The Secret Struggles of Successful Men: From Isolation to Connection

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When I had so much pain and when
I was so sick and tired of being

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sick and tired that I started to
ask for help and and it's at

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that moment where everything
changed do.

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You think we can ever get to a a
place, a society, a time that

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men don't need to hit rock
bottom?

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That we don't need to be in so
much pain before we raise that

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hand tip for help.
I really hope so, Andy.

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Hello, Welcome to Real Men
Field.

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I'm your host Andy Green.
This is the show where we

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explore the evolving face of
masculinity and what it means to

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be authentic, open and fully
alive for men today.

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Today I'm joined by Nick
Johnson, a Ted X speaker #1

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International best selling
author and a leading voice on

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executive mental health and male
isolation.

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Nick knows first hand how
success on the outside can hide

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deep loneliness on the inside.
In our conversation, we dive

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into the hidden struggles of
high performing men, the stigma

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around vulnerability, how we can
all build a more connected,

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emotionally honest lives.
And if you crave more real

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connection with other men, check
out Authentic AF, my free online

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community at
realmenfield.org/group.

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You don't have to go it alone,
let's do it.

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Hello Nick, and welcome to Real
Men Field.

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Thank you so much and it's great
to be here.

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So, Nick, I really got to start
with your start What, What in

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your life prompted you to speak
so openly about loneliness and

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isolation for men?
Well, it was out of desperation,

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actually.
I went through a very nasty

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divorce, 2015 to 18, and I
grinded through that in

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isolation myself.
And then I hit rock bottom and

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it's from there.
I sort of came out of the ashes

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and rebuilt my life.
So you had a successful life,

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career, status, all the outwards
visibility of success.

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So what was going on inside you
during those darkest times?

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Yeah, I would say that, you
know, I was in a job that

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perhaps was a bit bigger than I
was ready for.

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I had pushed really hard.
I wanted the promotions, I

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wanted the bonuses and
everything else, and I pushed

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for it.
But I wasn't open, I wasn't

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vulnerable about the part, the
parts of the job where I fell

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short.
I was doing really well in

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business development, in the
sales and so on.

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But the back office, the numbers
and so on, I wasn't on top of.

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But I was too scared to ask my
boss for help there.

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And that eventually led me to
making some mistakes and

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eventually my resignation from a
job that I loved and a place

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where I should have stayed if I
had to.

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Had to got to ask for help.
Why do you think so many high

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achieving men in particular
struggle with vulnerability and

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asking for help?
Yeah, it's a great question,

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Andy, and it's something that I,
I keep asking myself as well,

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because in that particular job,
I actually knew the boss very

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well.
I was home at her place on

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Sundays having barbecues.
You know, we were quite open

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with ourselves and she was also
hiring me twice in my life.

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So we had a very good open
relationship.

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However, I focused the
conversations on making sure

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that I look good.
I focused on impressing her and

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making sure that she felt
comfortable knowing that I had

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her back, that there was no
problems with me.

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So I just didn't feel safe to
open up and and asking for help.

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Instead, I tried to impress her
and I did the same behaviour

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with a mentor.
I had.

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A mentor also had ten years more
experience than me in the

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company and I did the same with
him.

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I tried to impress him, making
sure that, you know, I would get

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the next promotion, that I would
get the bonuses.

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And again, I was too scared to
open up to him about the

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challenges.
I thought that maybe if I'd

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share this, then maybe I'm not
going to get the next role,

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which is I want.
And I think it's also an issue

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of how society is set up because
I really elbowed my way sort of

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up the corporate ladder and
everyone is playing the game and

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no one actually, or my
colleagues even was vulnerable.

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So it's the, at least in the
companies I worked, it was the

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company culture that was set up
for this.

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So what finally happened then
had you crack open and share

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yourself?
Yeah, it, it was only after I

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had resigned and after I had
resigned from the job, people

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start to ask me, you know, Nick,
why did you resign from this

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job?
You're doing well and so on.

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And I didn't give them any
honest answers.

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It was due to my insecurities
because I start to have panic

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attacks thinking that I'd done
something wrong, but in truth

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that it was the the challenges
of my insecurities that led to

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resignation, nothing else.
But I didn't want to share that.

