When Boys Become Boys | Messages and Development of Masculinity

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Greetings and welcome to real
men.

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Feel, this is your host author,
coach, and healer.

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And he Grant, you can learn more
about me at the Indy Grand.com.

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Real men, feel invites you to
redefine what masculinity means

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in today's world.
The I believe the only

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difference.
The only definition of

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masculinity that matters is
yours.

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We remind me that you're human
beings and have the right to

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experience and express all of
their emotions.

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We have conversations that most
men are not having but that all

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men can benefit from You know,
one of the most mentioned books,

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the many learned guests of real
men feel have said to me is when

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boys become boys, development
relationships and masculinity by

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Judy, Judy.
Judy is an educator researcher

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and author, she teaches a course
on boys, psychosocial

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development at Stanford
University for book.

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When boys, become boys
highlights, boys, relational

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strengths and how boys gender
socialization can impact their

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development relationships and
well-being.

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She also co-edited adolescent
boys, exploring diverse cultures

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of Boyhood.
Good Judy.

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Currently serves as chair of the
global Men's Health advisory

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committee at movember and
co-chair of the board of

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directors X at X Commando the
center for masculinities and

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social justice.
She also advises the partnership

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for male Youth and the boys club
of New York.

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I recently discovered, we had a
number of connections and

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comment on LinkedIn.
So, I reached out and I am very

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psyched to say, welcome to real
men, feel Judy.

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Thank you so much, Andy.
It's a pleasure to be here with

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you.
You do an amazing amount of

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support for boys, and Men at.
So, the first thing comes to my

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mind is, like, what, what got
you interested in that to begin

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with?
Oh, well, actually, it was boys

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who kind of led me to the work.
I was spending a lot of time

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might, I have a younger brother
who's nine years younger and so

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after my first year of graduate
school, I went home and was

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basically chauffeuring a bunch
of 13 year old boys around and

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they were asking, you know what,
I was learning at Harvard and

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you know wanting to be impressed
or whatever.

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And I told them oh well, one of
the most interesting things I've

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learned And this year was near
the work of Carol Gilligan who

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eventually became my academic
advisor and she had been doing

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this work with adolescent girls
and kind of what girls were

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going through adolescence and
how does best support them and

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the things that they were coming
up against and all that stuff.

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And one of the boys said to me,
you know, that's important and

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good.
But you know what, you know, we

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have something to say to their
stuff going on for us to and

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nobody's looking at boys.
And so he decided for me, he

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said you should study boys, you
can start with me.

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And so I kind of sat with that,
took it back with me.

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You know, when I went back in
the fall, the school and

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mentioned it to Carol and she
said, you should talk to him,

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you know, clearly he's
interested and wants to say

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something.
And so for her class, which I

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was taking that semester on
clinical, interviewing I, you

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know, use that opportunity to
interview him, he talked for two

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hours about his various things
that were going on his

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relationships, you know, just
messages.

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He was getting about what a me
and you're just all the

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questions that he had in his
mind to talk.

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And he really did, he was so
thoughtful Oil and had a lot to

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say.
And I don't think that he is

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alone in being thoughtful and
having a lot to say.

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And so that kind of started my
whole exploration of, you know,

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that involved kind of just
revisiting what do we know

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about, boys.
I mean, I think a lot of the

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literature on human development
psychology.

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Kind of assumed we knew about
boys and men since a lot of

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earlier development and
psychological studies had been

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largely based on boys, you know,
at a time when they were like,

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oh, we can just study boys and
men and extrapolate from there

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but they had Did studied boys
and men in a way that maybe

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missed a part of their story or
missed something in their

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experience.
And so I had a lot of fun

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actually.
Just, you know, getting to not

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be a fly on the wall because
obviously they knew I was there.

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I really stood out.
You know what, I went entered

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all boys, you know, schools and
such but they were so generous

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and so forthcoming and just kind
of saying like, yeah, that's

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important to ask.
Yeah, we can tell you and it's

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long as they trusted that I was
really interested in hearing it.

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They had so much to share, and I
was just lucky and grateful to

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be there.
R.

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Well, that's phenomenal.
So did it see that these boys?

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But they seemed like they were
lying to speak about this where

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they were.
They talking about this to

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anyone else?
Who either were you?

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The first chance they took, gosh
that's a great question.

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Um, I think that they were, you
know, they definitely wanted to

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talk about it.
They weren't they were utterly.

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I started out them talking with
and listening to early

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adolescence, so kind of 7th, 8th
grade.

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And then through high school and
definitely they, they Wanted to

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talk about it, but they weren't
sure who with whom it would be

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safe to do so.
And some of them did talk about

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it, like they're like, oh, you
know, in my general peer group,

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you know, if you kind of spill
your guts and tell people these

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things, they'll just, they'll
use it against you, you know, it

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could be, you don't want to
reveal yourself and make

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yourself vulnerable in that way.
But, you know, some of them had

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close friendships and they
talked about the value of that,

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like, you know, and how
important those were to them and

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how like, you know, my best
friend knows me.

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We can just be each other.
He's we're totally different,

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but we support each other in
every way and it just helped.

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Um to feel like they could get
through life's in the inevitable

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challenges and hurdles, you
know, like the sense of being in

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it together rather than alone
was so valuable.

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So that.
Yeah, they had a lot of great

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insights, your things that we
might as a society, a tribute to

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like, oh that's, you know,
things that girls talk about

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with their friends with that
guys.

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Don't that, you know, any of
those stereotypes, ready.

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Completely, you know, irrelevant
at the minute.

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I started listening to these
boys and hearing what they had

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to say because they were, like I
said, really thoughtful really

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attuned.
Reading their relationships and

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the social dynamics and what,
you know, kind of track me.

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I'm really trying to figure out
at a time in their lives.

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Like, what's going on?
What's the reality?

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And how can I, how can I fit in
here?

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Do I fit in?
What's my place?

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How can I show myself to others
and not put myself at risk of

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being teased or bullied?
But, you know, really longing

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for those kind of genuine
authentic connections, you know?

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Because of course, we all need
that all people need that and

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it's silly to Discount the
possibility that boys and men

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would want that as well, right?
Yeah, I'm glad you said men

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because I know men at every age,
it's that challenge of what can

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I share?
What will be used against me

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even by my friends?
And, you know, just the kind of

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the ballbusting and ribbing that
that guys will do.

