The Healing Potential of Psychedelics

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer, Andy Grant.

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Please visit theandygrant.com to
learn more about me.

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Real Men Feel reminds men that
they are human beings and they

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have the right to experience and
express all of their emotions.

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We have conversations that most
men are not having, but that all

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men can benefit from.
My guest today is Matt Zeman.

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Matt is the best selling author
of three books about

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psychedelics, including the
newly released The Veteran's

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Guide to Psychedelics.
Matt holds a master's degree in

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Psychology and neuroscience from
King's College in London.

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He combines academic insights
with a passion for safe and

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sacred psychedelic use.
Matt has seen first hand how

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psychedelics have helped people
from different walks of life and

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his goal is to normalize the
conversation and reduce stigma.

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Matt shares how he first got
into this line of work, what

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psychedelics did for him, and
the importance of integration.

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Matt offers US one thing he
wishes more men knew, stresses

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that psychedelics are a
catalyst, not a cure, and I

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share my experiences with the
psychedelics.

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Let's do it.
Hello and welcome to Real and

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Feel Matt.
And it is good to be here.

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How's your day going?
It's it's spectacular.

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Psychedelic free yet
spectacular.

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There we go, both those things
can be true.

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Yeah, and I wanna, so I wanna
share with you and listeners a

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bit of my experience with
psychedelics.

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I've done magic mushrooms in the
teens 1617 times throughout high

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school and college.
Always just illicit leave for

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fun.
No, no intention of healing or

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anything like that.
I visited the Peruvian Amazon in

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2006, which is where I first
heard of ayahuasca, and the

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shaman let me hold the bottle of
it but would not let us partake

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in it.
But then I did have the chance

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to do ayahuasca, which I've done
once in July of 2011, and I had

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a fantastic experience.
The the shaman leading it said

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he had never seen anyone have a
better first time experience.

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So I was like, all right, that's
all I need.

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Like go out on top.
So what first got you interested

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in psychedelics?
And I fell into this by

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accident.
I had some friends invite me to

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a guided magic mushroom
experience.

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And I was like, I don't think
so.

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I don't do those kinds of
things.

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I was in my mid, mid 40s.
And they they said, yeah, you do

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do these things.
This would be good for you.

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So something inside of me said
yes.

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And in that very first
experience, it just changed the

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way I look at the world.
I reconnected with my mom.

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I could understand that my
parents dying young wasn't my

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story.
I just insight after insight

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after insight and realized how
safe and loved I felt in that

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experience.
And then how I didn't normally

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feel that level of safe and love
love.

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And that led me to wanting to
learn more.

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So I went and traveled the
world.

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I've done a bunch of worked with
a lot of different types of

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practitioners and their and
their use of psychedelics and

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I've studied, I got a master's
in psychology and neuroscience

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focused on psychedelic medicine
and it's been quite, quite the

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journey now.
What's the difference between

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tripping and and healing?
I love that question.

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What is it?
So, so I think when I think when

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we're getting into kind of just
common language when people talk

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about tripping, I think that is
the, I think that is a way of,

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of shorthand of describing being
in a non ordinary sense of sense

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of consciousness.
So that can be tripping.

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I'm at a concert and I'm taking
some LSD and, and I'm tripping

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at the concert.
Great.

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OK, that's a good use of the
word.

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Or I guess you could say I'm in
a ceremony or I'm in a clinical

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setting and I'm taking mushrooms
as part of a clinical trial or,

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or, or, or MDMA as part of a
clinical trial.

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And during that process I am
tripping.

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So I don't, I don't think that
is I don't think the word is

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that important.
So it's the non ordinary state

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of consciousness is is what what
matters.

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You're out there.
Can you explain exactly how

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psychedelics can serve as tools
for healing for mental health

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issues and challenges like
anxiety, depression, PTSD?

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Yeah, I love that especially, I
mean especially for men.

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I think our culture, let me try
it this way.

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Our culture tells us we have to
provide and we, I know I spent a

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lot of, spent a lot of time and
spend a lot of time thinking

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about how am I going to provide
for my family.

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And that my number one job was
to go out there and generate

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resources and bring those back
to the home so the kids can have

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school and food and all that
good stuff.

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And there wasn't really a lot of
time for relationship.

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It was I'd get up, I'd go to
work, come home, we'd have

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dinner, I might do some more
work, we'd watch a show, we'd go

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to bed.
It's kind of typical day.

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I think psychedelics can break
that repetitive thinking pattern

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and can allow parts of the brain
that don't normally communicate

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to communicate again.
And when that happens, when you

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start breaking repetitive
patterns, well, we can look at

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things and say, oh wow, I don't
have to think about my

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relationship or my job or my
myself the way I've been

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thinking about it.
I can think about this other,

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other way and when that starts
happening, I and, and I've seen

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many other people start to
become, remember who we are and

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to remember how powerful we are
and to remember how loved we are

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and to remember how supported we
are and that that remembrance

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is, is really incredibly
powerful.

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So I, I, I tell people all the
time, it's like it's not a cure

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for anything.
They are a catalyst.

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They're a catalyst for
understanding, for awakening,

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for insight, for awareness, and
then how that manifests in each

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individual's life depends on
what they're, what they're

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working on, and where they are
in their journey.

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OK, I'm, I'm really glad you
said that, because sometimes

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the, the hype for psychedelics
in as as treatment makes it seem

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like it's a magic bullet, like,
oh, take these and you'll never

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be depressed again.
And but you're, you know, again,

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it's a catalyst.
It's a way into something that's

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been perhaps resistant to other
treatments.

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Is that is that accurate?
Yeah, it's a way into yourself

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as how I would describe it, It
it doesn't so, so, so many

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things that we do in Western
culture, if we take the

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antidepressants or anti anxiety
medicine, it's it's really

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numbing the pain.
And psychedelics don't, they

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don't numb it.
They actually bring it closer to

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us where we can see it, we can
understand it.