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So I said I'm paying that I'm
going to start up my own

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business, I'm going to invest in
some startups and so on.

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And I painted this picture.
And once I've then found myself

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outside of this paid job, yes, I
did invest my money, but it also

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was poorly invested and I lost
everything and I almost ended up

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bankrupt.
And then due to that also filed

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for divorce for my ex-wife.
We had a marriage of 13 years

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and when she started to question
me, I wasn't ready for any

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conversation.
So if that was how it was going

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to be then I filed for a
divorce.

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That's easier than explain
myself.

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And then I basically for three
years just jumped from job to

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job and kept failing everything
and drinking more, gaining more

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weight until I found myself
basically at what I call rock

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bottom.
And it's from there when I had

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so much pain and when I was so
sick and tired of being sick and

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tired that I started to ask for
help.

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And and it's at that moment
where everything changed do.

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You think we can ever get to a
place, a society, a time that

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men don't need to hit rock
bottom?

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That we don't need to be in so
much pain before we raise that

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hand tip for help.
I really hope so, Andy and I, I

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know that you're also talking
about men and you're talking

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about the men to be more open
and so on and creating safe

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spaces.
And that's something that I do

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in my part of the world as well.
I spend most of my time in

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Southeast Asia.
I run a men's group where we

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share and we practice to being
more open and vulnerable.

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We practice getting some trust
between US and we can build up

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these these vulnerabilities in
normal times.

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It doesn't have to be when it's
a big life crisis.

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One example of this in my men's
group now, there's one man who

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just lost his mother this week.
And of course it's heartbreaking

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for him.
But he says thanks to him being

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part of this group for 3-4
months where he already sort of

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opened up, he is now opening up.
He's sharing with me, he's

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sharing with the men's group,
he's sharing with his wife, he's

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sharing with his sister.
He's talking more not only about

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the logistics but also his
feelings and acknowledging the

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feelings of others.
So I do believe we can do that.

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We need to be proactive and we
need to have these safe spaces

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and offer them an encouragement
to learn to speak about their

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their feelings.
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

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And I, I, I know sobriety was a
big part of your journey.

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So how did getting sober reshape
perhaps your your approach to

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leadership and even masculinity
itself?

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Yeah, so sobriety is is a big
thing in my life.

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It's almost like my second
birthday.

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That of course, it's really a
different way of living for me.

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And it's twofold.
Firstly, then I actually learnt

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the, the, the to ask for help
through one or the 12 step

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programmes which is set up for
that, where you then get support

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by someone who's been there
before.

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And it is in those rooms that
for the first time in my life, I

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heard men being there was women
there as well in some of the

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meetings, some were men's groups
only.

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But when people actually were
honest, they spoke about their

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challenges, the mistakes, the
failures of their life without

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shame and guilt.
And I start to feel safe to then

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take ownership for my my
mistakes in my life, the issues

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that I had been facing and what
have happened to me.

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And step by step, I start to
share.

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So that was really what happened
then that I started to open up.

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That was the one thing.
The second thing of course,

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being more physically and
mentally health and emotionally

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healthy has made a huge impact
on my life as well.

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Yeah, I know.
In my experience, for me, what

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what made me open and share more
was that the first time I did do

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that, I wasn't mocked.
People didn't run away.

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You know, that was my biggest
fear.

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If someone knew how badly I felt
that they would just, they would

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just flee, they'd run for the
hills.

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So is that the, is that kind of
was that one of the powers of of

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a men's group giving you that,
that practice that you mentioned

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earlier?
Yeah, absolutely.

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And in the men's group typically
we perhaps share what is most

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challenging one-on-one first.
And these days also, I'm, I'm a

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coach and a mentor, some of the
men, so some of them might have

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a one-on-one conversation with
them first, prepare them and get

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them to practice and be
comfortable just sharing with

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me.
And then typically I ask them if

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there's someone else in their
family or someone closer than

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they can share it with.
Perhaps it's a friend, perhaps

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it's a wife or a brother and a
sister that they can share

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whatever challenge they're going
through and talk about it.