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But I also know that when guys,
I'm it like it hurts to like,

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they know it's a joke, but it
still hurts.

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Exactly, exactly.
So, tell me about the study that

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led to the book.
Okay, so so as I said, I started

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out talking to adolescent boys
and when I was, you know, and

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every week I would meet with my
advisor, Carol Gilligan and we

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would talk about, you know, what
I was hearing as I was, you

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know, interviewing observing it
interviewing status and boys and

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what I was hearing was they were
kind of Starting to reconcile

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not right, not reconcile, its
kind of accepting the fact that

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there is this gap between the
way boys are said to be and the

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way they experience themselves
to be.

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And I'm not saying that they
accepted it like, oh okay, I'm

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okay with it.
They were just saying, this is

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just how it is and part of
growing up is accepting that

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people just aren't going to see
you for who you are.

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And they were, it wasn't so much
that they were like, telling me

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as a conclusion, they were
almost like asking me.

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Like, is that what it's like?
Is that what you're seeing as an

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adult?
Who's a few years older like, is

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that what you're fine?
Being as well.

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So but they were kind of coming
to feel like, okay.

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We've had a few years of
experience under our belt.

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It seems like it's just very,
very difficult or rare to have

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spaces where you can be
yourself, and you're lucky if

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you do.
But it's just seems very, very

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rare.
And so Carol said, you know,

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maybe you need to look at
earlier, maybe you need to look

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at a time when they don't think,
maybe that's just the way it is

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when there's still more actively
resisting.

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It it's not to say that the
adolescent boys weren't

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resisting it, but they were kind
of saying like oh, you know what

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you like yours.
I'll get teased, it hurts when I

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get teased and this more likely
than not people use it against

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me when I read my review myself.
So I think I better just figure

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out how to be very Savvy, very
selective about who I show

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myself to but accept that for
the most part I can't just enter

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a space and be myself that I
need to be careful.

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And so Carol was saying like,
well, maybe go to look younger

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when they're when they know
these rules, haven't said in

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these rules for engagement
haven't yet, set in as the way

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things are supposed to be.
Or have to be.

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And so they were more openly
challenging it like oh, why

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can't I give my friend a hug or
why can't we snuggle together?

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You know, or why can't I just be
exuberant and really excited

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about things because they the
rules were just beginning to be

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introduced.
And so Carol encouraged me to

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look at four year old boys in a
preschool setting and sure

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enough.
I mean they were open and just

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wore their hearts on their
sleeves, you know, they would

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think, you know, their tell you
exactly what they were thinking

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and feeling and so you never had
League second guess them because

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they would show you exactly what
it is.

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Are you hurt my feelings?
Or don't boss me around it, just

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a lot of openness.
And so it was at this moment

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where they could really be
honest without having without

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self-monitoring to the extent
that we all learn to do when

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we're participating in society
and at a moment of transition,

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when they were entering schools
for the you know, for some of

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them for the first time or at
least starting to become more

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invested in like, oh well what
does it mean to be one of the

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boys or what does it mean to?
You know, be appropriate and

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inappropriate boy or a desirable
boy.

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What are people valuing in boys
and kind of learning to kind of

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rein in some of that exuberance
and figure out like if I want to

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have status or power or
influence.

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If I want people to take me,
seriously, how do I need to act?

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And so they were becoming again
it was very socially adaptive in

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some way, you know, so that you
can see why why they were doing

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it.
But there is also a kind of

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sense of loss because then you
lose that hard on the sleeve.

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Kind of, you know, come as you
are, that enthused that

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unrestrained, enthusiasm and
curiosity and interest starts to

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kind of get a little bit harder
to detect, you know, not as

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obvious.
And so my, my book kind of

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documents my experience and it
wasn't that they told me this

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was happening, you know, these
are far and five-year-old, boys.

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It was that I experienced it in
interacting and have interacting

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with them and having
relationships with them.

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So I always feeling like, oh,
they're pulling away or they're

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being a little more.
Discrete or trying to be

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discreet, you know, in ways that
they weren't when yet the

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beginning of the school year.
So that kind of, so that's

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really what my book was about
was really the three.

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Main things was, first of all,
boys have these relational

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capabilities that are often
overlooked and underestimated.

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Like nobody really talks about
it because again, we tend to

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gender those things feminine
like anything.

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That's good at emotions good at
relationships because our

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00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:34,400
society genders them feminine
boys.

225
00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,800
Learn because, boys are supposed
to be quote unquote, the

226
00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,900
opposite of girls over the Is it
a feminine?

227
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,800
They learn.
Oh, I'm not supposed to show

228
00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:42,400
that as much.
And so they've learned to tone

229
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,300
it down and be a little more
selective about who they reveal

230
00:10:45,300 --> 00:10:47,400
those things too.
But they're absolutely there and

231
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,800
they don't lose those.
And then the second thing is

232
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,300
that shift that shift in Reading
those messages, about what's a

233
00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:55,500
real man.
What's a real boy or whatever

234
00:10:55,700 --> 00:10:58,900
and how they learn?
How there's a shift they learned

235
00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:02,300
to present themselves in
different ways in order to align

236
00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:05,000
with kind of societal
expectations around masculinity.

237
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,400
And but then the good news is
that they don't Bass.

238
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,600
Like I said, they don't lose
those capacities, they continue

239
00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,000
throughout their lives.
As you mentioned, even as men of

240
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,900
all ages to seek connections and
to resist disconnections.

241
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,900
And so to really acknowledge and
value that aspect of their

242
00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:24,300
humanity is kind of what my
work, tries to emphasize and

243
00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:26,700
highlight.
Because I think that sometimes

244
00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:30,000
the stereotypical discourse
around what boys and men who

245
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,500
they are, or what they're
capable of tends to discount or

246
00:11:33,500 --> 00:11:39,200
actively, you know, push it.
I need them to have feel like

247
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,100
they have to hide that or
disguise it in some way.

248
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,900
When in fact, you know, if we
think about the most successful

249
00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:47,500
leaders or the most successful
relationships, how to be a good

250
00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:49,800
partner, how to be a good
friend, how to be a good father.

251
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,100
If you have children, you know,
all these things require those

252
00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:58,600
relational capabilities to be
intact, you know, and valued and

253
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,100
able and for boys and men to
feel able to show those things.

