Healing from Sexual Compulsion: The Power of Mindful Habits

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I got one YouTube video and it's
the cure for sex and porn

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addiction.
I haven't changed it because it

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is still my truth 13 years
later.

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The cure is the aggressive
pursuit of a great life.

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Anything short of that will
fail.

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It's too difficult a problem to
break without you feeling good

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about yourself, having
community, doing all the things

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that you talk about on your
podcast and.

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Hello and welcome to Real Men
Feel.

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I'm your host Andy Grant here to
remind you that being a man is

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not about suppressing your
emotions, it's about feeling

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them and living your life
authentically.

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Today's guest is someone that
has walked through the fire and

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built a path for others to
follow.

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Craig Para is a world renowned
expert in overcoming compulsive

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sexual behaviors, sex addiction
and porn addiction.

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He's the Co founder of the
Mindful Habits System with his

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wife Michelle, helping thousands
of people from all walks of life

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take control of their habits and
transform their lives.

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Craig knows first hand the
devastation of addiction and the

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power of building a system that
works when traditional

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approaches fail.
Today, we're going to explore

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what really drives compulsive
behaviors, how shame keeps men

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stuck, and what it looks like to
lead all parts of yourself,

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especially the ones you hate.
If you're looking for a

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supportive community, check out
Authentic AF, my free online

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community at
realmanfield.org/group.

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Let's do it all right, Craig.
Hello and welcome to Real

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Manfield.
Hey, man, it's good to be here.

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Thanks, Andy.
So Craig, I know in AI guess in

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a prior life you are a
high-powered attorney and what

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forced you to kind of pause and
take a look at what how you were

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leading your life?
Yeah, wasn't a pause, it was a

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the brakes applied abruptly as
humanly possible.

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So make a Long story short,
always been really successful

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professionally.
An executive attorney kept

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getting bigger and bigger jobs.
I got fired from my job back

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east for telling a stupid white
lie to my boss, which you cannot

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do.
You cannot lie in the office of

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the general counsel or any
position of authority.

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Quite frankly, as soon as you
lie, your credibility is pretty

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much shot.
Now, with luck, all the next

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day.
But I'm the comeback kid.

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I had a better job.
Now.

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Listen, while all this is
happening, Andy, I'm breaking

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down.
So I get a job in California.

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The company moves me out here.
I'm now an executive for a very

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large insurance company.
Biggest responsibility that I've

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ever had in my life.
I hated it.

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I hated the job.
I felt I was trapped.

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I rebelled against that, and oh
boy, did I rebel against that.

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I ended up being hospitalized
after trying to hurt myself.

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I was fired from that job.
That firing and that attempt to

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hurt myself was the big wake up
call for me because I knew,

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Andy, that I couldn't keep doing
the same things that had been

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producing that outcome.
And I had done, you know,

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traditional therapy.
I had done, you know, meetings.

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And it's not their fault it
didn't work.

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It's all my fault it didn't
work.

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But I needed something different
and and that's what ultimately

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led me to where to me talking to
you now.

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But yeah, that was the low
point, Andy.

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What did you do to take care of
yourself that became the

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foundation for how you now serve
other people?

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Yeah, great question.
And let me be clear, right, get

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therapy.
You know, I want everyone

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listening to this to get help
to, you know, have someone in

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your corner.
We can't do it alone, guys.

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But I, I found, so when I got
out of the inpatient facility, I

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got an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of
paper prescribing me the things

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that I needed to do going
forward.

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And for some reason, Andy, I
don't know why I expected this,

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but I expected it to be
something different.

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I had expectations.
We were finally going to crack

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the code.
This time it was an, it was an

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inpatient facility.
It's, it's, it's not the place

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where anyway it, it was a
really, really very, very low

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point.
But I get this prescription for

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more therapy, more meetings.
I was more depressed at that

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moment because I'd spent a
lifetime in therapy going back

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to childhood peeling lay the
layers of the onion, the, the

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sexual assaults, the physical
assaults, the, you know, mom and

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dad and, and all that, you know,
important work.

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But here I was at my lowest
point.

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So I had this vision that I had
to do something differently and

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I found a counselor who didn't
subscribe to the disease based

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model of addiction when it came
to compulsive sexual behavior.

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And this therapist also taught
me tools, ultimately hired me,

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and then that's how I ended up
where I am today.