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And once they've done that,
perhaps they then over a week

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have spoken to 2-3 people.
Then on the next manuscript

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meeting, we have a say.
We do be ready now to share

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that.
And that's typically how it

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goes.
It's a quite a big step for

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someone who perhaps is new into
men's group to come in and share

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some of the biggest challenges
they're facing if they haven't

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done that before.
And that is more common than

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not.
I would say the most men that

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I'm facing and most are
Europeans of from America, but

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working as experts in Asia,
that's my circle and they have

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perhaps moved away from the
family and then keeping the

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distance and not used to being
open and vulnerable with them.

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So what are some other unique
pressures and challenges that

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male executives have that that
most people probably don't

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realize?
Yeah, I, I believe, you know,

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being an executive can be quite
lonely, especially these days.

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There's so many changes in the
workplace, there's so many

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insecurities, there's so much
disruptions, and therefore you

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never feel safe.
So that is the biggest issue I

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believe in in with today's work.
Gone are the days when you work

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30 years for a company and get a
gold watch.

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You always got to watch your
back.

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And I think that drives that
kind of mentality that I had

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also that I wasn't vulnerable.
I was just making sure that I

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was succeeding and I kept it
very tight and and clean and

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tidy.
But behind the the scene, things

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were falling apart.
And that is what I see with

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many, many leaders.
They look solid, they look

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strong, they look like they have
it all together.

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But when you actually ask them,
but then there's just so much at

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stake.
Maybe they have loans and

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everything else on house, cars
and then they have children in

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schools.
They got to pay for all of this.

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And if they lose the job, not
only do they lose the job, but

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perhaps they have to pull the
children out of the school they

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are in.
Maybe they have to sell the

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house and downgrade to an
apartment.

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And I've seen so many families
then falling apart with divorces

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as well.
And then comes perhaps coping

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mechanisms and addictions into
that.

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And then it's the full circle.
So you have kind of lived life

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from both sides from wearing the
mask.

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Let anyone think you're you're
fine.

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Everything's going great and and
all or should say oh sound like

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many of your interactions at
work.

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We're focused on what you
presented and you've had the

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experience of being open and
vulnerable, and either of those,

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did life become easier?
Yes, certainly.

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I mean, when you're trying to do
it all yourself, when you're

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putting all the bets on
yourself, then it's very, very

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challenging.
You have no rooms for errors.

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Everything has to be perfect.
And that's why perhaps we work

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ourselves, you know, 2 long
hours, weekends, sacrificing

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work over everything.
Maybe also, you know, not

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00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:57,880
becoming too close to any
friends and colleagues.

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That means you isolate yourself
in the workplace and that has a

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lot of downsides there.
Then on the other side of it, my

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life now, having learnt first in
the recovery program to ask for

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help and being vulnerable there,
I have brought that across to

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the other sides of my life.
And one example is in triathlon,

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the sport I did before where you
swim, cycle and run.

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I was mediocre there and I
struggled and sometimes I didn't

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00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,000
even show up to the start of the
race.

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These days though, I I fully
embraced it and I said, well,

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what about if I apply the same
mentality as I did for my other

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00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,080
areas of my life when I
recovered into the sport?

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00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:41,080
Which means signing up for a
club, having a tribe where I

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00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,640
have other people who do the
same sport, getting a coach,

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00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,480
someone who give me a training
plan, someone who can mentor me

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and show me how to do it
properly.

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00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,280
And I've done all of that for
the last few years and I'm

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truly, truly enjoying the sport,
getting better, but most

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00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,480
importantly also feel completely
socially connected rather than

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00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:00,680
isolated.
Nice.

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00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,480
What?
What can the workplace do?

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00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,720
What what can corporate
environments do to combat this

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00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,360
sense of of isolation?
I think the best is to lead by

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00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,840
example.
They just have to be a bit

251
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,320
vulnerable and open themselves.
And that doesn't mean that we

252
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,560
have to come in and share all
our secrets and challenges in

253
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:22,880
the office.
That's not what it's about.

254
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,040
But it's about taking ownership,
perhaps for some of the

255
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,880
insecurities and failures and
being open with the team.

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00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,840
And in my case, then, where I
should have been open was that

257
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,040
I'm not very good at Numbers,
I'm not very good at Microsoft

258
00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,400
Excel.
We were bidding for a lot of

259
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,280
projects.
Things were moving very fast.

