And so still feeling kind of

680
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,120
disembodied from their
sexuality.

681
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,280
And then the other one is
emotionally feeling this push,

682
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:02,960
pull between desiring connection
and desiring to be vulnerable.

683
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,240
And then that warning where that
pull back of no, it's not safe,

684
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,240
push them away, push them away.
And so that again, was also

685
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:13,880
really confusing, not just for
their partners or like, I'm

686
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,760
trying to be close to you or,
you know, I feel so connected to

687
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:18,520
you.
And then and then I feel

688
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,680
rejected by you or then you push
me away and then you close off

689
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,400
again.
And you know, I don't, I don't

690
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,320
know what's going on.
And the, and the men too are

691
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,680
feeling that same kind of
struggle of why do I push her

692
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,960
away or why am I?
So, you know, I want this.

693
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,280
I want this closeness, but then
there's something that just

694
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,280
comes out that makes me reject
her or I can't perform or, you

695
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,560
know, something happens that it
just feels like I got to get

696
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,280
away.
I experience sexual abuse as a

697
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,800
child and I resonate with
everything you're saying.

698
00:39:48,240 --> 00:39:51,560
And also that it, it's, it's
hitting me, you know, it really

699
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,120
being victimized really destroys
all six of those pillars that

700
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,720
you that you talked about, like
every single yeah. 100%, yeah,

701
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,480
absolutely.
And you know, one of the things

702
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,120
that again, as a, as a
therapist, I always want to go

703
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,000
back to, you know.
When we don't have a sense of

704
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,720
personal autonomy and power,
it's really difficult for us to

705
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:23,080
see ourselves as impactful and
important in the world, right?

706
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,600
'cause that's kind of like basic
what as humans we look to do.

707
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:28,920
I mean, we, I mean, you can go
back to the creation mess.

708
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,480
You can go back to any, you
know, but feeling like we have

709
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,880
an impact in the world is one of
the foundational aspects of what

710
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:39,760
makes us feel good as humans,
right?

711
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:45,400
And so then to be in a situation
where your bodily autonomy is

712
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:53,280
taken from you and what you say,
what you want doesn't matter it,

713
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,840
you know, that's such AI mean.
It's such a profoundly impactful

714
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,160
experience that can then affect
how you see yourself.

715
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,080
Even as you grow up, even as you
get out of, you know, are not in

716
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,720
that experience anymore, not in
that situation, you can still

717
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:14,800
develop this imprint that I am
powerless and anything I try to

718
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,040
make or build something will
take it away from me, right?

719
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:22,360
And I, I often hear that from
trauma survivors or abuse

720
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,400
victims, Like I'm always just
waiting for that other shoe to

721
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:26,920
drop because I could build up
myself so much.

722
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,800
And I, and yet I have this core
memory of like, everything.

723
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,920
I, I like my bodily autonomy, my
autonomy being just taken from

724
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,280
me.
And I couldn't do anything about

725
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,280
it.
So that's something that's so

726
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:43,760
crucial to, yeah, to heal, to
address.

727
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,160
Yeah, and, and I know from from
past times that that this show

728
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:51,000
has dealt with this from the
amount of e-mail I get from from

729
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,880
men and so many saying I've
never told someone this, but I

730
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,560
had this experience.
So it's far more common than we

731
00:41:58,560 --> 00:41:59,320
realize.
Yes.

732
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:02,200
It's far more common than people
admit or want or want to be.

733
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,200
So yeah, yeah, yeah.
So whatever stats someone reads

734
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,560
about like vast, I can't imagine
something else more

735
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:11,160
underreported. 100% men being
abused.

736
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,920
Yes, yes.
And even I mean, I think the

737
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,160
rates with women is like one in
four, which is still

738
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,640
underreported.
And then for men, it's even like

739
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,760
less reported because of the
stigma, because of the Sierra.

740
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,840
What that says again, like as a
man, you you're supposed to be

741
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,080
this like in in control,
competent, blah, blah, blah.

742
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,440
And the you know, fears of what
it, you know, if it was who a

743
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,800
man or a woman or a family
member or somebody, you know, so

744
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,080
a lot of a lot of shame around
that.

