Understanding Emotional Avoidance and Embracing Vulnerability

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel and welcome to 2025.

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I'm your host, author, coach and
healer, Andy Grant.

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You can visit theandygrant.com
to learn more about me.

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Real Men Feel reminds men that
they're human beings and that

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they have the right to
experience and express all of

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their emotions.
We have conversations that most

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men are not having, but that all
men benefit from.

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My guest today is Doctor
Michelle Maidenberg.

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Doctor Maidenberg maintains a
private practice in New York, is

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on the adjunct faculty of NYU,
and is the award-winning author

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of Ace Your Life.
Unleash Your Best Self and Live

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the Life You Want.
Michelle leads us on a master

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class on emotional avoidance.
While we all do it and what we

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do that makes it even worse.
But fear not, she also shares

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her ACE methodology which is
acceptance, compassion and

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empowerment that allows us to
connect with our core values and

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live our best life.
Michelle also tells us what she

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wishes more men knew.
The only thing that New Year's

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is good for, and two powerful
questions to get to the root of

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any issue.
Let's do it.

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Hello, Michelle, and welcome to
Room and Feel and welcome to

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2025.
Thanks so much for having me.

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I'm really excited to talk to
you and let's just jump right

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into it.
And I have.

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Let's start with what is
emotional avoidance?

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Good question.
Unfortunately, because of our

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human nature, we're all victim
to it.

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So if you think about it, our
brain, you know, our

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neurobiology, we're wired to
avoid discomfort and our brain

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is always trying to provide
safety.

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So when we say discomfort, that
includes negative emotions.

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And what are negative emotions?
And I don't like to actually

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call them negative emotions
because no emotions, there's a

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place and a benefit to every
single emotion.

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You know, we're not kids in a
candy store and we can't decide

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what emotions we're going to
decide to have when, you know,

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And it, it was so interesting.
I was talking just I'll, I'll

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kind of throw this in because it
was, it was so fascinating.

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I was talking yesterday to a
young woman who recently had a

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breakup and she was devastated
because this guy broke up with

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her was unexpected.
She felt, you know, of course,

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self-confidence, you know, got
in the way that it was something

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she, you know, she was kind of
perseverating over like why it

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happened and was it her fault
and is she not good enough?

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And all the lovely things that
happened when there's ruptures

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in our relationships.
And she said to me, she said,

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you know, I'm thinking back of
all these things that happened

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within our relationship.
And I recognize that I think he

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was a little bit like
emotionally abusive and I think

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like even verbally abusive.
And I said, why do you say that?

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And she was giving me examples.
She was saying to me, oh, like

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when we were talking, when I,
when I expressed that I was hurt

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or sad or frustrated or whatever
the case is, he would tell me

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that I had no right to feel that
way.

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And he would tell me to get the
thoughts out of my mind and

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everything.
And I said, wow, you know, try

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to do that right now.
Try to get the thoughts out of

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your minds, you know, 'cause
wait, there must be something

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wrong with you.
Because you shouldn't be worried

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and you shouldn't be frustrated
and you shouldn't be angry and

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disappointed and all those great
feelings.

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And she was like, what do you
mean?

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I said, try to get it out of
your mind.

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I'm going to give you a word,
OK, I'm going to give you a word

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right now.
What's your favorite food?

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And she was like, you know,
chocolate.

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And it was like, OK, get the
word chocolate out of your mind

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right now.
Get, get the image of chocolate,

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the smell of chocolate, like
getting out of your mind right

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this minute.
And she was like, she started

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laughing.
I said, what's happening in your

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mind as I'm saying this to you?
And I said, as you're trying to

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forget it, your mind is
remembering it in order to

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forget it.
And if I came back to you in two

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weeks from now and I said to
you, what is that food that we

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talked about?
You're going to say chocolate

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and you'll remember it for
months and months and months.

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So it doesn't work that way.
We can't get thoughts out of our

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mind.
And I always tell people every

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thought and feeling completely
OK behavior not so OK.

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So emotional avoidance in
general, you know, the crux of

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it.
If we were to summarize, it's

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avoiding negative emotions
because they're.

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Uncomfortable and is emotional
avoidance distancing ourselves

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from our own emotions and other
people's?

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Both, both, you know, both
because if you think about it,

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you know, when you experience,
you know what what happens is we

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judge our thoughts and feelings.
So it's, it's the feelings in

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and of themselves that we have
that are uncomfortable.

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And then we go into this whole
spiral about judging our

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thoughts and feelings.
Why do I still miss him?

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What's wrong with me?
He mistreated me.

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I shouldn't be feeling this way.
So it's, it's the fundamental

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feelings that come up initially.
And then it's judging the

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thoughts and feelings and then
having thoughts and feelings

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about judging the thoughts and
feelings.

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So we go down like this.
Yeah.

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And and it doesn't end.
And then what ends up happening,

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which is also so interesting, is
we respond to the thoughts and

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feelings.
Oh, I, yeah, I shouldn't, it's,

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it's three months already.
I shouldn't be feeling that way.

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Oh, but maybe I have a right to
because like, he really hurt me.

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No, no, no.
But I, you know, it's like we

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have this banter and then when
we have the banter, it continues

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and continues.
And I always tell people, you

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know, this is kind of a skill
and a tool is when you have the

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thought and feeling instead of
responding to it because your

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mind's going to kick in.
The reason why it's not

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forgetting how distressed you
are is so that you remember, so

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that you do not get yourself
into a situation like that

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again.
And I said, do you really want

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for your brain to have such
little empathy and compassion

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and love for you that you forget
it and then you get yourself

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into another relationship?
How amazing that this beautiful

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organ in your mind is helping
you and reminding you and it

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loves you so much that it's so
insistent.