260
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,960
I couldn't really keep up.
If I would have been vulnerable

261
00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,680
about that, I don't think anyone
would have judged me.

262
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,760
But it's another thing coming in
and sharing, you know, some

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00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,520
major personal problems we have.
Maybe we can keep that to a

264
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,440
men's group or to a therapist or
coach and working on those

265
00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,360
insecurities or to our friends
outside the workplace.

266
00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:03,600
But there's certainly some
things that you should be

267
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,720
vulnerable with inside the
workplace.

268
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,120
And that is as soon as you feel
that this is overwhelming, I'm

269
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,440
not really sure about this, then
think about who can you ask for

270
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,840
help?
And that's a good distinction to

271
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,120
make because, yeah, we're not
encouraging, We're not

272
00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,720
suggesting, man, you should be
crying in meetings and be all

273
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:23,640
over the place and be an
emotional mess.

274
00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:29,200
But I find that if you don't
share all of you somewhere, then

275
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,080
you're more likely to have that
kind of that public breakdown

276
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,200
and all the emotions that we
compressed will eventually come

277
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,680
out of us.
Yeah, absolutely.

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00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:39,680
And in my case, I wasn't ready
to face it.

279
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,080
So I rather resigned from that
job, which was something I was

280
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,160
thinking about for about one
year.

281
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,720
I drafted my resignation letter
about six months before I handed

282
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,600
it in because I shouldn't
actually have resigned from that

283
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,800
job.
I was doing a good job in 95% of

284
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,480
my role.
I was doing really great, but it

285
00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,280
was those insecurities that
killed me and I just to the

286
00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:03,400
point where I, I couldn't hold
it together.

287
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,080
And that's an expensive learning
that I, I just hope that I never

288
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,840
have in any situation.
It doesn't matter if it's a

289
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,560
relationship or if it's a
workplace or something we do.

290
00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,000
We got to think and ask
yourselves, am I feeling OK

291
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,480
here?
And if not, who can I talk to

292
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,440
about this?
So you have an international

293
00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,400
clientele it sounds like.
Do you see cultural differences

294
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:31,360
around the world in how men both
express loneliness and hide it?

295
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,400
Yeah, I would say in Asia then I
would say that Asians are even

296
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,480
more closed than us Westerners.
We might be a little bit more

297
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,880
outspoken.
I see that in everything from

298
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,000
the 12 step programs and so on.
You know, there's just so much

299
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,920
stigma to show up and to even
admit that you have some issues

300
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,400
or challenges in Asia.
So they are hiding even deeper.

301
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,720
So that's why for myself, them
working in that part of the

302
00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:01,480
world in the region, I got to be
a role model by showing up and

303
00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,240
and sharing what happens when we
do share.

304
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,840
And that's what I did in my book
Executive Loneliness, where I

305
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,320
interviewed executives and
leaders and entrepreneurs mainly

306
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,240
in Southeast Asia about their
isolation and feelings and so

307
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,520
on.
And then what happens on the

308
00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:20,080
other side when we do open up.
So I think there's a long way to

309
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,920
go, definitely a very long way
to go also in Asia.

310
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,280
But otherwise it's the same
feelings of isolation.

311
00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,160
If you're in a workplace where
you don't share and ask for

312
00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,360
help, then it it doesn't matter
where in the world you are,

313
00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,360
you're going to feel lonely.
Right.

314
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,280
No matter where you go, there
you are.

315
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,720
So about the book Executive
loneliness, what?

316
00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,400
What's been the most surprising
or meaningful reaction you've

317
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,560
gotten to the book?
Well, I wrote it, you know, when

318
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:51,160
about one year into my recovery.
So I was already feeling quite

319
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,480
well at that time.
I was one year sober.

320
00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,200
I lost the weight and I had
dealt with my issues.

321
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,600
I worked with a coach, I spoke
to therapist and and all these

322
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:00,960
kind of things have been
happening.

323
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,200
But then something happened that
changed my life and triggered me

324
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,119
to write a book and that was
that.

