Breaking Out Of The Man Box: Betting On Yourself and Redefining Masculinity

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What are some of the biggest
myths or stigma around domestic

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violence or trauma in general
that you were out to dismantle?

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This doesn't happen to me that
you're a worse.

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You're somehow looked at as
small or weak for naming those

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wounds, for having emotions, for
talking about them.

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Hello and.
Welcome to Real Men feel, I'm

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your host Andy Grant.
Today we have a very special

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conversation.
My guest is Eugene Z Bertrand, a

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master of social work candidate
at Columbia University, an

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advocate for trauma informed
mental health care and a first

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time author.
Eugene is also someone who told

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me that Real Men Feel single
handedly changed his life, which

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makes this moment even more
meaningful for both of us.

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In this episode, Eugene shares
his journey of turning pain into

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purpose, reframing trauma as
resilience, and naming the

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wounds we're so often told to
stay silent about.

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We'll explore how vulnerability
leads to healing, why

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representation and mental health
matters, and what it looks like

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to bet on yourself.
And if you want to continue

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conversations like this, join my
private online community,

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Authentic AF, at
realmenfeel.org/group.

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Let's do it.
Hello Eugene, and welcome to

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Real Men Feel.
Thank you so much.

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Thanks for having me.
Eugene, when we first spoke, you

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shared that real men feel had
had a real impact on your life

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and it was a big moment for you
to even decide to reach out.

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So what does it mean for you to
be here today, which I I believe

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is your first podcast?
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

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Yeah.
Listen, man, being here is it's

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it's almost like surreal because
I think sometimes what tends to

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happen is you have the imposter
syndrome.

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You're like, should I reach out?
Should I not reach out?

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Am I good enough to even reach
out?

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And sometimes you just have to
take the chance on yourself and

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just do it.
I think being here is, it's just

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a testament to like all the, the
great work that you're doing.

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And I'm, I'm, I'm really happy
just to be here and just kind of

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being in the community.
I think what inspired me to

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reach out was talking more about
the man box with my friends that

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I learned about here.
So how does that go?

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How how do you bring up the man
box in in chatting with friends?

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Often times what ends up
happening is we're, we're just

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having a casual conversation.
And then there's just, there's

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just things that are said and
I'm just like, no, like you

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don't have to respond in that
way.

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You don't have to think in this
way.

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There's another option.
I think so often, Andy, a lot of

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men are, are, are trained to
have like one way of thinking.

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Like you're not supposed to
feel, you're not supposed to

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have these emotions.
And I've always been the type of

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person to kind of just say
what's on my mind and the

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respect the way, of course.
And I was like, listen, bro,

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like it does not have to be this
way.

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I know, especially for black
men.

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Shout out to my brother Dawood.
I was watching that episode and

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he talked about the man box in
the black community.

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And it is much smaller because
there is such a stigma with male

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vulnerability and talking about
your emotions.

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And, you know, I think when I'm
talking about the man box and

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having those conversations with
my brothers, it's just all about

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having the opportunity to to to
encourage them to think about

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things in a different way
because it doesn't always have

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to be the way that society has
taught us to think about things.

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So I've heard you say that you
want to exist for who you are,

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not just what you've gone
through.

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So what does that distinction
mean to you?

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Yeah.
So I am a survivor of domestic

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violence myself.
And as I was writing my book, I

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was recognizing that the best
way to kind of heal is to

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express yourself creatively.
That's through poetry.

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That's through whatever type of
creative writing that is.

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And I think that so often we can
become defined by what we've

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been through.
And I try to just challenge

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myself every single day to
acknowledge it, recognize that,

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Have grace for what's happened,
have that radical acceptance for

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the situation, whatever type of
situation that has occurred in

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my life.
But really try to encourage

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myself to just be the best
person that I can be.

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Show up every single day and
look myself in the mirror and

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say, Eugene, you got this,
Eugene, you're destined for

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great things.
Eugene, you deserve XY and Z.