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But it really started at that
low point, Andy.

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I needed something different.
What I was doing wasn't working.

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I was challenging the, the, the,
the notion that talking about

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your problems once a week is
going to produce great outcomes.

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And while I think that that is
incredibly important for some

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people, I needed more.
And, and ultimately I built it

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that that's what gave birth to
the mindful habit system.

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And 15 years later, you know,
still going strong, kicking ass

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and taking names.
But it all started at that low

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point, realizing that I needed
something more.

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One thing that I'm amazed in
your story is that your

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relationship with your wife
didn't just survive this it it

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evolved and you you are Co
creators of this.

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The mindful habit system is
that.

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Right, Yeah, we are.
And the we just celebrated my

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wife's 50th birthday.
Literally we've got a friend

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over here in the other room and
other friends, you know, flew in

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and we had an amazing time.
She's my business partner, my

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life partner.
She saved my life at my low

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point, and I'm obviously very
grateful for that.

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But yeah, And you have to
thrive, Andy.

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We teach that you have to
thrive.

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You cannot come out of sex
addiction, porn addiction,

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mental illness, whatever you
want to call it and be mediocre

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or be just OK.
You know, just OK wasn't enough

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for me, although I thought it
was.

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But there I was finding myself
back in some of the same holes.

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So yeah, your relationship is
such an important part of your

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physical health and mental
health.

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And we teach people that it has
to thrive if it's going to

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survive and you're going to be
happy.

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So you mentioned some childhood
physical and sexual assault.

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Do you feel that that set you up
for sexual challenges and issues

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as an adult?
Absolutely.

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Absolutely.
So my mother was physically

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abusive.
My therapist called it the worst

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form of abuse he had ever seen
in 17 years.

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Now I don't believe that I, I, I
might my mind.

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So that was an act of compassion
because I've been doing this for

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13 years and I've seen some
pretty horrible stuff.

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I had food, shelter, clothing,
soccer practice, soccer

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tournaments, wrestling
tournaments, Disney World.

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There.
There was a lot of things that

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were going right.
However, my attitudes towards

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women, I was first woman gave me
up for adoption.

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I was adopted as an infant.
The second woman, despite her

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best intentions, hurt me.
I got scars all over my hands

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and arms from that abuse.
And what that did was it made me

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susceptible to the older
neighborhood boy who had parents

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who didn't look after him at a
whole basement to himself.

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And he had porn and a pool table
TV and a Mac.

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You know, before people even had
Macs, we played Wolfenstein.

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So the irony is, is that the the
place where, you know, and I'd

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say I was being touched.
There was an age difference, but

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we were, you know, participating
in, you know, mutually

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consensual stuff most of the
time.

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There were a couple of moments
that certainly blurred the line

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because I was younger.
But yeah, that's where the

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secret started.
And the shame.

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How big a role does shame play
in keeping men stuck in kind of

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any self-destructive behavior
they might be in?

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I want permission to change this
answer later on, but I'll say

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Andy, it's the most impactful.
It is the most dangerous, it is

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the most nefarious, because it's
not like you did something

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wrong.
It's that you are wrong.

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You know, shame and guilt are
two different things or or even,

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you know, good shame moral
compass reminded me it's a

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little, you know, I don't want
to be.

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That's not what this was.
This was a drowning, worthless

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piece of shit kind of shame that
cuts me and my clients to their

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core because it's evidence that
they are in fact not worthy of

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love or not worthy of repair,
not worthy of grace and

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forgiveness.
Which obviously is ridiculously

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true, but shame is massively
impactful.

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How do you help clients break
free from that that weight of

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shame?
A couple things #1 when people

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start the program, Andy, I want
them anchored as quickly as we

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can to their purpose.
Like why are they here?

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There is a lot of data that says
people who have purpose live

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longer, healthier lives.
And you know, from a business

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perspective, it would be
preposterous to have a life that

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that wasn't going the the
business that didn't have a

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mission and wasn't going in it
in any particular direction.

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So what I want clients anchored
to why are they here in the 1st

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place?
And it better not be just the

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stop.
I want them anchored to what why

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are you doing this?
Why do you want to be better?

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Why do you want to save your
marriage?

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Why do you want to work on
yourself?

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So I want them answering that
why question and building on

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that as we make our way through
the program.