325
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:11,720
I sadly lost a friend of mine to
suicide, a man from the UK who

326
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,599
worked in Singapore at the time,
someone who I worked with and

327
00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,040
someone who I thought had it all
together.

328
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:24,040
But when he was gone, I was so
sad, heartbroken and also I felt

329
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,319
that if only I knew that
something was going on.

330
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:30,840
And then I start to think about
asking myself the question, you

331
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:35,360
know, how close was I to this?
Because at my lowest point, I

332
00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:37,600
wrote my will, I wrote my
testament.

333
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,480
And I basically start to plan
for my own funeral.

334
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,240
I wasn't suicidal, but I
couldn't see in the future.

335
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:46,960
I didn't have any hope.
I didn't really care if I would

336
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,040
wake up or not.
So that's the sort of Gray zone

337
00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,160
of life I was in.
But then having come out of it

338
00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,920
one year feeling much better
looking back at it, that's when

339
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,920
I realised we, there's a lot of
work to be done here.

340
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,200
And that's when I opened up
fully.

341
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,280
I made a LinkedIn post at the
time that went viral where I

342
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,880
signed up for suicide prevention
agency as a founder and

343
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,760
volunteer to reduce the stigma
of them asking for help and, and

344
00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:19,040
suicide prevention.
And at that stage, then a lot of

345
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,920
media exposure happened.
I was on live TV, radio, there

346
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,920
was newspaper articles from all
around the world coming in.

347
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,480
And with that, then everyone
said the same thing, Nick, you

348
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,400
got to write a book about this.
So that's what I did.

349
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,840
And the biggest surprise was, I
think how well it's received and

350
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,400
how good it's selling still
today, four years after its

351
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,840
release.
You mentioned that line that I,

352
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:44,800
I say in here often of I thought
I had it all together and and I

353
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,600
find that that's that's the
biggest mask that men wear.

354
00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:50,080
I'll get it all figured out.
Everything's fine.

355
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,600
Don't ask me anything.
And it just keeps that, it keeps

356
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,960
that false distance between US
and everybody that that could

357
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,880
make our life but even better.
How do you think we might help

358
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:06,480
more men drop that mask?
I think what you're doing today

359
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,440
here, Andy with me that to be
having this open conversation,

360
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,880
the fact that we talked about
it, where we've been and others

361
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,240
been and how it can go.
Because ultimately, if we don't

362
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,440
have this conversation, then we
might end up like Simon, my

363
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,760
friend who died of suicide.
And sadly, it's all too common.

364
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,680
We all have lost friends when it
comes to this.

365
00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,040
So that is what lies at the end
of it.

366
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,080
If we don't talk about it then
but keep speaking about it, keep

367
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,400
showing up like you and I do
today having these

368
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,920
conversations.
And for anyone who's listening,

369
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,600
you know, think about if you,
who can you talk to?

370
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,280
Is that someone in your life who
you can be honest and vulnerable

371
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,080
with about your challenges?
And if not, think about who can

372
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,560
you talk to?
Because then there are coaches,

373
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:52,560
there are therapists, there are
also all these help lines and

374
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,680
hotlines.
And what I found was that

375
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,640
alcohol was my challenge.
And it was a wonderful world of

376
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:01,680
recovery all around the world
around that.

377
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,480
But what I know now know is that
it's equal as good if someone is

378
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,280
struggling with gambling.
Or drugs, or if there's any

379
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,360
social media addictions, food
addictions, sugar addiction, all

380
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:17,520
of these issues, Someone else
has been there before and have

381
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,680
these issues.
And I even found out now that

382
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,080
they even have these 12 step
programs for people who are

383
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,040
facing bankruptcy or someone who
might be having a company that

384
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,400
is going bankrupt.
Because then the stigma of

385
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,000
discussing for that and sharing
that is something that's

386
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,880
difficult.
You even have these programs and

387
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:37,240
they don't charge.
These are volunteer programs,

388
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,840
help where people are giving
back and helping, so there's

389
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,040
some support for everyone there
to speak up.