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And honestly, man, like that's
the best thing I've ever done in

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my life.
And I just learned how to do

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that a few months ago myself.
And from there, everything has

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just been great in my life.
But it starts with yourself.

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Cool and I'm glad you said
creativity 'cause that's

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something that a lot of guys
don't lean into, don't explore.

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But you know, I believe
regardless of any religious

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beliefs, the the power that
creates worlds is literally

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within all of us.
A. 100%, I agree with you 100%.

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And I think again, I think it
goes towards that point of

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society.
Like I think often times we

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think about things through one
specific way.

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And I think creativity is
another way that we can kind of

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open up and say, oh, you can
express yourself through

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creativity.
You can express yourself through

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art.
You can express yourself through

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singing, through spoken word
poetry.

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All of these great things that
can help you reinvest within

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yourself can really be so
transformative.

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And and even like I explained,
creativity to really have no

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bound.
So if you pave streets for a

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living, yeah, you know, that's
creating something that's

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creating something.
It's artistic.

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But you maybe you, you have
pride in making.

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I'm making the best Dang street
I can make today, right?

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Best Dang street I can make
today, man, And that's the

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that's what I really try to just
encourage myself to do everyday

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and just have that acceptance,
like and just recognizing that

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there are so many ways you can
express yourself.

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At least for me when I was
mentioning my book, that's

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that's that's how I to express
myself.

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It's through creativity, poetry,
spoken word, writing, different

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things, a whole bunch of great
things, you know?

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So let's get to your book.
Your book is called Resilience,

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Breaking the Chains and you talk
about reframing trauma and

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turning pain into purpose.
What was the spark that made you

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want to write this?
I think that's a great question,

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Andy.
I think what made me want to sit

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down and say, oh, I'm going to
write this book was first, you

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know, after enduring my own
situation with domestic violence

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and, you know, really having the
opportunity to sit with it and

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acknowledge that I am a
survivor.

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And I think when, especially as
a man talking about it, it can

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get so stigmatized.
And when I'm so grateful for the

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community that I have, my
brothers, I call my friends that

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are men, my brothers.
Having that community there for

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me was really great in so many
different ways, but it was also

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extremely transformative because
when I was able to have that

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conversation, like, bro, like
this really just happened to me

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and this is how it's making me
feel.

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I was embraced and I was, you
know, grateful to be in a

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position where they were able to
listen to me and they were able

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to actually emphasize and relate
to my experience.

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And so I think the motivation
with writing my book, Andy, was

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recognizing my own experience
was too powerful and too

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familiar with other men to keep
to myself.

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Because another thing that I
recognized in having a

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conversation with my brothers
was them saying Eugene, like

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this also happened to me.
Domestic violence can have so

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many different forms, but
hearing them actually say the

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word domestic violence was so
transformative.

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So again, really my motivation
in writing it was just really

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recognizing that it's so much
more than me.

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There's so many other men that
are dealing with this that have

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dealt with it, and it's so
stigmatized.

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So the book really helps to just
kind of challenge that stigma.

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And you talk about naming wounds
and why that's important instead

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of the things that society says
keep quiet about.

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So might you name your
experience more clearly?

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What, like what?
What exactly had you gone

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through?
Yeah.

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So it was, it was, it was a
number of situations, Andy, but

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I endured a situation where I
almost died.

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And I think going into a
situation like that and coming

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out of it and actually living,
not only is it incredibly

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traumatizing, but it's also
extremely transformative again,

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because you're able to really
live another day.

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I think so often we take our
lives for granted and you know,

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we do stupid stuff all the time.
But I can confidently say that I

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almost lost my life and that was
due to domestic violence.

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And every single day after that,
I've just really tried my best

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to live my every single day like
it's my last and to just make

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sure that I'm being kind and I'm
being vulnerable.

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Because I could say that before
that situation happened to me

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where I almost lost my life due
to domestic violence, I can't

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say I was always the most
vulnerable.