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And that's that's up.
The primary way we help clients

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manage shame is through a thing
called parts work or the

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internal family systems model.
So the internal family systems

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model is a modern neuroscience
supported behavior change

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modality that reflects the
reality that we have inside us.

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These different parts that take
over in response to external

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stimuli.
And these parts aren't conflict.

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These parts take over and hijack
the system and lead us to do

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things that we say we don't want
to do.

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But like learning to lead shame
in love.

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That part is what happens in the
parts work.

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It helps people instead of, you
know, demonizing their shame.

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The parts work gives people an
understanding of where it came

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from.
What?

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Why do they feel like a
worthless piece of shit?

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There's always childhood
programming around that

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conditioning in training, but
but even more importantly than

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where it came from, that's
obviously important.

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That family of origin root
cause.

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You know when you go see a
therapist and they're asking you

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about the past, there's a reason
for that.

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That's the conditioning, that's
the training.

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But more importantly, what the
parts work does is it gives you

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a vehicle to manage shame.
It gives you a container that

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this is the part that I need to
leave.

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I can't get sucked up by the
undertow of I'm a worthless

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piece of crap.
I'm a bad person when that part

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awakens, right?
That's my body's way of telling

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me I need something.
And we teach people to listen

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and lean those parts versus
demonize them, shame them, stuff

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them down and ignore them, which
happens an awful lot.

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What was it about the
traditional 12 step model that

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that wasn't working for you and
perhaps isn't isn't working for

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other people?
Yeah.

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So let me first say that these
are amazing communities, amazing

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fellowships of people at their
lowest point where they can go

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and and be seen and get help
from someone else.

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I want to lead with that
proposition.

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If you are lonely and you are
dealing with this, go to a

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meeting.
OK, now that being said, in the

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treating compulsive sexual
behavior like we treat alcohol

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is highly controversial.
Though most people think sex

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addiction and porn addiction is
the prevailing treatment model,

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it's not.
Sex addiction and porn addiction

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has been rejected by the
American Psychiatric

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Association.
They studied it for five years.

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And we don't think using the
alcohol framework is what's

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going to actually create healthy
sexuality.

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The goal isn't sobriety.
The goal isn't not doing

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something.
The goal is being happy, being

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happy and having a healthy sex
life, whatever that might.

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So add my low point and that was
part of my awakening when I

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learned how controversial it
was.

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I've been in treatment for 20
years.

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I had no idea there was
controversy.

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I had no idea the World Health
Organization studied sex

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addiction and rejected it in
favor of a process disorder.

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I didn't know that the American
Association of Sexuality

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00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,560
Educators, Counselors and
Therapists, the leading group of

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00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:34,600
treatment providers with an
expertise in sexual health, say

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00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,240
the 12 step model actually
causes harm.

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00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,960
What, what?
Wait, 'cause this is what I've

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00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,560
been doing for 20 years.
So there was a part of me that

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was angry at that low point,
Andy, no one told me this, No

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00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,920
one shared with me how could I
be in treatment for 20 years and

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00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,800
not one of the therapists say,
just so you know, this is an

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00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:58,920
experimental model.
It's not supported by forensic

248
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,040
evidence.
It hasn't double-blind placebo

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00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,920
like other treatment protocols
have been studied.

250
00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,160
There was no disclaimer around
that it's not a recognized

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00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,120
mental health disorder and there
are valid reasons for that.

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00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:16,920
And so that was the gap that I
wanted to fill.

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00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,760
So I've heard you talk about
your program as that is it's

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00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,520
habit recovery.
So how does focusing on habits

255
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,520
different from focusing on
addiction?

256
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,440
Well, I think there, I think
there's an overlap, you know,

257
00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,560
not, not, not to mince words,
right.

258
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I don't get caught up, Andy.
And what you call it because

259
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:41,280
clearly it's compulsive and
clearly it's addictive, but the

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solution is not not doing the
thing, right.

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00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,920
That is one of the most
important lessons I want to

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00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,320
teach people.
The solution is not doing the

263
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:53,280
thing.
You must create healthy

264
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:56,520
sexuality.
You have to deal with the

265
00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:01,000
underlying treatment issues.
And at that low point, Andy, you

266
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,040
know, sometimes like an
expression hits you, like, like

267
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:06,800
you heard it before, but it hits
you.

