The Invisible Scorecard—What Men Measure and Who They Become

0:00 Hello and welcome to Real Men Feel. I'm your host, Andy Grant, and today's a big one. This is episode 400 as we continue to celebrate the 10th anniversary of Real Men Feel. All this year, my guests really helped me reflect on what numbers mean and all the things we measure in life and why do we measure them and how we measure age and money, success, followers, years in a relationship, how far you think you've come, how far behind you might fear that you are. But what are we really measuring? And for men especially, we have this invisible scorecard running in the background all the time. Am I successful enough, strong enough, far enough along?

0:40 A good enough provider, a good enough father, a good enough partner? All these internal measurements that can shape our confidence, our Peace of Mind, our relationships, often without us even realizing it? So for this milestone episode, I invited, but she she volunteered, she insisted. It's a mix of return to the show. Today is Vanessa Cardenas on her two prior appearances. We talked about betrayal, healing and relationship repair. Today we're widening the lens to talk about time, growth, identity comparison and all the actual changes that happen when someone chooses growth over ego. So this is not a conversation about 400 episodes. It's a conversation about who a man can become over time.

1:23 Let's do it. And welcome back to REAL MEN Feel Vanessa. Yes. Oh, I'm so excited. As I told you when we first started, I'm so ridiculously proud of you. I absolutely am. Oh my goodness. And you invited me on to your podcast. And did you know at the time that it was my second podcast? I did. I actually thought, yeah, I knew it was. I knew it was very early for you in that realm. Now you've been on. Do you know how many you've been on? I I have been on over 100. Yeah, I see you everywhere. Yes. Well, thank you for that and and thank you for the opportunity. You were so gracious to me and we had an amazing conversation. We absolutely did.

2:06 We hit the ground running and that was it. And so much so you invited me back and we did episode 3 O one and three O 3. You gave me the platform, you gave me the runway to share what I do, and I'm so grateful for that. I'm so grateful for you. And now we're here today with a milestone episode of 400. Now it's not only that 400 let 400 land. It's also 10 years, 10 years of your commitment to men.

2:47 And it's not just men, because men interact with women and they interact with their kids and they interact with their parents and their family and their community. So the work that you do in this particular real men feel, it just ripples out constantly. It's like that koi pond that you have in the winter and you have to make sure that you always have the ripple's going on so it doesn't freeze. That's you, that's you. You're the constant ripple to make sure that men feel that they're allowed to feel.

3:29 And I'm, I'm so honored that you chose me for #400 We are going to have such an amazing conversation. I don't know how long ago, but you're like, can I have you on for episode 400? I was like, sure, you know, but and, and and more than just celebrating, you know, episodes of the show, you suggested exploring numbers and, and what do we measure and why do we measure things? I thought that was really intriguing. Yes, absolutely, because we we do measure things. We are constantly and subconsciously always measuring and we measure things, numbers, milestones, dates. We always have numbers in our mind. For me, in the work that I'm doing, and I'm a relationship reset expert, I work with couples and individuals to reset their relationship, whether it's an intimate partner relationship, family relationships, work relationships, any type of relationships and we all have them. There are times when they're a little contentious and we need a little help.

4:34 We need a recalibration. We need to set it up to 11 perhaps or or tone it down to maybe a 2 and allow ourselves to have the clarity that's needed to actually really see what's going on. So most men walk around measuring themselves internally every single day. They have an internal scorecard that they are keeping, whether consciously or unconsciously. And it's nobody's talking about it. And it's doing such a disservice. I hear it here in my office where men come in and they say, well, I should be doing this, and I have to do that and this and that.

5:17 And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And my question is really simple. Who said that? Who said that to you? Why? Why do you have to do XY and Z? And they pause and they think about it and, and it takes them a while to backtrack where this came from, where this measurement of deciding if they are good enough, if they are behind or ahead and if they're winning or they're feeling. And this, this goes on all day long. Subconsciously, they don't even realize it.