390
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,960
Yeah, and you know, long time
listeners, people who know me

391
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,400
know this, but I'm a survivor of
multiple suicide attempts in in

392
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,360
my teens and 20s.
And you know, it's a lesson I

393
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:55,840
needed.
But that's why, that's why I, I

394
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,920
came out of the emotional closet
then and trying to combat the

395
00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,560
stigma on this, because men
shouldn't have to face the end

396
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,400
of their life to decide that,
OK, I'm supposed to be here,

397
00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:10,480
right?
I find that, you know, our life

398
00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,760
is meant to be joyous.
It's meant to be exciting.

399
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:15,360
It's meant to be seen in his
adventure.

400
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:20,040
So now when I, when I think that
guy's get it all together, I

401
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,320
remind myself, Oh, a lot of
people say that about me.

402
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,120
So anytime I think that I'm
like, it's probably not true

403
00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:27,160
somewhere in his life.
And that's OK.

404
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,360
In fact, that's a good thing.
We all have areas that we can

405
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,480
grow.
And if, if, if we didn't, I

406
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,560
don't think we'd still be here.
Yeah, absolutely.

407
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,680
And I, I, I, I so resonate with
what you're saying because many

408
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,080
of the coaching clients I have
now or I would say the majority

409
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,200
of them are very well off.
Perhaps they are CE OS of big

410
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,520
companies.
So they've done really well

411
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,160
financially for themselves.
On the outside, everything looks

412
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,880
absolutely perfect.
But as soon as you start

413
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,120
speaking, you know, as soon as
you build up a little bit of

414
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:01,920
trust and understand what's
going on behind the scene, it's

415
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,480
it's really, really, really the
opposite.

416
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,520
So it's almost like the better
it looks on the outside, the the

417
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,920
the more dirty there it is on
the inside.

418
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,040
Yeah, yeah, that that's a great
look at there.

419
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,680
There's AI think it's a quote
from Theodore Roosevelt.

420
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,160
Comparison is the thief of joy.
So when you find yourself

421
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,360
comparison when you know,
because I that was the issue.

422
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,120
I had anyone that I learned from
any mentor coach I had put them

423
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,640
on a pedestal, couldn't imagine
anything them doing anything

424
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,440
ever wrong.
And so I had plenty of people

425
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,240
that I followed fall off that
pedestal.

426
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,600
But if I, if I realized they
probably don't belong in a

427
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,720
pedestal to begin with, that
would have probably helped both

428
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,040
sides of that relationship a
lot.

429
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,240
Yeah.
If there's a man listening now

430
00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,800
who feels isolated but is still
in that place of of fearful of

431
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,480
reaching out, fearful of saying
anything, what would you suggest

432
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,000
as as the as the best, easiest
possible first step?

433
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,560
Yeah, I would say the first
think about if there's anyone at

434
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,000
all, if is there a friend who
you can start to be a little bit

435
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,600
vulnerable with and perhaps you
don't have to go to full length

436
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,800
and sharing all your secrets
right away.

437
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,520
The best would be to start and I
talk about the vulnerability

438
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,960
muscles, start practising it.
So from your conversations

439
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,760
moving forward, just start
opening up step by step.

440
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,120
When I went through my difficult
times, my my divorce and the

441
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,920
resignation of the work and when
I fell down, I had fantastic

442
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,680
friends around me, but I was not
open and vulnerable with them.

443
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,160
I played golf with them, I went
to the bar with them, drank beer

444
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,960
with them, watched sport at the
pub with them and I saw it as a

445
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,960
place to, you know, relax and
have a good time.

446
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,680
But I didn't speak about any of
the challenges.

447
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,240
These days though, my
conversations with my male

448
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,240
friends is different.
They are all so deep,

449
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,280
vulnerable.
Yes, we still have a good time.

450
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,600
I had a went to a cinema with
one of my good friends last

451
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,440
night.
But after that, actually we

452
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,640
walked outside and we sat for a
while and we had a big deep

453
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,600
honest conversation about life
and asking him how is he doing,

454
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,360
any challenges in his life now,
what about his family and so on.

455
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,360
And we just ask a couple of
questions.

456
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:12,240
Then we're strengthening the
relationship.

457
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,080
So I would say that's one
advice.

458
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:18,000
If there's no emergency, if
there's a real emergency and we

459
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,600
have to speak about something,
then I I recommend what I said

460
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,720
before then professional
services, helpline, hotlines

461
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,680
where there's volunteers or
therapists or coaches.