268
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,800
And what hit me at that low
point was in order to break a

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00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:15,240
habit, you have to make a habit.
And I learned that in Charles

270
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,480
Duhigg's book.
And as someone who designed

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00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,160
curriculum for a living when I
was an executive, I was

272
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,800
responsible for training
thousands of people.

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00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,640
And I said to myself, if the
make a habit part of the

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00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,360
equation is most important
because it is the condition that

275
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,000
must be met if you are to break
a habit, to break a habit, you

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00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,880
have to make a habit.
So I decided to build a model

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00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,560
focused on the make a habit.
So making new habits is

278
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,000
everything.
That's identity change, that's

279
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:48,680
process change, outcome change.
It all comes from who you are,

280
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,520
what you do.
How do you create healthy?

281
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,160
How do you counterbalance these
forces that started for us in

282
00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,840
childhood, this escape, this
release, this reward?

283
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,600
And so when I started focusing
on the habits I needed to create

284
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:06,480
versus the habits I needed to
break, things change

285
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,600
significantly for me in my
recovery.

286
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,720
So I know you worked with a lot
of high achievers, executive

287
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,080
celebrities, Olympians.
When someone's in the public

288
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:20,240
eye, what added challenges do
they have and do you have as a

289
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,520
coach to help them?
Yeah, it still be added

290
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,120
challenges.
One of the things that most

291
00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,400
people don't know what it's like
to be a target for women.

292
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,400
I ain't at Target.
I mean, I'm not at Target, at

293
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,120
Target or the supermarket,
right?

294
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,400
No one, no one, no one, no one.
No one's texting me.

295
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,840
No one's studying where I'm on
vacation, what hotel I'm going

296
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:47,200
to be in like these.
Some of them are predators.

297
00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,760
They are absolutely predators.
And these are young men.

298
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,120
My clients tend to be 30.
They're usually towards the

299
00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:55,960
middle or to the end of their
career.

300
00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:03,240
But it is.
It's absolutely insane how great

301
00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,480
they need need to be around
setting boundaries because they

302
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:12,440
are constantly being harassed,
followed hotel rooms,

303
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,440
restaurants.
There are people who know the

304
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,319
schedules of the players, know
what hotels they stay at, know

305
00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:21,880
what restaurants they go go to.
So that is a ridiculously

306
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,040
difficult challenge that most
people don't have.

307
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,760
In addition to being in the
public eye and receiving all

308
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,120
that attention, which, you know,
as guys we love.

309
00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:33,040
They're just like us, Andy.
There's no, you know what I

310
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:34,080
mean?
They, they, they want to be

311
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:35,840
successful.
They want to be happy in their

312
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,360
lives.
They happen to be very good at

313
00:17:38,360 --> 00:17:42,240
this sport or, or this thing and
they, you know, busted up just

314
00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:44,960
like the rest of us.
All that attention, all that

315
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,000
significance.
When they're off stage, they're

316
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:50,840
empty or they're off the, the
floor, you know, there's this

317
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,280
empty feeling.
They're stuck in the hotel room

318
00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,160
for hours and hours and hours.
And what happens?

319
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:57,840
What it, what it, what do men
do?

320
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,840
You know, they find themselves
on social media and before you

321
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,360
know it, someone's inviting
themselves over to the room.

322
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:06,680
And you know, there's just a lot
of that that goes on.

323
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,800
So there's a lot of pressure for
these guys, pressure that most

324
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,560
people don't have, you know,
plus the pressure of the public

325
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,320
shaming that happens when it,
when it goes public.

326
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:19,200
Most of my client, I've had a
few cases that have bled over

327
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,840
into the public Andy and I'm
always behind the scenes

328
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,000
reputation management working
with their publicist and, and

329
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,080
they're really helping that.
My job is to help them.

330
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,400
But yeah, it is not that anyone
is going to have pity for these

331
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,880
guys, but it is harder for them.
They're trying hard, they want

332
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,160
to be better.
Pressure is enormous and I'm

333
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:41,920
just blessed that I don't have
those pressures.

334
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:48,160
In this day and age, with porn
literally everywhere and

335
00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,240
available at the fingertips on
every device that everyone's

336
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,720
always carrying with them, how
has that changed the landscape

337
00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:00,880
for compulsive sexual activity?
It has accelerated it, it has

338
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:06,440
compounded it, it has magnified
it, and it is a growing

339
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:12,160
loneliness game epidemic in all
people.