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So yes, it's our relationship to
ourselves, to others.

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It spans, you know, all over
this universe.

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And that's, that's what's so
powerful about it.

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If you think about in accordance
to other people, right?

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If you're having a negative
emotion, that's valuable 'cause

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if I'm getting triggered by you,
let's say, or I'm getting

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triggered by something you said
or did or whatever the case is,

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that's valuable information that
I need to know.

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And I appreciate that because
then I could communicate to you

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or decide not to.
I could decide whether I want to

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be in a relationship with you
and if it's healthy for me or

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not.
I could decide what my core

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values are and whether it's
aligning while being in this

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relationship with you.
I need to know all that

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information.
So the avoidance is really to

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avoid the discomfort of of some
of our emotions and and the

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judgement that goes through with
it as well.

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Yes.
Does it ever service beyond not

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feeling discomfort?
Is is there ever a value to

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avoiding our emotions?
So that's a really good question

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because it's, it's a little
complicated.

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But what I'm going to say to
that is there is a time and a

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place, OK, to use those like
let's say distractions, right?

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Distractions, avoidance denial,
right?

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Those are all kind of
methodologies that we use in

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order to distance from our
emotions and our minds play.

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I say they play mind tricks on
us in order to distance from it

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because it's too painful.
Now I could tell you I've

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learned about myself in the past
number of years, which is

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fascinating to me.
I didn't realize how much when I

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was a kid that I repressed my
feelings.

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I understand why, why I did it.
It makes so much sense to me and

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it protected me and I, I
literally like when I have like

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this distress, I say to myself,
like I literally appreciate my

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mind and I talked to it.
I'm like, thank you so much

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because I don't know how I would
have gotten through some of the

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things I got through if my mind
didn't do what it did.

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It was like an adaptation that
like literally protected me in

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such a fundamental way.
And it actually, you know,

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protected me up till like five
years ago, let's say.

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Like literally, I was like
astonished at how much I

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repressed and how that is so a
default for me.

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Like I just go right there.
I'm like an expert at it when I

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don't want to feel something or
think it, you know, and distance

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from it.
But it's also keeps you away

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from being your best self.
That's the problem with it.

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You're not your authentic self.
You're you don't show up as your

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best self when you're doing
those different methodologies.

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So there is a time and a place.
So, you know, sometimes, like

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for example, we have such
intense emotions.

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So I always ask people from zero
to 10, how intense are you

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feeling your whatever emotions
right now?

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When somebody's anxious and
they're at A10, they're

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possessed, they're offline,
literally.

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And I say you're offline, you
can't think rationally right

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now.
We don't want to step in when

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we're at A10.
The whole point is we want to

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learn about ourselves so that we
could get connected to ourselves

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when we're at A2 or A3.
Much easier, much easier to

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transform at a two or three than
when you're out of 10.

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So when you're out of 10, you
need to give yourself that time

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and space to get back online.
It's sort of, you know, I use

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this kind of metaphor, but it's
an interesting one.

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You're turning on your PC and
you're sitting there and you

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want it like you're in a rush,
right?

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You want to get to the different
programs, right?

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Word and whatever else, and like
you're clicking and clicking,

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right?
But like nothing's going to

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happen as much as you want it to
cause your computer has to warm

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up and it's going to be ready
when it decides it's ready.

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Same sort of thing.
That's our nervous system.

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Our nervous system is not going
to be ready to focus and

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concentrate and be mindful and
thoughtful and productive and

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problem solve when you're
activated, when your nervous

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system is actually, it's just
not going to happen.

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It's literally I, I, I say
you're possessed and.

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When someone's at A10 for any
any intense emotion, what are

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some of the most common ways
that that someone acts out in

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that state?
Gosh, so many ways.

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Anger is a big, big, huge issue
for many people.

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And when I say anger, I'm not
talking about like being

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physically abusive because
that's like, you know, to an

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extreme.
I'm talking about yelling.

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I'm talking about saying, you
know, saying things to people

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that you regret afterwards.
Because like, you know, it

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happened to me this morning.
I was possessed this morning, I

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have to tell you.
But I called myself because

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somebody said that they were
going to contact me last night,

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you know, and they said they
were going to text me for us to

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talk or whatever and never
happened.

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OK?
So I texted them this morning

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and I said like, again, so
sarcastic, but like, it looked

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like it was really nice, you
know?

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But I said, are you OK?
I just want to find out.

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Are you OK?
And they answered me.

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Oh, yeah.
Thank you so much.

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Of course I'm great.
How's your day?

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Right.
And I'm sitting there like, they

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don't even remember.
Like I gave them a hint and

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they're still not getting it.
What?

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So then they so then I was like,
oh, because, you know, we were

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supposed to speak last night.
You were going to text me.

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I just thought, you know, maybe,
you know, you were caught up or

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maybe, you know, whatever, you
were busy or you forgot and I

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was waiting to see again.
Are they going to redeem

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themselves?
Right?

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It's like a whole trick, right?
They still didn't redeem

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themselves.
They actually didn't respond.