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And then we can potentially make
more meaning from whatever it is

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that that caused that, that
hurt, that pain, that that that

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scar in US, the emotional scar.
Yeah, it's it's incredible for

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doing that.
And that biologically lighting

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up our brains.
It's, it's like when we're kids,

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our our brains ran everywhere.
And then at some point as we

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were developing, as our neural
pathways got pruned, it's like

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someone picked us up off the
playground and stuck us on a

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treadmill, but nobody told us.
So now we're running on our

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treadmill, literally thinking
the same way over and over and

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over.
The psychedelics can put us back

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on that playground and, and our
minds can run free.

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And that can be incredibly
powerful for things like

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creativity, for problem solving
and for how are we connected to

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everybody?
How that childlike wonder that

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we used to have when we
approached life, the the awe can

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come back.
And then the practice is how do

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we keep that remembrance in
everyday life when we're not

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using psychedelics when we come
to these conversations, Andy,

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and how do we how do we bring
that presence to, to everything?

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Do you have a preferred
psychedelic tool or substance or

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is it anything you can find will
will work?

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I think I this is tricky.
So if you're asking me

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personally, I I'd rather I like
different molecules for

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different things.
So I think some of the heart

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openers like MDA or Sassafras or
MDMA are really powerful for,

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for, for wanting to feel love
and to, to have just the heart

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crack open.
So we're seeing a lot of work

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with that particular tool with
with veterans, with first

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responders, with victims of
sexual assault, with people who

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have forgotten that they're
capable of receiving and giving

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love without the pain.
So I think that tool is really

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pretty is is incredible.
Just as a quick side note on

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that, they gave people with
treatment resistant post

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traumatic stress disorder, 3
sessions of MDMA.

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So picture veterans, first
responders, victims of sexual

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assault where nothing has
worked.

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They've tried every type of
pharmacological solution.

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They've tried all to talk
therapies.

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They gave them three sessions of
MDMA with some coaching or

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therapy before and after and
over 70% no longer qualified as

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having a PTSD diagnosis.
So it's a pretty tremendous,

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tremendous tool.
The other tool I like, I love

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psilocybin.
The, the, the, the, the active

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ingredient, those magic
mushrooms you were talking about

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a minute ago.
I think in terms of feeling

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connected to everything, to
remembering that I am nature.

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I'm not separate and apart from
nature to remember that the the

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trees and the birds and the
animals are all here supporting

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our lives.
That's pretty.

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It's pretty powerful medicine
for that tool.

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And we're seeing incredible
studies with psilocybin on

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things like end of life to
stress where they've given it

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both at NYU, Johns Hopkins,
University of California, San

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Francisco.
They've given it to people with

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terminal cancer diagnosis and
over 80% have a reduction in

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depression, anxiety and
hopelessness.

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And then they've done follow up
studies with those still alive 4

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1/2 years later and it's like
70% are still feeling the

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effects of one dose.
So that's a pretty powerful

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tool.
I think 5 MEODMT is one that's

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not talked about that often.
It's all otherwise known as

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Bufo.
It's the venom of the Bufo

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ovarius toad.
And in that one, it's really and

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what's called a non duality
where you, there's no you,

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there's no time, there's no
space, there's just kind of

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energy.
And I think having that for me,

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that connection with, with just
the vibration of the world is a

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a reminder of what could be
beyond this physical body that I

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am, that I have it now.
So I'd like that medicine for

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that.
But there's, I mean, Ayahuasca's

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we have, I've been, I was in
spent a lot of time this past

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year with veterans working with
ayahuasca.

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If I had a, a child with a, with
an opioid challenge, I would I

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would be getting them to an
ibogaine clinic.

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So just different, different
medicines for different

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purposes.
Yeah, my Ayawasa experience

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really brought out that non
duality and I had heard, you

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know, we're we're we're
operating on multiple, not

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platforms, multiple levels of
existence, you know, multiple

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fields all the time.
And why my Waska experience are

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like, Oh my God, I'm aware of
being on like a dozen different

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levels of existence right now
and that that was quite amazing.

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And as as and again, has stuck
with me from that that single

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experience and.
That was 2011, yeah.

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And even. 14 years, yeah, it's a
long time.

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Yeah, and the.
Can you still see it in your

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head?
Can you still go back?

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There, if I, yeah, if I close my
eyes, if I, yeah, if I like I, I

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can feel like the vine coming
through me and that's how it

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first came into me and yeah, now
I can.

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Still.
Some of the visuals were like

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one plane of existence was it
looked like Avatar, just super

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beyond 3D and, you know, beyond
colors.

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And at one point I was in my
like a Hall of Fame.

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Every pet I had ever owned or
come across, like every animal

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was on this other plane.
And yeah, it was just amazing.

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And my psilocybin experiences
were always I just laughed.

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I just laughed and laughed and I
tended to be a depressed,

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pessimistic kid.
So that's why I loved mushrooms.

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Like if yeah, I could easily if
if they were really available, I

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would have done them a lot more
probably.

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But and then you talk about the
connecting with all the nature

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00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,680
by happenstance or coincidence
or guidance.

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Most of my mushroom use was
camping, going outside and and

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don't and looking at the stars
all night and and you know,

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forgetting about all.
Friends.

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00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,240
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was never, never alone.

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It was always with a group of
friends doing it all together.

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And yeah.
So that community that, that

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oneness, it was all there even
when I just thought I was, you

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know, messing around, didn't
have some high intention behind

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it.
So.

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00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,360
Yeah, I love that you're saying
that, Andy, 'cause I I think

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that is something that that's
often misconstrued, that there's

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00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,920
almost a psychedelic
exceptionalism that OK, if you

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00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,160
don't, if you don't come into
this and you have every,

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00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,040
everything exactly right and the
exactly right intention that

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00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,040
you've done something wrong.
And that is not true.