340
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,760
And now my clients are men and
we're going to talk about men.

341
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,760
Andy, I thank God that I did not
have AI girlfriends when I was

342
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,400
acting out.
I thank God that all this sugar

343
00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,040
baby stuff wasn't as prolific.
Like all these things that are

344
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,920
so commonplace now is mind
blowing to me.

345
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,880
Like, and it's only been what,
15 years since I stopped doing

346
00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,920
what I was doing.
And the change has been

347
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,720
tremendous.
It's available on every device

348
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,800
now.
It's interactive, and that's

349
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,200
creating a whole host of
challenges.

350
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:53,840
The AI girlfriend market is
currently valued at 3.2 billion,

351
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,240
and if memory serves me
correctly, they expect it to

352
00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:01,040
rise to $28 billion per year
that men are going to spend on

353
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:06,640
their AI girlfriends by 2028.
Wow, man, I knew it was there,

354
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,000
but I didn't know.
I didn't know it was already

355
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,160
that big of a thing.
Yeah, and it's growing.

356
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:11,520
Have you seen any of the ads
yet?

357
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,160
Have come across your Facebook
yet?

358
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,600
Right, man, come on.
I feel bad for these guys.

359
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,200
Yeah.
I just, yeah, I'm like you when

360
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,080
I was growing up, like it was a
stash of porn in the woods was

361
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,640
the big thrill of childhood.
And that's what happened.

362
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,280
That was just, yeah, it's
everywhere.

363
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:28,840
So it becomes meaningless.
It becomes.

364
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:30,600
There's no such thing as a
rarity to it.

365
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,600
I've heard you say.
The, the, what I want, what I

366
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,560
want to say, Andy though the,
the, the impact has been dire,

367
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:40,160
it is great, it is getting
worse.

368
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,320
Experts believe that high rates
of porn consumption have

369
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:50,360
impacted Japan's birth rate.
The level of divorce continues

370
00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:56,880
to rise. 30 to 40% of women ages
18 to 40 report being slapped,

371
00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:02,240
choked or spit on during
intercourse without consent by

372
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,200
their partners.
So it, it's not like, oh, is it

373
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,320
going to bleed over?
It isn't just bleeding over, it

374
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:13,240
is feeling over and it's making
a stinking mess because we are

375
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,080
not wired for this type of
technology.

376
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,360
Our brains and bodies and hearts
aren't wired to see all this

377
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:24,520
pornography.
I I the impact is is deep and

378
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,240
profound and is destroying
families.

379
00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,560
Yeah, so.
So Craig, if you had the global

380
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,160
sweeping power to make a change
in regards to to porn or

381
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:40,200
technology, what would you do?
I would make it so kids can't

382
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,640
see it right?
Like I would do what, you know,

383
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:47,240
Australia, well, Australia has
banned social media for kids

384
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,520
under 16.
When there's a problem in

385
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,720
Australia, they, they seem to
respond very quickly with

386
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,040
legislation to fix it.
That ain't happening here, Andy.

387
00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,240
It's just, it's just not like
everyone knows kids are getting

388
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:04,480
exposed at a policy level.
I know there are passionate

389
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,280
advocates who care, but in terms
of industry, they don't care.

390
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,880
This the quicker you get them,
the more you get a customer for

391
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:13,480
life.
And I have no doubt that these

392
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,240
conversations are being had when
we put a man on the moon, we can

393
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,400
protect children from
pornography.

394
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,120
We, we could have done it.
We refuse to do it.

395
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,440
And now that's where we are.
But if I could wave a magic

396
00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,840
wand, Evidence based sexual
education training for parents.

397
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,840
Because if you're not talking to
your kid about pleasure, joy,

398
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:39,160
consent, values, morals,
pleasure, which is a really hard

399
00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:41,440
thing for parents to talk about
with their kids, but if you're

400
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,000
not doing it, they're learning
from porn and they are learning

401
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,320
lessons that'll impact them for
the rest of their lives

402
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,560
negatively.
So I've heard you often say that

403
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,880
compulsive behaviors are
symptoms of deeper needs.

404
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,680
So what are some of those deeper
needs that men are not

405
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,360
addressing?
Well, they're not taking care of

406
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:01,440
themselves.
They're not.

407
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,240
They're not practicing
self-care.

408
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,320
They're not able to regulate
distress.

