Understanding Narcissism: Beyond the Buzzwords

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You're going to want to look
for, for however long you've

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known the person, a persistent
inability to empathize with

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other people in instances where
they should now they can.

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What's confusing is that
narcissist can sometimes perform

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empathy, or they seem like
they're being empathetic, but

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when the behavior doesn't match
the words and you can usually

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feel the incongruence between
what they're saying and what

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they actually feel.
Hello and welcome to Real Men

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Feel.
I'm your host, author, coach,

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and healer, Andy Grant.
You can learn more about me at

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the andygrant.com.
Here in Real Men Feel, we have

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conversations that most men are
not having, but that all men and

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the women who love them can
benefit from.

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Today, we're diving into a topic
that gets thrown around a lot

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but is often misunderstood
narcissism.

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My guest is Sterling Mosley, a
therapist, professor, and author

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specializing in relationships,
attachment, and personality

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dynamics.
We'll explore what narcissism

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really means, how it shows up in
men and women, its impact on

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relationships, and most
importantly, what we can do

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about it.
If you want to continue

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conversations like this, join
our private community, Authentic

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AF by visiting
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Let's do it.
Hello Sterling, and welcome to

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Real Men Feel.
Hi, thank you for having me.

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So I always like to start at the
basics and allow everybody get

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on the same page.
So could you tell us what

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narcissism really is?
Oh, big question right in front.

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So, well, I think narcissism, I
think there's the, the simplest

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way to think about narcissism is
that it's the pervasive, long

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standing meaning throughout most
of the lifespan.

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A lot of it is empathy deficits.
So most narcissistic people have

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deficits in their ability to
utilize empathy towards others.

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Now they, it doesn't mean that
they don't experience other

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emotions, but empathy seems to
be blunted and then just sort of

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a kind of over focus on one's
own needs, emotions, goals,

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priorities over others, even
when it would be beneficial to

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them to focus on other people.
So and I, you know, I often say

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narcissism, of course there's
clinical narcissism, which is,

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you know what, most people feel
uncomfortable calling people a

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narcissist like, well, I'm not
qualified to diagnose

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narcissism.
And I, you know, I always tell

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people most narcissists don't
end up in therapy anyway, which

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is why the diagnosis rate is so
low, because if you think you're

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pretty great, you're probably
not going to go and have someone

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tell you you're not.
So, so there's clinical

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narcissism, which is technically
very rare because of the low

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diagnosis.
And then there's just everyday

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kind of narcissism, which is
what most people are going to

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encounter.
So, but at its root, those are

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the kind of two things I always
point people to and over focus

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on oneself and an inability to
feel vulnerability or allow

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vulnerability.
And then the the lack of

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empathy.
So is it that over focus on

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oneself?
That is kind of the difference

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between a healthy
self-confidence and narcissism.

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Yes, exactly.
Yeah.

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I mean, any one of us can feel
proud of ourselves or even have

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days where we're, you know,
maybe a little boastful or

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arrogant or selfish, right.
And that doesn't make you a

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narcissist.
But.

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But narcissistic people have a
sort of chronic or pervasive

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need to protect what actually is
a very fragile ego structure

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underneath the bravado and
bluster and arrogance.

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And so because of that, they,
they really, the, the, it's like

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they're putting on like a suit
of armor and they just keep

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putting on different pieces of
armor, right?

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And, and so then eventually they
become impenetrable to not only

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their own vulnerability touching
other people, but other people's

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touching them.
And so, So what happens is that

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the, they become sort of a
fortress of their own making,

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right?
Because they're trying to

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protect this very kind of raw,
vulnerable parts of themselves

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that we all have.
But for them, it's unacceptable

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to allow that part to be seen to
the world, unless their

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narcissism is about how
vulnerable and, and you know,

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weak and all that they are.
That is a form of narcissism,

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but for the most part, most of
them, that's what allows them or

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does not allow them to connect
with other people.

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Because really narcissism is
kind of a a relational disorder,

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I guess we could say over and
it's personality one, but it

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also effects other people, so.
So typically a narcissist would

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not see any of this as a
problem.

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Yeah, not really.
Usually narcissistic people

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don't think of themselves being
the problem, right?