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I can't say that I was always
the person that wore their heart

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on their sleeve.
I'm sure I did in some capacity,

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but now I really tried to make
it a point to be very

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intentional with actions that I
take those interpersonally as

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well.
I really just tried to be very

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cautious and just be extremely
mindful of, you know, every

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single day because it could be
taken from you like this.

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What are some of the biggest
myths or stigma around domestic

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violence or trauma in general
that you are out to dismantle?

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This doesn't happen to me that
you're a wuss that you you're

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somehow looked at as small or
weak for naming those wounds,

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for having emotions, for talking
about them, especially talking

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about them with their kids,
talking about them with your

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community, whoever that might be
or whichever community that

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might be.
But I really, I think the top

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three would just be those and
just really trying to just kind

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of dismantle that whole, you
know, I don't have emotions

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thing because you do.
Oh, that whole I'm a wuss if I

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talk about these emotions
because you're not.

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And oh, if I talk about it like
I'm going to be looked at as

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small and that's just not the
reality.

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I think we have to learn that we
have to also recognize that we

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are in 2025.
Things are changing and

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conversations are very different
than they were in 1925 or 1825.

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I think we have to really try to
start being comfortable with

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saying I'm in need of support
and I really need to lean on you

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for that.
I'm in need of support and I

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need some support from you in
order for me to feel comfortable

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in the getting that support.
Right.

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Yeah, I often say that the
bravest thing a man can do often

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is ask for help. 100 percent,
100%.

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Like I think the other thing
that I've noticed, Andy, is that

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when asking for help as a man,
it's almost, well, it, it is

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stigmatized and it's almost not
always met with compassion.

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Sometimes it's met with why do
you, you can't do this?

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You're a man, you could do this,
but that's not the reality.

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You know, like, I think we all
need to have some type of space

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and the community to say, I need
support and I need it now and

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have that be something that's,
you know, looked at as highly

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rather than something that's
frowned upon.

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You know, 2025, like I said,
man, we have to, we really need

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to kind of come out of that,
that, that that whole mindset

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because what's happening, and I
talk about it in my book, we're

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losing our fathers, we're losing
our brothers, we're losing our

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sons because people don't feel
like they have that support.

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So you already mentioned that
the man box is even more

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constrictive for Black men.
So as a Black man going into the

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mental health profession, what
are some of the unique

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challenges and opportunities
that you'll face?

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In terms of asking for help, in
terms of accessibility,

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sometimes the help is not always
accessible.

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Sometimes you can't get that.
And that can be a manner of

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things like, man, how much time
do you have?

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I, I think that's, there's so
many different things that us

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black men feel like we can't get
that support.

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I think often times we need to
kind of see it in order to feel

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comfortable doing it.
And often times it's comes from

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00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:54,240
generations back from
generations and generations and

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generations.
If we don't see our fathers

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saying, you know, I need help,
you know, I need some support, I

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really would like for this to
change in my life.

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If we don't see that
vulnerability in front of our

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faces, most likely we're not
going to be able to do the same

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thing.
I think when it's seen, it's

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easier to kind of say, you know
what, I could do this too,

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because it's accepted.
Oftentimes what happens in the

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black community, especially when
it comes to men in mental

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health, you're, you're, you're
encouraged to kind of keep

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things in the home.
Oftentimes what's said is what

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happens at home stays at home,
what happens in the house stays

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in the house, and that doesn't
really do anybody any good.

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Is there anything a man can do
to sort of take a small step or

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practice vulnerability since so
many messages are telling him

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00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,320
shut up?
Yeah.

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00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:47,760
Yeah, that's a really good
question, Andy.

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I think the first thing that I
could kind of say would be to

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look at yourself every single
day in the mirror, like maybe

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very intentional about it and
practice it like regularly say,

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I deserve to be the best person
I can be.

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00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:07,080
I'm strong, I am worthy, I am
vulnerable because you know,

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00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,840
the, the power of the tongue is
so strong, man.