5:59 And it's so detrimental to us. And just as a society, I get it. We, we keep score on everything. My favorite sport, soccer. Why? Because there can be a tie. There doesn't have to be a winner or a loser. It could end in a tie. And when I first heard that, I thought it's so strange. What do you mean now? I love it. I love that idea of just go have fun, have lots of fun, and don't worry about the score. Yes, you still have to worry about time, and we measure things in time as well. You know it when you're trying to sleep and you've woken up in the middle of the night and you look at the clock. What are you doing?

6:48 First, you're calculating how much time you have left before you have to wake up. Oh, it's 3:00 in the morning. The clock's going to go off at six. I have three more hours to sleep. And then you desperately try to fall back to sleep. Then you look at the clock again. Now it's an hour later. Oh, I still have two hours left. We're constantly doing this thing with numbers and comparison and I really struggle with that for my clients because I see the straitjacket that they put themselves into by measuring and sometimes measuring is a good thing.

7:29 I will say that sometimes we need to measure certain things to see how far we've actually come, the distance that we have travelled from way back there to where we are now. That's a good measurement. So sometimes measurements can be destructive and sometimes they can actually be really helpful if they're used in the right way. And that's what we want to do. We want to use them in the right way. What do you think men are actually measuring when they are obsessed over income and status and milestones? Exactly that they are thinking of all the different things for which they are responsible for, and it becomes an oversaturation of responsibility to the point where it's overwhelmed and it's paralysis, like they don't even know what to do next. And comparison, Theodore Roosevelt said it. Comparison is the thief of joy.

8:33 Absolutely is 'cause we compare ourselves to somebody else. And now that we have social media where you can see everybody's perfect life, oh, I'll let you in on a little secret. Nobody's life is perfect. It's not. It is not perfect. But I can tell you this, you are beautifully unique just as you are. You are as unique as your fingerprint and you have amazing qualities within you if you get rid of all of these comparisons and thinking of someone else.

9:16 Men struggle because they think that they're incapable. They're struggling because no one has ever taught them to sit in those feelings that they have rather than trying to escape them. So they've been running, running from all of these feelings and all this feeling of comparing themselves to something else, to an ideal that is not realistic. It is not. It is like winning the lottery for some sort of situation that we find ourselves in that we don't need to do that to ourselves. Because I'll let you in on another secret.

9:58 Nobody else is comparing to you. They're not. So many people are so wrapped up in themselves. They're really not thinking of you. They're not keeping score related to you, but you're keeping score related to them and they're keeping score related to somebody else. And everybody's keeping score related to somebody else. There's no reciprocal keeping. It's just churning and churning and churning and churning to the point where everybody's exhausted. Everybody is exhausted from trying to keep up. The expression was, you know, keep up with the Joneses and the grass is always greener on the other side.

10:39 Well, no, not necessarily. Not at all. What makes you think it's greener over there? Oh, well, because on social media I see this or I see that that's all filtered. There's a term for it now. It's called catfishing and oh boy, that one drives me crazy. It does. You and I have experienced that as well, where we, we think we're going to meet someone. You know it when you're interviewing for your podcast, they send you their media kit and then they get on screen and you're like, whoa, hold on a second. Like the person that I saw through their media kit was like 20 years younger and here you are on screen.

11:22 You're beautiful just as you are, but I don't understand why you felt compelled to present yourself not as you are. And now for me, me, because I work in a trust environment, when I experienced that, where someone presents themselves a certain way and then they come on screen or I meet them in person and they're different, I suddenly find myself mistrusting them because they didn't trust themselves enough to present themselves as they are, authentically, just as they are, because that's secret. You're uniquely beautiful just as you are. Just show up as you don't compare yourself to someone else because in reality there is no comparison. Done a number of shows recently on the Success trap and hollow Man syndrome and all about, you know, chasing all the trappings of success and checking the boxes and getting the measurements and the milestones.