409
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,200
So porn, when it becomes
prolific, is a coping strategy.

410
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,600
Men are using it to numb, cope
and escape.

411
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:21,240
It is a release, it is a reward,
and it works.

412
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,000
Andy, you know the stress that
everyone's under now.

413
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,840
But look, we're talking about
men, so we're going to talk

414
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:32,840
about men.
They are under insane amounts of

415
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,320
stress.
They identify as providers.

416
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,760
Yet more and more men are unable
to fulfill that role because of

417
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,040
economic conditions and what's
happening in this country.

418
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,160
So they're losing that identity
as a provider.

419
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:53,240
And where do you where, you
know, where have we had this met

420
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,880
boy, you know, numb, cope and
escape and find that that

421
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,560
solace, that freedom, that
secret, you know, we had the

422
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,200
magazines to go into the woods.
The kids now just have this

423
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,000
phone and it is a very effective
coping strategy.

424
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,480
So they have to learn to
regulate their emotions.

425
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,480
They have to learn to regulate
fear.

426
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,560
What do I do when I get
stressed, when I get anxious?

427
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,000
How do I practice mindfulness?
How do I anchor into my purpose?

428
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,360
How do I remind myself of who I
want to be so I don't have to

429
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:30,600
keep slipping down that rabbit
hole?

430
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,680
So yeah, there are a lot of
needs that need to be met

431
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,160
proactively when clients come to
me because they're all being met

432
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,720
reactively.
For the partners of men that are

433
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,640
struggling with with any form of
sexual compulsion, what would

434
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,240
you like them to know?
Oh God, this is such a tough

435
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,880
question.
One I want them to know.

436
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,600
It's not your fault, number one,
it's not your fault.

437
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,120
These are behaviors that began
in childhood.

438
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,520
If you asked him how many times
he numbed, coped, and escaped

439
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,720
using pornography, the guy in
his 40s could conceivably be in

440
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:13,440
the thousands, thousands and
thousands of time #2 while there

441
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,240
is debate on what to call it, he
really can't help.

442
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,280
He really does not have the
capacity to make good decisions

443
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,560
over extended periods of times
when it comes to sexual health

444
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,880
choices when he's been doing
what he's been doing for as long

445
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,760
as he's been doing it.
Don't blame yourself for that.

446
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,840
This is a very difficult problem
to solve.

447
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,160
It started in childhood.
It's happened thousands of

448
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,840
times.
And it's not just doing it,

449
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,440
Andy.
It's not just doing it.

450
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:44,160
It's the lying about it with.
In other words, don't.

451
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:47,480
So the the men formerly known as
boys.

452
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,040
It's not like we just did it,
but we didn't do it on the front

453
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:52,680
lawn.
Like we ride our bikes and pull

454
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,720
a wheelie and go over a jump.
This was something we did in

455
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,400
secret.
We learned we have to keep it

456
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,720
secret this weekend.
Yeah.

457
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,360
In trouble, we'll be
embarrassed.

458
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:05,520
We'll be shamed.
So it's not just the behavior,

459
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,440
the lack of the integrity issue
here is often times far more

460
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,880
significantly impactful than the
actual behavior.

461
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,520
We've got to address that
integrity issue because without

462
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,440
it, you're screwed.
You know, you're, you're just,

463
00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,960
you're just going to be
repeating those same patterns

464
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,720
over and over again.
And does does the lying, the

465
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:32,040
covering up, the sneaking
around, can that be as addictive

466
00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:34,360
and rewarding as the as whatever
the ACT is?

467
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:37,760
Yes, yes.
So one of the exercises that we

468
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,880
have in the program, Andy, is
it's right in the beginning,

469
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,040
instead of asking clients to
tell me all of the bad parts

470
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:50,120
about their compulsive sexual
behavior, I flip the script and

471
00:26:50,120 --> 00:26:55,000
I say I want you to tell me all
of the good parts, all of the

472
00:26:55,200 --> 00:27:00,120
positive attributes.
Helps me escape, helps me

473
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,680
nothing, helps me deal with
anxiety.

474
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,360
It's a release, it's a reward.
It's a reward.

475
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:12,480
It's it and it and it's the the
secret, Andy, the autonomy, the

476
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,360
freedom.
One of the means that clients

477
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,840
connect with is Gollum from Lord
of the Rings, my precious,

478
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,600
because it is their precious.
It's their secret.