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And I'm sitting there and I'm
like, Oh no, I'm coming across

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00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,160
as aggressive.
And now they're flipping it on

227
00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:48,280
me.
Like all these like things are

228
00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,800
streaming through my And I'm
sitting there and I'm laughing

229
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:56,280
at myself because I'm like, wow.
So I said to myself, I am not

230
00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,800
being mindful right now.
This is coming from an unkind,

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00:11:59,960 --> 00:12:03,200
just compassionate place.
Like the world does not revolve

232
00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,360
around you, OK.
And you know, Ray, and not

233
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everyone's thinking 24/7 about
your needs.

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And like, that's just not how
the universe operates.

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Just because you're like that,
'cause I am like that, right?

236
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And my expectation is everybody
should be like me, which they're

237
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not, you know, and that it's
always disappointing, like to

238
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find out the, the universe is
not like me, you know?

239
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,960
And I, and I, I stopped and I
said, no, this is your brain,

240
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,200
right?
Protecting you.

241
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,920
And just like you're flawed, so
are other people.

242
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,720
People forget and that's OK.
And guess what?

243
00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,720
You don't need to be somebody's
center of the universe, 'cause

244
00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,720
that's not realistic, right?
And also having those

245
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:52,080
expectations right only feeds
into and strengthens the belief

246
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,400
that they should be, and that's
BS.

247
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,600
So right away I caught it and I
said to them, no worries.

248
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,120
Like, you know, I get it.
Like, you know, things get in

249
00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,920
the way sometimes.
Like I'm and I'm, I'm seeing

250
00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,440
them, you know, tomorrow I'm
like, I'm so looking forward to

251
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,360
us getting together.
No big deal.

252
00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:11,880
You know, I, I get things get in
the way sometimes.

253
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,720
And I felt so proud of myself
because I, I was like, I'm not

254
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,680
strengthening that belief and I
don't want to, and I want to be

255
00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:23,280
a compassionate person.
Like I don't want to come off as

256
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:24,480
aggressive and just
compassionate.

257
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:26,360
That's not who I am
authentically.

258
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,320
And I could have a conversation,
you know, with a person if I

259
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,680
really felt like they were, I
don't know, you know, whatever,

260
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,280
doing something egregious, which
that person obviously wasn't.

261
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,240
And then I also forgot, which is
also what happens.

262
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,800
We get so possessed we forget
everything else that they do

263
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,400
all.
The good things.

264
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,640
Yeah, this is a person who
literally like, well, like text

265
00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,320
me a few times a day.
How are you thinking of you?

266
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,040
What's up?
I totally like Boom out of my

267
00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:57,480
mind.
I forget all of that.

268
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:04,160
How, how do you know when you're
in the cycle of, of judging the

269
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,320
emotional avoidance and
discomfort and continuing the

270
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,160
cycle versus, you know, the
talking to yourself and thanking

271
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,960
your brain and, and being able
to laugh at it?

272
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:13,920
What what?
How does someone know when they

273
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,200
made that difference?
It's always about connecting to

274
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,760
your values.
When you're disconnected, OK,

275
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,480
with your authentic self and the
person you're meant to be and

276
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:27,960
how you want to be, you're
offline.

277
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:33,360
Like when I feel that, you know,
I feel it in my body and that's

278
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,640
what I help people connect to
'cause it's, it's a somatic

279
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,840
thing that goes on in our body,
right?

280
00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,960
It's a cognitive thing that goes
on in our mind as well.

281
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,240
So it misconstrues our thoughts
rate, our feelings and our body

282
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:48,760
sensations.
And when you connect to that and

283
00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,360
you recognize that you could
really make fundamental change.

284
00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:55,560
And it's incredible.
It's incredible how that

285
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,400
transformation takes place.
But when I see that I'm offline

286
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,640
and I recognize that I'm, it's
coming from a surge.

287
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:02,680
And you also have to know who
you are.

288
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:07,280
So I know that when I feel like
I'm not heard or I'm my needs

289
00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:10,040
are not cared for, right?
And it goes right into the

290
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,720
neglect.
It's like, like it swims right

291
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,320
there.
Like again, my radars go off and

292
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,040
it's like, protect yourself,
protect yourself.

293
00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,560
You know, I know what it is
because I know myself and I've

294
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,440
done the work.
And when I, when I connect to

295
00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,040
that, I automatically, right, I
could kind of feel and see the

296
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,160
aggression.
And then I right away I asked

297
00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:35,160
myself a couple of questions.
And these questions are magical.

298
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,200
So I, I really, you know, I love
them because they get us really

299
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,960
right to the center of how we
want to be.

300
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,840
You know, am I asserting myself
worse, right?

301
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,720
Am I acting on behalf of my
values and confidence?

302
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,600
Those are questions that get us
right to the matter in in an

303
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,040
instant.
And it really recalibrates us

304
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,320
and it grounds us so that we
could go to that space.

305
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,760
The men, Or maybe as a man, I
see this more often.

306
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,280
The men seem to get the the rap
of being emotionally avoidant

307
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,600
more so than women.
Is is is that the case?

308
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,880
Is this more prone for men?
So, you know, it's interesting

309
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,840
'cause, you know, unfortunately
we live in a culture which just

310
00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,960
the way it is, where men, it's
not, you know, it's not

311
00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:28,320
masculine and it's not, you
know, accepted that men are

312
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,480
emotional.
So not only do they have

313
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,600
negative reactions to emotion
when they see it in their

314
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,160
partner or their kids sometime
or whoever, they don't know what

315
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,440
to do with it and they get like
literally avoidant or fearful or

316
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,520
etcetera.
But they don't know what it is

317
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,440
or what to do with it when it's
within themselves.