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By the nature of the way that
their ego functions, it has to

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be someone else, right?
It has to be someone else's

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faults.
It has to be someone else's

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problem.
Because to admit that it's their

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problem means there's something
wrong with them and there can't

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be anything wrong so.
I'm sure you are aware there's a

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lot of buzz and narcissism
really is such a thrown about

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term online.
How is it being overused or

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misused in your opinion?
It's getting thrown around a

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lot, which I guess was good for
me 'cause I was able to get my

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books published.
But then at the same time it's

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frustrating because it's being
used in situations where it

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shouldn't be.
I think a lot of people think,

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oh, someone's just confident or
has charisma.

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I saw a reel on Instagram or
something that you know someone

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was talking about.
If someone has charisma, then

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they definitely are narcissist.
And I was like God.

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So it's definitely not that I
think, I think the confusion is

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ironically that because of the
age of social media and instant

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information and instant experts,
that's created a kind of in a

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weird way, narcissistic society
where everybody thinks they're

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experts.
And so they, without really

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consuming or learning or going
in depth about what narcissism

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is, they sort of cherry pick
traits, throw them in a basket

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and say, well, this is
narcissism, right?

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So it, it is overused.
And, and then on the other hand,

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I'm glad that there's awareness
about narcissism growing.

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I just wish that there was more
accuracy in the dissemination of

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it.
And what first drew you into

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wanting to be an an expert or at
least study narcissism?

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Well, I have some personal
experience with narcissists in

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my life and my family and in
professional situations I've

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encountered some narcissism.
And so I have first hand

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experience with the effects of
narcissism, especially in the

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familial context where it's sort
of pervasive and long standing

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throughout your life.
And then actually I didn't

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really get interested in
narcissism specifically until

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maybe about four or five years
ago.

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I mean, it's, I've sort of
touched on and off.

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I studied my master's program, I
studied counseling, and so I was

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very into personality
typologies.

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And one of my other passions is
the Enneagram, which is, you

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know, the 9 personality types.
But when I was studying that, I

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sort of knew that, well, you
know, if you have these nine

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different kind of ego fixations,
overarching ego fixations, you

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know, there has to be a form of
narcissism that shows up in each

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one of those.
And actually there's 27

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variations of the nine types.
So then my first book was the 27

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Types of Narcissism.
So I actually mapped out of

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these 27 different subtypes,
which map to the Enneagram.

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But at its very basic level, one
of the things that I encountered

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when I was starting to get
really interested in personality

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disorders was that a lot of
narcissistic research kind of

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had one personality type of
narcissism, right?

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The grandiose, boastful
narcissist.

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And that's just one flavour of
narcissism.

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And I said, you know, there's
lots of different ways

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narcissism can show up.
Narcissism itself isn't a

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personality type, right?
It isn't a personality style,

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but it is like an overlay that
you can put on anyone's

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personality depending on who
they are.

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So that that kind of sparked my
interest in wanting to learn

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about narcissism more deeply and
getting really involved with it.

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Also, with 27 different types of
narcissism, are there particular

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types that are more common?
No, so there's the the without

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getting too in the weed 27,
there's there's the over what I

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call sub variants of narcissism,
which are sort of a prelude to

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the 27.
So the sub variants of

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narcissism are the ones that
people usually know.

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That's like the grandiose
narcissist, the vulnerable

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narcissist.
There's there's nine of those

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that I outlined.
So there's grandiose, there's

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vulnerable, there's the
intellectual narcissist, right?

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That some people don't think
about.

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This is the person that thinks
they're the greatest mind in the

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world, right?
And that everyone is, they may

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overestimate their intelligence
or their IQ or they think all of

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their contributions,
intellectual contributions are,

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you know, the greatest, but they
may not look like what

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narcissist, what people think a
narcissist should look, should

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look like.
They don't focus as much on

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their appearance.
They may be less physically

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vain.
They may not care about

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popularity in the same way.
So and then there's like the

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benign narcissist, right?
That is actually the most common

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that most people will encounter.
And that's the one that flies

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under the radar.
So sometimes we call that the

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nice narcissist.
And it's somebody who thinks

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that they're, you know,
generally they're easier to be

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around.
They can be a lot of fun.

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There's a lot of histrionic
features that go into that where

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they, there's, but they're
superficial, right?

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They, they just skin the surface
of things.

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If something's wrong or
someone's upset, they can't

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really relate or they don't want
to or they will.

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I've known a nice narcissist
that pull back from people

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during like grief or depression
or illness, right?

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Where they're like, I don't want
to deal with that.