12:29 And it seems to me most men are doing that to kind of prove their worth, to prove that then they and they might necessarily be comparing themselves to other people. They're comparing themselves to this, this mythic American man. So when you ask guys, where did you learn that from? Do they have an answer? A lot of times they really struggle with it. Older brother, older cousins, a very militant father or a father figure in their life that's very militant. You have to be this way. This is the way for you to be a man. And you see how they are. You see what they did.

13:11 That's what you need to do. And suddenly at an early age, you're programmed to watch everything else around you so that you can emulate that. You can be just like that. I mean, the whole campaign in the 80s and 90s was, you know, be like, Mike, wait a second. No, like I want to be me and we don't encourage that individuality. At least then now we're getting a little bit better where you are, who you are. And that's a good thing. That's absolutely a good thing because we don't want to be cookie cutters. We don't want to be just like someone else. We want to be ourselves and we want to be comfortable with ourselves and we want to be accepted for who we are, who we love and how we are without a doubt. And finding your people and, and you hear it a lot. Find your tribe, find your people, yes, find your people. Surround yourself with people that lift you up for who you are.

14:20 Not the comparison and not the filtered version of you, but who you are so that you can enjoy that feeling. And, and we've lost that feeling. We, we almost don't recognize the feeling when we have it. You've had it a couple of times. I've seen it 'cause you've posted it online. That pure joy, that pure unfiltered joy. And where I have seen it on your face is when you're front row at Metallica, at your Metallica concerts. You did that whole series where you were following them. You were, you were #1 fan without a doubt. But the pure bliss that you had contagious actually, because you were in that moment.

15:13 And that's what everyone needs to remember. You are in this moment. Yes, there's a past, and sometimes that past is ridiculously painful. Ridiculously painful. But you're not living there. You're living right here, right now. So allow yourself those moments of bliss, those moments of Zen, those moments of happiness, because you deserve it. You absolutely deserve it. Don't let anyone else tell you otherwise and absolutely don't compare it. Well, I didn't get that big promotion, so I should live in the shame of not receiving that. Who says, Who says?

16:02 And sometimes you need to stop yourself and have somebody else stop you and say, hold on a second, like, who said that to you? Let's, let's be realistic. Some of us, guilty as charged, have a wicked inner critic. Wicked inner critic that started usually in childhood. Sometimes you have to tap that down because you, you yourself can be the one putting yourself down. So find your people. And you've created a group. Yes. You have a group. Yeah. Yes, yes, absolutely.

16:43 It it's a safe space for men to just drop the mask, drop the axe, stop comparing and just be open and share and realize that other men aren't out to get them or judge them. I've had so many guys in this group share things for the first time and there's just other guys on Zoom listening, nodding and like, wow, they, you know, they really thought it was going to be the end of them to, to share something or to ask help for something. And it just isn't. But, you know, so we talked about, you know, comparison and my belief that it's kind of men measuring, trying to prove their worthiness via accomplishment, being performative. How does comparison erode intimacy in in your relationship work? Do you see that as an issue?

17:25 Absolutely. Because comparison pulls pulls a man out of his life and it puts him on to someone else's timeline, without a doubt. I'm going to say it one more time because it's really important. I say it to my clients and they sit there and they think about it and then they nod. They realize that yes, that's exactly what's happening. Comparison pulls a man out of his life and puts him on to someone else's timeline with intimacy. Comparison is deadly.

18:05 It just is. When a man gets up in here, he certainly cannot perform. He just, he's so wrapped up in comparing himself to previous partners that his intimate partner has had. And it destroys, it destroys relationships. Because when we have holes in stories, we fill those holes. So if we have not had the difficult conversations with our wife, husband, partner of sexual experience, we fill in those holes.