318
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,400
And it becomes really scary.
You know, what is this?

319
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,680
Why is this happening to me?
And it's also scary because not

320
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,240
knowing how to handle it and
fearful that they're going to

321
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,520
actually, and this happens, I
see relative to relationships

322
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,319
that they're going to harm other
people.

323
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,520
Like I'm gonna say the wrong
thing, I'm gonna do the wrong

324
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,240
thing, I'm gonna act the wrong
way.

325
00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,359
And that comes from actually a
really thoughtful place and a

326
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,839
caring place, which I love.
And when you're.

327
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:20,440
Able that that concern is
proving to that man that he does

328
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,720
have emotions and feelings.
Exactly.

329
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:27,040
It's so if you think about how
distorted that is, right?

330
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,280
So it's.
It's getting to the center of

331
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,240
what your core emotion is like
where is your go to place,

332
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,320
right?
So mine tends to be anger and

333
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,720
right where what is the
foundation foundationally?

334
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,560
What's underneath that is
sadness, right?

335
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,360
But I don't feel comfortable
with sadness.

336
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:50,080
I feel more comfortable with
anger, 'cause I know anger, oh,

337
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,080
anger I'm good with, right?
Where some other people, and

338
00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,000
especially men, men tend to be
in this way too.

339
00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,320
Men tend to definitely gravitate
more towards anger than sadness,

340
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:03,200
right?
And it's funny, 'cause growing

341
00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:09,000
up my closest friends were men,
were boys, not women, I and I, I

342
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,400
jive with guys because I get
them in that way.

343
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,320
The emotional part 'cause I'm
somewhat like that.

344
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,080
Yeah, you're wired similarly in
that respect at least.

345
00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:22,280
Yes, so I get that and I don't
like like drama.

346
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,880
I'm not like, I don't like
drama.

347
00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:25,600
I don't like BS.
I like getting to the core of

348
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,200
things, you know, and I find men
10 you know, to be that way,

349
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:30,600
right?
It's it's like they're not

350
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,360
caught up.
They don't get caught up in this

351
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,720
whole, but that's also a
detriment.

352
00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:40,920
That's also a detriment because
life is full of adversity, OK,

353
00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,480
for everyone, men, women alike,
and particularly for men, there

354
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,000
isn't a space by which to
process and problem solve

355
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,240
through and connect to.
And that leads to like, like I

356
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,080
said, just compassionate
sometimes and a lack of mindful

357
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,160
behavior.
I was just talking to a guy

358
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,120
yesterday.
He said to me he was, he was,

359
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,400
you know, talking to me about
his divorce and he was telling

360
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,560
me that, you know, it's kind of
acquiring like, you know, what

361
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,280
led to it or what got in the way
for him and, and very successful

362
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,360
person, etcetera.
So he was telling me anger, that

363
00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:21,440
anger got in the way.
And then he had outbursts and it

364
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,560
didn't happen all the time, but
it happened, you know, kind of

365
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,760
infrequently.
But when it did happen, it was

366
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,520
out of 10, you know, I don't
know exactly the intricacies of

367
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,440
it.
Like, and he claims there was no

368
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,560
physical, you know, was is more
verbal.

369
00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,560
But he said that it was really,
really intense and really

370
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:46,280
aggressive, so much so that his
daughter told him that she felt

371
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,480
like so fearful that that she
was going to drop at any time.

372
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:55,800
And he said to me, he said, I've
been depressed because I take

373
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,360
responsibility, you know, I'm in
recovery and I take

374
00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:02,120
responsibility that I harmed,
you know, my ex-wife and my and

375
00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:05,680
my kids.
And you know, it impacted

376
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,360
negatively my relationships, you
know, and I get depressed

377
00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:12,280
because I sit sometimes in my
apartment and I think about like

378
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,760
how my life is, you know, we
talked about that.

379
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,600
And he is having a hard time
connecting to his self

380
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,880
compassion and forgiving
himself.

381
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:30,720
Not forgiving and forgetting,
OK, but forgiving and making a

382
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:36,680
better life for himself so that
he could again heal those parts

383
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:41,840
of him that allowed him to act
out in those ways.

384
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,240
And I said to him right away, I
go, you didn't do that for no

385
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,640
reason.
I said there was there was some

386
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,720
kind of trauma or something
beneath that that caused you to

387
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,960
get into that space.
And he's of course, he said,

388
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,240
yes, right.
And I said, I am so happy that

389
00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:58,720
you're feeling as guilty as you
do.

390
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,200
And he was like, what, what are
you talking about?

391
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:06,120
I said, really, would you want
to be like, oh, great, you know,

392
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,560
I was aggressive and my family
is upset at me and like, look

393
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,320
what I did like is it?
Would that be OK with you?

394
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,320
Well, that would say something
about you.

395
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,960
Your guilt is a wonderful thing
because that means that you

396
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,760
weren't your authentic self when
you were behaving that way.

397
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,920
How important is it that you're
connecting to that?

398
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,880
Because because your guilt is
going to allow you to always

399
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,840
remember that, and it's going to
decrease the chances of

400
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,160
recidivism that you will ever do
that again.

401
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,800
So embrace your guilt, embrace
your regret.

402
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,280
That is a beautiful thing about
you.

403
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,120
And he was like, wow, I never
thought about it that way.

404
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,120
Yeah, that that's powerful.
That's a, that's a, a powerful

405
00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,720
switch for someone to make.
What?