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00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,120
There are so many different ways
that people meet these medicines

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00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:00,240
and start forming a
relationship.

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So you started forming a
relationship as a as a teenager

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00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,800
with this, with this medicine
and that was the way you

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accessed it.
And it was beautiful and it was

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00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,240
appropriate at the time.
And now at this stage in life,

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wanting kind of best practices
'cause you're at just a

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00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,800
different phase.
Well, now we can talk about, OK,

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well source set and setting, how
do we really watch those three

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things so that you have the best
probability of a of a positive

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outcome from this experience?
Right, I assume, correct me if

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00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,520
I'm wrong, that you're not
advocating go buy some

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00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,080
psychedelics, take them loan at
home and see what happens It

256
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,360
it's so so tell me about the
therapeutic use.

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Yeah.
So, so I'm, I'm not advocating

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for that.
I don't think that is the best

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00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:51,680
and I don't think that's the,
that is the way to do this with

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the best probability of, of, of
a good outcome.

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00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,480
I think that there are three
ways though, that people access

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00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,720
psychedelics in America.
So some do like, some believe in

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00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,040
a, a medical model.
So right now the only option on

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a medical model is either to go
to a ketamine clinic or or by

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00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:13,640
ketamine somehow from a, from a
medical provider or to get in

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the clinical trial for
psilocybin, MDMALSD, ayahuasca,

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00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,760
DMT.
That's really it in the States.

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But for some people, they want
to have a diagnosis, they want

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to work with a clinician, they
want to have kind of here is my

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00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,720
scores before and here are my
scores after, OK.

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They want a scientific approach.
That's beautiful.

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Go for it.
And we, I hope that MDMA is a

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00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,960
tool in the medical professional
toolbox in the next few years.

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I hope psilocybin is a tool for
them.

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The second way people access
these, these medicines are

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religious.
There's somewhere between 200

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00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,680
and 1000 psychedelic churches in
America.

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I don't.
My guess is 5600, but that's

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that's for that.
Those are for the most part

280
00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,640
people who are practicing using
these tools as they've been used

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00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,440
for thousands of years.
It's people who believe I don't

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00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,280
need a diagnosis to want to
explore my consciousness.

283
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,320
I don't need a diagnosis to want
to be closer to source.

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However that is I define it.
And these tools are pretty

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00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,600
reliable tools for those types
of experiences.

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00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,760
So without making medical
claims, these spiritual groups

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00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,520
offer ceremonial psychedelics.
And I think that's, that's

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00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,640
beautiful and important and it's
a, it's a, a religious freedom

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00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,120
perspective and it's something
that we need to, I, I pay no

290
00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:34,840
attention to this before this
world.

291
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:36,880
And then we have like
decriminalization.

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00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,600
We have these groups, all of the
chapters all over the country.

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00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,520
And I think Massachusetts just
actually worked with almost had

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00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,240
a couple different things.
But decrim, the idea behind

295
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,600
decrim nature starts with no
adult to tell another adult that

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00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:49,960
they can't put nature in their
body.

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00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,200
OK, I get that it's very
libertarian, but it also goes a

298
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,200
step further.
And they say it's not fair that

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00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,440
those of us who have resources,
who have money can access all

300
00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,000
these psychedelics and all these
tools and all this healing.

301
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,120
And those that don't have money
aren't allowed to grow for free

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00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,240
mushrooms in their in their
closet or consume for very

303
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,120
little money these things.
So I think it is an important

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00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,160
path and I think it's one that
we're seeing city after city

305
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,920
decriminalizing psychedelics for
a reason and that then fairness

306
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,000
is a big piece of that.
But yeah, if I had my if you

307
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:33,040
were my brother asking me how
should I start this process?

308
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,000
Let's say, you know, if you're
paying attention to source,

309
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,240
where did your medicine come
from?

310
00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,240
You're set and you're setting.
Regardless of whether it's a

311
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:43,760
medical, a spiritual and
underground therapist, a retreat

312
00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:49,280
to Jamaica or Costa Rica or Peru
or the Netherlands, you still

313
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,880
have to ask the exact same
questions to find the place

314
00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:56,400
that's right for you.
So I, I guess I thought states

315
00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,440
that had decriminalized meant
there was a thriving industry

316
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,200
of, of clinics and support for
doing this so that it just, it's

317
00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:04,800
just, you no longer get arrested
for having it.

318
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,079
That's that's the extent of it.
So separate into two things, we

319
00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:10,319
have two states that have
actually legalized.

320
00:17:10,319 --> 00:17:13,160
So we have the state of Oregon,
which had gone through a process

321
00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:16,800
of ballot initiative and they
actually have legal psychedelic

322
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:21,079
treatment centers where people
can adults can go and have

323
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:23,800
treatment.
Colorado's right behind them.

324
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,839
Ballot initiative.
They're going to have that soon.

325
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,400
Many other cities have
decriminalized, which means it's

326
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,080
just not, it's the lowest
priority for law enforcement.

327
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,280
Detroit, Ann Arbor, I think a
couple cities in Massachusetts,

328
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:39,400
yeah, there's a bunch of them.
So it's, it's not, there's no

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00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,680
industry.
It's still that's part of the,

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00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,520
the part of the challenge I see
is that when we are not talking

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00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:49,760
as adults about this, when we're
not having a, a true marketplace

332
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,600
that we can look at and talk
about, these things are pushed

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00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:54,640
underground.
When these are pushed

334
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,880
underground, there are
possibilities of profit motive

335
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,960
leading to contamination and
other things that doesn't keep

336
00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,800
us as safe as, as we as I would
want to be.

337
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,040
So I'm, I'm definitely a fan of
like, how do we get these into a

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00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,240
public marketplace with open
communications between medical

339
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,600
professionals, spiritual leaders
and consumers like us?