18:47 We suddenly think that it's like the movies. It's just been this grandiose thing and and and and she has orgasmed 4 times with someone else and I can barely get her out orgasm and now she doesn't make a sound with me. She probably took off with everybody else and whatnot and we fell in those holes and suddenly once again we're comparing without any context. And that destroys so many relationships unnecessarily because we all have experiences. Some might be better than others, but your partner's with you now. You were chosen.

19:32 Honor that, savor that. Enjoy that. Stop letting others live rent free up here. No, absolutely not. You're here, right here and right now. Be present and also don't project out into the future. Oh, well, you know, she's going to be unhappy with me and I'm, you know, she's going to leave me and go with someone else. And all these scenarios and 99% of the, of the problems or situations or scenarios we think are going to happen, they don't, They absolutely don't. And we stress ourselves out unnecessarily.

20:16 Live in this moment, enjoy this moment. And when you have those challenges? When they start to creep in because what's missing in your relationship is clarity. If you don't have clarity, everything starts to creep in. And when that when those cracks start to form in your relationship, that's when something or someone can enter into it. And if you've had a long term relationship over 10 years, number one thing I hear in my foundation session, which is my very first session, is he should know what I'm thinking.

20:58 He knows he knows what I like or what I don't like or whatever it is. No, no. Just because you've known each other for so long doesn't allow you the opportunity to not talk anymore because you think that your partner knows what you're thinking or that you know what your partner is thinking. Oh, no, no, no, no. It doesn't work that way. We have got to communicate so that we can have that clarity because clarity equals confidence and confidence definitely equals intimacy. It just does. We all know that. You know when somebody walks into the room and they have confidence, Not to be confused with arrogance, but confidence.

21:46 They're sure of themselves and you can be sure of yourself. Take all the comparison and take all the measurements out. Stop, stop. Focus on you. Better yet, focus on your partner. Ah, because they definitely want your attention, so give it to them. So certainty that someone should know me is not the clarity. No, not at all. It's the language. It's it's what you say. It's what comes out of your mouth. And not only what comes out of your mouth, but actually the words that you use, what you say. So I'm going to give you an example. I had a client come in with her husband. She couldn't wait, couldn't I mean, they just sat down.

22:28 She couldn't wait to tell me. And she says, I, we sat down on the couch last night and and you told me, you know, to speak up when I felt something speak up. Yes, that is true. When you feel something, speak up. She goes, I did. I did exactly what you told me to do. She was so proud of herself. And I said, OK, what did you say? And she goes, yeah, I turned to him and go, why don't you hold me anymore? And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's slow this down a little bit. You said what? She goes, why don't you hold me anymore? And I, I said to her without even looking at her husband. I said, and he didn't say a word. He clammed up. He got a little closer to the edge of the couch. She goes exactly.

23:11 And he, of course, is nodding. And I said, because you made him defensive. I said you could have asked the same question a different way with six words. You could have leaned into him and when he puts his arm around you because of listen, not for nothing, any woman that leans into a man, he usually then puts his arm around he he snuggles in because he feels that that's an opening. You lean into him and when he puts his arm around you or puts his hand on your leg or whatever contacted is you say I like this, I miss this 6 words. That's it.

23:58 I miss this, that he's going to hear you. He's going to hear that you miss this. Rather than making him defensive with how come you never hold me anymore? The same want the same, wanting to understand the same clarity in that, but it's different language and sometimes we have to use different language. We have to think before we actually speak and say something to understand how it's going to be received. Yeah. Because men want to protect and provide. So yeah, if you, if you saw, if you let your men feel like he's protecting and saving you openly ask and say you missed something great.

24:39 But yeah, if you if you come aggressive, then they're going to try to protect themselves. Absolutely, absolutely. And once men, men or women get into this role of protecting themselves, really hard to get them out. It's really hard to get them out of that. So let's not put them in there to start with. Let's think about what we want to say. And I know that sometimes we have so much anger and so much rage and we don't understand what's going on in our relationship. It feels different. The relationship feels different. We can't quite put our finger on what it is, but things have slowed down. The intimacy is not as frequent that the the bickering seems to have been escalating a little bit. We just can't quite figure it out. That's where I come in.