406
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,480
So what are some other
techniques for for managing or

407
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,320
coping with those intense, you
know, so-called negative

408
00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,760
emotions?
Yeah, so that's what my whole

409
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,280
book is about.
So let's get into what Yeah,

410
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,200
it's getting.
It's getting through stuckness.

411
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,000
You know, my book is about
getting through stuckness.

412
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,640
And I talk about foundationally
how we're wired, you know, our

413
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,640
thoughts and feelings and body
sensations.

414
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,160
Because I, I feel like people do
not have an understanding men,

415
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:20,000
especially men because like I
said, there isn't an outlet and

416
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,120
culturally they're not taught
how to have an outlet or what

417
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:27,920
that looks like, you know?
So that's really difficult and

418
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,400
my heart goes out literally.
I, I see so many men in my

419
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:35,200
practice and when I teach them
the language and I and they gain

420
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,960
confidence around their emotions
and how to interrelate with

421
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,880
them, it's transformative for
them, you know, and I, and when

422
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,440
I even say to them, it's OK, you
could think how you think and

423
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,000
feel how you feel and your body
could speak to all of that.

424
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,960
Like all of that is wonderful
and beautiful about you that

425
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,000
like literally it's like a brick
like gets released from their

426
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,440
shoulders.
I'm not even kidding.

427
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,200
And then we, you know, and then
I teach them about their core

428
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,120
values.
People will argue with me that

429
00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:08,640
they know what their core values
are and I do these value

430
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,520
exercises and fundamentally
people don't not their core

431
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:17,560
values and we confuse values and
goals by the way, you know, so

432
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,360
that's a big thing that kind of
comes up.

433
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,640
And then I talk about
acceptance, compassion and

434
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,880
empowerment, which is my ACE
method, but I talk about the

435
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,720
barriers first and then how to
integrate skills so that you

436
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:34,000
could integrate self acceptance,
self compassion and empowerment

437
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,800
to like live the life you want
to be living.

438
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,920
So there's so many tools, but I
see it in three tiers because

439
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,160
there's pieces around our self
acceptance which are very hard

440
00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:47,320
to integrate because of again,
there's so many barriers that

441
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,640
get in the way of that both on a
cognitive level and a social

442
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,920
cultural level and on and on.
And then our self compassion,

443
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,840
we're never taught to be self
compassionate ever.

444
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,600
Nobody.
When I do exercises with people

445
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,840
to kind of lean them into their
self compassion.

446
00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:11,520
If I tell you the discomfort
people have, you know, or when I

447
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,720
verbalize to somebody how
beautiful and wonderful they

448
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,520
are, like they literally almost
can't look at me, you know, like

449
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,760
I'm making eye contact is
painful for them because what

450
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,200
you're saying something intimate
to me and it's like so

451
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,800
vulnerable and like, Oh my, what
you know, and should I believe

452
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,440
you?
And then the empowerment is

453
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,040
about what actions do we want to
take?

454
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,680
And the, the important part of
our actions is the

455
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,120
sustainability.
I find that people don't talk

456
00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,840
about sustainability, making
change.

457
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,400
We learn skills to make change.
We learn skills to change

458
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,000
habits.
There's tons of books on habit

459
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:52,480
changes.
I've read all of them.

460
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,520
They're wonderful, but not
sustainability.

461
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,960
We don't talk about
sustainability, right?

462
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,480
And I don't care what habit or
what behavior you're trying to

463
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,200
change, whether it's anger, you
know, addiction, health and

464
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,080
weight management.
I could go on and on.

465
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,360
What happens?
How many times do people fall in

466
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:12,840
the pit, right?
They sustain their behavior

467
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,680
first time period of time and
then right back there.

468
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,160
Why 'cause they get triggered
and the brain, what does it do?

469
00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,800
It goes right back to those
neural pathways and the familiar

470
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:26,840
and comfortable.
Here we go, right?

471
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,200
Yeah, the the familiar and
comfortable for each of us

472
00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:34,040
doesn't mean it is comfortable.
It's just that the hell that

473
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,160
we're used to.
Wow, It is comfortable.

474
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,760
It is comfortable, but it isn't
necessarily productive and

475
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,440
helpful.
That's the problem.

476
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,120
It could be very
counterproductive, which it

477
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:49,080
usually is, yeah.
So, so I, I love you're talking

478
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,400
about sustainability of action.
So, you know, at the dawn of, of

479
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,960
a new year when, when so many
people are making their

480
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,400
resolutions.
And so do you have any tips to

481
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,440
keep that, that growth mindset,
that sustainability going

482
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:02,600
instead of just fizzling out in
the next couple weeks?

483
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:04,880
That's a great question.
I love it.

484
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,320
First of all, forget about New
Year's resolutions.

485
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,720
Like literally throw that out
the window.

486
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,400
I, I think the only thing that,
you know, New year, New Year's

487
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,680
risk is good for is maybe
thinking about, like I always

488
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,320
think about, and I, I do this, I
do this exercise with my kids.

489
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,000
And by the way, my kids are
older, they're grown, you know,

490
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,800
I have 4 kids, you know, and
they're 24, you know, 2119 and

491
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:30,720
16.
So they're, they're big, but I

492
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,080
have this, literally this jar.
And we do it every, you know,

493
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,600
like five years or so.
And I, I give them all a little

494
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:39,960
piece of paper.
We do this every New Year's.

495
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,960
And they write down what was
going on in their past year,

496
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,320
right, Like reflections and how
they want to see the year ahead.