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It's negative, right?
Well, somebody that has that

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toxic positivity that can
sometimes be the nice

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narcissist.
So that's actually a more common

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one that people think.
So, So there's these sort of

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overarching subvariants.
I'd say the most common one, the

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nice narcissist or benign
narcissist, slides under the

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radar a lot.
The grandiose is the one that

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people will recognize the most.
The malignant is the one that

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people are scared of, right?
Because there's sort of

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psychopathic features involved
with that.

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They can be violent or
aggressive.

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So I wouldn't necessarily say 1
is more common as much as I

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would say 1 is.
Some of them are more

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recognizable to other people
than the other the other ones.

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Do you see narcissism showing up
in different ways for men versus

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women?
Good question.

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Yes, yes, I think that in
certainly in our society, in

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American or and Western culture
and throughout Europe, you know

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the sort of masculine, the the
favouring of, you know,

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masculinity and maleness and
those cultures, many cultures

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throughout the world.
I think it allows for male

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narcissists to, they tend to be
more overt with their

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narcissistic characteristics.
Sometimes those traits sort of

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coalesce with stereotypical
ideas of masculinity, right?

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Being authoritative and strong
and saying what you want and all

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of that.
And so sometimes that cultural

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overlay can mask narcissism or
vice versa.

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So whereas women, you know, I
see a lot of defaulting to the

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benign nice narcissism or the
communal narcissist, which is

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the, the kind that wants to be
benevolent and seen as helpful.

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And you see a lot of that
philanthropy work in the

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malignant narcissist definitely
shows up more with men in my in

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my work, in my case studies.
So yeah, I think that the

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expectation of what masculinity
and femininity is absolutely

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shapes the way that somebody the
the way that they feel

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comfortable performing their
narcissism out out in the world.

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Whereas women may suppress or
hide some of the narcissistic

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traits more because of the
culture, right.

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And and what's expected of women
and what's expected of men.

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That's a really good question.
Yeah, right.

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So since what is often expected
of men or the the stereotypical

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view of masculinity being strong
and dominant and kind of denying

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00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:37,320
your emotions, does that push
men into becoming narcissists or

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or do they have narcissism
almost as another mask that they

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wear?
So I talked about this in my

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second book a little bit, the
gender kind of question, and I

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think it's very nuanced, right?
I think that masculinity

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00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:57,800
stereotypical or definitely
toxic masculinity, I think the

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00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:03,000
kind of person especially that's
attracted to the more toxic

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presentation of masculinity, the
you know, the I've got to be

234
00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,760
overtly aggressive and take what
I want and don't show

235
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:12,760
vulnerability.
I think the person that's

236
00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,160
attracted to that kind of
masculine display probably has

237
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:20,000
higher cystic traits.
It's mirroring how they feel

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00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,560
internally.
Whereas I've known of men who

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00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,560
have tried to adopt that way of
being and it it kind of works,

240
00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:29,840
but it also feels incongruent.
And so you can always kind of

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00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,200
tell that like this person
doesn't really, that's not their

242
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,800
natural mode of being right now.
If you, you know, adopt A

243
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,520
masculinity script, either from
maybe you're, you got a parent

244
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,880
or caregiver who pushed that on
you or peers, you know, over

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00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,080
time, there's something what we
call acquired narcissism.

246
00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,000
And you can kind of acquire,
even if they weren't innate, you

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00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,200
can kind of acquire narcissistic
traits by being around certain

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00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:02,000
groups of people that have, you
know, narcissistic values or

249
00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,000
things like that.
So I think that I think that

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00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,840
masculinity does real
masculinity, which I'm sure

251
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,760
you've talked a lot of stuff on
your show, it doesn't have

252
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,240
anything to do with, you know,
dominating everybody and all of

253
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,360
that, right?
Allows full, full vulnerability

254
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,720
and feeling, right?
And whereas the sort of

255
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,360
performative kinds of
masculinity that are, in my

256
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,640
opinion, outdated, I think it
does have a lot of narcissistic

257
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,280
traits.
So it there's kind of a chicken

258
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,720
or egg thing happening there.
But I do think if you have

259
00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:39,040
higher narcissistic traits,
you're going to be attracted to,

260
00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,960
and there's lots of research on
this, right?

261
00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:44,080
Certain ideologies over others,
right?

262
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,200
Ones that don't, where you don't
show empathy to others, where

263
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,800
showing that kind of care is
weakness, You know, being

264
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,240
vulnerable is weak, dominating
people.

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00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,000
If you're attracted to those
values, you probably already

266
00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:03,000
have higher narcissism innate.
But it just sound like at least

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00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,640
some people can develop more
narcissistic traits as they grow

268
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,520
up and are influenced by by
society or wanting to fit in and

269
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,040
whatever group they're they're
running with, right?