340
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,760
And in a therapeutic environment
is, is the, is the notion to be

341
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,160
micro dosing just taking the
bare minimum substance to have

342
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,840
an experience or is it take
whatever you feel like?

343
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,480
It's a little bit of both.
I think most and mostly in the

344
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,960
therapeutic environment, people
are doing larger doses.

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00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,120
I mean that they're going in to
do this with a a professional

346
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,000
and having a professional there
while doing a a larger dose is

347
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,320
something that is a best
practice micro dosing because

348
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,520
we're when you're micro dosing,
we're talking about a tenth to a

349
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:50,760
20th of a dose.
So it's either sub perceptual.

350
00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,320
You really can't even feel it.
Certainly it's sub intoxicating

351
00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:58,520
if it's a micro dose.
So the need to have to be with

352
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,280
someone on a micro dose is is
not really there.

353
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,040
It's it's macro dose when you
want somebody or or two people

354
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,160
in the room with you to make
sure that you're safe.

355
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,800
So you've written three books on
the subject.

356
00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,240
The most recent is The Veterans
Guide to Psychedelics.

357
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,160
What made what inspired you to
focus on veterans?

358
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,280
I had, I had come up with a
preparation and integration

359
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,880
journal and I'd given it away to
it to a number of people,

360
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,160
including some veterans.
And one of the veterans was at a

361
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,800
retreat in a center in Oregon
where the CEO of this project

362
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,440
called Heroic Hearts Project was
there and saw the journal.

363
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,120
And he ended up calling me up
and saying, hey, can we do a, a

364
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:42,600
bigger version of this for
veterans where we'll incorporate

365
00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,600
stories and we'll have, we'll
have best practices so they can

366
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,720
make an informed decision of
whether they even want to

367
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,760
participate in, in our programs
or not.

368
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:56,280
So we spent about a year talking
to people in his organization, a

369
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,520
guy named Jared Reinhardt as
their, their head of

370
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:01,400
integration, spent some time
with him, spent some time with

371
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,760
some veterans in in preparation
integration and actually doing

372
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,720
ayahuasca ceremonies.
It is a is such, again, such a

373
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:14,040
powerful tool for that
population where in many cases

374
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,640
they've they've come from
distressed childhoods.

375
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,520
They've had really hard
upbringings that led them in the

376
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,160
first place to join the
military.

377
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,520
And then on top of that, then
they they're, they're.

378
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,120
Traumas in many cases were
compounded by the things that

379
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:33,200
they were doing and, and, and
how it was delivered to them in

380
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:38,000
that military experience.
And ayahuasca is a is a powerful

381
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:39,720
tool.
But that book the the Veterans

382
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,760
Guide to Psychedelics goes not
just it doesn't just talk about

383
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,040
ayahuasca, it talks about all
the different psychedelics that

384
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,480
are being used.
So people who are working again,

385
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,720
veterans working with with
ketamine providers or psilocybin

386
00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,920
ceremonies or ayahuasca, this
book works for any of those

387
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,560
settings.
When you talk about taking some

388
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,560
sort of ancient healing rituals
and bring it into a modern

389
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:08,120
setting, is there any concern
that we don't have that strong

390
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:11,720
spiritual foundation of that
ancient society to get the best

391
00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,440
from our from our efforts?
It's it's a huge concern, Andy.

392
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,280
So, so, so yeah, I mean, when
when people take when, when

393
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,720
someone who's from Peru and from
a from an indigenous culture

394
00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:27,160
takes ayahuasca and they finish
the ayahuasca experience,

395
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,760
they're in this community that
understands just differently and

396
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,560
is very is supportive in a
different way than we are up

397
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,960
here in in Western society.
So we have that we've come up

398
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,560
with this term called
integration and integration is

399
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,840
what do we as North American, as
Westerners do following

400
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,240
psychedelics to 1st unpack what
the hell did we see?

401
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,520
And maybe we don't have a
spiritual background which on

402
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,320
how to organize our thoughts or
think about these things.

403
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,120
So having someone unpack this
with is is super helpful.

404
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,000
But then also it's strongly
having some type of community to

405
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,200
move into is something that's
strongly recommended.

406
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,280
So whether that's a, it's a yoga
community or in there or, or

407
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,960
there's, there's a, there's a
group called Lagari, which is

408
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,040
Christians and psychedelics.
There's a group called Shepha,

409
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,840
which is Jews and psychedelics.
It doesn't make a difference.

410
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:23,800
But having a community around
you to support you is, is, is

411
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:29,600
hugely beneficial as we move
into how do we do this as a

412
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,720
practice?
How do we bring our presence and

413
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,240
our awareness into everyday
conversations?

414
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,920
And how do we start living the
life that we remembered were

415
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,800
capable of when we were on the
medicine?

416
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,280
You you've said I don't believe
everyone should take

417
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,600
psychedelics, but I do believe
that psychedelics are for

418
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:49,160
everyone.
So could you expand on perhaps

419
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,040
who shouldn't take them?
Like, yeah.

420
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,160
I love that.
Yeah, there's definitely, I

421
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,120
mean, I, I so the book the the,
the my first book was called

422
00:22:56,120 --> 00:22:59,280
Psychedelics for Everyone.
And that was a a controversial

423
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,880
title and, and it was not meant
that everyone's taking

424
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,600
psychedelics, but the there are
certain people who have either

425
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:10,720
family history or are taking a
prescription or a supplement

426
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,240
that might be a contraindication
with a psychedelic that they

427
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,600
need to be careful.
So I tell people a couple

428
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,080
things.
First, take responsibility for

429
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,480
your own medical screening.
So go to either Spirit

430
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:27,160
pharmacist.com or Doctor Emily
Kulpa KUL pa.com and pay the

431
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:31,640
couple $100 to have them look at
your screening and say, OK, if

432
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,680
you're thinking about this
substance versus that substance,

433
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:36,600
you might have to do this or
that.