497
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,320
And then we break open the jar
every five years to read our

498
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,480
past five years.
Yeah.

499
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,600
And they're so excited, like,
you know, to like, what did I

500
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,920
write 'cause we forgot, you
know?

501
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,560
So it's a good time to
recalibrate.

502
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,280
That's the only thing it's good
for.

503
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,080
It's not like, oh, I'm going to
like lose weight 10 lbs up.

504
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,080
Yeah, no, those again are not,
those are not going to be

505
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:10,680
sustained.
Forget about it.

506
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,440
That's going to last a couple
months.

507
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,520
That's why the gym, like gym
memberships way up high January

508
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,560
1st and then let's like February
1st.

509
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,680
Bye bye.
Half the gym is empty.

510
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,000
We know they, they actually
count on that for revenue.

511
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,280
They do right.
So what it is good for is

512
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,840
recalibrating.
In other words, it's it's a time

513
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,640
to reflect and to say to
yourself where, you know, where

514
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,640
was my past year, where was I
at?

515
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,440
What was I working towards?
Did I accomplish what I want to?

516
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:44,960
How do I want to see the year
ahead?

517
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,640
So it's reformulating goals, I
would say, and objectives for

518
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,400
yourself, you know, and it's,
it's a good time to do that.

519
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,080
It's a wonderful time to do
that.

520
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,960
And again, when we're talking
about goals on number of

521
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,000
different levels, it could be
personal goals around career, it

522
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,320
could be around family, it could
be around again, you know,

523
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,240
behaviors.
So it's vast, you know,

524
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,480
depending on like what you're
striving for.

525
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,200
And, and going back to your,
your ACE methodology, when it

526
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,480
comes to acceptance and
compassion, can some things just

527
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,680
be left in the past or do we
need to go dig up every trauma

528
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,280
and, you know, examine it and
experience it to heal it?

529
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,600
How, How?
What do you think about that?

530
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,320
It it so every person's
different.

531
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,960
Yeah, every person's different.
I do a treatment called EMDR,

532
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:34,440
which you see that light bar
behind me?

533
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,840
Yeah, that's called EMDR.
That's one of the treatments I

534
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,440
do.
And it really helps with, you

535
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,400
know, formative trauma.
It helps with stuckness.

536
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,640
It helps with, I use it for so
many different things.

537
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,080
If you're finding that for
whatever reason with your

538
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,040
stuckness that you're having a
hard time moving through it and

539
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,000
really, really changing behavior
and you find you keep, you keep

540
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,320
slipping and sliding, there's
something stuck.

541
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,840
There's a barrier there, right?
That guy who I just talked about

542
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,800
the, you know, the guy who has
anger management, you know,

543
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:11,400
challenges, he could not make
change because there was a

544
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,520
barrier there.
And he did peripheral work

545
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,920
around his trauma, you know,
from what it sounded like.

546
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,720
But he didn't do deep healing
work, which is very, very

547
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,040
different, you know, So you have
to really think about and not,

548
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,080
and by the way, we all
universally have little TS and

549
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,800
big TS.
I don't care who you are, we all

550
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,320
do.
And whenever I say to somebody,

551
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,120
you know, bring bring up
memories from your past, you

552
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,960
know, from childhood or
adolescence or, you know, that

553
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,800
kind of stick with you who
doesn't have those memories?

554
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,440
And it's so fascinating because
it could be like this most

555
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,440
innocuous memory that they have.
I, I just was talking to this

556
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,360
woman and she was telling me
that she had a memory when she

557
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,000
was an adolescent.
Her mother said something to

558
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,240
her, but she earmarked that as
something that changed the

559
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,880
trajectory of her life in
regards to her self-confidence.

560
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,160
And it was like 1 little thing
that she interpreted in a

561
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,160
certain way, her perception and
it really changed her path.

562
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,000
And I, I always hear that from
everybody.

563
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,080
Men, it's like amazing.
It could be.

564
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,400
And it's usually in an
interpersonal relationship,

565
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,760
whether with a parent or again,
friendships growing up that

566
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,640
happens.
So it really depends.

567
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,320
I would say that a healing
journey is about being real with

568
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,680
yourself.
That's what it's really about.

569
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,440
And I see that you were trained
in a number of different forms

570
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,800
of therapy.
So I'm glad you mentioned the

571
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,840
EMDR because I wanted to ask you
as a practitioner, do you have a

572
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,080
favorite?
So I have to tell you, I do a

573
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,240
lot of personal work.
I just actually a week ago I

574
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,560
went to a retreat, a weekend
retreat.

575
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,640
It was yoga and EMDR, but it was
called Healing the Healer.

576
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,520
So all the work that I did while
I was training in EMDR because I

577
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,680
always do, you know, continuing
a development and education

578
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:13,600
because I'm a big proponent of
education, It was Healing the

579
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,200
Healer.
So you were using EMDR to work

580
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,160
on yourself personally, which I
love, love.

581
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,680
And it was like 25 practitioners
like me and we got into triads

582
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,200
and we had to practice on each
other, but dealing with a

583
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,520
personal issue.
And I, I did a piece of work, I

584
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,200
have to tell you, in that
workshop, which I always feel

585
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,320
like EMDR, literally when I do
work on myself and others, it's

586
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,200
like 5 years of therapy in like
a couple of sessions.

587
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,520
It's mind blowing because it
goes so deep and it's so into

588
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,800
the subconscious.
It's mind blowing.

589
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,160
And I have to tell you the work
that I did at this workshop.