270
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,200
Does that mean that someone
that's narcissistic can change

271
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:18,480
for the better?
Like, you know, is it treatable?

272
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,360
That, yeah, there, there's kind
of mixed research about that

273
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,840
there there's some emerging
therapeutic techniques and that

274
00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,600
just take a long time.
And I've worked with

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00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,600
narcissistic people and and
coaching.

276
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,080
And what I will say is that what
almost all, not all, but many

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00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,040
narcissists can learn how
different strategies for dealing

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00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,240
with people.
Because what often happens with

279
00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:46,080
narcissists is they, especially
if it's, you know, significant

280
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,520
enough because you know, there's
spectrum is that there, there

281
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,000
comes a point in their lives
where they're encountering a lot

282
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,160
of resistance to their lives, to
whatever they want to do because

283
00:15:55,160 --> 00:16:00,080
people are in conflict with them
or they're getting relationships

284
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:01,880
are ending.
Children are not talking to

285
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,240
them.
You know, they're losing jobs.

286
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,200
And so sometimes those things
will push someone who's

287
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,200
narcissistic into a therapeutic
situation, right?

288
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,480
Either coaching or therapy.
Now they don't come saying I'm

289
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:20,240
narcissistic and help if they
usually come because other

290
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:24,840
people are telling them like, I
can't live or work with you

291
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,320
anymore.
And so therefore they're not

292
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,120
getting their needs met or
they're not.

293
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,040
They're losing relationships and
they're experiencing anxiety,

294
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:34,440
depression.
You know, they still have those

295
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:35,840
human things that happened to
them.

296
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:42,200
So often times what they can
learn are strategies for how to

297
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,320
actually talk to people, how to
even if they're not feeling

298
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,800
empathy for someone else, how to
stop and ask, you know, like,

299
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,800
what are you feeling?
How do you feel or saying, I'm

300
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,840
sorry that happened?
And that can be really hard.

301
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,080
And it takes a long time for
them to be able to do those

302
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,240
things because a lot of those
things, too many narcissists

303
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,079
signal weakness.
Now, some narcissists are really

304
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,319
good at saying I'm sorry and not
meaning it right and then just

305
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:09,960
repeating the behaviour.
But some of them aren't.

306
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,160
And so they can learn strategies
for interpersonal growth or to

307
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,440
help their relationships, but it
doesn't always mean that they're

308
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,520
changing their internal
experience.

309
00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:24,119
There's certain life events, I
think with people.

310
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,560
I have a family member who spent
most of their life being very

311
00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:31,200
narcissistic and they're, you
know, in their 90s now and

312
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,400
they've softened a lot.
Now there's some, you know,

313
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,320
memory loss and, and dementia
there.

314
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:39,400
So I'm like, well, maybe they
just forgot their defense

315
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,840
strategies.
But whatever the case, that's

316
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,600
it's shifted them a lot.
And so sometimes life and things

317
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,480
that happen to people can't chip
away at that armour I was

318
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,880
talking about so.
So it it sounds like it's again,

319
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,400
he said.
No one's ever like I'm feeling.

320
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,520
I'm struggling with my
narcissism.

321
00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,880
I'm able to get help.
It's more I need help dealing

322
00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,440
with all these weird people
getting in my way in the life I

323
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,120
want to live.
Exactly, exactly right, Yeah,

324
00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,720
there are some narcissists that
that are self aware that you can

325
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,520
there's like youtubes of
narcissism.

326
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,480
I've, I've met and worked with a
couple and that's different

327
00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,680
because they're like, yeah, I
know, I know, I you know, and

328
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,240
there it is a little bit better
in a weird way because there's

329
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,760
something about the
self-awareness that helps them

330
00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:25,800
to mitigate the behavior, but
it's still there.

331
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,400
So yeah.
Still, and what is some red

332
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,560
flags for people to be on the
lookout for, perhaps in

333
00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,240
hindsight or or present day,
that their romantic,

334
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,160
professional or family based
relationship might be with a

335
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,040
narcissist?
Good question.

336
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:49,040
So I think again, you're going
to want to look for for however

337
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,040
long you've known the person, a
persistent inability to

338
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:59,680
empathize with other people in
instances where they should now

339
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:01,800
they can.
What's confusing is that

340
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,160
narcissist can sometimes perform
empathy or they seem like

341
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,080
they're being empathetic, but
when the behavior doesn't match

342
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,360
the words and you can usually
feel the incongruence between

343
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:14,160
what they're saying and what
they actually feel.