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I'm sure you know, the power of
the tongue is just so strong.

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00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,160
And if you're looking at
yourself in the mirror and

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you're saying this, nine times
out of 10, your brain will be

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00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,240
able to restructure that and
your brain will be able to say,

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00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,040
you know what you are.
You're going to start believing

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00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,560
these things that you are
saying, even if you don't

255
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,080
necessarily believe it now,
who's to say that you're not

256
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,200
going to believe it two weeks
from now?

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00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,560
And I'm saying that this works
because I'm a testament that

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I've done it myself and it's
worked wonders.

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00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:45,600
Like I said, man, I almost lost
my life and I did a total 180.

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Like I was a great man before in
my opinion.

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But I think what I recognized
was that there was such a stigma

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with vulnerability, male
vulnerability.

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00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,320
So the the first book I ever
wrote was all about positive

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00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,280
affirmations.
And more than the list of

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00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,920
affirmations, it was how to use
them and mirror work.

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Looking in the mirror is one of
my favorite ways.

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I find it incredibly powerful.
But when I started, I could not

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hold my own gaze.
Like that's how afraid of being.

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I didn't want myself to see
myself.

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It's not easy at all, man.
Like I think we have to, in

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00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:20,120
order to break the silence, we
would have to really talk about

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00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,880
it.
Like if you talk about it in so

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00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,160
many different ways, whether
that's through affirmations or

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that's with trusted family,
friends or whoever.

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Because in real life, you know
when you're able to tell your

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00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:36,080
friends, 9 times out of 10 they
know somebody or it's happening

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00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,680
to them, something that you're
going through, other people are

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00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,880
also going through.
Yeah, and I said especially for

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00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,080
men, if, if, if you're in a
men's circle, even just casually

280
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:47,840
with friends.
And yeah, the first guy that

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00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,000
shares something, there's often
like that's when the

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00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:51,840
competitiveness of guys will
kick in.

283
00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:54,080
Like, Oh well, if you're going
to share something deep, let me

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00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,680
let me show you this.
Yeah, 100%.

285
00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:03,200
And just normalizing things that
sold for so long were were were

286
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,800
so stigmatized, normalizing
those, having those difficult

287
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,760
conversations, having
communities like the authentic

288
00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,000
AF community that I'm so happy
to be a part of, naming these

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00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,920
communities where you're able to
commute and have conversations

290
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,840
that are always the easiest to
have can really be life

291
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:22,920
changing, man.
It's just that change culture.

292
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,520
Like we can really work together
in solidarity to challenge that

293
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,560
man up message and affirm things
that affirm things like

294
00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:37,120
vulnerability and affirm that
that vulnerability is indeed

295
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:39,800
strength.
So I know you work as a

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00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,240
mitigation specialist in a
federal public defender's

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00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,720
office.
Can you explain what that role

298
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,600
is?
So basically what we do is we

299
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:55,920
work hard to try to look at some
of the other factors that folks

300
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,040
are charged with with federal
crimes.

301
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,920
So I think often times what ends
up happening is folks are being

302
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,119
presented in front of the judge
and the judges is looking at the

303
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:08,280
charge.
So with our job, what I like to

304
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,240
say is that we are helping the
client have a voice.

305
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:16,839
So we're going back generations,
generations, sometimes 1-2

306
00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:20,640
generations back to talk about
what were those other factors

307
00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:25,680
that might have contributed to
committing XY and Z crime.

308
00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:31,720
Why is it important to have
alternatives to incarceration?

309
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,960
Because you know.
I'm a firm believer that there

310
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:41,280
has to be rehabilitation because
you sitting in some type of

311
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:46,800
confinement thinking about your
crime will do what you'll leave

312
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,840
prison or you'll leave being
incarcerated and most likely

313
00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:56,080
recommit you are in some types
of groups throughout the day.