745
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:46,680
But yes, like you said, there's,
I mean, I wish, I, I hope again,

746
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,600
the paradigm shift that one day
it'll feel safe enough in the

747
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:55,040
world for men to tell their
stories and be honest about, you

748
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,920
know, what they've experienced.
Because also, you know, like

749
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,040
Bren�� Brown says, like, you
know, shame can't stand the

750
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:03,240
light, right?
And shedding light on some of

751
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:06,120
these stories is such a good way
to normalize.

752
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,160
Yeah, and and there aren't many
resources.

753
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:12,920
So I previously, it's it's years
now, but Anne Silver's was a

754
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:14,400
guest.
She wrote the book The Abuse of

755
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,400
Men by Women's.
Are you familiar with that one?

756
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,120
Yes, and then there's another
one.

757
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:25,400
Gosh, it's on my bookshelf.
It's called His His History, Her

758
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:31,280
Story, and it's written by a
woman who is a therapist, but

759
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,000
her partner was sexually abused
as a child.

760
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,640
And so she talks about being the
partner of a man who has a

761
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,240
history of childhood sexual
abuse.

762
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,320
And then her work also deals
with that.

763
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,200
But that's also another one that
I thought was really good for

764
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,800
partners as well.
Great, great.

765
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:51,600
Yeah.
And definitely I want to vouch

766
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,880
and and recommend your book
Strong a Relationship Field

767
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,680
Guide for the Modern Man.
And I know that's available on

768
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:59,720
Amazon.
Is, is that the the best place

769
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:00,120
to get it?
Yeah.

770
00:44:00,240 --> 00:44:03,760
It's also on Audible because I
wanted to make it accessible for

771
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,280
people that aren't book readers.
And if you want, I, I will say

772
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,280
this is something I don't want
to advocate for because I'm a

773
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,960
huge library person.
I advocated for my local

774
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,240
library.
You can also request it at your

775
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:17,080
local library.
If you don't want to, you know,

776
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,560
get it on Amazon, just put in a
request at your local library.

777
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,480
Hey, can we add this book to the
collection?

778
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,640
Good local tip, support your
library awesome and and your

779
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,720
authors cool.
So, so Crystal, what's the best

780
00:44:28,720 --> 00:44:31,680
way for people to find out more
about you and, and and follow

781
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,120
everything that you're up to?
Right now, I would say probably

782
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,200
the best place to follow me is
on Instagram at ATX Therapist.

783
00:44:38,240 --> 00:44:42,880
So I'm in Austin, TX, so ATX
Therapist and then my website,

784
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,360
which is currently under a
little bit of construction by

785
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:50,000
Strong dot Love is the website.
Oh, I mean, when did dot love

786
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:50,960
become a thing?
That's.

787
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,960
You know, I just got lucky, I
guess.

788
00:44:53,720 --> 00:44:55,560
Yeah, awesome.
I, that's the first time I've

789
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,080
heard anyone have that.
Great.

790
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:58,440
Good for you.
Awesome.

791
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,160
Well, Crystal, thanks for your
time.

792
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,640
Thanks for your work.
Thanks for all the energy that

793
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,360
you're putting in there to, to
be of service to, to bring

794
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,800
things more into the light that
are bringing men shame and

795
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,200
destroying relationships.
Everyone can visit the the blog

796
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,840
post for this episode.
We'll have links to to Crystal's

797
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,720
book and all the other books
references that we have

798
00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:18,400
mentioned during the show.
Thanks for joining us for this

799
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:20,240
episode.
Please visit realmenfeel.org.

800
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:22,760
Links and episodes.
As I just said, I'm not

801
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:25,320
repeating myself, but wherever
you're discovering real men

802
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,640
feel, please subscribe, like,
follow, share this with

803
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:29,040
somebody, post, review a
comment.

804
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,000
In essence, do all the things
that you can do on the platform

805
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,000
that you're on.
If you're ready to challenge the

806
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,680
beliefs that that aren't serving
you, please consider a booking a

807
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:40,240
clarity call with me by visiting
the andygrant.com/talk.

808
00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:43,400
You can always reach out to me
at realmenfeel@gmail.com.

809
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,200
And until next time, be good to
yourself.