344
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,160
So that's that's one of the
first things and then

345
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,880
manipulation.
So if you find yourself in a

346
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,880
relationship with someone who
either when you leave their

347
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,960
presence, you're doubting
yourself, right?

348
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,160
Because they probably gaslighted
you about your reality or you

349
00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,000
know, what you feel or what you
think.

350
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,280
That's often a good indication
is if you walk away thinking,

351
00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,640
well, I went in there to talk
about this and then I left

352
00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:45,720
feeling like guilty for having
this issue or, you know, somehow

353
00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,720
it got turned around on me.
If that happens a lot, that's a

354
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,480
red flag.
That's something to look at.

355
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,480
I would also say somebody who,
especially in a romantic

356
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,400
relationship, narcissistic
people tend to default to

357
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,080
controlling and even well in all
relationships but.

358
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,040
You notice it a lot in romantic
relationships, but in families

359
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:10,080
also where they want to control
what you, you know, do or say or

360
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,400
how you present to the world
because you are an extension of

361
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,400
them.
So you don't get to be your own

362
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,400
person.
You have to reflect whatever

363
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,680
image that they want to reflect
in the world.

364
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,600
And I, I've heard this a lot
from people that have

365
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,040
narcissistic parents and I've,
I've seen that in, in my own

366
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,960
family system.
And so that that's a big red

367
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:31,480
flag.
And then in relationships, it

368
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,120
can be more overt to the point
where this person wants to tell

369
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:38,040
you what to wear and you know,
what to eat and all of that.

370
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:43,800
So, so there's a selfishness of
self absorption that doesn't go

371
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,280
away, right?
It's, it's almost there all the

372
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,600
time.
But what people do is they hang

373
00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,680
on to the moments when it's not
there, right?

374
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,560
And they're like, well, but when
they're not doing that, they're

375
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,320
really sweet or whatever, which
is fine.

376
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,440
And that sometimes can keep
people in a relationship with

377
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,000
someone they care about.
But it's important to note that

378
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,680
if it's there more often than
not, then you know that that's a

379
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:06,520
big red flag.
But yeah, things like

380
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,480
gaslighting frequently, which
people?

381
00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,080
That's another word that's
thrown around all the time,

382
00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,280
right?
And what gaslighting is, is

383
00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,080
trying to convince you out of
your reality, your feelings or

384
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,600
your thoughts.
It's not when two people

385
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,280
misremember or remember a
situation differently, right?

386
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,600
Because I hear I, my students do
that where they're like, well,

387
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,600
he was gaslighting me.
I'm like, say more, what do you

388
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,760
mean?
And usually it's like, well, we

389
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,200
disagreed about what happened.
And I'm like, no, that's just a

390
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,280
disagreement.
That's not gaslighting.

391
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,000
Maybe that person remembers it
differently.

392
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:44,560
But if the person is trying to
convince you that the way that

393
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,120
they remembered thing or the
what you're feeling isn't what

394
00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,560
you're feeling, yes, then we can
talk about the term gaslighting.

395
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,200
But I like to always clear that
one up because people throw it

396
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,360
around a lot and it it it loses
its meaning and impact.

397
00:21:56,360 --> 00:21:59,320
So yeah.
Yeah, no, I, I appreciate that.

398
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,560
So, so thanks.
So I'll, I hear from a lot of

399
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:07,320
men that will be in a
relationship and recognize the

400
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,440
gaslighting happening to them
and the control and the

401
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,240
narcissistic tendencies and
their partner, but they've never

402
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,720
heard of this happening to men.
So that makes them shut down and

403
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,840
not seek help too.
So if if a man is hearing this

404
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,680
conversation or reading your
book and realizing, wow, I might

405
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,760
be in a relationship with a
narcissist, what's some advice

406
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,880
for them?
Yeah, it can be a challenge, I

407
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:35,400
think for men sometimes to
recognize narcissistic abuse in

408
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,360
a relationship because to
recognize abuse I think at all

409
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:41,440
for many men in relationships
can bring up that, well.

410
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,360
I'm a man and why would I get
abused, right?

411
00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:48,680
And if there's that shame
around, you know, either being

412
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,840
vulnerable or some people make
it, you know, I was naive.

413
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,360
I should have known better.
And that that's none of that is

414
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:57,320
true, right?
Because anybody can get in a

415
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,760
relationship or dynamic with
someone narcissistic.