254
00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:05,500
And so they're things that are
essential to their health,

255
00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:08,000
happiness and success.
But yet the messages that they

256
00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:11,400
They can sometimes receive about
what it means to be a real man

257
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:16,800
can create Conflict for them.
In terms of what they feel like

258
00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:19,700
they should be embarrassed by
our can't show the other people.

259
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,500
Sorry, that was a mouthful.
There's great grateful, thank

260
00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:27,200
you.
So does, does it seem to be that

261
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:28,800
the first like societal
involved?

262
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,300
But there are some you start
going to school.

263
00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:33,200
That's what that's when the
pressure to conform really kicks

264
00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,800
in.
I think I can very obviously,

265
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,200
because some people in some boys
Young Have families who are

266
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,700
like, you know, you can do
whatever you want, you can say,

267
00:12:41,700 --> 00:12:45,000
you're at home, that's fine.
Yes, and some some families

268
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,100
might be more traditional or
just have your for different

269
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,100
reasons.
Different cultural reasons,

270
00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:53,800
different values and beliefs.
I think, every parent thinks

271
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,000
that they have their kids best
interest at heart.

272
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,700
So it's just a matter of what
they think, will allow their boy

273
00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:03,400
to survive and thrive in the
world as they know it.

274
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,800
And so, I don't think any parent
goes out with the agenda to

275
00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:09,600
crush their boys.
His spirits, I think at that

276
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,500
they're saying, you know, the
world is dangerous, the world is

277
00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:16,400
not always kind when, you know,
and that was a huge dilemma

278
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,000
actually that the father's
expressed when Carol and I met

279
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,200
with the father's because we
were so struck by how tender and

280
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,800
affectionate they were when they
brought their boys in in the

281
00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,800
morning for morning drop-off.
And so Carol said, let's meet

282
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,600
with the fathers and find out
what it's like for them to, you

283
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,600
know, experience their boys at
this age you know?

284
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,700
And and the bot father's
describe this and you know

285
00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:39,800
dilemma of like on one hand
Really cherishing hoping their

286
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,100
boys never would have to lose
that exuberance, that kind of

287
00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:46,500
spunkiness that really think
just really loving to be with

288
00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:50,100
people and that up out their
nests and also wanting their

289
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:53,500
kids not to be the one who gets
targeted and bullied and, you

290
00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:56,700
know, called bad names and so
wanting to keep them safe,

291
00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,500
right?
And so there's this balance and

292
00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:01,400
it's a horrible choice, you
know, for parents and boys to

293
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,800
have to make because obviously
we'd in Ideal World, you could

294
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,000
be yourself and not have to get
punished, you know, without the

295
00:14:08,100 --> 00:14:11,800
Read or risk of punishment.
But, but they also knew, you

296
00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,600
know, unfortunately, the world
isn't quite there yet.

297
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,000
And, and people could save a
think like, this.

298
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:20,500
A, your kid loves this.
Pink dress, and wants to wear a

299
00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:22,600
pink dress to school.
Well, you could say, at home,

300
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,300
it's safe to wear this pink
dress, but at school, or in

301
00:14:25,300 --> 00:14:29,200
society, it's a toss-up, maybe
you'll find yourself in a space,

302
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:31,700
that's very accepting.
But maybe you'll find yourself

303
00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:33,800
in the space where they'll
decide, that's a really bad

304
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,000
thing.
And that's a reality as well.

305
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,000
You mentioned that, you know,
the boys.

306
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,400
Is weren't weren't speaking all
of this.

307
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,900
That would, it took the Observer
you to see some of these

308
00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:46,700
changes, but I wonder where they
aware of the pressure to, to

309
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:49,000
change at all.
I think so.

310
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,900
I mean they're aware of
expectations and assumptions,

311
00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:54,200
right?
So they know for instance, if an

312
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,300
adult says, what's okay?
With one adult versus another

313
00:14:57,300 --> 00:14:59,400
like you know, what's up?
What's okay to do with this

314
00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:01,500
teacher?
Who's maybe a little more

315
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,000
welcoming of differences and
another teacher who has more

316
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,000
firm ideas about what's a good
kid and how kids should act or

317
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:10,100
How a boy specifically should
act.

318
00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:13,100
So they weren't, you know, like
I said, very astute readers of

319
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:18,800
the people and and of each other
and they would know how to based

320
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:20,700
on what they were experiencing
and serving know how to

321
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:23,600
anticipate like, oh, look at
that kid, got pushed around or

322
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,300
got made fun of when he showed
this.

323
00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:26,600
I'm going to be careful not do
that.

324
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,400
So I would ask them things like
you know like are you ever

325
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,100
expected to actor?
Be a certain way or are there

326
00:15:32,100 --> 00:15:34,600
things that you think other
people want you to do that?

327
00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:36,800
Sometimes you are there times
when you don't really want to do

328
00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,600
them.
And what's that like And again,

329
00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,100
they were really able to
describe very clearly what was

330
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:44,900
going on from different
perspectives, you know, one boy,

331
00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:47,900
told me, you know, I'm actually
friends with all of the girls

332
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:52,000
but I don't want, you know, the
boss of the mean team which was

333
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,200
the boys team to find out
because then he'll fire me from

334
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:58,900
his club and then I won't have a
club or a team and, you know,

335
00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:00,500
and that would be a bummer, you
know.

336
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:02,800
And so they know what the
consequences are and they're

337
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,400
already starting to adjust
themselves because what

338
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,900
motivates them to even want to,
you know?

339
00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:09,900
No.
Aligned with these messages

340
00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:12,800
about what boys should be like
is that they are again that kind

341
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,000
of relational aspect of their
existence, which is that they

342
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,500
want to identify and relate to
the other boys and the other

343
00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:22,900
girl, all the kids.
But specifically they want to be

344
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:27,500
one of the boys with the boys.
And so it's a relational motive

345
00:16:28,100 --> 00:16:30,400
that drives the behavior.
Not like somebody says, oh, you

346
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:32,200
have to be a man.
And therefore, they like, okay,

347
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:34,200
in that case, I'll do this.
I mean, there has to be a

348
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,900
genuine incentive there and that
incentive is so sincere.