590
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,040
And again, it's because I was
ready to do that piece of work.

591
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,480
I tried to do that piece of work
many times before.

592
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,920
I have to tell you, I couldn't
get there.

593
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,000
I just couldn't.
I, I was resistant to it and I

594
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,920
had to train myself through
emotional avoidance and the work

595
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,280
that I teach, I had to
incrementally and slowly train

596
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:17,080
and practice to go into those
really painful spots so that I

597
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,480
could broach into these huge
pain, huge painfully spots.

598
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,600
And I did.
I did that work and I could see

599
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,160
so many things happened over the
course of the week.

600
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,600
Like there were like examples in
plain sight where I could see

601
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,440
that there were changes in the
way I was thinking and feeling

602
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,080
and acting that I was.
I'm blown away.

603
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,320
Like literally blown away.
It was amazing.

604
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,760
So I love EMDR.
I, I, I'm such a proponent and

605
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,320
I've, I mean, I could get sit
here and give you example after

606
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,080
example of work that I've done
with, with my patients that you

607
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,360
would, your mouth would be wide
open.

608
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,080
Literally.
I do unluck twitch is acceptance

609
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,080
and commitment therapy, which
again, is very value based.

610
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,440
Swear by it.
You know, I do a lot of CBT.

611
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,200
It really, I'm actually doing a
certification now in Team CBT,

612
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,240
which is David Byrne's work.
So I'm always, I'm, you know,

613
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,840
I'm doing some work in IFS,
which is internal family system,

614
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,280
which is parts work again.
I, I, yeah, I'm constant.

615
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:13,920
I have so many different things
I want to do.

616
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:20,000
We will be here all day.
Oh, so so did you go into this

617
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,160
profession because of your own
recognition of need for work for

618
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,000
yourself?
You know, I, I grew up and my

619
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,920
parents divorced when I was 3.
A lot of intergenerational

620
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,640
trauma.
I mean, substantial, my, my four

621
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:38,800
grandparents were Holocaust
survivors and they all were in

622
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,320
concentration camps.
I mean, we're talking about like

623
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,840
all of their families were
murdered, you know, we're

624
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,800
talking about gruesome, horrible
trauma that they experienced.

625
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,680
I didn't realize when I was
younger, my grandmother, one

626
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,600
particular, my maternal
grandmother used to tell me

627
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,720
stories about the war since I
was little.

628
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,400
I didn't realize the impact it
had on me.

629
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,040
I had no clue.
And to me, it was just a story.

630
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,360
And we used to laugh at her
because she used to repeat the

631
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,000
story.
Story.

632
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,480
You know how it is, right?
They keep repeating the same

633
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,680
stories.
And you're like, oh, to hear

634
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,880
this again, right?
But I didn't realize what it was

635
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,520
doing to my nervous system.
The other thing that I, I'm, I'm

636
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,639
an empath by nature.
Like I literally feel other

637
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:18,600
people's feelings.
When somebody experiences pain

638
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,120
or distress, I literally feel
their pain.

639
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,679
So I'm wired in a way where I
could deeply, deeply have deep

640
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:29,280
compassion for another person.
And one thing that I appreciate

641
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:34,600
about myself is I I get people's
experience because I had some of

642
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,639
that same adversity in my life.
Like I didn't feel safe, you

643
00:34:38,639 --> 00:34:39,920
know, in a lot of different
ways.

644
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,080
You know, there was some
neglect.

645
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,960
You know, I rate it in my
introduction of my book, some of

646
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,360
it, you know, without getting
into the gory details, but yeah,

647
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,480
I get pain.
I know what that's like.

648
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,239
And and I continue to feel pain
in many different ways.

649
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,960
You know, it comes up all the
time for all of us, you know,

650
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:02,720
And if you don't have, you know,
kind of a structure or a way to

651
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:06,840
approach it in a healthy,
thoughtful, mindful way, we

652
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,920
become self-destructive, you
know, and it's, it's painful.

653
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,760
It, it creates more pain.
That's the problem.

654
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,560
Like we already fundamentally
have pain.

655
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,040
We don't need more pain.
It's enough, right?

656
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,840
It's like, no, Yeah.
So like.

657
00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:22,200
That's not anybody's goal list.
More.

658
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,320
Pain in my life.
That's right, But we already

659
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,960
have it because of that's life.
Like life is full of human

660
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,280
suffering.
That's Buddha, right?

661
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,280
Buddha says life is full of
human suffering.

662
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,760
We don't need to tack on more
suffering, right?

663
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,040
We have enough of it.
So like anything that we could

664
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,600
do.
And life is so short, by the

665
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,560
way, life is so short.
Michelle, is there anything top

666
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,160
of mind that you wish more men
knew?

667
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:49,800
I I wish they knew every thought
and feeling and body sensation

668
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,240
that they had is completely OK
and acceptable.

669
00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:00,680
That's what I wish they knew and
I wish that they gave themselves

670
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:03,560
more self acceptance and self
compassion.

671
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,040
I really do, because I think
that's where we get stuck.

672
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,960
You know, people don't know what
that is and they don't know how

673
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,080
to go about integrating that
into their lives and it it's a

674
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,560
transform.
It's really transformative in

675
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,720
regards to their relationship
with themselves and other

676
00:36:21,720 --> 00:36:24,320
people.
When I tell people, oh, you

677
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,080
know, you could transform
relationship with yourself

678
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,120
though, I go, who cares, right?
What is that like?