434
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,280
So as an example, if you're on
an antidepressant, you can take

435
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,320
ketamine and you probably can
take psilocybin and have a full

436
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,520
effect, but not everybody, most
people.

437
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:51,800
But you really can't take
ayahuasca, you really can't take

438
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,640
MDMA.
So it's that type of

439
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,040
contraindication that the
medical screenings are looking

440
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,600
for.
If you are schizophrenic and you

441
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,520
don't have a a firm grasp of
this consensus reality that we

442
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,760
are living in, that's probably
not a good idea to to move into

443
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,000
a psychedelic and non ordinary
state of consciousness.

444
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:18,720
If you are young 18/19/2025 and
your parents or your brother's

445
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:23,080
sister are schizophrenic, it's
probably not a good time to be

446
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,120
experimenting with this type of
this type of tool.

447
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:31,840
But if you're 50 and your mom's
schizophrenic and you've never

448
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,320
had any indication that you you
have propensity towards

449
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,840
schizophrenia, it's, it's much
less risky to do it then.

450
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,280
So I, I tell people all the
time, look, psychedelics safe is

451
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,840
not the right word.
They are relatively risk reduced

452
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,000
compared to a lot of medicines
that we look at and take

453
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,200
everyday.
We have over 400 people a year

454
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,760
who die from acetaminophen
overdoses in our country.

455
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,840
I think there's only been three
known cases of people who've

456
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,120
ever died from psilocybin.
So it's not that they are safe.

457
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:10,240
It's at the risk is reduced.
But you should really know what

458
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,440
the risks are.
There are people, not very many,

459
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,000
who have persistent
hallucinations after

460
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,440
psychedelics.
There are people who have some

461
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,520
level of incapacity for a while,
and again, it's not a large

462
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,640
percentage, but it's worth
talking about and making sure

463
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,280
that, OK, I'm at a point where
I'm willing to take that risk.

464
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,320
In your travels and studies,
have you come across holotropic

465
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,960
breathwork?
Of course.

466
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,400
Yeah, a huge fan of that.
Have you?

467
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,840
Yeah, I've done that probably a
dozen times.

468
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:39,760
Yeah.
What do you think?

469
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,680
And I love it.
And what, what, what especially

470
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,800
I love and marvel at is that you
you don't need another

471
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,960
substance.
Like it's just your own

472
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:49,520
breathing.
And I like the first time I did

473
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,720
it, I was like, well, if this
was taught in high schools, drug

474
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:53,880
use would just plummet.
And it's like, oh, for free.

475
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,480
I can, you know, have this
because my first experience with

476
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,560
breath work was really a
stereotypical acid trip.

477
00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:03,520
Like I thought I was smelling
colors and, you know, tasting

478
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,520
physical objects and just
showing through the universe,

479
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,200
having the time of my life.
And then during this I would I

480
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,560
kept cycling from like so high
and life is amazing.

481
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,120
And then I remember that I tried
to end my life and I would

482
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,000
plummet and be sobbing and but
it was the first step to my

483
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,600
really own healing and seeing
that my surviving multiple

484
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,440
attempts, suicide attempts was
me surviving attempted murder.

485
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:31,440
And so I really like had this
morning experience and when it

486
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,480
all ended, I, I wrote letters of
apology to my mom, to my dad and

487
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,760
to myself for the pain I'd put
people through.

488
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,360
It was just, it gave me a whole
new perspective on it.

489
00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:42,720
But yeah, it like I didn't want
it to end.

490
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,440
I, I, I went for almost 3 hours.
I was in the ballroom with

491
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:46,800
people.
Didn't, I was at, it was my

492
00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,080
first personal growth event at
all.

493
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,600
It was a week long meditation
retreat.

494
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,920
One night we did this breath
work, which I never heard of,

495
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,960
loved the music, loved the, the
sitting with people.

496
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,840
I just loved everything about
it.

497
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,600
And then since then, I've had
the opportunity to breathe twice

498
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:07,240
with yeah, he, he spooned my
wife at one point.

499
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,080
That's amazing.
Yeah, yeah, it's very cool.

500
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,320
He has been I mean he was such a
leader in LSD research and then

501
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,840
to really pioneer the Tropic
breath work, bring it to the

502
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,760
masses and his so so many good
things.

503
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,720
But sticking with us from and I
I think I, I think I, I don't

504
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,080
think I know I underestimated
breath work.

505
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,320
I was like, OK, I've done now
all these different

506
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,120
psychedelics.
I'm sure that breath work is not

507
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:39,000
going to be able to send me into
that level of a of a non

508
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,720
ordinary state.
And I was just wrong.

509
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:46,240
I was absolutely floored so much
so that I remember one point on

510
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,160
the on the breath work thinking
how do I stop?

511
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,320
Like how do I get off this
train?

512
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,920
Yeah, it's a serious, serious
alternative or, or compliment

513
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:01,040
for people who who are like, OK,
I don't want to try XYZ

514
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,120
psychedelic, but I am willing to
try breath work first or, or as

515
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:05,000
a compliment.
Great.

516
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,760
And just like you can hurt
yourself like it again, nothing

517
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,720
is safe.
There's risk to breath work,

518
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,520
there's risk to meditation,
there's risk to psychedelics,

519
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,920
there's risk, there's risk to
driving in the car.

520
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,080
So we have to choose what level
of risk we're willing to take.

521
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,280
So is is there anything that
makes you point someone to

522
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,880
breathwork or to psychedelics or
to just experiment with both,

523
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,280
see what works best for you?
What?

524
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:31,360
What do you what do you think
there?

525
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:36,800
It's I try not to give specific
directions to anybody about what

526
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,840
they should or should not do.
What I tried to is answer their

527
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,000
questions of So if someone says,
look, I've been, I have been

528
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,960
sober for a long time.
My recovery is super important

529
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,160
to me.
I'm not sure I really want to

530
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,760
take any substance whatsoever.
Is there anything I can do?