349
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:40,900
The motivated by their desire to
be in genuine meaningful

350
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:44,200
connection with other people.
But unfortunately a lot of the

351
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,500
messages that at least a more
kind of traditional messages

352
00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,900
that we have about masculinity,
while they are not inherently

353
00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:54,200
problematic Duke can make it
more problematic.

354
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,000
I can make it more difficult for
boys and men to establish the

355
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,700
kind of connections that have
been shown to be protective, you

356
00:17:00,708 --> 00:17:03,300
know, against psychological
risk, like, low self-esteem and

357
00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:06,000
depression.
I can social risk like, risk of

358
00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:09,000
substance use for numbing, you
know, Unintended pregnancy

359
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:12,500
school, dropout the best
protective factors having those

360
00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:16,700
authentic, Mutual relationships.
And the pathway to manhood, as

361
00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:19,700
kind of traditionally.
Spelled out really leads, boys

362
00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:21,500
and men away from that
possibility.

363
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:24,000
It makes it harder.
It doesn't make it impossible,

364
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:26,500
but it makes it harder because
in, you know, because

365
00:17:26,500 --> 00:17:29,000
relationships depend on how you
are present in that

366
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,600
relationship.
And if you can't be

367
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,700
authentically present, then
those, those authentic

368
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,200
relationships are just that much
more difficult to come by,

369
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:37,900
right?
Yeah, it's such this.

370
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:41,700
This horrible Twisted scenario
that even at a young age, at

371
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:45,400
every age men are longing for
connection for Community but

372
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:47,600
they these communities and
connections are built to Ron

373
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,900
wearing these masks.
And I so I knew that was the

374
00:17:51,908 --> 00:17:54,300
case.
I had didn't know it started so

375
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,200
young.
I really thought there was more

376
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,800
kind of, you know, come on in.
You know, that again, the

377
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,700
teenager prohibitive start
putting, which mask should I

378
00:18:02,708 --> 00:18:03,900
wear today and how can I fit
into?

379
00:18:03,900 --> 00:18:07,200
Not be noticed, but that it
happens in preschool is just

380
00:18:08,300 --> 00:18:11,100
It's very saddening.
It is, it is.

381
00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:13,200
And actually I just remembered
what your original question was

382
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,000
was like, how early is it
happening?

383
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:18,500
And so, it can happen even
earlier than preschool if

384
00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:21,700
they're hearing that they're
having during those messages and

385
00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:24,700
feeling those pressures, even
earlier, if they happen to be in

386
00:18:24,700 --> 00:18:27,200
an household or just an
environment that says, you know,

387
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,500
this is for boys.
And this is not for boys, then

388
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:32,400
they're going to learn that too,
you know?

389
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,700
And so when they, when I went at
the zoo, actually heard a

390
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:40,600
parent, tell their baby, B Boys
Don't Cry and I was like that's

391
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,200
how babies Express themselves.
I think I'm not sure what you

392
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,400
want this baby to do other than
cry and so you know sometimes

393
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,100
the messages are a little bit
silly because you know that's

394
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:55,000
just how it is opening every
show you open.

395
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,100
Like yeah.
So many men are taught not to be

396
00:18:57,100 --> 00:19:00,900
human right and it's horrible.
It's you know it's what creates

397
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:04,600
this, this layer upon layer of
fakeness and in authenticity and

398
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,700
trying to pretend to get it all
figured out and we don't need

399
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:09,000
anybody's help.
And it couldn't be further from

400
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,600
the truth.
Exactly.

401
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,800
Because nobody succeeds alone
and life is hard and we need

402
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,700
people.
And to deprive anyone of those

403
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:22,700
resources that are so essential
is like I said it's really sad

404
00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:26,300
and it and we really put boys
and men in a difficult situation

405
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:31,000
when we don't like I think I've
compared it to like you know,

406
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,300
binding someone's arms and legs
and throwing them in a pool and

407
00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:36,700
saying swim swim and you're
like, okay but let's not you

408
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:38,600
know, create Necessary
obstacles.

409
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:40,600
When life is hard enough as it
is.

410
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:41,700
Yeah.
Right.

411
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,000
Go survive but without all the
tools possible.

412
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:45,600
Exactly.
Yeah.

413
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:50,000
And I love you call it the rules
for engagement earlier those

414
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,400
like never heard that saying,
even again at such a young age

415
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,200
and the Rules of Engagement for
acting like a man or acting like

416
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,900
a real boy.
It's, you know, I thought the

417
00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:00,400
only time I've heard real boy,
was, you know, for Pinocchio or

418
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:01,900
something.
I didn't realize they, would

419
00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:04,600
they do that?
This unsaid pressure to even at

420
00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,300
such young ages.
So, so we know you started

421
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:10,000
Interviewing in this study
started talking to boys at age

422
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,300
4.
So, how long did you?

423
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:14,300
Did you stick with this group of
boys with that particular

424
00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:18,200
goodbye, followed them weekly
for the first year and actually

425
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,100
weekly for the second year to so
Pre-K and kindergarten and then

426
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:25,500
and then I came back and visited
a couple years later to check in

427
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,900
with them.
I think it, that was third grade

428
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:31,300
2nd or 3rd grade, just to kind
of see, you know, how things had

429
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,900
progressed.
And then I, after I wrote my

430
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:36,700
book came out, they were much
older and I shared the book when

431
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:38,100
I gave coffee.
Because of the book to their

432
00:20:38,100 --> 00:20:40,600
family, they said, oh some of
them are nearby.

433
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,300
Why don't you call them up?
And so I actually had coffee

434
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:45,400
with one of them who was, you
know, now the way taller than

435
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,000
me, 64 people or and just kind
of asked him what, you know

436
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,700
what, he remembered.
And also I always love to check

437
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:53,800
in with my with the boys who are
generous enough to, you know,

438
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:55,900
talk to me like you what did I
miss?

439
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:58,400
You know what did I not get?
And so for instance one of the

440
00:20:58,408 --> 00:21:01,700
boys told me oh one of the
things I didn't get at was how

441
00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:04,600
close he was with his brother
and how important that

442
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,300
relationship was precisely
because some of the peer.

443
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:10,400
Just were so challenging and so
he said it would have been nice

444
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,600
if you could have observed us at
home to or something.