679
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,200
It sounds hokey and whatever.
When I tell them that they could

680
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,000
transform their relationship
with other people, they perk up

681
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,720
that they want I don't care how
you do it.

682
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,840
I don't care if that's what gets
you hooked to drink the

683
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,280
kool-aid.
Cool, right?

684
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,440
But that's what's connecting to
your values.

685
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,720
That's the whole point.
I don't care what it is.

686
00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,440
I don't care.
Just like I tell people, you

687
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,560
know, we have this idea, you
know, good role modeling and we

688
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,080
have to learn from our parents
and our parents should be like

689
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,680
this way and that way.
And they should, should, should

690
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,880
like no, our parents are who
they are and we don't have a

691
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:11,560
choice and who parents us.
So I don't care if you learned

692
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,200
by not repeating the mistakes
generationally or you learned

693
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,920
because you had good role
modeling, as long as you learn.

694
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,160
In honor of your practice of
looking over the past year and

695
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,480
looking forward to next year, I
wonder, I want to know how do

696
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,720
you enjoy life?
Gosh, that's such a great

697
00:37:30,720 --> 00:37:34,320
question.
I it being in the present

698
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:39,040
moment, there's no other way.
You know, I just yesterday, I

699
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,440
have to tell you, I was sitting
and I was thinking to myself,

700
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,760
like, where am I?
Like I just asked myself that

701
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,200
question, where am I?
And I said to myself, you know

702
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,560
what, I think my daughter is
going to graduate in a year and

703
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:54,960
a half.
I'm going to be an empty nester.

704
00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,720
And I love sunshine and nature.
Like that is my happy space.

705
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,880
It really is.
And I said, if I don't find, you

706
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,240
know, partner or somebody that
I'm attached to, I'm literally

707
00:38:07,240 --> 00:38:09,400
picking myself up and I'm going
somewhere.

708
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,720
I live in New York.
I'm picking myself up and I'm

709
00:38:11,720 --> 00:38:14,960
going to sunshine and I will
find somebody there.

710
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,400
I don't care.
But like, because my kids are

711
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,800
kind of spread out, I'm like, I
don't need to be anywhere, but I

712
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,320
need to be in a place where I
feel all grounded and I feel

713
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:31,600
light and I feel vibrant and I
feel my authentic self and my

714
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,080
best self.
That's what I need.

715
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,040
And even if I don't eventually
move to somewhere like that,

716
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,280
like that's my goal is to have a
space that I could escape to,

717
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,560
you know?
So like, whatever that is for

718
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:49,520
you, what brings on light?
What brings on contentment, you

719
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:52,760
know, that feeds your soul where
you feel energy.

720
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,120
That's what it is.
It's energy.

721
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:57,640
And that's how I refer to
emotions, by the way, is energy.

722
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:05,000
So if when the anger comes,
because it does, I say, wow, I

723
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,680
feel so much energy in my body,
what do I want to do with this?

724
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,840
And it transforms the way I
think and feel about it in the

725
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,440
moment.
And that's kind of my buzzword.

726
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,760
That's my cue, so, yeah.
So find what that is for you,

727
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,120
what that drives your energy and
your light, and what makes you

728
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,440
content in life.
And Michelle, what's the best

729
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,360
way for people to find out
everything that you're up to and

730
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,320
and get in touch with you?
Definitely my website, which is

731
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,280
my full name.
It's Michelle maidenberg.com and

732
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,160
it's you know, it's right Below
you can see my name.

733
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,280
I also just to know I I do
publish new guided meditations

734
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,040
every Thursday morning on my
YouTube channel on all different

735
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,360
topics.
I also blog for Psychology Today

736
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,200
and I write an article once
about once a month and it's

737
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,200
again self help topics.
It's all different types of

738
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,160
inspirational topics, advocacy,
etcetera.

739
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,960
And then of course my book.
So I do.

740
00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:09,360
I'm always trying to give back.
Like I really just want people

741
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:12,920
to heal and to feel positive and
confident, you know, about

742
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:14,480
themselves.
That's really my mission in

743
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:15,640
life.
Awesome.

744
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,080
Thanks, Michelle, for all the
work that you're doing for

745
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,680
yourself, for your clients, for
the world, and sharing your

746
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,080
discoveries with their writings
and the blogging and and the

747
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,000
meditations.
And yeah, I, I knew from the

748
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,600
first time we connected it.
Yeah, we, I didn't even talk

749
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:35,160
about it, but yeah, I was very
much into energy work.

750
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,880
I grew up.
I was an empathic kid, didn't

751
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,760
know what that meant.
Made for a horrible childhood.

752
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:43,840
So I really resonate with a lot
of things that you share and I

753
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,720
know a lot of the men do, too.
So, Michelle, thanks for joining

754
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:49,080
us today.
Thanks for joining us, everyone.

755
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,720
Please visit realmenfield.org.
See the blog post for this

756
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:53,800
episode, which will have all
various links and resources

757
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,040
discussed, all the books from
Michelle, ways to connect with

758
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,400
her, and wherever you're
discovering, real and feel.

759
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,360
Please subscribe, follow, like,
share this episode with someone,

760
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,960
post a review or comment.
If you want to make 2025 the

761
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,400
best year of your life so far, I
invite you to book a free

762
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,400
Clarity call with me.
We'll get you crystal clear on

763
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,480
what you want and what's in your
way of getting there.

764
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,240
You can visit
theandygrant.com/talk and until

765
00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:20,440
next time, be good to yourself.