531
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,120
Absolutely.
Have you thought about breath

532
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,840
work?
So that's that's kind of an easy

533
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,840
direction there.
But people say I'm not willing

534
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,760
to do anything illegal period.
OK, well, ketamine or breath

535
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,000
work are kind of your two
options when I meet people like

536
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,040
I want to feel it's got to be
hard and intense.

537
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,000
OK, but you might like ayahuasca
might be the one you're looking

538
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,320
for.
So I try it's, it just really

539
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,520
depends on who, who is asking
the question and what their

540
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,680
background is and what are they
worried about.

541
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,840
And then I guess I also believe,
and I'm curious if you feel this

542
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:33,680
way that these medicines you
kind of know, like if you're

543
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,360
actually, what if you've been
listening to this podcast for 30

544
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,040
minutes and you're still
listening, you know, you won't

545
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,760
you're, you're listening for a
reason.

546
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:44,760
What is it?
What are you looking for?

547
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:50,200
What permission do you feel like
you need to receive to go do

548
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:51,920
whatever it is you're thinking
about doing?

549
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,200
And I feel like each each of
these, like at some point I

550
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,240
really keep hearing mushrooms.
Maybe I should go try some

551
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,200
mushrooms.
OK, great, go do that.

552
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,880
Keep hearing about ayahuasca.
Great, go try that.

553
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,400
Are there any specific areas of
psychedelic research that you're

554
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:08,600
most excited about?
Like what?

555
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,200
What do you see on the horizon?
To your point earlier, there's

556
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,000
so much media hype.
What do you believe it's like?

557
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:19,000
Oh, the psychos are the next big
cure for this, that and the

558
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,200
other thing.
But what I didn't realize is

559
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:26,160
when we think about how do
repetitive thinking patterns

560
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,520
manifest in our lives?
Well, for some people it

561
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,960
manifests as depression, where I
get into catastrophizing these

562
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,080
things.
I get into these loops of how

563
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,040
bad my life is and I can't see
past that.

564
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,800
OK, great.
Others, it's anxiety I'm just

565
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,560
constantly worried about.
I'm afraid of of the way I

566
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,520
interact with the world.
For some people that might mean

567
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,480
I eat too much.
For others it might mean sex or

568
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:53,800
porn.
For others it might mean

569
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:55,360
gambling.
For others it might mean

570
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,320
workaholism.
For others, it might mean an an

571
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,840
eating disorder.
So when we think about breaking

572
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:07,080
repetitive thinking patterns, I
can now understand how why

573
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,880
they're saying, well,
psychedelics might be the next

574
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,920
best thing for, for quitting
smoking.

575
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,680
OK, 'cause I didn't think of it
before as it's a manifestation

576
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,640
of a repetitive thinking pattern
that if we could break it, we

577
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,000
might be able to stop that
cycle.

578
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,760
I guess I if personally, I love
the end of life work being done

579
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,640
with psychedelics, both for the
people dying and for the people

580
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,160
witnessing the death.
That we as families can have

581
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,760
conversations that need to be
had before somebody transitions

582
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,000
or dies.
That we can all understand that

583
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,760
we are spiritual creatures
having a human experience.

584
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,200
So I love that there's a phase
two trial happening up in

585
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,640
Baltimore right now with where
they're giving MDMA not just to

586
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,520
the person with cancer, but to
one loved one.

587
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,160
But we've been doing that in the
ceremonial space for a long

588
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,880
time.
So I love that that's catching

589
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,200
up.
I love the work with, with

590
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,600
treatment resistant PTSD because
it's so easy for everyone to

591
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,920
understand, especially when it
comes to veterans and sexual

592
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,640
assault and 1st responders.
Oh yeah, we owe them something

593
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,680
and nothing's working.
Sorry.

594
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,480
When, when for those that where
it doesn't work, we need to give

595
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,280
them another option.
OK, I can understand this.

596
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,800
So I think if I had to pick two
areas, those would be the two

597
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,200
I'm most excited about.
And I mean, I don't know,

598
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,320
there's also, I mean, there's a
new study of psychedelics and

599
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,120
autism.
How cool is that?

600
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,400
When we think about the
repetitive thinking patterns of

601
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,160
autism and being able to whether
it's feeling emotion or whether

602
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,520
it's understanding how to read a
room or whether it's slow down

603
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,840
and process differently, it's
it's beautiful work.

604
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:50,160
To to get back to integration.
If if someone has a first

605
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,240
experience with psychedelics and
they feel some sort of benefit,

606
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,000
something changes, they they
have new realizations and

607
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,000
insights, Is there a most common
path?

608
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,480
Do is there a prescribed number
of usages or is it just

609
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,920
journaling and integration,
being in a community that can

610
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,200
share the experience?
Like what?

611
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,400
What helps the benefits keep
going?

612
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,720
So a couple things here.
I mean, biologically when we

613
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,840
take a psychedelic, we enter
into a state of neuroplasticity

614
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,840
that lasts for about 30 days.
So in that time period, our

615
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,160
brain is more malleable, we're
able to learn faster.

616
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,600
So like in in the Veteran's
Guide to Psychedelics, in my

617
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,920
Beyond the Trip journal, we
include a 30 day gratitude

618
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,560
journal where people can help
train their mind on the positive

619
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:39,480
in a state when your mind is has
a biological boost to help kind

620
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,640
of reframe things.
There are exercises each week in

621
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,560
those journals where it asks a
series of questions and a series

622
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,360
of prompts that helps us.
Let's let's think about the

623
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,240
past.
Let's let's pay attention to the

624
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,680
new sensations we're feeling.
Let's dream a little bit about

625
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:58,840
the future and how do we align
our actions in work and in

626
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,520
family and in personal with
whatever those insights were.