445
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:16,800
And of course, you know, the
study is constrained in a lot of

446
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,000
ways.
And one of the ways with, I

447
00:21:18,008 --> 00:21:21,700
mean, I did make home visits to
some of the boys families who

448
00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:24,600
invited me to come over and see
what their family was like at

449
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,200
home.
But, you know, definitely,

450
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,100
that's that's a very valid point
and he and his brother continue

451
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:31,500
to be very close.
And they were, you know, always

452
00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:34,800
there for each other when
sometimes the supports in their

453
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,200
peer or other school in a school
at The Network's didn't went

454
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,000
there in the ways that they
needed them to be.

455
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,900
So totally, at least at least
for some siblings.

456
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,500
They didn't have to wear that
mask.

457
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:47,100
Exactly.
Exactly.

458
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:49,600
And it's so important to have
those spaces, you know?

459
00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:53,000
I mean there's this one study
that was the Adolescent health

460
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,600
study that was started in the
ninth mid 1990s and was

461
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,800
longitudinal and that they're
the ones who found that the

462
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,500
single best protector against
those risks.

463
00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:03,600
That I mentioned, the
psychological reason socialist

464
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,300
because having access to at
least one close confiding

465
00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:09,000
relationship, so that Could be
with a sibling, it could be with

466
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,100
a friend, with a teacher, a
parent, a mentor.

467
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:14,100
I could be with anyone but kids
and adolescents who had at least

468
00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:17,800
one were much better protected
against kind of the risks that

469
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,800
can befall our kids, as they're
going through, you know, the

470
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,100
various challenges of life.
I wonder what stood out to you

471
00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:27,600
as the most surprising thing
from from all this.

472
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,500
All this research would boys.
And I think, but what my, what

473
00:22:32,500 --> 00:22:36,000
my partner's is he was, he's
always, says, hit the thing that

474
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,200
strikes him is that they talk to
me at all.

475
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,000
You know, I'm this, you know,
there are many strikes against

476
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:44,900
me, I was older.
I'm, I'm female identifying.

477
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:47,500
And and sometimes and in the
beginning, when I was, you know,

478
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:49,400
kind of observing from a
distance and trying to give them

479
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,900
their space and allowing them to
approach me as I felt

480
00:22:51,900 --> 00:22:54,100
comfortable.
There is a lot of, you know kind

481
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:59,200
of fun around no adults or no
girls are no teachers and so it

482
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,400
kind of Negotiating that but
what I guess what surprised me

483
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,900
was the fact that they
eventually once they figured out

484
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:08,000
they could trust me that I
wasn't going to tell on them

485
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,900
that I was really interested in
learning from them that I and I

486
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,400
would tell them things like, you
know, because I was a girl, when

487
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,800
I was younger I don't know what
it's like to be a boy.

488
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,500
And so I'd really like to learn
and I would love to learn that

489
00:23:18,500 --> 00:23:21,100
from you, then they felt like,
oh, okay.

490
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:23,900
Then you need to know this and I
got to tell you about this and

491
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,900
sometimes they would like kind
of pull on my like, pulling my

492
00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:28,500
shirt tail and be like, Oh, come
over here.

493
00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:30,300
I got to tell you what.
Yesterday.

494
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,300
And so I felt again so lucky and
so grateful that they wanted to

495
00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:39,600
tell me these things and just
felt like how fun is this, you

496
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,600
know, I mean finding the sense
that you know, getting to hang

497
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:47,400
out with them but also also kind
of being having the privilege of

498
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,600
kind of documenting that so that
other people could see.

499
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,600
Look at what they can do, look
at what they're capable of

500
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,300
knowing and doing their
relationships.

501
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,900
So definitely those stereotypes
about, we know what they're

502
00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:58,800
like, and they're not being have
not having the capacity or

503
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,800
desire for real.
Leadership, that's all, you

504
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,000
know, not true.
So obviously not true because

505
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:05,600
they really are eager to
connect.

506
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,200
They absolutely have the
capacity and desire to do so and

507
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,300
when they do I mean they they
are so appealing and so

508
00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:16,400
interesting and fun to be with
and there's so much to learn

509
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,300
from them.
I think originally my study was

510
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:22,000
called learning what boys.
No or listening to boys voices.

511
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,300
I played around with different
titles because I'm like this is

512
00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:28,100
what I'm doing and and and it's
not just it's not like something

513
00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,000
that was special or unique.
To me, I think that anyone who

514
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,300
it shows, a genuine shows up
with authenticity, the way that

515
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:37,700
you do and really shows a
genuine interest in learning,

516
00:24:37,700 --> 00:24:40,500
boys can tell them, you know,
all about their lives and what

517
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:42,900
they need and what's going on
for them.

518
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,100
So what sort of masculine Norms
are there for a boy in

519
00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:50,200
kindergarten?
Well, there were all sorts of

520
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:52,200
the boys.
Actually, they were so clever.

521
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,800
They created this club called
the mean team to identify your.

522
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,300
So, all of the boy, when I've
asked them things like, what do

523
00:24:58,300 --> 00:24:59,500
I need to do?
What would I have to do?

524
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:00,900
If I wanted to be a boy, they
say.

525
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:03,000
Well, first of all, you'd have
to be a member of the mean team.

526
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,200
Because the mean team is for all
of the boys.

527
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,400
And if you are a girl, then
you'd be on the nice team and I

528
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,200
said, oh okay.
But the thing is, you can get

529
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,200
fired from the mean team and end
up on the nice team.

530
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,300
If you break one of the rules
for the, like I said, the rules,

531
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:20,500
For engagement.
So like if you're friends with

532
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:23,000
the girls or if you like games
that the girl, you know, if you

533
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,200
play with dolls, the way that
only girls are supposed to play

534
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,200
with dolls or or if you or
sometimes it was even stuff that

535
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,800
was not necessarily
transgressing in terms of doing

536
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,000
something that was considered
feminine.

537
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,900
But if you didn't obey what the
boss of the mean team was doing,

538
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:37,500
so it if you didn't play along
with the hierarchy that had been

539
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:40,300
established, among the boys,
that could also get you in

540
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:42,200
trouble.
And sometimes it was nice stuff

541
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,800
too.
Like if you didn't, if you

542
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,400
excluded someone, you could get
fired from the mean t.

543
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,400
And so it was just this
interesting thing to kind of

544
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,500
Keep things feeling safe and
more under control.