25:32 That's where I like to come in. And I'm an alternative to marriage therapy because I will say this, most of my clients, couples, she has found me. She's found me online. I have a very large digital footprint, especially in my local community, Westchester County, New York. And she will find me and she will encourage drag her, her spouse with her. And we do a 90 minute session to start with. And I hit the ground running. I, I'm from New York and there there's no, there's no like, you know, let's ease into this. Oh, no, no, no, we go right into it. And more times than not, the men at the end of 90 minutes or if we wind up going overtime, which I will tell you most likely happens more often than not, I've gone over time by at least two hours.

26:30 So we can have a three and a half hour session. Yes, 3 1/2 hour session. Because stuff is happening, stuff is stirring, stuff is happening and we want to continue to get that out. I am not a up, time's up. We'll pick this up in two weeks type of person. Not at all. So I'm an alternative to marriage therapy. And the men will get up and wow, this was, I've never had a therapy session like this. And I have to correct them. And I'm like, well, you haven't had a therapy session. This is a coaching session. Very different than therapy because we work on here and now here and now What is going on here and now you want to keep bringing up the past. You can for a little bit, just a little. I'll give you a little bit of a runway. But other than that, no, we're, we're, we're not back there. We're here and now.

27:20 And that's when I start to hear men open up and talk about comparison. They talk about this scorecard that they have where they have to keep up and they feel that their spouse doesn't acknowledge them, doesn't appreciate them. And it's very interesting the dynamic that happens between the two. I'll let you in on how I usually start my sessions. Tell me two things that you absolutely love and adore your partner and one thing about yourself that you'd like to work on working with me and each partner says we usually go two or three rounds.

28:08 I usually like to do two or three rounds, especially if they have answers like right off the cuff, like they, they know their answers. Most of the time one of them is starting to cry. Why is that? Because they're hearing something from their spouse that their spouse loves or adores about them that they have not heard in years. And the partner will look at their partner who's in tears and, you know, and what's going on. Why? Why are you crying? I haven't heard you say that. Well, you know that, you know that I think you're beautiful. And it's like, yeah, maybe, but you haven't said it in like 8 years. So yeah, I know it, but I want to hear it. I want to feel it.

29:02 I want to know it. Same thing on the men's side, that they hear something from their wife that they turn and look like so shocked, like really like you even noticed that one said that her husband had a wicked sense of humor and he looked at her like she was from Mars, like he could not believe that she said that. She even recognized that. And that's what missing in a lot of relationships is the recognition is the acknowledgement is the appreciation for the other person. Because we get so wrapped up in ourselves and our own scorecard where we're comparing ourselves to other people and we're not paying attention to the most important, the two most important relationships that we have in our lives.

29:58 One is with our intimate partner. The second is with ourselves. Ourselves absolutely has to be the top priority. I know for a lot of my couples, they're like, whoa, hold on a second. I want us to be the priority. No, now, second, because you cannot have a cohesive relationship, a good solid relationship, if you are not comfortable with your own self. So how do you get comfortable with your own self? Stop the comparisons. You're right out of the gate. You lose the scorecard, you slim it down. You keep slimming it down. You know, it doesn't have to be 20 different things that you're keeping track of.

30:42 Cut it down in half, then cut it down in half again. Bring it down to the final three. Bring it down to the final one. Because if you do need something, something to help you feel good about yourself, I'm not going to strip that from you. Of course not. But you don't have to have 20 different things to make you feel good about yourself. It almost seems like relationships are missing a scorecard, like they're they're more obvious in, you know, your job has promotions and performance reviews. They're always getting evaluated. And for a relationship, it's like get married, have kids, stay married. Like there's there's less things to celebrate and accomplish together.