479
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,600
It's where they go when they've
got nothing else.

480
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,600
Well, they don't know how to
deal with whatever they're

481
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,160
dealing with ever strong
emotions that they're

482
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,800
experiencing.
This is my go to.

483
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,240
It's a security blanket.
And one of the crazy statements

484
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,280
I'll say in here, not everyone
is going to get it, but but when

485
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:48,000
clients do, it's like, oh crap,
porn is safe for them.

486
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,240
It is a safe place for them to
watch what they want, do what

487
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,200
they want, fantasize what they
want, go wherever they got to go

488
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,720
until the release, and then the
shame comes and then the cycle

489
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:05,360
repeats itself again.
But in a very, very, very

490
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:08,240
effective and impactful coping
strategy.

491
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,480
It worked too well, which is why
we have the problem that we

492
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,680
have.
So you stressed that we all need

493
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,880
a healthy sexual expression and
and you know, treatment is not

494
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,960
I'll never have sex again when
it comes to porn that does there

495
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,560
need to be a healthy
relationship with porn or do

496
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,640
some people just need never do
that again?

497
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,040
Some people need to never do it
again.

498
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:34,080
They don't have the ability nor
do they want to create the

499
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,000
ability to to manage it.
It's like there's no healthy

500
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,360
place.
Well, let me start with, are

501
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:48,080
there couples who use erotica to
spice and who's up their love

502
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,920
life?
We're not talking about that.

503
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,000
We're not talking about fun
things that couples are doing

504
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,560
with each other.
We're talking about the guy in

505
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,640
the bathroom, 2 in the morning,
hoping everybody's asleep in the

506
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,240
basement.
Assuming the position, the

507
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,840
hunch, the hunch position, like
the evolution of man at the end

508
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,440
is going to be this position
right here, the hunch position

509
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,800
with the with the glow in the
face, right?

510
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,560
That's what we're talking about,
right?

511
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,520
And so while some people are
able to create a healthy

512
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:25,200
relationship with adult content,
most of my clients have gotten

513
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,080
to a place where they say, you
know what?

514
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,920
I find that my life is
significantly better not

515
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,480
watching other people have sex.
And so it isn't, while there may

516
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:41,160
be moral issues that drive that
choice, when I find Andy, it's

517
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,080
only the moral issue that's
fueling the choice.

518
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,920
Those guys tend to fail.
But for men who come to the

519
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,960
conclusion that, yes, I have
moral objections to this, I

520
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,840
might have religious objections,
spiritual objections, and

521
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,440
embracing the reality that this
is actually self harm.

522
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,800
I'm corrupting my arousal
template.

523
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,920
I'm watching things that I ain't
going to do in real life.

524
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,640
It's not connecting me more with
my partner.

525
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,840
In fact, it's making me feel
worse because I feel shame

526
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,960
around when I'm watching.
That's typical.

527
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,720
If someone is listening right
now and feels trapped in their

528
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,960
compulsive behaviors, is there a
first step you would recommend

529
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,120
that they take?
Today, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,

530
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,040
yes.
Well, listen, reach, reach out

531
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,960
for help.
It doesn't have to be me.

532
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,920
It doesn't have reach out to
Andy guys like do something, go

533
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,640
to a meeting, do something and
and what I want to say to you is

534
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:47,440
is welcome to a powerful
awakening because one this is

535
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,680
the ridiculously difficult habit
to break.

536
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,320
If anyone tells you otherwise,
please run in the other

537
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,840
direction.
OK, that that's just

538
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,680
disingenuous and untrue.
The good news is though, the

539
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,600
skills that it takes
self-control, emotional

540
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,320
intelligence, integrity,
purpose, connection, love,

541
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,840
grace, forgiveness, that's a
great life, right?

542
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,440
The cure is the aggressive
pursuit of a great life.

543
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:19,360
So tell somebody, get help,
start practicing self-care to

544
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,520
the best of your ability.
And if you need professional

545
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,760
help, reach out to someone and
get it.

546
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:31,200
Because the, the, the reality is
that the here's my cliche, Andy,

547
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,680
one of my first YouTube videos,
click bait title.

548
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,320
And you know, you know, I've
always tried to be ethical and

549
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,160
honest in my advertising.
I got one YouTube video and it's

550
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,280
the cure for sex and porn
addiction day.