627
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,200
And then it becomes very
personal for for some people on

628
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:11,639
ketamine as an example, again,
legal, psychedelic, legal, close

629
00:34:11,639 --> 00:34:14,199
enough to psychedelic.
Many places are going to have

630
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:19,080
them do like 6 doses in four
weeks or a lot of doses and then

631
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,920
they're going to spread them
out.

632
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,360
And then maybe you do you do
them every few months or every

633
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,400
few weeks after that.
When it comes to psilocybin,

634
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,719
Iowa is another example.
Maybe it's once in a life or

635
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,800
once in a year, but for others
it's once a quarter.

636
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,760
So it's really becomes personal
on how you want to interact with

637
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,760
that medicine and to and where
you want to, how you want to use

638
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,920
it to help and whatever it is
that you're trying to achieve.

639
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,520
I'll.
Never forget my my guide in Peru

640
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,639
growing up in that society said
at age 13, they all had to take

641
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:56,960
their ayahuasca.
And he didn't look forward to

642
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,520
it, didn't like it.
Can't believe Americans are

643
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:00,920
coming down trying to do this
thing.

644
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,480
So it was really interesting to
get that that, you know, other

645
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,360
perspective.
But you know, I think I've heard

646
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,080
of people combining weeks of
Ayawaska use and the next day

647
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:12,760
breath work and keep
alternating.

648
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,120
Can you?
Can there be too much?

649
00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:18,320
Of course, yeah, there can
definitely be too much.

650
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,360
I'm ketamine there.
Ketamine, when not in a medical

651
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,800
setting, has had many people get
addicted.

652
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,840
So that's something that you
have to be very, very careful

653
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,680
of.
Most psychedelics, ayahuasca,

654
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,200
psilocybin and LSD are really
non addictive, anti addictive.

655
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,200
The body, your body just doesn't
really allow yourself to get

656
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,480
addicted.
But ketamine is something to be

657
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:43,760
careful of.
I think with anything as humans,

658
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,720
we have the, the biological
addiction, we have the

659
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:49,920
behavioral component.
And one of the questions that we

660
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,840
talk a lot about for people who
are coming back multiple times

661
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,520
is OK, are you, are you
processing?

662
00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:00,160
Are you just chasing the thrill
or are you doing whatever work

663
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,320
that, that you want to do?
And again, it's not up to me to

664
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,840
tell you what you're doing or,
or to make a judgement on it.

665
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:08,840
Just to ask the question.
I think when I think it's super

666
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:11,240
effective and I'll use ayahuasca
with the, with the veterans as

667
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:15,320
an example, a typical protocol
is you go down for five nights

668
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,080
and you'll do ayahuasca for
three of them.

669
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:23,000
That's pretty normal.
With many of the ceremonies that

670
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,160
I participate in, it's it's two
or three nights in a row or two

671
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,720
or three days in a row of
whatever sacrament they're

672
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:34,440
serving.
I think that's for the most part

673
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,800
pretty helpful because it takes
the pressure off.

674
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,440
I think a lot of people,
especially because some of these

675
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:42,760
places are so expensive.
A lot of people come in, it's

676
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:44,600
like, oh, I've got to have this
great big experience.

677
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,080
It's got to be everything.
It's got to be in the first

678
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:46,960
time.
It's got to be great.

679
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,840
It's a lot of pressure.
If you have 3, it's like maybe

680
00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:52,400
the first one's going to be
great.

681
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,120
Maybe it's not.
It's OK, let's try again.

682
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,080
So I think having two or three
for for people are coming into

683
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:02,400
this new to the practice that's
that would be a recommendation

684
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,000
if if as a starting point.
Yeah, no, that's a good point.

685
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,720
I hadn't thought of the
performance anxiety and

686
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:11,840
expectations of yeah, I've
traveled all this way, flying

687
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,360
too many countries, spending
$1000.

688
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,240
I better have the magical
experience.

689
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,440
And yeah, you don't want to.
You don't want to force or fake

690
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,920
it or anything like that.
Yeah, or even I went to Oregon

691
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,240
and spent $3000.
I mean, it's, it can be

692
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:26,400
expensive, which is also where
the churches are typically not,

693
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,760
not anywhere near the pricing of
the treatment centers.

694
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,240
The treatment centers aren't as
expensive as the retreats.

695
00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:33,360
It's it there's, they're
different tiers.

696
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,960
And I say that and if I hear
these clinics and these

697
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,160
underground treatment centers
charging $10,000.

698
00:37:41,720 --> 00:37:45,040
So there's a wide variety in
cost.

699
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,400
Besides psychedelics or possibly
in addition to them, is there

700
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,960
anything you've come across in
in your experience, your

701
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:56,840
studies, seeing people that that
you would would recommend as as

702
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,280
something to to try to explore?
I think, Andy, a lot of the

703
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,880
stuff that you do are the things
that I'd recommend.

704
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:08,960
I mean, we, we are for any of us
who use psychedelics, it's even

705
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,120
if it's once a month, it's still
there's 30 days of non

706
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,840
psychedelics for every day of
psychedelic.

707
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,760
And most people it's maybe once
a quarter, once a year, once a

708
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,400
life.
So what do you do in all those

709
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,280
other days?
And I think for me, psychedelics

710
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,520
opened me up to what these other
things could be.

711
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,400
It opened me up to the
possibility of meditation, of

712
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:34,080
breath work, of of awareness
practices, of journaling in a

713
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,760
way that was a deeper type of
journal.

714
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:40,960
So I recommend getting out in
nature, not spending every

715
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,160
moment doing doing this.
It it helps change our

716
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,640
priorities.
And how do we think about those

717
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,520
priorities?
So all of those awareness

718
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,600
practices, those mindfulness
practices are really helpful.

719
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,800
Being in community is really
helpful.