314
00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,440
You're sitting there doing XY
and Z, but often times when you

315
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,240
leave, you're leaving the same
person that you came in.

316
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,600
And having that rehabilitation,
having access to resources,

317
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,400
having access to things like
therapeutic support, having

318
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,040
access to things like having a
community, doing things like

319
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,200
going into the garden and
gardening, enjoying things that

320
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,600
aren't just being confined in
some type of solidary

321
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,920
confinement can be so, so
transformative.

322
00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,360
Listen, man, I'm all about that
rehabilitation because being

323
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:36,080
incarcerated, it's not going to
do anything.

324
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:40,680
Yes, I committed the crime, but
me committing the crime and me

325
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,240
coming out to become a
conscientious member of society

326
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,280
are two very different things.
Having alternatives to

327
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:50,480
incarceration is incredibly
significant in my opinion.

328
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,400
Yeah, we've developed into
nothing but a system of

329
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:55,600
punishment only.
Yeah.

330
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,920
Especially we have to also
recognize that there are

331
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:04,480
communities of people that have
only seen punishment.

332
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,080
And I think what I really love
about my work doing mitigation

333
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,840
work is that it helps to bring
in another lens that a lot of

334
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,560
people don't always see from
just looking at the paper of

335
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,320
what the charges are.
We're talking about their

336
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,960
upbringing.
We're talking about, oh, maybe

337
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,760
mom and dad were addicted to XY
and Z drug.

338
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,880
They didn't have the support
that they needed because they

339
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:32,680
were, you know, too busy trying
to sell drugs in order to help

340
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,160
pay the bills so that they can
go to school.

341
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:42,400
Having those conversations can
go so far and being able to be

342
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,160
vulnerable in that way and
seeing somebody help to fight

343
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:52,320
for you to be able to either get
set free or be able to kind of

344
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,320
lessen a sentence that is
extremely harsh that you might

345
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,760
have committed at 21 years old
so you're not sitting in there

346
00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,240
until you're 43 years old is
amazing.

347
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:04,080
Sometimes you need to see
somebody fight for you to

348
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,320
recognize.
How much power you have within

349
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,960
yourself and that you do mean
something and people are here to

350
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:15,240
show you that you do matter.
From your perspective, what's

351
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,440
the connection between trauma,
mental health, and

352
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:20,760
incarceration?
I.

353
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:23,160
Think that's a really good
question.

354
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,920
I think that the connection, I
think it's all really

355
00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,920
interconnected.
I think that with incarceration,

356
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:37,000
there are some folks that are in
there that might have a long

357
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,320
scent of trauma that's not
talked about.

358
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:44,480
Is that because one, there was
never a space to be created to

359
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,760
talk about those things?
Is it because it was

360
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,320
stigmatized?
Is it because they don't know

361
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,640
how to verbalize that and
whether it's coming out it's

362
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,200
through anger, which is why they
are incarcerated in the 1st

363
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,520
place?
Is it because they are suffering

364
00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:02,120
from some type of mental health
diagnosis that has not been

365
00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:05,040
diagnosed yet?
I think they're all very

366
00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:07,520
interconnected.
And I think that with our

367
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:12,320
incarceration system, it hasn't
always thought about it in that

368
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,000
way, but we talked about it in a
social sense.

369
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,680
But I think what ends up
happening is that when it is

370
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,440
going up in front of a court,
when it's going up in the front

371
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,720
of a judge, I think when it gets
to legalities and things like

372
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,800
that, I think we kind of forget.
And we look at the crime and we

373
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,920
look at the statue, the charge.
How does this ride to X amount

374
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,400
of statute?
How does this rise to this

375
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,640
level?
And the amount of years that

376
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,760
we're going to give them without
recognizing the trauma, without

377
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,640
recognizing the mental health
status, the mental health

378
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,640
diagnosis, and what that family
history could have been and how

379
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,000
that could have and how all of
those things really could have

380
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:57,760
contributed to X amount of
crimes which led to this

381
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:02,240
outcome.
So is that what a a trauma

382
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,640
informed justice system looks
like, taking all those things

383
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:06,240
into consideration?
Or is it more?