31:30 But you you choose that in your relationship, you decide what are your milestones see milestones and scorecard completely different. I'm I'm going to say that they are different. You can have great milestones absolutely have great milestones. You have them episode 410 years. Those are milestones. We we celebrate those. Yes, celebrate those. However, with the laundry list, the tit for tat. I took out the garbage this week. You have to take it out next week. Did you feed the dog? Did you do this? Did you do that? Da, da, da. Check mark, check mark. Check mark, check mark and whatnot. And keeping score that way. That's destructive. Gotcha.

32:12 Yeah, that's destructive. Yeah, so getting back to the the the 400 talk. When? We talk you, you first. You shared that that 400 seconds was nothing but 400 days. You can, you can truly change your life. So The thing is, so is do you think is there anything someone can't transform in 400 days? No. I couldn't think of it either. Yeah. No, you can, absolutely. You can absolutely be completely different 400 days later, absolutely. Because when you set your mind to something, a goal that you have for yourself, you can do anything. That's why people train.

32:56 That's why athletes train. That's why you go to university. You're, you're studying, you're training for it. But you know, I share this with my children early on because I, I saw the impact that grades were having on my children and, and the stress that they found themselves in. And I would tell them, you know what your future employer, they might be concerned with your GPA at the bottom of a resume, but most aren't. They really aren't. They just want to know that you have the capability to think on your feet because that's what school is doing for you. It's teaching you how to think. And critical thinking is really important, especially in AI. And we can talk about that completely separately, but it's nobody's going to ask you for your report card. You do well, but stressing out over it, it's not healthy. It's absolutely not.

33:54 You do the best you can and you leave it at that. And sometimes school can pit people against each other again unnecessarily. It doesn't need to be like that. And you control yourself. So yes, 400 days. Can you make some serious change? Absolutely, without a doubt. But we're going to go back 400 hours builds momentum. You're training every single day for an hour. Yeah. Suddenly 400 hours of training, you're going to start to have definition. You're going to your, your body's going to change. Even if you don't want to change, can't imagine anybody not wanting to change.

34:38 But let's say you that's not your goal is to change your physique just to be a little healthier. The byproduct of it is going to be that your physique is going to change. Then we go back a little further. 400 minutes, 400 minutes in a day can change your state of who you of how you react to certain things. We all know this. If you have a bad morning, something happens in the morning. That's that can stay with you the whole day. And you refer to it ruined my day. What do you mean it's 10 AM? What do you mean it's ruined your day? You can absolutely turn that around 400 minutes later, have that joy that we've been talking about. Absolutely.

35:27 And then 400 months, 400 months, that can be a lifetime. That's why we have those milestones. That's why certain birthdays mean more than other birthdays. 50 is a milestone, 60 is a milestone, and 40 is a milestone. Same thing with marriages. Why do you think they call it a golden anniversary when you've been married for 50 years? I did find out that for 35, because I've been married for 35 years, is emerald. I like green. I have green eyes. Oh, yeah, no, I I like that. So it's, it's those things that bring us joy. And if numbering it brings you joy, I'm not going to strip you of that, absolutely not.

36:19 But if the numbering and the scorecard is bringing you down, air it up, get rid of it. You don't need it. In your work, do you see any consistency in terms of a scorecard item that men really tend to overvalue or or one that they undervalue? Appreciation, they really don't feel like they're appreciated by their partner like that That is the one that really sticks out. I feel hurt for them. I, I see how painful it is for them not to be recognized for the contribution that they make to their family.

37:02 How you mentioned about being protective and how to be the, and being the provider and, and the, the classic ways in which men and women interact with each other, that their partner doesn't acknowledge it or appreciate it. And again, that little bit of irony where the the spouse will be like, of course I appreciate that. I yeah, I do. Of course, you know, I do. And it's like, no, I don't know that you do because you don't acknowledge it. So one of the techniques that I use with my couples is that when they are social, they are not allowed to speak about themselves.