545
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:55,300
And so they gets to creating a
sense of certainty and

546
00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:57,600
predictability.
Like, if there were these rules

547
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,800
and you follow them then you
could continue, you know with

548
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,300
your membership you can contain
have this sense of acceptance

549
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:06,300
and belonging and you know, when
I ask one of the boys that girl,

550
00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:08,300
what are some of the benefits
and what are the good things

551
00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:11,000
about being on it, he would say
like well, you know, if you have

552
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,200
trouble doing something then all
of the boys would come to your

553
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,500
assistance.
You know, they would come and

554
00:26:15,500 --> 00:26:18,300
help you do it and so you
wouldn't have to be alone but it

555
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,500
I always came back to like so
there is no it's just motivation

556
00:26:21,500 --> 00:26:24,500
like even and even when I said
like, oh well, what is what

557
00:26:24,500 --> 00:26:26,100
would be mean?
What's something that's mean?

558
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:28,100
Like was it actually about
cruelty was what kind of what I

559
00:26:28,108 --> 00:26:30,400
was getting at.
And it wasn't it was more about

560
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,500
like mischief and because again,
because they had read the read

561
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:36,600
the signs.
So to speak like, oh, well, boys

562
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,200
are supposed to be rambunctious
or mr.

563
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,100
Bissell.
They felt like, you know,

564
00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:41,500
sometimes the girls are playing
a nice quiet game and you'll

565
00:26:41,500 --> 00:26:43,900
come over and you kind of run
around them and yell and scream.

566
00:26:43,900 --> 00:26:47,200
That kind of thing was was mean,
it wasn't about hurting people.

567
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,300
And in fact, when He's gonna lie
in your somebody accidentally

568
00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:52,100
got hurt.
You know, one of the boys told

569
00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:53,800
me, I don't really want to be a
part of that.

570
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,200
That's not really something that
I want to do.

571
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,600
And so you know, feeling
conflicted, if things did get,

572
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:02,300
you know, to the point where
they were, you know,

573
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:06,500
accidentally hurting somebody,
you know, because again, the

574
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:09,600
four year olds, they're not out
to, they're not really out to,

575
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:13,100
you know, Express anything
that's you know that we would

576
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:17,000
consider cruel or aggressive.
It wasn't a full-on Lord of the

577
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,300
Flies experience.
This mean, Team yet.

578
00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:21,400
No, no, no.
For sure, not.

579
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,900
So did you notice and did the
boys notice?

580
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:28,400
Was there any sort of price to
pay like what was lost for?

581
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:33,000
Not engaging with the nice team?
Absolutely, for not engaging

582
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,100
with a nice team.
I think, you know like that.

583
00:27:36,100 --> 00:27:39,700
One boy said he actually enjoyed
playing with the girls

584
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:42,300
sometimes, you know, one of the
girls was really into Star Wars

585
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:45,600
which had its, you know, second
video Star Wars first came out

586
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,700
when I was five and then when
these kids were five, it kind of

587
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:49,900
made me realize Surfaced.
And so they were like she was

588
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:52,200
totally into Star Wars knew all
the characters and he thought

589
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,200
she was pretty cool and fun and
she's had cold toy Studio

590
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,700
Millennium Falcon obviously.
And so he wanted to play with

591
00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:01,200
her and he would have play dates
with her but that was the thing

592
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,400
where he didn't want the other
boys to find out because he was

593
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,100
afraid of you know, breaking the
rule and then getting fired from

594
00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:10,500
the mean team.
But that there were consequences

595
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:11,600
to.
Like I said, you know when I

596
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,500
when you know, why I was saying
that that one boy said the

597
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:16,700
advantage was if you needed
help, they would help you.

598
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:19,300
They had your back so to speak.
If You know, the way that older

599
00:28:19,300 --> 00:28:21,800
boys will talk about it, but the
disadvantages, he goes well,

600
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,300
sometimes they want to do things
and I don't want to do them.

601
00:28:24,300 --> 00:28:27,500
Like, for instance, the example
of hurting somebody, like, you

602
00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:30,100
know, one, one boy said, oh
let's go over and you know,

603
00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:32,800
throw these leaves on there,
whatever.

604
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,300
And he's like he didn't really
want to do that or another time

605
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:40,100
he they wanted to play soccer
and he wanted to play basketball

606
00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:41,700
but he felt like he couldn't do
that.

607
00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:44,800
And so she said sometimes I want
to make my own decisions and I

608
00:28:44,808 --> 00:28:47,600
said well why don't what makes
it hard to do that and he said

609
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,200
well because then I You that,
you know, they'll they'll all

610
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,200
gang up and come after me.
So, kind of deviating or being

611
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,800
different.
Could result in everybody else

612
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,900
deciding.
Oh, you're not with us after

613
00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:01,300
all.
So we're going to team up and be

614
00:29:01,300 --> 00:29:03,500
against you.
And so, they were again, very

615
00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:07,600
aware of what the consequences
were of stepping of

616
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,400
nonconformity, right?
Or stepping outside of the group

617
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,900
norm.
And, you know, and the been

618
00:29:13,900 --> 00:29:15,800
those, they knew it wasn't all
good at knew.

619
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:17,500
It wasn't all bad.
So, even the boy said to me,

620
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:20,400
because I see, It's so overall
do you like being on it?

621
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,100
He goes well I kind of do but I
kind of don't and so they could

622
00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:27,400
express that kind of feeling
divided.

623
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,000
You know, they wanted the sense
of group membership but they

624
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,600
also felt that you know it did
limit their freedom and their

625
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,000
choices and sometimes they
didn't want to do what the mean

626
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,000
team was doing.
But they felt like, oh well I

627
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,700
have to.
So do you find that masculine

628
00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:43,900
qualities are more innate or
learned?

629
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:49,900
I think.
Given that what's considered

630
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:54,100
masculine varies across
cultures, I think that each

631
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:59,000
culture or subculture decides
what they value in boys and men,

632
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,300
and then encourage that.
And so I think that individuals

633
00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:06,900
are born with temperaments and
predispositions.

634
00:30:06,900 --> 00:30:09,300
You know each of us is unique in
that sense, right?

635
00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:12,300
And so you could have you know
what we would call a tangra

636
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:15,200
tomboy, right?
You could have a girl be very

637
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,300
masculine but and you could say
that that Rate USA.

638
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:21,200
She's really tough and strong
and loves to play.