384
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,000
I think it's a whole bunch.
Like I, I think you really have

385
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,400
to come from a lens of power,
race, oppression and privilege

386
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,280
in our society and recognize
that these things are so

387
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:23,640
multifaceted and we can't look
at it through 1 lens because or

388
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,840
one person making a decision for
somebody that might not have

389
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,880
experienced what they've
experienced through what I'm

390
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,560
learning at Columbia, the prop
lens, power, race, depression

391
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,560
and privilege.
That's one sided.

392
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,840
You're not attacking the issue
because what's going to happen,

393
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:40,240
you're going to give them all
these years.

394
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,960
But when they come out and if
they recommit, that's a life

395
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,920
that could have been a
conscientious member of society,

396
00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:51,680
but it's almost doing their
disservice to them because

397
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,600
they're not, You're not.
You're not going back and

398
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,520
saying, listen, let me talk to
like a human.

399
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:03,440
Let me understand from my
understanding why you might have

400
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,680
committed this crime.
I've heard you use the phrase

401
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:07,920
betting on yourself.
Yeah.

402
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,760
What does that mean to you and
how can others practice it?

403
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,720
Yeah, man, betting on yourself.
Listen, let me start with how

404
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:18,040
can other?
Well, let me start with the

405
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,600
story.
So growing up, I had ADHD and

406
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:26,160
anxiety, and I grew up in a
community where they were not

407
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:31,960
giving me support and I really
had to bet on myself and I had

408
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,080
to have grace with recognizing
that my brain just functions

409
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,560
different than other people's.
And there's really nothing wrong

410
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,120
with that.
That was my first experience of

411
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,400
having vulnerability within
myself and having to share that

412
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,120
with other people.
So that was really interesting,

413
00:23:48,120 --> 00:23:52,160
but I think betting on yourself
really does mean that you have

414
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,680
to take the chance on yourself
because too often, man, I think

415
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,640
what ends up happening is we
don't do those things that we

416
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,000
wish we could have done because
of that imposter syndrome,

417
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,640
because we feel like, you know,
it might not work on our favor.

418
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,800
We might be let down, if I'm
being so honest, Andy, like we

419
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,880
kind of talked about earlier, I
was nervous to even reach out.

420
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,200
I watch, I, I listen to real men
feel all the time.

421
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,680
And like I, I had to tell myself
like you have to really bet on

422
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,120
yourself, Eugene, because I, you
know, you really feel like

423
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:29,920
there's a message that you can
share that can be so

424
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,800
transformative and really change
people's lives.

425
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,520
Like the like the lessons and
experiences that you've heard

426
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,520
that have changed your life.
This is tough of mine right now

427
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,000
for me so I I just want to throw
this out there but I am much

428
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,160
more likely to respond to
Someone Like You reaching out

429
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,920
than the internationally known
author on his 10th book and just

430
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,400
being another stop at someone's
book tour.

431
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,080
I ignore those people all the
time so if there's anyone else

432
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,360
like Wayne I think I get a story
to tell like that.

433
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,920
Why this exists?
Listen, man, I agree.

434
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,720
I think you really have to allow
people the opportunity to grow.

435
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,000
You have to allow people the
opportunity to bet on

436
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,520
themselves, really, because
everybody has to start

437
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:10,840
somewhere.
You know what I'm saying, man,

438
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,760
Everybody really does have to
start somewhere.

439
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,600
And if you don't have that that
that starting place, it's hard

440
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,440
to find your grounding.
And kind of similar to betting

441
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:22,960
on yourself, a phrase I've heard
of.

442
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,120
And you know you are the best
investment you've got.

443
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,600
So anything you give to
yourself, writing your book,

444
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,480
going on podcast is all only
going to support you and others

445
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:34,800
even.
Yeah, that's a man.