37:45 They can only speak about their spouse. So, and that's a little awkward. They find they struggle with that. But once they get the hang of it, they really like it because the spouse overhears them talking to their group of people, whatever it is, and saying, Oh my gosh, Andy just got his 400th episode and he's he's done podcasting for 10 years. Can you believe that? I'm so proud of him now, you know, overhearing that, that suddenly feels tingly and warm because you heard your spouse say that. And that's what we want. We want that recognition, outward recognition. And we also want it internally just to be able to say please and thank you.

38:36 That seems to be missing in a lot of relationships, and we have to acknowledge that. Anytime my husband gets up from the couch and he comes back with an extra glass of water for me, it's so thoughtful. I take it as thoughtful. Even if I didn't want it, if I already had a glass, whatever it might be, I still say thank you. I say thank you for thinking of me. You recognized me. Another thing that I do with my couples because I've I've heard this more often and it it makes me uncomfortable. And usually when something makes me uncomfortable, I do need to speak up for it. As I said, I've got that New York grid to me is he'll say, you know, I acknowledge her.

39:22 I I commented on, you know, that she looked really beautiful the other morning. And she'll suck her teeth, she'll roll her eyes and she goes, oh, I was in sweats and AT shirt and I had my hair in a bun and I felt awful, you know? And there he is, you know, like, wow, you look really beautiful. And she goes, I just, I heard that as I want to have sex, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, time out, time out. I look at him and I'm like, is that what you meant by the comment? Is that your like love language or something? And he's like, no, not at all. I was on my way out. I just happened to notice and I said it and I said OK. And what was her response? And he says, well, she dismissed me.

40:05 And I look at her and I'm like, yeah, no, no, because you've dismissed him. When he expressed himself something about you that prompted him to say something, you took it, twisted it, made it into something else, and then dismissed him. I said, what do you think? The likelihood of him saying something nice to you again is going to be slim to none. I said take the compliment. Take the compliment. Even if you don't feel it, take the compliment. Thank you, please and thank you.

40:50 Because the amount of times that I also hear on my couch is, you know, I'll get all dressed up and he won't even notice. He won't notice that I cut my hair. He won't, you know, he doesn't notice this. And notice is a really big word in my office from both sides. And that's what couples and individuals are looking for. They want to be noticed. They want to be seen. And then they start comparing themselves to other people that they feel like they're being seen. They, they are being seen on socials. They have, you know, 100 likes and 500 comments and blah blah blah. Isn't that the root of so many affairs that someone noticed me, someone paid attention that they they used to get from their spouse?

41:32 Exactly, exactly it is. It is the number one driver of that is just to be seen and heard again. 90 minute sessions. I have sessions with just the husband themselves. Usually I see the couple, then I see each individually to get a better understanding of what's happening, then I see them again, then I see them separately again and and that structure works really well. I do it in a 90 day container to start with just to get some movement happening, some of that clarity happening. Most of the men go over time by at least an hour, surprisingly enough. Usually the women are very good. They kind of watch the clock and 90 minutes and whatnot. And they, they, they wrap it up into a nice little bow. They do that.

42:19 I don't control that. That's their choice. But the men will speak for 2 1/2 hours. And one of them commented at the end, you know, recently this was great. Like, I, I, I don't think I've ever spoken for 2 1/2 hours. Like they don't even realize it because they have a lot to say. And we, we as partners need to hear that we do. We need to invest in our relationship. You said it perfectly. We, we tend to think that the end is actually saying I do. No, it's not. Just because you say I do the work doesn't stop. It actually accelerates.

43:02 It gets amplified. You have to continue to do the work and the reward. The reward is golden. Absolutely golden. So what's the best way for people to connect with you and learn about everything you're offering? Well, as I mentioned, my digital footprint is pretty big. I'm on all the socials, but my URL is the best. It's filled with all types of information, including the difference between marriage therapy and relationship coaching. And my URL is understanding EAR understandingear.com. So what's one thing you wish more men knew?