416
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,080
And before you know it, you're
in it.

417
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,880
And so I think first it's being
able to recognize that it

418
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:08,480
doesn't mean that there's
anything wrong with you or

419
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,840
you're, you know, less of a man
or less masculine just because

420
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,840
you are in a narcissistic
dynamic.

421
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,640
So, so removing the shame piece
is first and foremost because I

422
00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,800
have seen that come up a lot
with men that I've known and men

423
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:30,000
that I've worked with where
admitting that there's even a, a

424
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:33,040
possibility that they could get
in that dynamic and not

425
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,560
recognize it or notice it
sometimes that's the first

426
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,360
barrier.
So it's going to be, it's

427
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:41,120
challenging for anybody to
recognize that they maybe are in

428
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,040
a relationship with a
narcissistic person, especially

429
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,200
if you love the person or you're
married to them or you have

430
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:51,120
children with them, right?
And because what is a normal

431
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:53,680
part of recognizing narcissism
in a relationship is there's

432
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,240
that feeling of like, OK, well
then who have I been in a

433
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,280
relationship with?
Like who is this person really?

434
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,040
And usually those thoughts have
come up before and the person

435
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:07,480
has pushed it down, right.
I, I knew someone who was, has

436
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:11,880
been married narcissist for most
of their lives and they're in

437
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:17,040
their 60s, seventies.
And, you know, he said one day I

438
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:20,960
just, you know, my wife acts
completely differently in public

439
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,400
than she does at home.
And, you know, everybody thinks

440
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,040
she, she's so nice and great and
wonderful.

441
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,880
And then she comes home and
she's cold and everything's

442
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,080
wrong and she's always
criticizing me.

443
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,600
One day he just said, like, who,
who, which one am I married to?

444
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,320
Like which one is the actual
person He was like we'd see

445
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,080
glimpse of that at home.
And and there's like sometimes

446
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,400
there's like a creepy feeling
for people because it's like, I

447
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,360
don't even know, you know, who
this person is or who they

448
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:49,640
really are.
And it's because they don't know

449
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,960
who they are.
And so I always tell them like,

450
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,000
it's what you're experiencing or
what people are interacting with

451
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,800
with the narcissist, except in
some very, you know, key

452
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,480
vulnerable moments in their
life.

453
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:07,120
What you're interacting with is
the armor is the like a shell or

454
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:10,560
an image of a person that
they've just inhabited and

455
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,280
they've abandoned their own
depth.

456
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:16,880
So, so you, you aren't really
interacting with the person,

457
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,640
right?
You're interacting with the, the

458
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,160
sort of image of the person
which changes and shifts.

459
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,080
But I usually say what, you
know, when everything's wrong

460
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,760
and you know, you can't do
anything right.

461
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,400
And they don't like anything
that's closer to the real person

462
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,480
because the mask has dropped,
which they tend to do with

463
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,920
family members.
So I, I think that it's

464
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,160
recognizing it is the first
step, which is why I write a lot

465
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:45,040
about how to recognize the, the
narcissism and different

466
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,080
personality styles.
And it's not just that

467
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,360
monolithic, like, oh, they think
they're pretty great and they

468
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:51,960
brag a lot because it the
variations, the subtle

469
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:55,520
variations are important because
if you don't know how to

470
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,920
recognize it in different
personality styles, you'll miss

471
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,120
it, right?
And or dismiss it.

472
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,840
And I think, you know,
especially if we're talking

473
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,480
about traditional kind of
masculine, feminine roles and

474
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,120
relationships, you know, some
characteristics that are

475
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:16,200
traditionally feminine can be
sort of missed in terms of, you

476
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,600
know, if someone, you know,
there's a personality style that

477
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,200
is super caregiving and
nurturing and, you know, the

478
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:25,040
sort of motherly archetype,
right?

479
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,520
But you know, the narcissistic
kind of version of that is the

480
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:34,920
person can be very manipulative
and smothering or sort of overly

481
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,280
prideful to the point of not
being able to accept mistakes.

482
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,560
And so, so I just think
understanding the nuance,

483
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,320
removing the shame of being in a
narcissistic relationship

484
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,400
because it's not something you
did to yourself, right, is, is

485
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,160
the first step.
Sorry, that was a really long

486
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,840
way of getting to that.
Yeah, that's I'm, I've seen that

487
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:53,920
a lot.
And I'm glad you asked that

488
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:59,080
question.
If someone is questioning

489
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,640
narcissistic trades in
themselves, is that actually a

490
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,160
good sign that you if if you're
concerned about being a

491
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,400
narcissist, you probably aren't?
Right, yes, exactly.