446
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,000
I think as much as you can pour
into others, you really have to

447
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,360
be able to pour into yourself.
And I think for me, you know,

448
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:43,960
that looks like eating well,
exercising, very like I go to

449
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,040
the gym every single morning at
5:00.

450
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,160
And I mean, I'm normally just an
early riser.

451
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,800
And I mean, Andy, if I'm being
honest, I can't hang.

452
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,520
I can't go to sleep at 12.
AMI can't do that.

453
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,240
I'm in bed by like 930.
I can't do it.

454
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:01,720
That's also sleep hygiene.
That's taking care of yourself.

455
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,640
And you're the best investment,
like you said, that you can make

456
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,840
in yourself.
As much as you can pour into

457
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,000
other people, you have to be
able to pour into yourself to

458
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,920
really feel that gratification
in order for your brain to say

459
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,440
good job.
Yeah, you can't give what you

460
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:17,720
don't have.
Can't you?

461
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,160
You can't.
You just can't, man.

462
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:22,960
And that's another thing that I
really also talk about in my

463
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,120
book.
It's, it's investing in

464
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:27,480
yourself.
When something traumatizing

465
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,680
happens to you, oftentimes
people just say, oh, I went to

466
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,840
therapy and it was fine.
Well, what other things did you

467
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,160
do?
Did you invest in yourself by

468
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,880
eating well?
Did you invest in yourself by

469
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,840
surrounding yourself with people
that make you feel good?

470
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,000
Did you learn a new hobby?
Did you look at yourself in the

471
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,040
mirror and really fit and and
and have gratitude and have that

472
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,440
radical acceptance for what has
occurred without really judging

473
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,280
it?
So looking ahead, as you finish

474
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,640
your Masters of social work,
what sort of impact do you hope

475
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,760
to have in in private practice
and general advocacy?

476
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,200
Yeah, Listen, man, I, I really
want to be able to do something

477
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,880
very simple.
I the only thing that I want to

478
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,240
be able to do is be a
conscientious member of society

479
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:18,680
and also encourage others to do
the same.

480
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:22,280
I think that can look different
to so many different people,

481
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,800
whether that's doing something
as simple as cutting any of this

482
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,280
song if they didn't ask you to
and knowing that your neighbor

483
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,400
is ill or disabled and they're
going to have to hire somebody.

484
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,720
And just leaning more into
vulnerability through that and

485
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,720
just really encouraging other
people to do the same thing,

486
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,480
especially men.
Eugene, is there a, a practice,

487
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,200
a book, or a mindset shift that
really helped you that you would

488
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:56,360
like to share?
I think listening to brown noise

489
00:27:56,360 --> 00:28:00,680
has really, really helped me.
It's a higher frequency than or

490
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,480
I think it's a lower frequency
actually than white noise.

491
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,520
It helps you focus.
It helps you just kind of hone

492
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:08,840
in and really kind of get into
things.

493
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,680
Like I mentioned earlier, I grew
up and I struggled with ADHD and

494
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,680
when I found out the power of
brown noise changed my life.

495
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,920
And I think the also the also
then another thing that I'd like

496
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,760
to share is that you really have
to be very intentional with

497
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:26,680
investing in yourself.
I know we talked about that a

498
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:31,600
lot, but again, like doing those
daily affirmations every single

499
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,960
morning I wake up, I drink my
water, I go right into the

500
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,960
bathroom, I turn my light on
even if I'm exhausted and you

501
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,600
know, it hurts when you see the
light.

502
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,720
Like, you know what I'm saying?
I have affirmations all over my

503
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:49,480
house and I specifically have
these three, I have three, these

504
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,640
three affirmations on my mirror
and it says you are strong, you

505
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,520
are capable and you are
resilient.

506
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,000
Because if I'm saying that to
myself first thing in the

507
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,600
morning, that's it.
I have the control over my day.

508
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,120
That's, that's it.
You know, those are the three

509
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,320
things that I say to myself
every single morning.