551
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,640
I haven't changed it because it
is still my truth 13 years

552
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,080
later.
The cure is the aggressive

553
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,880
pursuit of a great life.
Anything short of that will

554
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,920
fail.
It's too difficult a power, a

555
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:58,680
problem to break without you
feeling good about yourself,

556
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,160
having community, doing all the
things that you talk about on

557
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,320
your podcast.
Honey, that's the the good news,

558
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,120
bad news.
Bad news is it's difficult, but

559
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,360
life is difficult.
So you got to pick one.

560
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,160
I'm going to pick great.
Life's difficult.

561
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,640
So yeah, it's hard.
The other side of this and the

562
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,120
skills that it takes to control
yourself sexually will change

563
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,200
every aspect of your life.
It'll anchor you to your

564
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,440
purpose.
You'll have better friendships,

565
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,080
you'll have better
relationships.

566
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,880
Sexual health is mental health,
physical health and spiritual

567
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,840
health.
And it took us a long time as

568
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,320
decided to figure that out.
But we're trying to, we're

569
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,360
starting to get it because the
consequences are so grave.

570
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,880
On the addiction side, Andy,
like this is ministers, pastors,

571
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,960
leaders.
We're not wired for this man.

572
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,160
And it's really, really ruining
people's lives.

573
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,160
Yeah, well, I I love that line.
It doesn't strike me as cliche

574
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,200
at all.
Besides the aggressive pursuit

575
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,080
of a great life, what else would
you like men to know?

576
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,200
I like men to know by
prioritizing sexual health, you

577
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,480
prioritize physical health,
mental health, and spiritual

578
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:11,640
health.
Like I said earlier, sexual

579
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,600
health touches all three, and we
live in a society where our

580
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,840
sexuality has been cheapened.
It has been demeaning that it

581
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:26,360
it's useless to sell off things.
And the sooner that men wake up

582
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:32,080
to how our sexual energy is
being exploited, turning us into

583
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,600
weak men, the sooner that
they're going to awaken and

584
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:42,760
realize that this isn't normal.
We are not wired to be have AI

585
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,440
girlfriends and to to to for
only fans.

586
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,240
Like it's not healthy for most
people.

587
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,960
It's really, really, really
joining people's lives in ways

588
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,240
that you and I couldn't even
imagine as a kid.

589
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,240
But I want everyone to know that
your sexual energy is powerful,

590
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:09,719
and with great power comes great
responsibility, and you have to

591
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,280
treat your sexual energy with
that same level of respect as

592
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:19,320
referenced by Voltaire and
Spider Man with great power.

593
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:21,840
Yeah, those the advice of those
two.

594
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,239
That's a win, win.
So Craig, where can people go to

595
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,880
learn more about the Mindful
Habits system and connect with

596
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,400
you?
Sure, people can visit the

597
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,840
website mindfulhabithelp.com.
You can call the number to

598
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,920
schedule an appointment to talk
to me.

599
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,000
You can look at the different
programs and you can check out

600
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,000
my podcast which is Sex
Afflictions and Porn addictions.

601
00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:46,199
If you just type in sex
addiction, usually it comes

602
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:48,000
right up so.
Awesome.

603
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,040
So, Craig, thanks for thanks for
saving your own life, and now

604
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,320
thanks for all the work that
you're doing to help other

605
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,639
people save their lives too.
Well, thanks for having me,

606
00:34:56,639 --> 00:34:58,320
Andy.
I love chatting with you.

607
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,360
I think you're great.
And everyone check, keep, keep,

608
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,960
keep watching and check out
Andy's programs.

609
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,000
Man, this is a great guy here.
And I'm really privileged to be

610
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,560
on your podcast.
Andy, Thank you.

611
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,040
Craig, thank you so much for
your honesty, your courage, and

612
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,480
the powerful reminder that we
are not defined by our worst

613
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,520
habits.
If you want to learn more about

614
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,400
Craig, check out the Mindful
Habit System by visiting Mindful

615
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,200
Habit help.com.
And if you're ready to take your

616
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,520
own breath further, join me in a
community of like minded men who

617
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,560
are dedicated to living
authentically inside the

618
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,800
Authentic AF community.
It's free, it's supportive, it's

619
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,440
where men can feel real about
everything.

620
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,400
You can join us at
realmenfeel.org/group and until

621
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,560
next time, be good to yourself.