720
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,680
And, and certainly all those
things can be done without ever

721
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,280
touching a psychedelic as well.
You had mentioned Heroic Heart

722
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:03,200
early.
I want to give you a chance to

723
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,000
expand on that and how your book
is tied to them.

724
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,280
Yeah, so Heroic Hearts Project
is one of the the larger veteran

725
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,280
organizations that send veterans
down to Central and South

726
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,800
America and Oregon where they
can access legal psychedelics.

727
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,880
It's an amazing organization.
They send hundreds and hundreds

728
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,480
of of veterans down every year.
So this book, the the Veterans

729
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,720
Guide to Psychedelics, 100% of
the proceeds go to them.

730
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:31,480
Because if you're if you are a
veteran and you go to the Heroic

731
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,040
Hearts Project website and you
sign up for a program and you

732
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,200
can't, you're going to you're
going to get a scholarship to go

733
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,920
on these programs.
Now, if you can afford it

734
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:41,520
yourself, they're going to ask
that you kind of give the money

735
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,360
to a someone else so that they
can go.

736
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,840
But they do an amazing job.
They give the veterans 3

737
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,760
sessions in advance of group
therapy, 3 sessions of

738
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:55,320
individual coaching, three, they
take them down to the to the, to

739
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,000
the ceremony with whether it's
the Shipibo or some other group,

740
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,320
and then three sessions a group
and individual afterwards.

741
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,920
So it's a lot of support and
they're just, they're just

742
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,480
incredible.
Mission Within is another

743
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,080
organization that's doing good
work in this space, and Vets is

744
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:12,920
1/3 and there's a bunch of these
groups that are stepping up.

745
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:16,800
And stepping in right now where
the V as kind of falling short.

746
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:18,800
And it's not that they're
well-intentioned.

747
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,240
They they are.
They just haven't gotten to here

748
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,800
yet.
But yeah, I love heroic hearts

749
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,000
project.
Jesse Gould is the Ceceo.

750
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,840
They do amazing, amazing work.
They just and if if you're

751
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,720
interested in them, you type in
heroic Hearts project 60

752
00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:35,520
minutes.
There's just a big special this

753
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,160
past Sunday on 60 minutes on
them.

754
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,160
Cool.
Since this is real, men feel I

755
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,680
always ask this one question.
What is one thing you wish more

756
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:48,440
men knew?
I'd love that question.

757
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,720
I, I think, I think that we live
in an abundant world.

758
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,240
And what I mean by that, Andy,
is I grew up being told that

759
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,400
there's not enough.
I've got to take what's mine.

760
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,400
I've got to work hard, I've got
to provide.

761
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,600
And that led to competition and
in high school and college and

762
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,480
afterwards, it led to behaviors
that were, that were more

763
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,240
selfish.
It led to behaviors that kept me

764
00:41:15,240 --> 00:41:20,560
distant from myself and from my
family and, and from my friends.

765
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,960
And realizing that for me
realizing, Oh my gosh, what

766
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,280
we've lived the best time ever
to be alive.

767
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,200
There's so much support out
there.

768
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,080
There's plenty out there for
everybody.

769
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:33,920
We can feed the world, we can
house the world.

770
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,160
These, these problems that we
that are told to us by our

771
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,840
culture, by our news, just not
true.

772
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:44,800
And, and there's plenty, plenty
of things to work on in the

773
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,440
world as well.
But I, I can live and and have

774
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,360
an abundant attitude towards
life.

775
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:57,520
And by doing that, I can have
deeper, deeper relationships and

776
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,040
feel more everyday.
And that feeling peace Andy is

777
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,080
something I just didn't have
time for and I can't.

778
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,320
I look back now, I'm like, what
was I thinking?

779
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,200
Cause what is life without
feeling?

780
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:11,480
Amen.
Cool.

781
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,720
So, Matt, what's the best way
for people to keep in touch with

782
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:17,280
you, find out everything you're
up to and learn more about

783
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,680
books, programs, everything?
Yeah, anyone who's looking for

784
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,640
the books, Amazon is the best
place and and type in

785
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:25,760
psychedelics or Matt Zemon.
You'll get a bunch of different

786
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:30,200
books.
Matt zemon.com ZEMON, there's a

787
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,640
free guide to micro dosing.
You can reach out to me there.

788
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,600
Lots of little videos and things
on things that are happening are

789
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,480
all on madzeman.com.
And then if you're looking for a

790
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,360
speaker or any of that, that's a
great place to do it.

791
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,160
If you're buying books in bulk
because you're a therapist,

792
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,360
you're a coach, you are one of
these retreat centers that's I

793
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,240
mean that's the best way that
these books are sold by 100 at a

794
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:54,920
time to these groups.
And then LinkedIn and Instagram,

795
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,480
I'm active, I'm on there all the
time.

796
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,480
And if it's another great place
to reach out and and I'll

797
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,680
respond.
Awesome, thanks for joining us,

798
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,000
Matt.
Thanks everyone for listening

799
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,000
and tuning in today.
I'm sure, like me, you've gotten

800
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,360
a new perspective on things,
maybe opened your horizons, even

801
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,360
though take anything you've
opened your horizons in mind a

802
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,120
bit.
Please visit Real Man Field at

803
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:15,200
org.
See the blog post for this

804
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,960
episode.
Have all the various links to

805
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,160
the resources discussed and the
group's mentioned as well.

806
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,120
Wherever you're discovering Rim
and Feel, please subscribe,

807
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,560
follow, like, share this episode
with somebody, post a review or

808
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,000
comment.
If you are not living your life

809
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,960
to the fullest, I invite you to
book a free Clarity call with

810
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,480
me.
We'll explore what you want,

811
00:43:33,720 --> 00:43:35,920
what's in your way, and what you
can do about it.

812
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:41,560
Visit theandygrant.com/talk and
until next time, be good to

813
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:42,000
yourself.