639
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,000
And because our society, decides
that physical toughness and

640
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,500
strength is a masculine thing,
you could say that she's very

641
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:27,800
masculine.
You could even say that those

642
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,800
qualities in her or those skills
were innate, but I don't know

643
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,700
that it's but that's kind of
socially constructed and

644
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:37,200
determined.
You know what I mean?

645
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,200
She could just as well, you
know, it another culture.

646
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,500
Like, let's say we had there's a
culture where that kind of

647
00:30:43,508 --> 00:30:47,400
physical strength, wasn't
specific specimen specific to a

648
00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:50,400
Under then you could still say
it would still be an eight but

649
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,700
it wouldn't be considered
innately masculine right?

650
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:56,600
And so it does that make sense?
Like so kind of we assign what

651
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,200
we decide is masculine or
feminine, but there's definitely

652
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,800
things qualities, personality
traits, whatever skills

653
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:08,000
interests that are innate that
then Society deems gem feminine

654
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,400
or masculine.
Yeah I got it.

655
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:10,300
No it does make sense.
Yeah.

656
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:14,300
Think things are innate but then
the labels are not exactly

657
00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:16,800
exactly.
You said it so much better than

658
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,200
I do.
To write concisely and clearly

659
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:21,800
thank you.
So, based on all your

660
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,300
interviews, everything that
you've witnessed and picked up

661
00:31:24,300 --> 00:31:27,800
from, from boys, and from their
fathers, from their parents.

662
00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:32,000
What's your kind of best advice
for parents with who have young

663
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:37,100
boys now?
Josh, I think I think the again

664
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:39,900
Takei because I love I love that
they call you the king of

665
00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:42,700
authenticity because I think
that that's really Central.

666
00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:47,400
I usually when I give advice and
I'm hesitant to do so because

667
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,500
I'm not a perfect parent myself.
But the things that I strive for

668
00:31:51,500 --> 00:31:55,300
our, this kind of authenticity
that is not about being perfect

669
00:31:55,300 --> 00:31:58,500
far from it.
And I find that kids really feel

670
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:02,000
reassured and relieved to know
that they had.

671
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,700
I mean, obviously, you don't And
it everything to be chaotic all

672
00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:07,900
the time, but they like to know
that it's okay to make mistakes

673
00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:11,100
that even adults don't always
know and to do it in a way

674
00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:13,900
that's kind of reassures them
that we're going to help you

675
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:17,000
through this but we can't
guarantee anything and that's

676
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,200
okay.
Life is just like that.

677
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,000
Then they don't feel like
failures when they come across

678
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,900
their own limitations or when
they make their own mistakes,

679
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:27,100
you know?
And so when and so I guess the

680
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:30,500
advice I usually pass along
because it's what I heard from

681
00:32:30,500 --> 00:32:32,100
the fathers and mothers of these
boys.

682
00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:34,300
Because eventually the mothers
when Heard that we were meeting

683
00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:36,500
with a father so they're like,
well we want to talk to you too

684
00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:40,000
and we want to meet to so.
But it's really about, you know,

685
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,600
showing up as you know, as
humbly and as authentically as

686
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,900
you can, you know, and sometimes
being like, you know, that's a

687
00:32:47,908 --> 00:32:50,000
good question or that that's a
real problem.

688
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,000
And sometimes, you know, like
when father said, you know, his

689
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,800
son wanted to know, you know,
what our friendships about.

690
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,800
You know, what's that about?
What are your friends like, what

691
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,100
do you like about that?
Or what is it?

692
00:32:58,100 --> 00:32:59,900
When we get angry?
Because we get really angry

693
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:01,500
sometimes and what do we do with
that?

694
00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:04,100
And to have someone say, No.
Yeah.

695
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:06,100
Of course, you're going to feel
these things and there are

696
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:08,100
better ways and worse ways to
express them.

697
00:33:08,100 --> 00:33:10,300
And so let's talk about that.
And what do you think about and

698
00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:13,000
having that conversation?
I think a lot of times that's

699
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,500
parents we feel like we need to
be perfect and we need to show

700
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,200
up as perfect in order to make
our kids feel safe.

701
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:24,000
But I think that ironically,
it's when we are appropriately

702
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,300
authentic.
Does that make sense?

703
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,100
Like we, we don't want to burden
them with our troubles but we

704
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:33,100
it's fine to let them know that.
Yeah, we're struggling to work.

705
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,200
Certainly figuring things out.
Things are scary to us, too.

706
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,100
And this is what we do and we'll
figure it out together.

707
00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:43,000
I feel like and so I usually say
start with listening right?

708
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,500
Start to listening start with
listening so that you can find

709
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:47,700
first of all, figure out what
exactly they're asking because

710
00:33:47,700 --> 00:33:51,500
we I also jump to conclusions
like I hear this like oh,

711
00:33:51,900 --> 00:33:54,400
they're asking about Gunplay for
instance, I'm like, oh no, you

712
00:33:54,408 --> 00:33:56,900
know, there's this like
automatic slippery slope to does

713
00:33:56,900 --> 00:33:58,800
this mean they're going to be
violent and aggressive but we're

714
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,600
just wondering what it is you
know and and at what I think

715
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,200
observed with the boys in my
Class Act.

716
00:34:03,300 --> 00:34:05,500
And that in that particular
class actually, was at the

717
00:34:05,500 --> 00:34:08,800
Gunplay didn't for the boys
carry any of the negative

718
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,699
connotations.
It was just a way for them to

719
00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:13,699
instantly relate to the other
boys, not because boys have to

720
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:16,400
play with guns, but because the
boys in this class happened to

721
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,900
play with guns.
And so if they said, oh look,

722
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:21,000
here's a Lego.
Whatever gun.

723
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,500
I see it.
You see it, cool.

724
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:26,000
We both see it, right?
But then actually that year one

725
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,400
of the school shootings happened
and that was obviously scary to

726
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,900
them.
And when that happened, they

727
00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:33,199
stop playing with the guns
because they hadn't.

728
00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:36,900
Is how guns her people.
So you know, then you realize

729
00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:39,000
oh, it's I think that it's the
same thing that, you know,

730
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,400
adults do with Barbies and
girls.

731
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,300
I like, oh no.
She likes Barbie.