492
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,280
That's what I've always told
people.

493
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:14,800
If you can see the traits and
and call it out in yourself,

494
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,800
that's that's usually a good
sign because it means that it's

495
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,240
not what we call encapsulated
narcissism, right.

496
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,280
It's not so much a part of your
internal world that you can't

497
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,280
see it, right?
Because if something is so much

498
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,000
a part of us, sometimes we can't
see it and we need somebody else

499
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,560
to mirror back.
If you can reflect and say, you

500
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,680
know, and that's why the first
book I called the narcissist in

501
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,960
you and everyone else, because
everyone is a little

502
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,800
narcissistic in there, right?
We all have a little narcissist

503
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,360
in inside of us.
You know, some people don't

504
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,000
know, some clinicians hate that
I say that, but but it's true.

505
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,200
If you have an ego, which most
humans do, if you have an ego,

506
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,400
then then you have the capacity
to be narcissistic, right, or,

507
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,840
or selfish.
It doesn't mean that it's all

508
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,000
the time.
It doesn't mean that that's, you

509
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,880
know who you are every day of
your life, but it does mean the

510
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,120
capacity is there.
So if you can recognize it,

511
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,840
that's a good sign because it
means that you're able to catch

512
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,600
yourself when you slip into, oh,
I'm, I'm losing my empathy.

513
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,800
And sometimes there are, there
are times in life when we need

514
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,000
to be about ourselves, right?
We need to be our own champions

515
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,080
and we need to be the little
selfish.

516
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,560
And that's that's OK.
It's when we're doing that all

517
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,040
the time, or when we lose that
empathy all the time, that it

518
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,880
becomes a problem.
Has there been any research into

519
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,520
what sort of upbringing of
environment is most likely to

520
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,960
create a full blown narcissist?
Yeah, there there's a, there's

521
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,440
some interesting research, so I
talk about in both books

522
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,480
actually, that it's more of a
holistic thing that creates A

523
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:50,920
narcissistic style.
So there's a biological

524
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,120
component.
There's some research to suggest

525
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,080
that if you have a narcissistic
parent, it could go either way.

526
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,680
You could either adapt those
nurse or adopt those

527
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:03,080
narcissistic trades or you if
there's a higher likelihood you

528
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,400
might have inherited some
narcissistic trades or you'll

529
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,120
you know, you'll be super
empathetic and you know,

530
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,840
probably more on the impact side
of things.

531
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,840
But so there's a biological
component.

532
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,920
There's definitely a
developmental thing that can

533
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,200
happen where depending on your
upbringing, especially the way

534
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,320
there's some interesting
research on parenting styles

535
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,800
and, and the parenting styles
that can sort of produce more

536
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,720
narcissism, more permissive.
I just sort of let my child do

537
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,080
whatever and I don't correct
them and I tell them everything

538
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,680
they do is great.
Generally isn't is a is a

539
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,520
disaster in terms of developing,
not being able to have

540
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,920
appropriate self criticism or
take other people's needs into

541
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,440
account.
So, you know, that doesn't mean

542
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,600
that all those kids that are
raised with that parenting style

543
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,400
are going to be narcissistic,
but it does kind of ratchet up

544
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,400
the possibility of it being like
that.

545
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,200
Conversely, people that are
overly authoritarian and

546
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,880
disciplinarian, that can also
sometimes create help to create

547
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,640
narcissistic traits.
So it's kind of like the perfect

548
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,960
storm of things coming together,
right?

549
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,640
There's the biological
component, there's the

550
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,880
developmental, there's the
cultural upbringing kind of

551
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,280
situation.
If you're raised in a very, I've

552
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,920
known and worked with a few
people that have been sort of

553
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,280
brought up in really
fundamentalist religious

554
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,520
situations, more so with the
men, the women that can develop

555
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,480
kind of an acquired
narcissistic.

556
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,560
I'm the superior being and you
know, everything I should say,

557
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,320
should my family should do, but
doesn't always mean that

558
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,000
person's narcissistic, but it
can create like an overlay,

559
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,000
right, of narcissism because of
how they grew up.

560
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,480
So, so yeah, it's a little bit
of a perfect storm situation.