43:43 That they're not alone, that they, they don't have to put on the mask, as you said, they don't have to put up a front. Initially they might feel that way, but be you. Be authentically you. Don't catfish even slightly because who you're hurting the most is yourself. Look in the mirror, see yourself, acknowledge yourself, trust yourself, recognize that you are who you are and someone else is going to see you just as you are. Be authentic, as you say. I'm going to ask you one final question, if that's OK. So 400 episodes in 10 years, how are you showing up today differently than when you started? Good Lord, could be an infinite number of ways. I mean, what when I started Real men feel my goal was to do at least three episodes before I quit. Like that was my pattern.

44:45 I'll try this thing. Oh, it's tough. Oh, then it it's not for me. Things like school were so easy for me that I took the wrong lesson that what I'm really meant to do, my path, what I should be doing will be easy to do all the time. And that's not the case. And you know, to fulfill our, our Persian, Persian making up new words to fulfill our purpose and mission. It, it will hit challenges like life is like you're sure you want to do this, not to make it go away, but just to make sure you got to put the effort into it, right. You need to keep throwing away the internal scorecard, finding a new way to measure milestones. And you know, we, we mentioned about it before about only comparing yourself to yourself in the past. I think I first heard from Wayne Dyer that like the only person to compare yourself is to you in the past. I don't recognize me 10 years ago. And when I've fallen and gone backwards, there've been people like you to reach out and poke me. And you know another thing I would 10 years ago, I would have no not believed how many friends I have that began via podcasts. I often forget like, oh, my friend Vanessa. Oh wow, was she a was she a friend I had on the show or she someone on the show that became friends? You know, I get I get lost like that all the time. When I stopped talking to the world, there was one year I didn't do a single show.

46:02 So we'd be more at like episode 450 today if I'd not just turned my back on life. But you would send messages, get no response over and over. But you can still get send messages. And I read them all. I just didn't respond. And yeah, you didn't quit. I really I even then when I wouldn't say anything, I appreciated it. And I want to leave with a quote. And you're going to tell me where it's from. Are you ready? Yeah, life is ours. We live it our way. Nothing else matters. Metallica. Yep, I got 4 shows coming in October. Nice, nice. Awesome.

46:43 Yeah, when I came, I did that. I and I it made it into the show. I was like, let's try this. I was walking out of Metallica show and I tried this like shoot an intro and I said like, I hope everyone has something they love in their life as much as I love Metallica and I was in tears. I was just like, there. There's so many things in life that can give us the scorecard that matters, that overflowing with joy. That's so much of why I do this, because I want masculinity to be more synonymous with joy than it ever has been. Great goal. Absolutely, absolutely. Because it trickles out. It absolutely does. It ripples and ripples and ripples and good men, good women, good humans.

47:26 And love. I love, love. I'm I'm so into love. Absolutely Lovejoy, peace and just an opportunity to be beautiful and uniquely beautiful in your own skin. Love who you are. So thanks so much for joining us in the show. Thanks so much for being part of my life. Thanks for doing the work you do and being authentically you, Vanessa. Thank you, Andy. What I really appreciate about this conversation is the reminder that numbers by themselves don't tell the whole story. Time alone does not heal, milestones do not fulfill us, and comparison will never create peace. So to every man listening, maybe it's time to stop measuring yourself by someone else's timeline, someone else's standards, or the old story in your head that says you should be further along by now.

48:20 Maybe the better question is not how do I compare, but who am I becoming? So thank you, dear listener, for being part of real Menfield, whether this is your first episode or you've been with us for years, reaching 400 episodes in 10 years. I'm I'm deeply grateful for every guest, every listener, every opportunity, every time I can be a guest, every review, every rating it, it, it means more to me than I will ever be able to convey across in this recording. And if you're a man who is ready to drop the mask, start having honest conversations. Come join us in authentic AF at realmenfield.org/group.

49:03 And until next time, be good to yourself.