732
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:44,300
That means she's going to have
body image issues, or she's

733
00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:46,800
going to think that this is the
only one way to be beautiful or

734
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,600
whatever.
And so adults have a lot of

735
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,699
connotations and to kind of stop
ourselves from going down our

736
00:34:51,699 --> 00:34:54,900
own Paths of associations and
check in with the kid.

737
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,400
And so, again, starting with
listening seeing what their

738
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,000
questions really are and not
necessarily feeling like we have

739
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,800
to have the answers but just
being with them in the question

740
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,500
or something.
As being with them in the

741
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:07,100
struggle, like sometimes
something hurts and you know,

742
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:09,900
friend doesn't want to be your
friend anymore and that sucks.

743
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,200
And you're like, yeah, I get
that.

744
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,100
And they don't want you to solve
it for them because then it

745
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:15,400
almost feels like it.
Trivializing the problem like,

746
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,700
oh, there was a simple solution
and why don't you just do this

747
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:21,500
but sometimes they just want
someone to hear it and to know

748
00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:23,200
what their understand what
they're going through.

749
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,500
The boys have said themselves,
you know, just that sense that

750
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,900
someone else knows what you're
going through and understands

751
00:35:28,900 --> 00:35:32,000
because it's just they said,
it's just kind of comforting and

752
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,000
I think that's what I think
that's among the best things

753
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,200
that adults can provide you as
parents or teachers or anyone

754
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:43,100
wanting to support Boys and Men
actually because, you know, that

755
00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:45,800
I hear that an adult
relationships often to like know

756
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,500
what, you don't need to fix
anything.

757
00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:50,700
Just listen to what I have to
say and let it just be.

758
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,300
But yeah, so many people keep
things pent-up and but

759
00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:58,000
especially men were part of the
part of our training fix things,

760
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,300
take action drive forward and so
it can be tough to just oh I

761
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:03,700
just have to nod.
That's the Tenth of the

762
00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:04,600
interaction.
You want from me?

763
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,300
Okay, I can do that, right?
And it's so well intentioned,

764
00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:08,500
right?
Our hearts are in the right

765
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:10,700
place and we see someone we care
about hurting.

766
00:36:10,700 --> 00:36:13,800
We want to fix it for them but
then sometimes if we can remind

767
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,400
ourselves like when were hurting
do we want someone to offer you?

768
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:22,200
No Simple Solutions or sometimes
and so it's a constant practice,

769
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,500
right?
I find it myself too because I'm

770
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:27,400
a fixer to and when somebody
presents a problem like oh my

771
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,000
gosh what can I do to help you
make it better?

772
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:33,900
And some things just you know,
you can't He can't.

773
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,700
All you can do is be there and
let them know, you know, you're

774
00:36:36,700 --> 00:36:39,700
with them, you understand?
And you know, that it's going to

775
00:36:39,700 --> 00:36:42,300
get better with time righty.
So yeah.

776
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,900
So there was a great example.
You said you were a fixer, and

777
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:49,700
I'm used to fixer being labeled
as masculine and so wanting to

778
00:36:49,707 --> 00:36:51,500
fix.
Things can be an 8 and then

779
00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:54,200
Society goes and blows it and
gives it some other label and,

780
00:36:54,300 --> 00:36:56,400
you know, Conformity or
nonconformity or whatever it

781
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,600
might be, but great and that's
related to those masks you're

782
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,900
talking about, right?
Because if we could just come

783
00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:05,200
and show up as we are With the
whole range of human emotions.

784
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:06,800
How freeing would that be,
right?

785
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,000
There's no constraint like, oh,
if you like this, or you do that

786
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:11,800
or you have this skill or
interest then?

787
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,100
Well, you can't have that
because that's a, that's the

788
00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:16,200
wrong category.
That's not the category you were

789
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,500
assigned.
It's just like, it's really

790
00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:22,200
arbitrary and it's unnecessary.
I think that if we could just

791
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,500
relax those a little bit and
it's that people come as they

792
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:28,600
are and say that, you know,
that's fine, that's great.

793
00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:32,100
You know, we really need people
to be different and to bring

794
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:35,100
different skills and
perspectives and opinions to

795
00:37:35,100 --> 00:37:38,200
make Society richer.
I think that's deaf all ways a

796
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,700
plus.
And so why why flatten everybody

797
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:43,000
into, you know, one or the
other?

798
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,500
When there's so much more that
we can offer individually?

799
00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:48,800
If we're allowed to kind of do
the things we most feel

800
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,600
passionately about and are good
at, don't agree.

801
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:56,600
More awesome, Judy, I find you
and your work, fascinating.

802
00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,000
I really want to thank you for
joining us today.

803
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:02,000
What's the best way for people
to learn more about everything

804
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,300
that you're up to?
Oh my goodness.

805
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:10,700
Well I have I have a very
informal webpage, it's through

806
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:13,300
WordPress and I think it's in
the bayou that you included in

807
00:38:13,300 --> 00:38:16,900
the description for this should
have it memorized but I don't

808
00:38:16,900 --> 00:38:22,200
and if they want to reach me I'm
on LinkedIn and that's a good

809
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:24,900
way to message me and then I can
provide them with my email that

810
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:27,200
way.
And so I'm happy to, you know,

811
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,100
if I can be of help please reach
out and happy to do.

812
00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:32,400
So, right.
Thanks again for joining us to

813
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:32,900
D.
Thanks.

814
00:38:33,100 --> 00:38:36,400
To everyone for listening and
finding us and please visit real

815
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:37,400
men.
Feel that org, there will be a

816
00:38:37,408 --> 00:38:40,000
blog post for this episode will
have links to all the books and

817
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,700
resources mentioned and wherever
you're discovering real.

818
00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:45,600
Men, feel, please give a like,
subscribe, share this episode

819
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,100
with someone that would find
Value in it, which is everybody.

820
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,100
And you can always reach out to
me at real men.

821
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:53,700
Feel at gmail.com, always glad
to hear from you.

822
00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:56,100
And if you're not yet in the
real men, feel private Facebook

823
00:38:56,100 --> 00:38:59,300
group, there is one, and you can
get there right away by

824
00:38:59,300 --> 00:39:01,600
visiting, real men, feel dot org
slash group.

825
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,900
And until next time, be good to
yourself and the little boys in

826
00:39:05,908 --> 00:39:07,700
your life be well.