561
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,400
Sterling, tell me about your
newest book, Center of the

562
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,760
Universe.
OK, so center of the universe is

563
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,080
my the sequel to the my first
book, the narcissist and you and

564
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:58,800
everyone else.
So the first one is more of like

565
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,320
a a reference guide, if you
will, for the different 27

566
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,520
subtypes.
I talk about what narcissism is

567
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,080
and how to recognize these
different subtypes.

568
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,640
And I use movies and some
literary examples to to and case

569
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,720
studies to show that.
And then the second one is more

570
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,040
of a, so that was more zoomed in
into the psychological

571
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,640
personality piece.
This one, I zoom out and it's,

572
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,360
it's more looking at culturally,
what you know, how how

573
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,360
narcissism effects not only the
individual, but relationships,

574
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,160
work relationships, family,
political system.

575
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,160
So I zoom all the way out to see
the ways because narcissism

576
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,400
isn't just, yes, it has, I think
what most people think about her

577
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,760
is like being in a personal
relationship or a familiar

578
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,120
relationship with a narcissist,
but it has implications for the

579
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,040
whole culture, right?
And, and if there's narcissistic

580
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:55,080
values sort of in place in
different institutions, the, the

581
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,840
damage that that can cause.
And so I talk a lot about, you

582
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,760
know, like social media culture
and how it's made everyone a

583
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,920
little bit more narcissistic
than we used to be, where, you

584
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,760
know, everybody has a platform
and everybody thinks they should

585
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,200
be listened to.
And, and they should on one

586
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,680
level.
But but then on another level,

587
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,520
this this sort of entitlement of
like, I deserve an audience and

588
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,640
who's looking at my stories and
all of that.

589
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,800
It's created a culture where
narcissism is, is higher as a

590
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,360
cultural value.
And so I talk about that in the

591
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,880
book and you know, I just I try
to look at every facet, you

592
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,120
know, of human life in a
succinct way to show how

593
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,800
narcissism effects each one of
them.

594
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,520
So that's that was kind of the
focus of center of the universe,

595
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:41,760
which is why I called it that,
right?

596
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,320
Yeah, it's a great title.
Thanks.

597
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,000
And what is one thing that you
wish more men knew?

598
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,440
Oh, good question.
I think, I think, I wish more

599
00:32:53,440 --> 00:33:00,600
men knew that vulnerability is
not weakness.

600
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,560
It is can be a strength and it
sounds cliche because I'm sure

601
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,000
you've talked a lot about that,
but but it's just, it bears

602
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,640
repeating, right?
Because I think that someone who

603
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,400
studies narcissism and knows
that the protection, I mean, we

604
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,640
all are hardwired to protect
vulnerability.

605
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:20,640
But but it's also to me, it's
the doorway into not only

606
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,360
greater self acceptance, but
also like better relationships

607
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,800
with other people.
And so I just, I wish that was

608
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,720
more mid new that that, that
allowing in their own

609
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:35,640
learnability and showing it
occasionally to people is is a

610
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:37,400
really beautiful thing.
So yeah.

611
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,560
And finally, Sterling, where can
people go to learn more about

612
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:43,880
you?
What's the best way to connect

613
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,240
with you and all that you're
doing?

614
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,720
Yeah, so my my website,
sterlingmosley.com, my writing.

615
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,440
I I really want to sort of, I do
a lot of writing on my sub

616
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,520
stack, Sterling
mosley.substack.com and I have

617
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,760
lots of free articles and I have
some premium articles.

618
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,920
And so that's a good place to
follow my work.

619
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,960
And then of course, you can get
my books on Amazon or where

620
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,640
books are sold.
So and then my Enneagram

621
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:10,000
business consulting business for
people that are in the

622
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,199
personality typology is empathy
architects.

623
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,080
So that those are a few places
you can find.

624
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:15,920
Awesome.
Thanks for joining us.

625
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,880
Thanks for sharing all of your
insights, experience, expertise.

626
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:23,800
Hopefully we've got in a little
less of the unbalanced,

627
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:29,400
scattered misnomers out there.
Yeah, but you get a lot of work

628
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,280
out.
Big thank you to Sterling Mosley

629
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,600
for helping us unpack narcissism
in a way that goes deeper than

630
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,960
memes and headlines.
Remember, growth starts with

631
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:40,840
awareness, whether it's in
recognizing narcissistic traits

632
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,800
of somebody else or bravely
noticing them in yourself.

633
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,960
If you'd like more real, honest
conversations about masculinity,

634
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,840
emotions, and healing, join the
authentic AF community at

635
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,239
realmenfield.org/group.
And until next time.

636
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:56,760
Be good to yourself.