510
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,760
And when it comes to mind for
me, so when I was really

511
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,880
depressed and struggling with
suicidal thoughts on my mirror,

512
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,440
it said the most important thing
today is that I feel good.

513
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,000
Yeah, see.
And that was it.

514
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:25,560
Yeah, and how did they make you?
Feel sometimes not good.

515
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,800
But you, yeah, good.
Not real, I think.

516
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,320
Like, I think affirmations are
meant if they all feel

517
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:31,960
comfortable, you got to change
them.

518
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,640
Yeah, I think I found they're
meant to stir some things up.

519
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:39,360
Stir up the lies. 90% right.
Yeah. 100% man like, but that's

520
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,520
also really healing.
I feel like it's it's it's

521
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,920
you're helping to kind of
refrain your mindset, refrain

522
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,000
your brain.
And you know, I'm a firm

523
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,800
believer that healing, healing
really does begin in the moment

524
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,680
that, you know, you refuse to
carry whatever type of sounds

525
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,200
that you're carrying any longer.
And I don't know, I feel like

526
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,400
that's how you're able to break
the chains in my book results

527
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,600
breaking the chains.
But I feel like that's how we're

528
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:09,320
able to kind of break those
chains by or break those chains

529
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,480
by by doing things like
investing in yourself, being

530
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,000
vulnerable, speaking, by
reaching out and by really just

531
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,200
choosing yourself, man, just
remembering that healing it, it

532
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,120
really does begin the moment
that you refuse to carry the

533
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,520
silence any longer, wherever
that silence may be, whether

534
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,480
that be you're dealing with
domestic violence, whether that

535
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,760
be you're dealing with
depression, anxiety, suicidal

536
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,640
thoughts.
But that's how you're able to

537
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,320
break the chains once you're
able to refuse to carry that any

538
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,240
longer.
But I think that, you know,

539
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,240
everybody has their own journey.
And I really do think that if

540
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,960
you start those mornings with
those affirmations and you're

541
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:55,800
saying to yourself, I trust
myself through those lens, you

542
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,280
know, you might be OK.
Eugene, what's the best way for

543
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,280
people to connect with you and
learn more about all you're?

544
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,480
Up to absolutely.
So you can go to my website

545
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,400
eugenezbertrand.com and I'm also
on LinkedIn and that's the best

546
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,200
way to connect with me.
And finally, what's one thing

547
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,200
you wish more men knew?
Being vulnerable isn't a

548
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,440
weakness.
Being vulnerable is a strength.

549
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:27,240
And really tuning into that
masculinity with being

550
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,600
vulnerable and naming that is
transformative within itself.

551
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,800
You just have to take that
chance and be vulnerable.

552
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,800
Awesome.
Thanks so much for joining me.

553
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,080
Thanks so much for reaching out.
Yeah, thanks so much for doing

554
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,640
the work on yourself.
I believe the ripple effect of

555
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,920
you being you is going to be
deep, wide and profound.

556
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,200
I appreciate that man, it's just
you have to bet on yourself

557
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,400
sometimes.
All the time.

558
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,000
All the time, all the time,
every single time.

559
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,360
I appreciate you having me man.
Thank you so much.

560
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,960
Big thanks to Eugene for his
courage, his vision, and his

561
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,840
willingness to make his very
first podcast appearance with us

562
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,480
here on Real Men Feel.
His story is a reminder that our

563
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,640
wounds do not define us.
They can guide us to resilience,

564
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,160
connection, and purpose.
If today's conversation

565
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,400
resonated with you, remember you
do not have to walk this path

566
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,960
alone.
Join me and other men, including

567
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,520
Eugene, who are choosing
authenticity, courage, and

568
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,320
growth inside the authentic AF
community.

569
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,760
Visit realmenfeel.org/group.
It's where men stop pretending

570
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,360
and start connecting.
Until next time, be good to

571
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:35,680
yourself.