462
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,760
And most of these, including how
I work these days as a coach is

463
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,880
online.
So a lot of work can be

464
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,960
anonymous.
It can be during a lunch break

465
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,760
or during the weekend.
So no one has to be seen to

466
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,160
seeking these kind of services
these days.

467
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,880
Yeah, and I'll, I'll share like
I have called suicide hotlines

468
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,040
and gotten a benefit from it.
I have had to put myself into an

469
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,280
ER to make sure I'd stay alive,
and that's OK too.

470
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,000
You know, the the biggest
mistake I find is somehow

471
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:02,240
believing you don't belong here.
So, Nick, I wonder what's one

472
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,280
thing that you wish more men
knew?

473
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,240
And I would like to tie that
back to what you said, because

474
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,520
it's about belonging.
And I mean the opposite to

475
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,320
loneliness is connection and
that comes from belonging.

476
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:18,360
So I believe that we need to be
proactive as men to find places

477
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:22,200
to belong.
We need to belong in in places

478
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,800
where we feel that this is a
space for me, like in my case,

479
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,720
it's triathlon, the swim, biking
and cycling.

480
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,840
So I'm, I'm doubling down on
this sport of triathlon because

481
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,360
that's my tribe.
I show up to swim academies, I

482
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:38,480
run with them, I cycle with
them, I do trips with them and

483
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,600
so on.
But for someone else, it might

484
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,120
be that they love fishing, then
double down on that.

485
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:45,920
Perhaps there was someone who's
listening who enjoyed fishing

486
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,400
when they were younger than the
last 1020 years.

487
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,520
They stopped it.
And I would then encourage

488
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:52,520
everyone to bring out those
hobbies again.

489
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,920
Sign up for a community or a
club or an association who The

490
00:25:57,360 --> 00:26:01,960
Who provides, you know, perhaps
trips some some gatherings

491
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,480
together where you can then be
with like minded do what you

492
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,560
love.
So you should have that place to

493
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,280
belong.
So you have that tribe.

494
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,920
And I think that is something
that we need really to be taking

495
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,520
responsibility for ourselves
because no one else will do that

496
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,400
to you.
When we were children, our

497
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,440
parents drove us around
typically to test different kind

498
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,240
of sports and activities and so
on.

499
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,840
But then we become very busy
with our adult life and work and

500
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,320
then we stop those services.
But my call to action is to

501
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,760
everyone to look out for those
places where they belong.

502
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,600
And it can be sport, but it can
also be a men's group.

503
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,240
Indeed, if someone is listening
and don't belong to a men's

504
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,720
group, perhaps look for one in
your area.

505
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:44,680
Yeah, I I agree with everything
you've said for this entire

506
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,400
interview, Nick.
So I feel like a good soul.

507
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,320
So.
So Nick, what's the best way for

508
00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:51,200
people to connect with you and
learn more?

509
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,040
Well, I'm quite active on
LinkedIn.

510
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,440
They can look me up there and
it's Nick Johnson.

511
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,280
NICK.
And Johnson is spelled Jonsson.

512
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,600
Otherwise, my book Executive
Loneliness is on Amazon.

513
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,640
It's also on Audible as an audio
book.

514
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,440
Well, thanks so much for being
here today, Nick.

515
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,880
Thanks for thanks for your
journey.

516
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,760
Thanks for still being here and
thanks for all the work you're

517
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,920
doing to help more men stay
here, be themselves and and

518
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,160
enjoy be themselves.
Thank you so much for having me

519
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,040
on the show, Andy, and thanks
for the great work you do and

520
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,520
thanks to all the listeners.
Thanks for listening to Real Men

521
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,600
Feel and this powerful talk with
Nick Johnson.

522
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,680
If his story resonated with you,
know that you are not alone and

523
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,560
you don't need to suffer in
science.

524
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:42,640
Take a moment today to reach
out, check in, open up to a

525
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,600
friend, and if you're looking
for a safe, supportive space to

526
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:50,160
do that with other men, join
Authentic AF, our free community

527
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,520
at realmenfeel.org/group.
Stay real, stay connected, and

528
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,040
until next time, be good to
yourself.